AKICIF: Czech language site?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

My daughter is going to Prague and elsewhere in Czechia for work,
for a week. Is there a website anyone can recommend where she
could learn a couple of phrases in Czech, like "Good morning" and
"Thank you" and "Where's the ladies' room?"

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> My daughter is going to Prague and elsewhere in Czechia for work,
> for a week. Is there a website anyone can recommend where she
> could learn a couple of phrases in Czech, like "Good morning" and
> "Thank you" and "Where's the ladies' room?"

https://mluvtecesky.net/ or in particular,
https://mluvtecesky.net/en/useful_phrases

Disclaimer: I was involved in creating the Slovak analog(ue).

Though, for just one week, I think it's not worth the effort.


ObSF: One of the early widespread SF stories depicting anthropoid
robots is set up in Prague.
I am, of course, talking about the Prague Golem story.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[Paul Dormer]

In article <pffoi0$1s9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk () wrote:

>
> Though, for just one week, I think it's not worth the effort.

Indeed. I visited Prague aboutr 10 years ago. I did bring a phrasebook
with me, but I can't remember using it much. It's a tourist city, much
used to people speaking English. (I have more trouble getting myself
understood in some parts of the US.)

[Gary McGath]

On 6/8/18 10:29 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> My daughter is going to Prague and elsewhere in Czechia for work,
> for a week. Is there a website anyone can recommend where she
> could learn a couple of phrases in Czech, like "Good morning" and
> "Thank you" and "Where's the ladies' room?"
>

I used the Pimsleur course before going to Prague. I learned no more
than a dozen words and expressions, but I spoke them well enough that
once I was taken for a native or at least fluent speaker.

I recommend the Museum of Communism. It's about half silly and half
serious and very enjoyable. They like to point out that it's over a
McDonald's.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

[Keith F. Lynch]

<garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote:
> ObSF: One of the early widespread SF stories depicting anthropoid
> robots is set up in Prague.

> I am, of course, talking about the Prague Golem story.

And the English word "robot" comes from the Czech word for worker, via
a 1920s Czech play.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <pfgl3u$sig$1...@dont-email.me>,

I'll pass that along.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <pffoi0$1s9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

<garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> My daughter is going to Prague and elsewhere in Czechia for work,
>> for a week. Is there a website anyone can recommend where she
>> could learn a couple of phrases in Czech, like "Good morning" and
>> "Thank you" and "Where's the ladies' room?"
>
>https://mluvtecesky.net/ or in particular,
>https://mluvtecesky.net/en/useful_phrases

Thanks!

>Disclaimer: I was involved in creating the Slovak analog(ue).

I thought you might be a useful source, since Czechia is right
next door. :)

>
>Though, for just one week, I think it's not worth the effort.

Oh, she's not going to attempt to be a fluent speaker. But various
travel writers tell us that for a monolingual (or nearly) American
to make an attempt at a few words in the local language will be
appreciated.

>ObSF: One of the early widespread SF stories depicting anthropoid
>robots is set up in Prague.
>I am, of course, talking about the Prague Golem story.

Oh, yes, Meg and I both know that story, though we're neither of
us Jewish. (She's a goth; I read the Davidson story when it
appeared in F&SF in 1955.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/06/short-story-for-weekend-golem-by-avram.html

Thanks again.

[Gary McGath]

On 6/9/18 11:02 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Though, for just one week, I think it's not worth the effort.
> Oh, she's not going to attempt to be a fluent speaker. But various
> travel writers tell us that for a monolingual (or nearly) American
> to make an attempt at a few words in the local language will be
> appreciated.
>

Based on my experience, I'll agree on that. I think just being able to
say "Hello" and "Thank you" in Czech made a difference.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Dobree den, prosim?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <pfgqu1$8pp$1...@reader1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith F.

Lynch) wrote:

>
> And the English word "robot" comes from the Czech word for worker,
> via
> a 1920s Czech play.

A recent episode of Murdoch Mysteries had Constable Crabtree
anachronistically talking about robots in 1900s Toronto.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. Lynch) wrote:
>> And the English word "robot" comes from the Czech word for worker,
>> via a 1920s Czech play.

> A recent episode of Murdoch Mysteries had Constable Crabtree
> anachronistically talking about robots in 1900s Toronto.

I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin

It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
mostly only used in the UK.)

[Cryptoengineer]

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in
news:pfk3m1$d7v$1...@reader1.panix.com:

> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. Lynch) wrote:
>>> And the English word "robot" comes from the Czech word for worker,
>>> via a 1920s Czech play.
>
>> A recent episode of Murdoch Mysteries had Constable Crabtree
>> anachronistically talking about robots in 1900s Toronto.
>
> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
> from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
> that:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>
> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
> mostly only used in the UK.)

"Pram"? Really? It's a contraction of 'perambulator', a Latin-derived
word for 'one walks about' or 'permabulates', which dates back to at
least the 1600s.

The Czech pram mean 'raft'.

pt

[Cryptoengineer]

"Kerr-Mudd,John" <nots...@invalid.org> wrote in
news:XnsA8FD6D0A26...@85.214.115.223:

Agreed. I grew up moving around Europe, and the most valuable single word
you can learn in any language is 'Thank you'. "Hello", 'Do you speak
English', and 'Where can I find a toilet?' are runners up.

pt

[Paul Dormer]

In article <XnsA8FDD8685A...@216.166.97.131>,

treif...@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:

>
> "Pram"? Really? It's a contraction of 'perambulator', a
> Latin-derived
> word for 'one walks about' or 'permabulates', which dates back to
> at least the 1600s.

Indeed, that's what I've always been taught, and Chambers says that, too.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:

> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
> from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
> that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>
> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
> mostly only used in the UK.)

Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from (German) T(h)al - valley.
The fact that the origin is located currently in Czech Republic is
irrelevant.

Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
"(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores to
convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."

My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this meaning.
Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator" one - I would
have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".

OTOH, "prám" in (contemporary) Czech means raft. Pram (the barge) is "pramice".

Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".

[Alan Woodford]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 +0000 (UTC),
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:

>Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>
>> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
>> from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
>> that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>>
>> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
>> mostly only used in the UK.)
>
>Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from (German) T(h)al - valley.
>The fact that the origin is located currently in Czech Republic is
>irrelevant.
>
>Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
>"(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores to
>convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."
>
>My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this meaning.
>Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator" one - I would
>have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".
>
>OTOH, "prám" in (contemporary) Czech means raft. Pram (the barge) is "pramice".
>
>Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".

And Pilsner, of course :-)

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman

[Tim Merrigan]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 +0000 (UTC),
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:

>Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>
>> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
>> from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
>> that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>>
>> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
>> mostly only used in the UK.)
>
>Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from (German) T(h)al - valley.
>The fact that the origin is located currently in Czech Republic is
>irrelevant.
>
>Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
>"(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores to
>convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."
>
>My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this meaning.
>Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator" one - I would
>have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".
>
>OTOH, "prám" in (contemporary) Czech means raft. Pram (the barge) is "pramice".
>
>Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".

So "robot" is third?
--

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

[Keith F. Lynch]

<garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote:
> Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from
> (German) T(h)al - valley.

Yes, that's what I had thought. "Neanderthal" also comes from that
German word -- and scientists are gradually starting to prounce it
with the correct hard "t" sound rather than a "th" (theta) sound.

> The fact that the origin is located currently in Czech Republic is
> irrelevant.

As you know, Germany, or rather the German-speaking part of Europe,
has varied widely in size and location over the centuries.

> Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
> "(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores
> to convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."

> My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this
> meaning. Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator"
> one - I would have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".

I was the other way around. I knew "pram" as the British term for
baby carriage, but didn't know it also meant a barge.

Apparently those are two different words with different origin.

Even stranger, the English words "isle" and "island" mean the same
thing but have completely different origins.

> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".

I'm sure "robot" is better known than either, in English.

There is a Prague in Oklahoma, but it's pronounced differently.
Similarly, Cairo in Illinois is pronounced differently from the Cairo
in Egypt. But then the Cairo in Egypt is pronounced differently in
French than in English, and I don't know how it's pronounced in Arabic.

I don't know any other meaning or pronunciation for "Czech." Though
I've always thought it odd that it's pronounced (at least in English)
just like "check."

[Keith F. Lynch]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> treif...@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:
>> "Pram"? Really? It's a contraction of 'perambulator', a
>> Latin-derived word for 'one walks about' or 'permabulates',
>> which dates back to at least the 1600s.

> Indeed, that's what I've always been taught, and Chambers says
> that, too.

Apparently there are two different meanings for "pram." The baby
carriage meaning comes from Latin, and the nautical meaning comes
from Czech.

[Cryptoengineer]

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in news:pfnc0d$act$1
@reader1.panix.com:

> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> treif...@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:
>>> "Pram"? Really? It's a contraction of 'perambulator', a
>>> Latin-derived word for 'one walks about' or 'permabulates', which
>>> dates back to at least the 1600s.
>
>> Indeed, that's what I've always been taught, and Chambers says that,
>> too.
>
> Apparently there are two different meanings for "pram." The baby
> carriage meaning comes from Latin, and the nautical meaning comes
> from Czech.

I'm certainly familiar with the 'small, flat-bottomed boat' meaning,
but an skeptical that it's English usage can be traced back to the Czech
word.

pt

[Cryptoengineer]

"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote in news:pfnbs7$nvt$1
@reader1.panix.com:

That's how its pronounced in American. In English, its pronounced
'cheque'.

pt

[Tim Merrigan]

If this were Calahans I'd throw peanuts at you. I may anyway.


88888888888888888888888

[Paul Dormer]

In article <XnsA8FEED7B2D...@216.166.97.131>,

treif...@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:

>
> I'm certainly familiar with the 'small, flat-bottomed boat'
> meaning, but an skeptical that it's English usage can be traced
> back to the Czech
> word.

Chambers says, Dutch, praam, of Slavic origin. Praam is given as an
alternative spelling. I wasn't familiar with that word.

[Gary McGath]

Here's what Etymology Online says. I've been skeptical about some of
their entries, so I'm not calling this proof.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pram

pram (n.)

"baby carriage," 1881, shortening of perambulator, perhaps influenced by
pram "flat-bottomed boat" especially a type used in the Baltic (1540s),
from Old Norse pramr, from Balto-Slavic (compare Polish prom, Russian
poromu "ferryboat," Czech pram "raft"), from PIE *pro-, from root *per-
(1) "forward," hence "in front of, toward, through."

[Gary McGath]

On 6/11/18 10:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> I don't know any other meaning or pronunciation for "Czech." Though
> I've always thought it odd that it's pronounced (at least in English)
> just like "check."

When I was in Prague, I stayed at a hotel called the "Czech Inn."

[pete...@gmail.com]

I could easily believe that the English 'pram = boat' meaning comes via Old
Norse, brought in by invasion, but I suspect, absent other evidence, that the
Czech word shares a common origin with, but is not ancestral to, the English
pram (boat).

'Perambulator -> pram' is an easy transition.

pt

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 GMT,
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:

> Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>
>> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English
>> borrowed from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page
>> that answers that:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>>
>> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
>> mostly only used in the UK.)
>
> Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from
> (German) T(h)al - valley. The fact that the origin is located
> currently in Czech Republic is irrelevant.
>
> Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
> "(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores
> to convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."
>
> My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this meaning.
> Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator" one - I would
> have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".
>
> OTOH, "prám" in (contemporary) Czech means raft. Pram (the barge) is
> "pramice".
>
> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".
>

"Budweiser" pshurely?

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

That's German (hint: "w" and "ei"). The Czech name is Budvar, or even,
less trademark-ely, Českobudějovické pivo (or pivovar for the brewery
etc.)

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 13:18:54 GMT, garabik-news-2005-05
@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:

> Kerr-Mudd,John <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 GMT,
>> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>>> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".
>>>
>>
>> "Budweiser" pshurely?
>
> That's German (hint: "w" and "ei"). The Czech name is Budvar, or even,
> less trademark-ely, Českobudějovické pivo (or pivovar for the
brewery
> etc.)
>

We Brits do Irony better than you! - I decided against a smiley when
posting. Oh, alright then :-)

P.S. Last night I had a bottle of Samson.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <pfnc0d$act$1...@reader1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith F.

Lynch) wrote:

>
> Apparently there are two different meanings for "pram." The baby
> carriage meaning comes from Latin, and the nautical meaning comes
> from Czech.

Incidentally, on the matter of pram meaning a baby carriage, this week
Ben Yagoda, in his Not One-off Britishisms blog

https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/

considers the phrase "go wobbly" as a possible Britishism finding
currency in the US. In the comments someone mentions another Britishism,
"throw a wobbly" meaning throw a tantrum. Someone then asked if the
similar "throw one's toys out of the pram" was used in the US. Yagoda
responded that they don't have prams.

[pete...@gmail.com]

We have "baby carriages", "baby buggies", and "strollers". The last is used for
transports that put the kid in a seat, facing forwards. The two first are more
often used for the classic 'box in which a baby lies, on wheels, usually with
a sunshade'.

pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <memo.2018061...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,

No. We do have baby carriages sometimes (they're a form of
conspicuous consumption, since they cost a bundle), but mostly we
have strollers.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:02:38 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

UkE: stroller==push-chairs, I think.


to come: Baby 4x4's? drone-assisted toddler-minding?

[Tim Merrigan]

I thought a wobbly was a kind of pitch (bowl?) in cricket, and that
the other uses would have derived from that.

I don't think I've ever heard any variations of "throw one's toys from
the pram," except maybe literally, "Baby threw her toys from her
stroller," but not as a euphemisms for a fit of anger. Mostly I've
heard, in that context, "throw a tantrum".

[Tim Merrigan]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:02:38 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

And car seats that can be moved from one conveyance to another,
including a frame with wheels that functions as a stroller.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 2:14:17 PM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:02:38 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
>
> > In article <memo.2018061...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
> > Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> >>In article <pfnc0d$act$1...@reader1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith
> F.
> >>Lynch) wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Apparently there are two different meanings for "pram." The baby
> >>> carriage meaning comes from Latin, and the nautical meaning comes
> >>> from Czech.
> >>
> >>Incidentally, on the matter of pram meaning a baby carriage, this week
> >>Ben Yagoda, in his Not One-off Britishisms blog
> >>
> >>https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/
> >>
> >>considers the phrase "go wobbly" as a possible Britishism finding
> >>currency in the US. In the comments someone mentions another
> Britishism,
> >>"throw a wobbly" meaning throw a tantrum. Someone then asked if the
> >>similar "throw one's toys out of the pram" was used in the US. Yagoda
> >>responded that they don't have prams.
> >
> > No. We do have baby carriages sometimes (they're a form of
> > conspicuous consumption, since they cost a bundle), but mostly we
> > have strollers.
> >
>

Lives there a USAian of a certain age who wasn't taunted so:

Johnny & Mary, sittin' inna tree.
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
First comes love, then comes marriage.
Then comes Johnny with a baby carriage!

If we didn't have baby carriages, would the kids understand it?
The order of events is often juggled a bit, these last few decades.

> UkE: stroller==push-chairs, I think.

You also use the uglly and unnecessary "pushbike."

If it has no motor than the rider, it is a bicycle.
Motorbicycles {motorbikes or motorcycles} have motor
right in their name, to distinguish them from the original.
Bicycles aren't "pushed." One rotates a large gear, the sprocket,
that moves the chain that transfers power to the rear sprocket
and axle. Or, you could have a shaft-driven bike.*

Other velocipedes, such as a dandy-horse, come to mind when
one says "push bike" here in the States.

> to come: Baby 4x4's?

Children are sometimes given scale-model Jeeps, etc, to
pedal around in, or even motor around in. Those latter
tend to be electrics.

> drone-assisted toddler-minding?

Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed
in and around the house. What good they'll do
when Junior sticks his head in the toilet and you
are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't
know.

Kevin R

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle

[Tim Merrigan]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

"In a" rather than "with a" and it could be either the boy or the
girl.

>
>If we didn't have baby carriages, would the kids understand it?
>The order of events is often juggled a bit, these last few decades.
>
>> UkE: stroller==push-chairs, I think.
>
>You also use the uglly and unnecessary "pushbike."
>
>If it has no motor than the rider, it is a bicycle.
>Motorbicycles {motorbikes or motorcycles} have motor
>right in their name, to distinguish them from the original.
>Bicycles aren't "pushed." One rotates a large gear, the sprocket,
>that moves the chain that transfers power to the rear sprocket
>and axle. Or, you could have a shaft-driven bike.*
>
>Other velocipedes, such as a dandy-horse, come to mind when
>one says "push bike" here in the States.
>
>> to come: Baby 4x4's?
>
>Children are sometimes given scale-model Jeeps, etc, to
>pedal around in, or even motor around in. Those latter
>tend to be electrics.
>
>> drone-assisted toddler-minding?
>
>Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed
>in and around the house. What good they'll do
>when Junior sticks his head in the toilet and you
>are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't
>know.
>
>Kevin R
>
>* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 4:47:32 PM UTC-4, Tim Merrigan wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:

> >Lives there a USAian of a certain age who wasn't taunted so:
> >
> >Johnny & Mary, sittin' inna tree.
> >K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
> >First comes love, then comes marriage.
> >Then comes Johnny with a baby carriage!
>
> "In a" rather than "with a" and it could be either the boy or the
> girl.

According to the mores of the schoolyard, circa 1965, the traditional chant would have been "here comes Mary with a baby carriage." It was crueler,
at the time, to suggest that the girl (wife) had made the boy (husband)
take the whelp for a stroll, suggesting he was dubya aitch eye double pee
WHIPPED!

Nowadays its just avoiding traditional gender norms, even if
it supports a patriarchal institution like marriage. :)

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <f726684c-b2cd-4d28...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>Lives there a USAian of a certain age who wasn't taunted so:
>
>Johnny & Mary, sittin' inna tree.
>K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
>First comes love, then comes marriage.
>Then comes Johnny with a baby carriage!

It would've been Mary with the baby carriage, and "of a certain
age" is the vital clue. When I was eight or so (and I'm 76) and
the baby boom was on, filling my environment with toddlers, the
baby carriage was standard equipment. The strollers in which the
toddler sat up, and which folded like umbrellas by the time I was
using them for my toddlers in the 1970s, hadn't been invented in
the late 40s/early 50s.

>
>If we didn't have baby carriages, would the kids understand it?
>The order of events is often juggled a bit, these last few decades.

The next question is, do kids know or use that rhyme any more?
>
>> UkE: stroller==push-chairs, I think.

I was under the impression that "push-chair" meant a wheelchair,
pushed by an attendant. But mose of my UkE is from the first
half of the twentieth century, from classic murder mysteries and
the like.

>
>Children are sometimes given scale-model Jeeps, etc, to
>pedal around in, or even motor around in. Those latter
>tend to be electrics.

When my grandson was born his other grandmother wanted like mad
to get him a miniature car. My daughter kept saying No, and
the other grandmother kept saying Yes, and finally I got her off
in a corner of the mega-toystore and explained that in the small
house the five of us were living in, there wasn't *room* for the
thing and she reluctantly agreed not to get it.

This, before the kid was even crawling.

>
>> drone-assisted toddler-minding?
>
>Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed
>in and around the house. What good they'll do
>when Junior sticks his head in the toilet and you
>are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't
>know.

You *do not* go down to the corner store leaving Junior to roam
around the house by himself. Never. Ever. Even if nothing
happens to him, if somebody finds out they'll tell the cops
and/or Child Protective Services and you will be in so much
trouble you'll wish neither you nor the kid had ever been born.

You put him in the folding stroller and take him to the store
with you. If you have two toddlers, or a toddler and an infant,
as I had, you get a double-seated stroller.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <0c458f0e-c98e-4895...@googlegroups.com>,

I have a copy of a book called _The Officer's Guide,_ published
in like 1943 for men who had just gone through the 90-day Officer
Training School without having had any other military experience.
It contains the sentence, "It is inappropriate to the dignity of
an officer to be seen pushing a baby carriage."

My father was a pilot cadet instructor during the war. I don't
know if he made use of _The Officer's Guide_, and I don't know if
he ever pushed a baby carriage. I do have a picture of the two
of us walking together down the sidewalk, him in uniform and me
at maybe age two.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 7:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <f726684c-b2cd-4d28...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >Lives there a USAian of a certain age who wasn't taunted so:
> >
> >Johnny & Mary, sittin' inna tree.
> >K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
> >First comes love, then comes marriage.
> >Then comes Johnny with a baby carriage!
>
> It would've been Mary with the baby carriage, and "of a certain
> age" is the vital clue.

See my other post on the variation.

> When I was eight or so (and I'm 76) and
> the baby boom was on, filling my environment with toddlers, the
> baby carriage was standard equipment. The strollers in which the
> toddler sat up, and which folded like umbrellas by the time I was
> using them for my toddlers in the 1970s, hadn't been invented in
> the late 40s/early 50s.
> >
> >If we didn't have baby carriages, would the kids understand it?
> >The order of events is often juggled a bit, these last few decades.
>
> The next question is, do kids know or use that rhyme any more?
> >

I couldn't tell you, not frequenting the schoolyard or
playground for many years. I wouldn't be surprised if
"That J-dog is a playa!" would be the modern response. :)

> >> UkE: stroller==push-chairs, I think.
>
> I was under the impression that "push-chair" meant a wheelchair,
> pushed by an attendant. But mose of my UkE is from the first
> half of the twentieth century, from classic murder mysteries and
> the like.
> >
> >Children are sometimes given scale-model Jeeps, etc, to
> >pedal around in, or even motor around in. Those latter
> >tend to be electrics.
>
> When my grandson was born his other grandmother wanted like mad
> to get him a miniature car. My daughter kept saying No, and
> the other grandmother kept saying Yes, and finally I got her off
> in a corner of the mega-toystore and explained that in the small
> house the five of us were living in, there wasn't *room* for the
> thing and she reluctantly agreed not to get it.
>

Among my 8 siblings and myself, who lied for quite some time
in an early 20th century 3-story house with a long, concrete
driveway, perfect for riding our bicycles, tricycles and scooters,'
we had 1 toy car, that looked like a fire engine. A kindergarten-
age child who had yet to master the bicycle could sit in it and pedal
down the drive and back, happily and safely. Taking it into the
house proper would have been unthinkable. We didn't even store those
inside. The house had a derelict outbuilding, perhaps old servants
quarters and summer kitchen, and the two rooms that were still safe
to use were our "garage" for all our bikes and a treasure house of
bats, rackets, mallets, mitts, helmets and other protective gear,
skates both roller and ice, nets and balls of every description.
When your Dad is a coach and local school athletic director, the
equipment accumulated over the years could be impressive. "The
playhouse" was finally torn down when we got older, and the folks
got ready to put the house on the market. Bikes had to find a place
in the basement, or the toolshed attached to the real garage for
the family car.

> This, before the kid was even crawling.

There's a rookie mistake. If he wouldn't be able to drive
it for a few years, imagine the depreciation just taking it
home from the store! And what if the model went out of style
in the interim!

> >> drone-assisted toddler-minding?
> >
> >Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed
> >in and around the house. What good they'll do
> >when Junior sticks his head in the toilet and you
> >are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't
> >know.
>
> You *do not* go down to the corner store leaving Junior to roam
> around the house by himself. Never. Ever. Even if nothing
> happens to him, if somebody finds out they'll tell the cops
> and/or Child Protective Services and you will be in so much
> trouble you'll wish neither you nor the kid had ever been born.
>

Well, of course not. That doesn't mean some damphule won't try it.

> You put him in the folding stroller and take him to the store
> with you. If you have two toddlers, or a toddler and an infant,
> as I had, you get a double-seated stroller.
>

You do what my Mom or Dad did: designate the Older Children to watch
the younger children, once they are of an age that they actually get
paid by other Moms in the neighborhood to babysit. My Dad would
give me pocket change to ride my bike 6 blocks to pick up the Saturday
newspapers, while he watched the rest of us. I got to keep a nickel,
which went towards financing a comic book, once I had saved up 12 cents,
and I hadn't spent it on a pack of baseball cards or on candy. As
an athlete who taught health in the public schools, it should go
without saying that he didn't smoke, but I'll say it, because too
many of the coaches and other teachers did. He never had to "run
down to the corner for cigarettes."

Being the 5th child of 9, I have heard scary tales from my late mother
of when she had Five Children In Diapers at once: me, my 14-month younger sister, the twins 13 mos younger than her, and my newborn baby sister.
As the oldest child was but 7, letting him mind us was not on. She
could not get away from the house unless my Dad was there, or some friend,
relative or Hired Child Wrangler gave her some surcease. Once the last
of us was in school she must have heaved a huge sigh of relief.

I am not 100% sure, but I think my Mom had a TRIPLE stroller or
baby carriage for my youngest sister and the twins. Or it was a huge
carriage meant for two she got all 3 in. The twins were preemies and
started out on the small side. My brother from that pair is now the
tallest of us.

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

Up until fairly recently, US Navy personnel in uniform were
forbidden to use umbrellas. I suppose if you are carrying
an umbrella, and anything else, it would make it hard to snap
a salute.

This article refers to "unmanliness."

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/11/us/real-men-may-use-umbrellas-in-navy.html

Sailors still can't use them with certain uniforms, and they
have to be a particular color - black, I believe. {Why not
navy blue to match the uniform? Because it wouldn't match
exactly?}

> My father was a pilot cadet instructor during the war. I don't
> know if he made use of _The Officer's Guide_, and I don't know if
> he ever pushed a baby carriage. I do have a picture of the two
> of us walking together down the sidewalk, him in uniform and me
> at maybe age two.

My Dad was in Australia and New Guinea with the US Army Corps of
Engineers, building airstrips. I can see where a brolly would have
come in handy there, against sun or monsoons. Wouldn't stop slugs
from a Zero's cannon, though.

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <f43f4eb9-9ecb-4976...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 7:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>> You *do not* go down to the corner store leaving Junior to roam
>> around the house by himself. Never. Ever. Even if nothing
>> happens to him, if somebody finds out they'll tell the cops
>> and/or Child Protective Services and you will be in so much
>> trouble you'll wish neither you nor the kid had ever been born.
>>
>
>Well, of course not. That doesn't mean some damphule won't try it.
>
>> You put him in the folding stroller and take him to the store
>> with you. If you have two toddlers, or a toddler and an infant,
>> as I had, you get a double-seated stroller.
>
>You do what my Mom or Dad did: designate the Older Children to watch
>the younger children, once they are of an age that they actually get
>paid by other Moms in the neighborhood to babysit.

Yes, if you have older children capable of doing that. Mine were
within fourteen months of each other.

>My Dad would
>give me pocket change to ride my bike 6 blocks to pick up the Saturday
>newspapers, while he watched the rest of us. I got to keep a nickel,
>which went towards financing a comic book, once I had saved up 12 cents,
>and I hadn't spent it on a pack of baseball cards or on candy.

Ah. When I was eight, we lived in a massive graduate-student
housing project, covering many blocks, that had been a military
hospital during the war, and later turned into Xerox PARC. I was
given a dime every Saturday, and there was a place in the
shopping area where you could go to see very old cartoons for
nine cents. This left a penny to buy one piece of candy.

>As
>an athlete who taught health in the public schools, it should go
>without saying that he didn't smoke, but I'll say it, because too
>many of the coaches and other teachers did. He never had to "run
>down to the corner for cigarettes."

Good for him.

>Being the 5th child of 9, I have heard scary tales from my late mother
>of when she had Five Children In Diapers at once: me, my 14-month
>younger sister, the twins 13 mos younger than her, and my newborn baby
>sister.

Good Lord. Please tell me she had a washing machine!

>As the oldest child was but 7, letting him mind us was not on. She
>could not get away from the house unless my Dad was there, or some friend,
>relative or Hired Child Wrangler gave her some surcease. Once the last
>of us was in school she must have heaved a huge sigh of relief.
>
>I am not 100% sure, but I think my Mom had a TRIPLE stroller or
>baby carriage for my youngest sister and the twins. Or it was a huge
>carriage meant for two she got all 3 in. The twins were preemies and
>started out on the small side. My brother from that pair is now the
>tallest of us.

Wow. Huge family, by current standards. I was an only child.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <49220b3a-ab6f-47e8...@googlegroups.com>,

I wish I had a cite (and a better memory) for this, but ISTR that
wristwatches were issued to British Army officers during WWI --
on the grounds, I suppose, that a wristwatch could be looked at
more quickly than a pocket watch. And they were considered
"unmanly," and men would taunt each other with "Be good, or I'll
slap you on the wristwatch!"

Random things that one picks up over the years.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> You *do not* go down to the corner store leaving Junior to roam
> around the house by himself. Never. Ever. Even if nothing happens
> to him, if somebody finds out they'll tell the cops and/or Child
> Protective Services and you will be in so much trouble you'll wish
> neither you nor the kid had ever been born.

I was often left on my own, even at the youngest ages I can remember.
It was my impression that helicopter parenting, except as a rare
eccentricity, was unheard of until the 1980s, when missing children
on milk cartons gave the false impression that there were kidnappers
lurking behind every tree, just waiting for parents to take their eyes
of their child for a moment.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> You also use the uglly and unnecessary "pushbike." If it has no
> motor than the rider, it is a bicycle. Motorbicycles {motorbikes
> or motorcycles} have motor right in their name, to distinguish them
> from the original. Bicycles aren't "pushed." One rotates a large
> gear, the sprocket, that moves the chain that transfers power to the
> rear sprocket and axle. Or, you could have a shaft-driven bike.*

> Other velocipedes, such as a dandy-horse, come to mind when one says
> "push bike" here in the States.

I agree. But language often doesn't make sense. Even in the US,
"biker" usually means a motorcycle rider. (If it has no motor, its
rider is a "cyclist.")

> Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed in and around the
> house. What good they'll do when Junior sticks his head in the toilet
> and you are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't know.

If the cameras make recordings, they'll be legal evidence that you
were only guilty of neglect, not of murder.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I thought a wobbly was a kind of pitch (bowl?) in cricket, and that
> the other uses would have derived from that.

In the US, a Wobbly is a member of the International Workers of the
World (IWW). (Yes, that organization still exists.)

> I don't think I've ever heard any variations of "throw one's toys
> from the pram," except maybe literally, "Baby threw her toys from
> her stroller," but not as a euphemisms for a fit of anger. Mostly
> I've heard, in that context, "throw a tantrum".

You obviously don't read Charlie Stross's blog:

Because the Sony reader isn't available here, it's possible that if
Ace were to have a snit and throw their toys out of the pram they
might be able to convince a court that a UK edition for the Sony
reader was a sign of bad-faith intent to violate their rights to
publish the book in the USA.

. . .

I used up my "author throws toys out of pram, objects to cover"
Brownie points on HALTING STATE (they were going to do something
truly ... disturbing) so when they shoved the purple-haired
cheesecake my way my protests fell on deaf ears.

. . .

When a committee's just signed off on getting a Pixar animator to
spend a month building a 3D model and settled on a cheesecake pose,
they ain't gonna budge. (Especially as I threw my toys out of the
pram a year earlier, over a botched cover prep for the US edition of
"Halting State".)

. . .

(I will confess I threw my toys out of the pram and used up all my
hoarded "author objects to cover" tokens in one go, thus leaving me
out of ammo when it was time to blow a gasket over SATURN'S CHILDREN.)

. . .

That's rather glossing over the electoral calculus: "if I throw my
toys out of the pram, and the result is a vote of no confidence and
this goes on to trigger an eletion, then what is the likely outcome
for my party?"

. . .

And I really don't expect Ace's marketing people to throw their toys
out of the pram over TJM either -- it's not a first edition or a
major launch, and there's no prospect of a bestseller list push on
any of my next couple of books.

. . .

NB: In a spirit of full disclosure, I have occasionally thrown my
toys out of the pram over cover art. The worst three:

. . .

3) The Czech cover of "The Family Trade". I'm told half the
bookstores in Prague misfiled it under "romance". (As I mentioned
earlier, authors going ballistic over their book covers is
understood. When their agent joins in, publishers take it more
seriously. We got the subsequent covers changed.)

. . .

Halting State. The original cover had a London skyline and a
Scotland Yard logo, despite the novel being set in, er, Scotland
(about 400 miles away, in a different country). I threw my toys out
of the pram and they swapped in the silhouette of the Walter Scott
Monument and and L&B badge.

I've never heard that expression anywhere else.

Coincidentally, given the subject line, note that he mentions a cover
of the Czech version of one of his novels.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 10:47:08 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> > You also use the ugly and unnecessary "pushbike." If it has no other

> > motor than the rider, it is a bicycle. Motorbicycles {motorbikes
> > or motorcycles} have motor right in their name, to distinguish them
> > from the original. Bicycles aren't "pushed." One rotates a large
> > gear, the sprocket, that moves the chain that transfers power to the
> > rear sprocket and axle. Or, you could have a shaft-driven bike.*
>
> > Other velocipedes, such as a dandy-horse, come to mind when one says
> > "push bike" here in the States.
>
> I agree. But language often doesn't make sense. Even in the US,
> "biker" usually means a motorcycle rider. (If it has no motor, its
> rider is a "cyclist.")
>

It's trickier than that. For many "biker" means "outlaw motorcyclist,"
a member of a motorcycle club such as the Hell's Angels or the Outlaws,
or someone aping that style of dress and attitude, even if only a
"wannabe." A law-abiding motorcyclist who may or may not belong to
a club is a "rider."

I believe in Australia, they call the rowdy fellows on motorized
2-wheelers "bikies," which is TCFW, to US ears.

When I was in grammar school, and they called over the loudspeakers
for those who walked to school or rode their bikes to file out into the
parking lot and start on their way home, we were "walkers and bikers."
Since we didn't have to wait for a bus to arrive, we were always dismissed
first. [Catholic school. Dismissal was to be orderly!]

> > Somebody will try it, that or "baby-cams" placed in and around the
> > house. What good they'll do when Junior sticks his head in the toilet
> > and you are down at the corner store buying snacks, I don't know.
>
> If the cameras make recordings, they'll be legal evidence that you
> were only guilty of neglect, not of murder.

Criminal negligence for letting the child drown, and then arguing that
you created an "attractive nuisance" by not putting the toilet seat
down and not locking the bathroom! Push for manslaughter!

Kevin R

[Tim Merrigan]

What has any of that to do with throwing one's toys from the pram, not
being an AMERICAN idiom? As far as I can tell all of your citations
above are British.

[Kevrob]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 8:15:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <f43f4eb9-9ecb-4976...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> >On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 7:00:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

[snip]

> >You do what my Mom or Dad did: designate the Older Children to watch
> >the younger children, once they are of an age that they actually get
> >paid by other Moms in the neighborhood to babysit.
>
> Yes, if you have older children capable of doing that. Mine were
> within fourteen months of each other.
>
> >My Dad would
> >give me pocket change to ride my bike 6 blocks to pick up the Saturday
> >newspapers, while he watched the rest of us. I got to keep a nickel,
> >which went towards financing a comic book, once I had saved up 12 cents,
> >and I hadn't spent it on a pack of baseball cards or on candy.
>
> Ah. When I was eight, we lived in a massive graduate-student
> housing project, covering many blocks, that had been a military
> hospital during the war, and later turned into Xerox PARC. I was
> given a dime every Saturday, and there was a place in the
> shopping area where you could go to see very old cartoons for
> nine cents. This left a penny to buy one piece of candy.
>

I remember penny candy, just. My parents who came of age during
the Depression and WWII regaled us of stories of multiple pieces
of candy for a penny and absolute hauls for a nickel.

> >As
> >an athlete who taught health in the public schools, it should go
> >without saying that he didn't smoke, but I'll say it, because too
> >many of the coaches and other teachers did. He never had to "run
> >down to the corner for cigarettes."
>
> Good for him.
>
> >Being the 5th child of 9, I have heard scary tales from my late mother
> >of when she had Five Children In Diapers at once: me, my 14-month
> >younger sister, the twins 13 mos younger than her, and my newborn baby
> >sister.
>
> Good Lord. Please tell me she had a washing machine!
>

Yes. And my father knew how to use it. Mom also used a diaper
service at times probably, during the "5 children in diapers"
period.

>
> Wow. Huge family, by current standards. I was an only child.

One of my Dad's sisters had 10 kids. A neighbor in the same year
at my school was one of 12. All Irish Catholics, if you couldn't
tell!

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <578fa067-4807-4515...@googlegroups.com>,

Heh. I was thinking either that or Mormons.

I'm Catholic myself, but Hal isn't.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <57ee7473-5239-4f86...@googlegroups.com>,

My kids never tried to get into the toilet ... I'm speaking of
the time before they learned to use it for its intended purpose.
We did have to put signs up when we had guests, asking them
please to put the toilet lid down ... because the cats had the
habit of jumpig up onto the toilet seat and thence onto the
washbasin counter, and if the lid was up .....

[Paul Dormer]

In article <591cece4-74ca-4c90...@googlegroups.com>,

pete...@gmail.com () wrote:

>
>
> We have "baby carriages", "baby buggies", and "strollers". The last is
> used for transports that put the kid in a seat, facing forwards. The
> two first are more often used for the classic 'box in which a baby
> lies, on wheels, usually with a sunshade'.
>

Although, just last night, I was re-reading Tom Disch's The Brave Little
Toaster and at one point, the appliances are in a junk yard and discover
what is described as "a large vinyl perambulator, which is another word
for a pram, which is also known, in the appliances' part of the world, as
a baby buggy."

This was a story by an American author, for an American magazine,
obviously set in America, so quite why he used the UK word, I don't know.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <pAADE...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J

Heydt) wrote:

>
> I wish I had a cite (and a better memory) for this, but ISTR that
> wristwatches were issued to British Army officers during WWI --
> on the grounds, I suppose, that a wristwatch could be looked at
> more quickly than a pocket watch

My memory says it was the Boer War, but it's a very old memory and may be
suspect.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <pfsn2v$ff2$1...@reader1.panix.com>, k...@KeithLynch.net (Keith F.

Lynch) wrote:

>
> In the US, a Wobbly is a member of the International Workers of the
> World (IWW). (Yes, that organization still exists.)

Indeed, that was actually mentioned in the blog, including a supposed
derivation.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <q0t2idth661i7vo51...@4ax.com>, tp...@ca.rr.com

(Tim Merrigan) wrote:

>
> I thought a wobbly was a kind of pitch (bowl?) in cricket, and that
> the other uses would have derived from that.

I've not found any connection to cricket, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Incidentally, the term you were searching for is either "ball" or
"delivery". (And, as the bowler runs up to the bowling crease before
bowling, if they step over the crease before releasing the ball, it's
called a no ball, and is an automatic run for the other side.)

[Andy Leighton]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:51:25 -0700, Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I thought a wobbly was a kind of pitch (bowl?) in cricket, and that
> the other uses would have derived from that.

No not really. Certainly it isn't a traditional name for a type of
delivery. There is something called a wobble seam ball in cricket
now, but that term is relatively recent (the past 20 years). Wobbly
goes back ages. "Throw a wobbly" meaning a fit of temper or anger
predates wobble-seam.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

[Keith F. Lynch]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> Although, just last night, I was re-reading Tom Disch's The Brave
> Little Toaster and at one point, the appliances are in a junk yard
> and discover what is described as "a large vinyl perambulator, which
> is another word for a pram, which is also known, in the appliances'
> part of the world, as a baby buggy."

> This was a story by an American author, for an American magazine,
> obviously set in America, so quite why he used the UK word, I
> don't know.

Perhaps he read lots of British books. For the same reason,
Britishisms occasionally creep into my writing.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> We did have to put signs up when we had guests, asking them please
> to put the toilet lid down ... because the cats had the habit of
> jumpig up onto the toilet seat and thence onto the washbasin
> counter, and if the lid was up .....

What's the big deal? It's a mistake each cat would only make once.
It's not as if there was any risk of any real damage to either the cat
or the toilet.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> One of my Dad's sisters had 10 kids. A neighbor in the same year at
> my school was one of 12. All Irish Catholics, if you couldn't tell!

It's puzzling why any Catholic couple wouldn't have a dozen kids.
I might almost suspect that they may be breaking the rules of their
religion.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I don't think I've ever heard any variations of "throw one's toys
>>> from the pram," except maybe literally, "Baby threw her toys from
>>> her stroller," but not as a euphemisms for a fit of anger. Mostly
>>> I've heard, in that context, "throw a tantrum".

>> You obviously don't read Charlie Stross's blog: ....

> What has any of that to do with throwing one's toys from the pram,
> not being an AMERICAN idiom? As far as I can tell all of your
> citations above are British.

You didn't say your were restricting it to American idioms. I can't
read your mind.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Criminal negligence for letting the child drown, and then arguing
> that you created an "attractive nuisance" by not putting the toilet
> seat down and not locking the bathroom! Push for manslaughter!

The parents could argue that they wanted to make it easy for the child
to hide in the toilet, in case molesters, kidnappers, or mass shooters
were to break in. You can never be too safe.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> We do have baby carriages sometimes (they're a form of conspicuous
> consumption, since they cost a bundle), but mostly we have strollers.

I always thought those were different words for the same thing.

But then I think the same about "brownstone," "rowhouse," "townhouse,"
and "luxury townhome," so what do I know?

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Kerr-Mudd,John <nots...@invalid.org> wrote:

> We Brits do Irony better than you! - I decided against a smiley when
> posting. Oh, alright then :-)

Nah, it's just my underdeveloped personal irony detector :-)

ObSF: Lieutenant Commander Data and many, many other similar
protagonists taking everything too literally[*].

[*] in the traditional meaning of "literally"

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[Tim Merrigan]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 02:32:13 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Criminal negligence for letting the child drown, and then arguing
>> that you created an "attractive nuisance" by not putting the toilet
>> seat down and not locking the bathroom! Push for manslaughter!
>
>The parents could argue that they wanted to make it easy for the child
>to hide in the toilet, in case molesters, kidnappers, or mass shooters
>were to break in. You can never be too safe.

One question regarding this whole thread (or sub-thread). Is kids
sticking their heads in toilets really a thing? Kids sticking their
heads between balusters, yeah. Kids sticking other kids heads in
toilets, yeah. But kids sticking their own heads in toilets, that
I've never heard of before this thread. Also, kids drown all the
time, generally in bathtubs or swimming pools, and often, at least
partially, due to parental neglect. But I've never heard of a kid
drowning in a toilet.

[Tim Merrigan]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 02:28:02 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"

<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't think I've ever heard any variations of "throw one's toys
>>>> from the pram," except maybe literally, "Baby threw her toys from
>>>> her stroller," but not as a euphemisms for a fit of anger. Mostly
>>>> I've heard, in that context, "throw a tantrum".
>
>>> You obviously don't read Charlie Stross's blog: ....
>
>> What has any of that to do with throwing one's toys from the pram,
>> not being an AMERICAN idiom? As far as I can tell all of your
>> citations above are British.
>
>You didn't say your were restricting it to American idioms. I can't
>read your mind.

I made reference to my own experience, "I don't think I've ever
heard". I've lived my whole life in California, which has come up
here before, mostly in other discussions of differences between
British and American English.

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
>One question regarding this whole thread (or sub-thread). Is kids
>sticking their heads in toilets really a thing? Kids sticking their
>heads between balusters, yeah. Kids sticking other kids heads in
>toilets, yeah. But kids sticking their own heads in toilets, that
>I've never heard of before this thread. Also, kids drown all the
>time, generally in bathtubs or swimming pools, and often, at least
>partially, due to parental neglect. But I've never heard of a kid
>drowning in a toilet.

Agreed. The way kids get killed in toilets is when the monsters come
up out of the drain and eat them.

Children bring back pet snakes and when they get too big, they flush them
down the toilet and they stay down there just getting bigger and bigger.
Now the sewer system is full of fifty-foot anacondas just waiting.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 10:20:27 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > One of my Dad's sisters had 10 kids. A neighbor in the same year at
> > my school was one of 12. All Irish Catholics, if you couldn't tell!
>
> It's puzzling why any Catholic couple wouldn't have a dozen kids.
> I might almost suspect that they may be breaking the rules of their
> religion.
> --

There is something called "natural family planning," though I
understand it has a much lower success rate at spacing pregnancies
out as the technologically-oriented version.

Before birth control tech became common, Catholic couples were
sometimes counseled to live "like brother and sister" if another
pregnancy would be dangerous for the wife to undergo. Celibate
priests advising adults used to having sex to give it up may have
worked when there was no practical alternative. Once dependable
methods became available, being told you couldn't use them because
ghod said so was not going to be popular. Using the Pill in certain
medically advised situations isn't even against Catholic doctrine:

[quote]

As for the Pill, its use as a direct contraceptive cannot be
accepted, Pius XII states. However, when taken under doctor's
orders as a remedy for a malady or malfunction of the body or
of the organism, its use can be justified under two-fold effect.
A wife need not, under these conditions, refrain from syngamy*
with her husband, Pius XII asserts.

[/quote] - AJ de Bethune, "Paul VI's "Transmission of Human Life":
A Deeper Rereading p 67, 2002

https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=2284&context=lnq

Kevin R

* There's a word!

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/syngamy

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 10:35:43 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > We do have baby carriages sometimes (they're a form of conspicuous
> > consumption, since they cost a bundle), but mostly we have strollers.
>
> I always thought those were different words for the same thing.
>
> But then I think the same about "brownstone," "rowhouse," "townhouse,"
> and "luxury townhome," so what do I know?

A rowhouse was something popular in Baltimore, and you didn't have
to be wealthy to live in one. UKish would be "terraced house."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_house

I learned about rowhouses reading a children's biography of Babe Ruth
when I was a lad. The Bambino was born in one.

The wiki link suggests the different names all describe pretty
much the same thing, though I expect some descriptors attach
to more upmarket versions.

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

That's certainly another danger regarding toilets. What else
explains the alligators in the NYC sewers?

But:

[quote]

Toilets

Toilets can be overlooked as a drowning hazard in the home. The
typical scenario involves a child under 3-years-old falling headfirst
into the toilet. CPSC has received reports of 16 children under age 5
who drowned in toilets between 1996 and 1999.

.....

Keep the toilet lid down to prevent access to the water and consider
using a toilet clip to stop young children from opening the lids.
Consider placing a latch on the bathroom door out of reach of
young children.

[/quote] Consumer Products Safety Commission of the US government.

{Not necessarily a reliable source...}

https://www.cpsc.gov/content/cpsc-warns-pools-are-not-the-only-drowning-danger-at-home-for-kids-data-show-other-hazards

So, the professional worriers do worry about this.

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <pg0dh6$kn7$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>One question regarding this whole thread (or sub-thread). Is kids
>>sticking their heads in toilets really a thing? Kids sticking their
>>heads between balusters, yeah. Kids sticking other kids heads in
>>toilets, yeah. But kids sticking their own heads in toilets, that
>>I've never heard of before this thread. Also, kids drown all the
>>time, generally in bathtubs or swimming pools, and often, at least
>>partially, due to parental neglect. But I've never heard of a kid
>>drowning in a toilet.
>
>Agreed. The way kids get killed in toilets is when the monsters come
>up out of the drain and eat them.

There was a clip on the news yesterday about a man who found a
large snake crawling out of his toilet. He called the cops and
the police officer (female) cheerfully pulled the snake, about
six feet long and non-poisonous, out and got its picture taken.

>Children bring back pet snakes and when they get too big, they flush them
>down the toilet and they stay down there just getting bigger and bigger.
>Now the sewer system is full of fifty-foot anacondas just waiting.

No, no, that's alligators in the New York sewers and anyway it's
an urban legend. We did get a rat in our toilet once, who had
gotten in because the sewer pipe had broken sometime in the past.
I flushed him down again and that was the last we saw of him.

[Scott Dorsey]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

No, really! It happened to a friend of mine's friend's mother's boss' uncle's
meter reader!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <pg0srr$q70$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

And did she have black widows in her hair?

[rincewind]

I always thought those were different words for the same thing.

*****
A baby carriage is pretty much a crib on wheels. A baby stroller is sort of a seat on wheels. Strollers come in a wide range of price and quality.

[Kevrob]

I always wanted to cross a baby carriage with a dog-cart
and get a basset-ette. :)

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <faf043cc-5ca0-4c2c...@googlegroups.com>,

You *could* just get a baby carriage and put a dog in it.
Assuming the dog would stay in it, which is even less likely with
a stroller.

[Kevrob]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 6:30:04 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <faf043cc-5ca0-4c2c...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 4:20:52 PM UTC-4, rincewind wrote:
> >> I always thought those were different words for the same thing.
> >> *****
> >> A baby carriage is pretty much a crib on wheels. A baby stroller is
> >sort of a seat on wheels. Strollers come in a wide range of price and
> >quality.
> >
> >I always wanted to cross a baby carriage with a dog-cart
> >and get a basset-ette. :)
>
> You *could* just get a baby carriage and put a dog in it.
> Assuming the dog would stay in it, which is even less likely with
> a stroller.
>

Well, people put microdogs* in _handbags._

Kevin R

* These toy lapdogs are under my constant suspicion that
they aren't some species of rat, FWIW.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> A rowhouse was something popular in Baltimore, and you didn't have
> to be wealthy to live in one.

It still is. Jack Chalker's widow lives in one. I helped a friend
move in with her, then later helped her move out.

> I learned about rowhouses reading a children's biography of Babe
> Ruth when I was a lad. The Bambino was born in one.

Maybe the same one; it's certainly old enough.

> The wiki link suggests the different names all describe pretty much
> the same thing, though I expect some descriptors attach to more
> upmarket versions.

Exactly. I live in an moderately upscale one.

Similarly, "trailer," "mobile home," and "manfactured housing" are
different terms for the same thing.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Agreed. The way kids get killed in toilets is when the monsters
>> come up out of the drain and eat them.

>> Children bring back pet snakes and when they get too big, they
>> flush them down the toilet and they stay down there just getting
>> bigger and bigger. Now the sewer system is full of fifty-foot
>> anacondas just waiting.

Nonsense. The alligators would eat them. Anyhow, how would a
fifty-foot snake fit through a toilet?

> [quote]

> Toilets can be overlooked as a drowning hazard in the home. The
> typical scenario involves a child under 3-years-old falling
> headfirst into the toilet. CPSC has received reports of 16 children
> under age 5 who drowned in toilets between 1996 and 1999.

For safety, during toilet training always warn children that snakes,
rats, scary clowns, etc., might burst out of the toilet at any time.
Or that they might fall in and drown. Or catch AIDS from touching
the toilet seat. Can't be too safe.

[Bill Dugan]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 22:04:18 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <faf043cc-5ca0-4c2c...@googlegroups.com>,
>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 4:20:52 PM UTC-4, rincewind wrote:
>>> I always thought those were different words for the same thing.
>>> *****
>>> A baby carriage is pretty much a crib on wheels. A baby stroller is
>>sort of a seat on wheels. Strollers come in a wide range of price and
>>quality.
>>
>>I always wanted to cross a baby carriage with a dog-cart
>>and get a basset-ette. :)
>
>You *could* just get a baby carriage and put a dog in it.
>Assuming the dog would stay in it, which is even less likely with
>a stroller.

I've done that with a sick dog, using a harness and leash to keep her
in the stroller.

[Pabst Blue Ribbon]

Alan Woodford <al...@thewoodfords.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 +0000 (UTC),
> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>
>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I was going to ask here if there were any other words English borrowed
>>> from Czech. But then I noticed that Wikipedia has a page that answers
>>> that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Czech_origin
>>>
>>> It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
>>> mostly only used in the UK.)
>>
>> Although dollar comes from (German) T(h)aler which is derived from
>> (German) T(h)al - valley.
>> The fact that the origin is located currently in Czech Republic is
>> irrelevant.
>>
>> Wiktionary says that the second meaning of English pram is
>> "(nautical, historical) A flat-bottomed barge used on shallow shores to
>> convey cargo to and from ships that cannot enter the harbour."
>>
>> My English is not good enough to comment on the usage of this meaning.
>> Though I was aware of this, and not the "perambulator" one - I would
>> have said "baby carriage" or perhaps "baby buggy".
>>
>> OTOH, "prám" in (contemporary) Czech means raft. Pram (the barge) is "pramice".
>>
>> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".
>
> And Pilsner, of course :-)

Let's not forget that Czech Republic always was industrial country. Maybe
not like Italy or UK but Czechs were manufacturing things that were known
all over the world.

Back in '60s Czech Republic was importing their Jawa/CZ motorcycles to US.
They are almost unknown today but you still can find ads and articles in
old magazines. Plus there are still few of those bikes in existence, and
few enthusiasts scattered across the country. It's kind of sad that Jawa
lost competition to Japanese bikes. Our roads could of been a little bit
different today with some European cruisers around. And "Jawa" or "CZ"
could of been a word that comes in mind when motorcycles are the topic,
same as "Harley-Davidson" or "Kawasaki".

There are also quite unique Tatra trucks. I never seen one in states but I
assume there should be few in possession of military equipment collectors,
since Tatra used to be a big player on military market.

Unfortunately both Jawa and Tatra nowadays are not what they used to be. As
far as I know, Jawa is basically producing one of their most popular retro
models, and their main customer base is previous owners who used to have
Jawa back in '70s or '80s (or those who were a kid back then and dreamed
about having one.) They have one new model but I doubt it's popular or even
known outside of the region.

Tatra was struggling for a long time, too. I think they were loosing
competition to German and other Western European truck manufacturers. I
didn't research it for several years though, maybe eight or ten. I don't
even know if they still producing Tatra trucks. I don't really want to
google it and find out that they finally closed doors.

[Alan Woodford]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:02:21 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
<pa...@blue.ribbon> wrote:

>Alan Woodford <al...@thewoodfords.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 +0000 (UTC),
>> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>>> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".
>>
>> And Pilsner, of course :-)
>
>Let's not forget that Czech Republic always was industrial country. Maybe
>not like Italy or UK but Czechs were manufacturing things that were known
>all over the world.
>
>Back in '60s Czech Republic was importing their Jawa/CZ motorcycles to US.
>They are almost unknown today but you still can find ads and articles in
>old magazines. Plus there are still few of those bikes in existence, and
>few enthusiasts scattered across the country. It's kind of sad that Jawa
>lost competition to Japanese bikes. Our roads could of been a little bit
>different today with some European cruisers around. And "Jawa" or "CZ"
>could of been a word that comes in mind when motorcycles are the topic,
>same as "Harley-Davidson" or "Kawasaki".
>

Back when I was riding motorbikes, in the late 70's and early 80's,
both Jawa and CZ had reputations in the UK for being solid and
reliable, which was more than could be said for most of the British
bikes of the period :-)

What they weren't, just like the British machines, was flash and
modern the way the Japanese machines were - think Blackberry to iPhone
for a more modern comparison.

>There are also quite unique Tatra trucks. I never seen one in states but I
>assume there should be few in possession of military equipment collectors,
>since Tatra used to be a big player on military market.
>
>Unfortunately both Jawa and Tatra nowadays are not what they used to be. As
>far as I know, Jawa is basically producing one of their most popular retro
>models, and their main customer base is previous owners who used to have
>Jawa back in '70s or '80s (or those who were a kid back then and dreamed
>about having one.) They have one new model but I doubt it's popular or even
>known outside of the region.
>
>Tatra was struggling for a long time, too. I think they were loosing
>competition to German and other Western European truck manufacturers. I
>didn't research it for several years though, maybe eight or ten. I don't
>even know if they still producing Tatra trucks. I don't really want to
>google it and find out that they finally closed doors.

Well, I just spent a quarter of an hour in the time sink that is known
as Wikipedia, and they were certainly making trucks, and increasing
production in 2016, so there's hope!

Some interestig tech, too, with air-cooled diesels that could meet the
Euro-5 emission specs as long ago as 2008.

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman

[Tim Merrigan]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:02:21 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
<pa...@blue.ribbon> wrote:

Nit: (couple actually) First Czechoslovakia was EXPORTING Jawa/CZ
motorcycles, the U.S. was importing them, and second, it was
Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic didn't exist in the '60s.

>They are almost unknown today but you still can find ads and articles in
>old magazines. Plus there are still few of those bikes in existence, and
>few enthusiasts scattered across the country. It's kind of sad that Jawa
>lost competition to Japanese bikes. Our roads could of been a little bit
>different today with some European cruisers around. And "Jawa" or "CZ"
>could of been a word that comes in mind when motorcycles are the topic,
>same as "Harley-Davidson" or "Kawasaki".
>
>There are also quite unique Tatra trucks. I never seen one in states but I
>assume there should be few in possession of military equipment collectors,
>since Tatra used to be a big player on military market.
>
>Unfortunately both Jawa and Tatra nowadays are not what they used to be. As
>far as I know, Jawa is basically producing one of their most popular retro
>models, and their main customer base is previous owners who used to have
>Jawa back in '70s or '80s (or those who were a kid back then and dreamed
>about having one.) They have one new model but I doubt it's popular or even
>known outside of the region.
>
>Tatra was struggling for a long time, too. I think they were loosing
>competition to German and other Western European truck manufacturers. I
>didn't research it for several years though, maybe eight or ten. I don't
>even know if they still producing Tatra trucks. I don't really want to
>google it and find out that they finally closed doors.

[Joy Beeson]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 23:55:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

> Good Lord. Please tell me she had a washing machine!

My mom had two in diapers and no running water. I believe that she
had a pump and a sink in the kitchen, though.

I know that there were washing machines intended to be filled with
buckets, but it's far too late to ask whether she had one.

And she probably had me for at least a year before we moved into town
for the duration. Dad earned enough in the war plant to buy a tractor
and have the house wired and plumbed when we moved back.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Pabst Blue Ribbon]

First one is more a typo though, but Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic
confusion is an actual error worth fixing. Thanks.

[Pabst Blue Ribbon]

Alan Woodford <al...@thewoodfords.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 11:02:21 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
> <pa...@blue.ribbon> wrote:
>
>> Alan Woodford <al...@thewoodfords.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:56:13 +0000 (UTC),
>>> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, perhaps the best known word of Czech origin borrowed into
>>>> English is... "Czech". Followed by "Prague".
>>>
>>> And Pilsner, of course :-)
>>
>> Let's not forget that Czech Republic always was industrial country. Maybe
>> not like Italy or UK but Czechs were manufacturing things that were known
>> all over the world.
>>
>> Back in '60s Czech Republic was importing their Jawa/CZ motorcycles to US.
>> They are almost unknown today but you still can find ads and articles in
>> old magazines. Plus there are still few of those bikes in existence, and
>> few enthusiasts scattered across the country. It's kind of sad that Jawa
>> lost competition to Japanese bikes. Our roads could of been a little bit
>> different today with some European cruisers around. And "Jawa" or "CZ"
>> could of been a word that comes in mind when motorcycles are the topic,
>> same as "Harley-Davidson" or "Kawasaki".
>>
>
> Back when I was riding motorbikes, in the late 70's and early 80's,
> both Jawa and CZ had reputations in the UK for being solid and
> reliable, which was more than could be said for most of the British
> bikes of the period :-)

Are there any Jawa motorcycles on UK roads now?

> What they weren't, just like the British machines, was flash and
> modern the way the Japanese machines were - think Blackberry to iPhone
> for a more modern comparison.
>
>> There are also quite unique Tatra trucks. I never seen one in states but I
>> assume there should be few in possession of military equipment collectors,
>> since Tatra used to be a big player on military market.
>>
>> Unfortunately both Jawa and Tatra nowadays are not what they used to be. As
>> far as I know, Jawa is basically producing one of their most popular retro
>> models, and their main customer base is previous owners who used to have
>> Jawa back in '70s or '80s (or those who were a kid back then and dreamed
>> about having one.) They have one new model but I doubt it's popular or even
>> known outside of the region.
>>
>> Tatra was struggling for a long time, too. I think they were loosing
>> competition to German and other Western European truck manufacturers. I
>> didn't research it for several years though, maybe eight or ten. I don't
>> even know if they still producing Tatra trucks. I don't really want to
>> google it and find out that they finally closed doors.
>
> Well, I just spent a quarter of an hour in the time sink that is known
> as Wikipedia, and they were certainly making trucks, and increasing
> production in 2016, so there's hope!
>
> Some interestig tech, too, with air-cooled diesels that could meet the
> Euro-5 emission specs as long ago as 2008.

I was always impressed by their chassis design. Apparently, they are the
only big truck manufacturer who used backbone chassis:

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backbone_chassis>

[Kevrob]

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 1:59:50 AM UTC-4, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:

> Are there any Jawa motorcycles on UK roads now?

I think the sand people got them all. :)

Kevin R

[Alan Woodford]

On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 04:36:19 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 1:59:50 AM UTC-4, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:
>
>> Are there any Jawa motorcycles on UK roads now?
>
>I think the sand people got them all. :)
>

:-P :-P

There are a few, but not many at all...

According to https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/, which is a site that
analyses the UK vehicle registration figures, there have been between
20 and 25 new Jawas registered each year for the last few years, and
there are only a few hundred on the list at all now.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> I made reference to my own experience, "I don't think I've ever

> heard". I've lived my whole life in California, ...

By "heard" I thought you included "read." When someone says, "I heard
that there's a heat advisory" (or whatever), there's no implication
that they received that information by ear rather than by eye.

[Tim Merrigan]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 02:18:41 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> I made reference to my own experience, "I don't think I've ever
>> heard". I've lived my whole life in California, ...
>
>By "heard" I thought you included "read." When someone says, "I heard
>that there's a heat advisory" (or whatever), there's no implication
>that they received that information by ear rather than by eye.

I meant heard in normal conversation, by native speakers of American
English, in America. I.e. not in British TV or radio shows, movies,
or books. And I think that you're a moron that that wasn't obvious to
you from context.

I have in fact heard the phrase in those foreign contexts.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Nit: (couple actually) First Czechoslovakia was EXPORTING Jawa/CZ
> motorcycles, the U.S. was importing them, and second, it was
> Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic didn't exist in the '60s.

Well, Czech Socialist Republic existed (renamed to just Czech Republic in
1990) since 1969 - so it managed to exist in the '60s, though just
barely.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[Gary McGath]

On 6/18/18 11:06 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:

> And I think that you're a moron that that wasn't obvious to
> you from context.

Whoever calls the opponent a moron first has lost the argument.


--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

[Tim Merrigan]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 10:12:20 -0400, Gary McGath
<ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

>On 6/18/18 11:06 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:
>
>> And I think that you're a moron that that wasn't obvious to
>> you from context.
>
>Whoever calls the opponent a moron first has lost the argument.

That or his trolling me worked, and I gave an example of throwing my
toys from the pram (which is still not an American idiom).

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 2:53:12 PM UTC-4, Tim Merrigan wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 10:12:20 -0400, Gary McGath
> <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>
> >On 6/18/18 11:06 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:
> >
> >> And I think that you're a moron that that wasn't obvious to
> >> you from context.
> >
> >Whoever calls the opponent a moron first has lost the argument.
>
> That or his trolling me worked, and I gave an example of throwing my
> toys from the pram (which is still not an American idiom).
> --

We USAians do use "threw his toys out of the playpen," however.

Investigating this led me to this fascinating concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-anglicism

Apparently, some French call a playpen a baby-parc.
I wonder how the Academie francaise (Académie française)
feel about that one - Franglish that isn't even based on
real English?

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <9dcf3c88-9b5f-400e...@googlegroups.com>,

I'm no Franglish expert, but I suspect it happens fairly often.
And by the time the Academic notices it, it's in wide usage and
it's too late for them to shoot it down.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> Tim Merrigan wrote:
>>> And I think that you're a moron that that wasn't obvious to you
>>> from context.

>> Whoever calls the opponent a moron first has lost the argument.

> That or his trolling me worked, and I gave an example of throwing my
> toys from the pram

Trolling? Again, you posted, on the 13th:

I don't think I've ever heard any variations of "throw one's toys
from the pram," except maybe literally, "Baby threw her toys from
her stroller," but not as a euphemisms for a fit of anger. Mostly
I've heard, in that context, "throw a tantrum".

Do you really think it's "trolling" for a reader to assume that
"heard" includes "read"? Give me a break.

> (which is still not an American idiom).

And nobody said it was. Indeed, on the 10th I posted, in this thread:

It lists 11, including "dollar," "pistol," and "pram." ("Pram" is
mostly only used in the UK.)

But somehow *I'm* the moron? Maybe you should learn Czech. You're
obviously no good at English. Sheesh!

[Tim Merrigan]

I didn't post a long list of British citations to counter a claim that
I'd never heard the term used in America.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <9dcf3c88-9b5f-400e...@googlegroups.com>,

kev...@my-deja.com (Kevrob) wrote:

>
> Apparently, some French call a playpen a baby-parc.
> I wonder how the Academie francaise (Académie française)
> feel about that one - Franglish that isn't even based on
> real English?

When I was in Paris a couple of months ago, I was amused to see posters
for a new film proclaiming it to be "Un Feelgood Movie Hilarant".

[Gary McGath]

In Montreal I once saw posters for "Film Black."