Inform Competition ?!!
Paul Bowler
of Inform I-F, I decided what fun (using the term loosly) it
would be to quickly write a small Inform diversion to try and
keep my sanity in some way intact. Needless to say this didn't
work, and I am now busy writing two scripts !! However, this
second piece only has five rooms and as such is more complete
than the first one which I have been working on for many
months now.
After this revelation, I thought how great (again, using the
term loosly) it would be to have a sort of _competition_
to write a short piece of Inform, say no more than five rooms.
I'm sure many great masterpieces could be knocked up over a
weekend, adn just think of the publicity !!
I'm not sure what the prize could be though !!
Anybody interested ? Post here, post haste !
--
Paul.
JeffJetton
>After this revelation, I thought how great (again, using the
>term loosly) it would be to have a sort of _competition_
>to write a short piece of Inform, say no more than five rooms.
>I'm sure many great masterpieces could be knocked up over a
>weekend, adn just think of the publicity !!
I've always thought it would be nice to see more short IF pieces. (SIF, if
you will). You know, the sort of thing the player can play in an hour or
so. I really enjoyed Unnkulian one-half. (which would really be more like
a novella than a short story, I guess)
But then, I have a notoriously short attention span.
- Jeff
Fury Op
what the prizes should be (perhaps a US$5.00 entry fee and the winner
takes the pot?) but if someone lays down the rules, it might be good as
a monthly sort of thing. Or it could just be for fun...
So what should the rules be? Lets think of a few -
-The Game must have at least three but no more than 8 rooms.
-There must be a "win" state - ie. a way to finish, not just
wander aimlessly.
-It must be able to be finished in under two hours by an average
player, versed with IF.
-It must be written with Inform.
And it should be judged on:
-Originality (of story, of execution, of puzzles)
-Amusement Quality
-Style (ie. writing quality, or ability to convey a mood)
-Something else quantifiable
Now we just need someone to organize it and run it. If anyone has any
suggestions or comments, post or email me. I'd love to hear Graham's
opinion on all of this
-Fury Op
--
"you could have it all my empire of dirt
i will let you down i will make you hurt."
-Trent Reznor
*** Visit the Isle Armande @ http://www.rpi.edu/~furiop ***
Allison Weaver
>
> Now we just need someone to organize it and run it. If anyone has any
> suggestions or comments, post or email me. I'd love to hear Graham's
> opinion on all of this
>
I really like this idea. Can ftp.gmd.de work with us? If there was a
special directory for a competition, then contestants could upload games
which would then be available for download and play. Let peers do the
judging within a certain timeframe?
________________________________________________________
Allison Weaver | Once you've torn down all of the laws in the country |
CMIS-Univ Md | and you find yourself face to face with the Devil, |
| what will you hide behind? -Becket |
Eileen Mullin
> Actually, I think this would be a good idea. I don't know
> what the prizes should be (perhaps a US$5.00 entry fee and the winner
> takes the pot?) but if someone lays down the rules, it might be good as
> a monthly sort of thing. Or it could just be for fun...
.
.
.
> Now we just need someone to organize it and run it. If anyone has any
> suggestions or comments, post or email me.
Count me in for wanting to help organize and providing nominal prizes (I
don't think entry fees are a good idea, though).
David Gilbert
: -It must be written with Inform.
Hmmmmm... Why is this? What about a plain IF competition, rather than an
Inform competition? Just wondering because I like the idea, but I don't know
inform ( I use TADS).
Only from the warped mind of,
David L. Gilbert
Brian Lane
: Count me in for wanting to help organize and providing nominal prizes (I
: don't think entry fees are a good idea, though).
I've been knocking this idea around inside my head for a year or so. Its
nice to see someone else get itout of my head and into the open :>
I would prefer the rules to include any portable IF system, so that Inform
and TADS can be included, but not systems that run under only one OS. I like
TADS, and I'm running Linux, so you know where I'm at.
Prizes. Like what? Money? Infocom memorabilia maybe? Advance release of
Avalon :>
Brian
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G.U.E. Technical Institute 1:138/162.0 | ftp.eskimo.com/blane
FREE Dungeon training for budding adventurers | www.eskimo.com/~blane
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gerry Kevin Wilson
>
> I've been knocking this idea around inside my head for a year or so. Its
>nice to see someone else get itout of my head and into the open :>
>
> I would prefer the rules to include any portable IF system, so that Inform
>and TADS can be included, but not systems that run under only one OS. I like
>TADS, and I'm running Linux, so you know where I'm at.
>
> Prizes. Like what? Money? Infocom memorabilia maybe? Advance release of
>Avalon :>
>
> Brian
Is there a lot of interest in this contest? If so, I can help run it
through the SPAG mailing list. We can get Volker to put aside a special
directory for entries, come up with an entry deadline, and have the thing
judged by peer voting, the vote being announced both here and on the SPAG
list. Let's see, prizes. I'll contribute a lifetime 10% discount card
for Vertigo software if we get at least 10 entries. Who else wants to
contribute something? Dave, Graham, anyone?
Oh yes, I feel that the design system should only matter insofar as it
lets everyone play the game.
--
<~~~~T~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
< R I This space | ~~\ >
< E G intentionally left | /~\ | >
<_V____SOFTWARE_________...@uclink.berkeley.edu_|_\__/__>
David Gilbert
: Is there a lot of interest in this contest? If so, I can help run it
: through the SPAG mailing list. We can get Volker to put aside a special
: directory for entries, come up with an entry deadline, and have the thing
: judged by peer voting, the vote being announced both here and on the SPAG
: list. Let's see, prizes. I'll contribute a lifetime 10% discount card
: for Vertigo software if we get at least 10 entries. Who else wants to
: contribute something? Dave, Graham, anyone?
: Oh yes, I feel that the design system should only matter insofar as it
: lets everyone play the game.
Ditto. And I think I have an idea for a contribution.
Marcus-Christopher Ludl
: Fury Op (fur...@cii3116-09.its.rpi.edu) wrote:
: : -It must be written with Inform.
: Hmmmmm... Why is this? What about a plain IF competition, rather than an
: Inform competition? Just wondering because I like the idea, but I don't know
: inform ( I use TADS).
Yes, why restrict the competition to Inform? Or Inform and TADS? I for my
part don't use any IF-tool, but I'd be happy if my game were also allowed
to compete... of course only games should be accepted that match certain
criterias, like
*) "text-basedness"
*) no graphics, no sound
*) no unusual new functions (just the known commands like "TAKE", "N"...)
*) existance (and "reachablility") of a "win-state"
*) not more than, say, 10 rooms
*) playable within, say, about 5 hours
Anyway, there are still some problems: Who should be the judge? What if
someone does not accept the result? What if the judges make an obviously
"silly" decision?
Marcus
--
----- *********************************************
|M | Marcus-Christopher LUDL
| || ---------------------------------------------
| C || Email: e922...@stud1.tuwien.ac.at
| || Address:
| L|| ---------------------------------------------
---- | And now for something completely different...
---- *********************************************
Brian Lane
: >Avalon :>
: Is there a lot of interest in this contest? If so, I can help run it
: through the SPAG mailing list. We can get Volker to put aside a special
: directory for entries, come up with an entry deadline, and have the thing
: judged by peer voting, the vote being announced both here and on the SPAG
: list. Let's see, prizes. I'll contribute a lifetime 10% discount card
: for Vertigo software if we get at least 10 entries. Who else wants to
: contribute something? Dave, Graham, anyone?
I say we do it. Write up a list of rules, set a deadline for entries.
I'd like to keep it limited to under 8 room as suggested in the first
message. No minimum number of rooms(you never know what people can come up
with. How about a party with one location, and just characters to interact
with?).
Design system should be portable between MAC, DOS, and Unix as a minimum
requirement.
Time limit should be say August 1st or so. Time to give students something
to do with their summer break.
I've started writing ideas for mine. (I always do titles first. Gets me
morivated).
Look for it on a ftp site near you (in a couple months, or with a time
machine):
Baldar the Wanderer: The Quest for the Princess's Navel
A whimsical adventurer with a budding Barbarian named Baldar on his quest
to recover the Princess's stolen diamond. Includes the much acclaimed 'How
to be a Barbarian' by Rex the Stout.
Erik Max Francis
> Let's see, prizes. I'll contribute a lifetime 10% discount card
> for Vertigo software if we get at least 10 entries.
For cryin' out loud, do you even have a business license?
Erik Max Francis, &tSftDotIotE ...!uuwest!alcyone!max m...@alcyone.darkside.com
San Jose, CA ... GIGO, Psi, Universe ... ICBM: 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W _
H.3`S,3,P,3$S,#$Q,C`Q,3,P,3$S,#$Q,3`Q,3,P,C$Q,#(Q.#`-"C`- ftmfbs kmmfa mc2 / \
Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt. ("All things that are, are lights.") -><- \_/
"We all may have come on different ships, but we're in the same boat now."
Greg Brisson
competition on an entry standpoint, if you folks need any reassurance that
there are people interested. I LOVE IF and am glad there are people just
like me! Thank you, everyone, for keeping an underappreciated hobby alive!
- Greg Brisson
2li...@delphi.com
Volker Blasius
>
> I really like this idea. Can ftp.gmd.de work with us? If there was a
>special directory for a competition, then contestants could upload games
>which would then be available for download and play.
No problem. Just tell me that you actually want to do it, and when you
upload games make sure to tell me that they are competition entries so that
they don't get lost in my general backlog swamp. :)
Volker
Ben Chalmers
bl...@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) wrote:
> Gerry Kevin Wilson (whiz...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> : > Prizes. Like what? Money? Infocom memorabilia maybe? Advance release of
> : >Avalon :>
>
>
> : Is there a lot of interest in this contest? If so, I can help run it
> : through the SPAG mailing list. We can get Volker to put aside a special
> : directory for entries, come up with an entry deadline, and have the thing
> : judged by peer voting, the vote being announced both here and on the SPAG
> : list. Let's see, prizes. I'll contribute a lifetime 10% discount card
> : for Vertigo software if we get at least 10 entries. Who else wants to
> : contribute something? Dave, Graham, anyone?
>
> I say we do it. Write up a list of rules, set a deadline for entries.
>
> I'd like to keep it limited to under 8 room as suggested in the first
> message. No minimum number of rooms(you never know what people can come up
> with. How about a party with one location, and just characters to interact
> with?).
How do we define what a room is? This might sound stupid but it is possible
to use the same number of rooms, but change their descriptions totally.
My idea for a game (a very surreal idea it is too) could well be pushing
the room rules to their limits by what I want to do.
>
> Design system should be portable between MAC, DOS, and Unix as a minimum
> requirement.
Full source should be provided, no matter what language it is in so that
users of other platforms can still try and figure what is going on
>
> Time limit should be say August 1st or so. Time to give students something
> to do with their summer break.
>
>
> I've started writing ideas for mine. (I always do titles first. Gets me
> morivated).
>
> Look for it on a ftp site near you (in a couple months, or with a time
> machine):
>
> Baldar the Wanderer: The Quest for the Princess's Navel
>
> A whimsical adventurer with a budding Barbarian named Baldar on his quest
> to recover the Princess's stolen diamond. Includes the much acclaimed 'How
> to be a Barbarian' by Rex the Stout.
>
> Brian
And check out (eventually)
All the Worlds a Flat.
A mystery spanning the ages and involving one very battered Teddy Bear.
(Assuming the room rule is explained better)
--
+---------------------------------------+
+-Lotsa Luv b...@bench.demon.co.uk-|Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary|-+
| +---------------------------------------+ |
| SELFISH, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
... Profanity, the language computerists know.
Gareth Rees
> Is there a lot of interest in this contest?
If such a competition does emerge, I will donate my vintage copy of
"Castles and Kingdoms: An electrifying compendium of 15 BASIC adventures
you can type in to your Commodore 64" by Bob Liddil as one of the prizes
(-8.
I agree that the adventure-writing system shouldn't matter and that
portability should.
--
Gareth Rees
Paul Bowler
>
> No problem. Just tell me that you actually want to do it, and when you
> upload games make sure to tell me that they are competition entries so that
> they don't get lost in my general backlog swamp. :)
>
> Volker
>
As I started this posting, it is probably right that I finish it, so on \
behalf of everyone interested..... LETS DOOOOOO IT !!!
Sorry, I didn't mean to shout, I'm just a little excited.
May I suggest that the first entries are in by the end of June, or do you
all think that is a little too soon ? I suppose I have a slight advantage of
having a piece almost completed, but it has only taken me about four days
so far (and not full days at that), so I personally don't think a month is
asking too much.
Most of the rules mentioned so far seem very reasonable. I know I first
said it was to be an Inform competition, but that was primarily because I
write using Inform rather than TADS, but mainly because of the freeware and
portability aspects, but I now think it fair to let you any entries so long
as they can be executable on the main systems. It may be worth mentioning
that it is your own interest to get as many people playing your IF as
possible. That way you have the chance of gaining more votes.
Which leads us on to scoring. May I suggest setting up a competition thread
where anyone can place their top (say) three votes. These votes can then be
added up after the voting period expires (say one month after the closing
date). I personally think aprize isn't really necessary; the exposure and
fame resulting from such a prestigeous event will be reward enough !!
Before we (I ?) ask Volker to go ahead are there any questions/problems/
objections ??
--
Paul.
[ Everyone should have a motto; that's _my_ motto !! ]
Brian Lane
: Well, I, for one, would like to add that I'm definitely interested in the
: competition on an entry standpoint, if you folks need any reassurance that
: there are people interested. I LOVE IF and am glad there are people just
: like me! Thank you, everyone, for keeping an underappreciated hobby alive!
Feedback is exactly what we need. If there isn't enough interest, there's
no point in trying to come up with worthwhile prizes.
Just for the record, count me in. I'm already working on learning
worldclass and outlining my game.
Magnus Olsson
for short IF. I would prefer if TADS entries were accepted, because it
would save not only me, but lots of other people, the trouble of
learning Inform (which isn't the easiest thing in the world).
In article <19950512....@bench.demon.co.uk>,
Ben Chalmers <B...@bench.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'd like to keep it limited to under 8 room as suggested in the first
>> message. No minimum number of rooms(you never know what people can come up
>> with. How about a party with one location, and just characters to interact
>> with?).
>
>How do we define what a room is? This might sound stupid but it is possible
>to use the same number of rooms, but change their descriptions totally.
>My idea for a game (a very surreal idea it is too) could well be pushing
>the room rules to their limits by what I want to do.
Indeed.
The notion of a "room" is not very well defined. To the implementer,
it's often clear: the code will be structured into "rooms". However, to
the player, it's not obvious at all.
An example: in my game Dunjin, there is one room where you can stand
on a table. Standing on the table, you can reach places you can't if you
are standing on the floor. So, is the table a room or not? In Dunjin,
it actually is: typing "stand on table" will move you to the room
"on the table". But if one hasn't seen the source code, one could very
well argue that "of course a table isn't a roo, it's an object".
But we should still have some limit on the game's complexity: for the
entire contest to be feasible, the games should be small and quickly played.
Having many rooms in any reasonable sense will make the game complex
(because the game will then have a complex geography, or at least a
lot of places to visit), so it could be reasonable to limit the number
of rooms to some one-digit figure. However, one could easily imagine a
game with only one room, but this room crammed chock full with
objects. An example is "Mop and Murder", which though relatively brief
certainly can't be solved in an hour. Maybe we should limit the number
of objects?
Limiting the size of the source or executable isn't really fair, since
the code size require to implement the same game varies greatly
between languages.
Maybe one should limit the size of the _text_? Then the author could
choose either to make a very small advenutre in terms of rooms,
objects and actors, with very rich descriptions, lots of flowery
prose, etc, or to make a relatively large one, with many objects woith
very brief descriptions.
This would also correlate with the time needed to play it, since the
more text there is, the more time you have ot spend reading, looking
for clues, etc.
And maybe the question of whether an entry is too large should be left
to the users. Perhaps a game shouldn't automatically be disqualified just
because it has 9 rooms instead of 8, but whoever is going to rate
the entires should be instructed to let size influence their ratings.
>> Design system should be portable between MAC, DOS, and Unix as a minimum
>> requirement.
>
>Full source should be provided, no matter what language it is in so that
>users of other platforms can still try and figure what is going on
I agree. Preferably, the authors should also be required to give their
games away for free - not to give away the rights (or put the code in
the public domain), but not to charge anything for it.
>
>>
>> Time limit should be say August 1st or so. Time to give students something
>> to do with their summer break.
>>
>>
>> I've started writing ideas for mine. (I always do titles first. Gets me
>> morivated).
>>
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden
Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus...@ivab.se)
Old adresses (may still work): mag...@thep.lu.se, the...@selund.bitnet
PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request.
Jacob S Weinstein
>Which leads us on to scoring. May I suggest setting up a competition thread
>where anyone can place their top (say) three votes. These votes can then be
>added up after the voting period expires (say one month after the closing
>date). I personally think aprize isn't really necessary; the exposure and
>fame resulting from such a prestigeous event will be reward enough !!
Is it really necessary to post votes to a thread? I think it would be
more efficient if some kind soul volunteers to tabulate the results, and
people e-mail them to him or her--no reason to waste bandwidth.
And while I'm posting--I agree that judges should be on the honor system
to play all the games, rahter than have to answer a question.
Brian Lane
: As I started this posting, it is probably right that I finish it, so on \
: behalf of everyone interested..... LETS DOOOOOO IT !!!
: Sorry, I didn't mean to shout, I'm just a little excited.
YAAAAA! Let's just do it! (oops, don't mean any copyright infringement
there...)
: May I suggest that the first entries are in by the end of June, or do you
: all think that is a little too soon ? I suppose I have a slight advantage of
: having a piece almost completed, but it has only taken me about four days
: so far (and not full days at that), so I personally don't think a month is
: asking too much.
End of June sounds good to me. A less than 10 room game shouldn't take too
long.
: Most of the rules mentioned so far seem very reasonable. I know I first
: said it was to be an Inform competition, but that was primarily because I
: write using Inform rather than TADS, but mainly because of the freeware and
: portability aspects, but I now think it fair to let you any entries so long
: as they can be executable on the main systems. It may be worth mentioning
: that it is your own interest to get as many people playing your IF as
: possible. That way you have the chance of gaining more votes.
Lets leave it open. If it only runs on one OS, then it will lose out, but
we should leave that decision up to the author.
: Which leads us on to scoring. May I suggest setting up a competition thread
: where anyone can place their top (say) three votes. These votes can then be
: added up after the voting period expires (say one month after the closing
: date). I personally think aprize isn't really necessary; the exposure and
: fame resulting from such a prestigeous event will be reward enough !!
I would set up a mailinglist, but my UUCP connectino isn't up yet. If its
active before anyone else takes control, I'll volunteer to run a competition
list, with summaries posted here.
: Before we (I ?) ask Volker to go ahead are there any questions/problems/
: objections ??
Need an official list of rules, just to keep things kosher.
My main points:
10 rooms or less
Solve in less than a week of moderate playing(of course this will vary
somewhat).
Fun!
JeffJetton
this a rather informal (no pun intended) contest. We could discuss the
nitty-gritty of the rules for months and never get anything done.
First, on the issue of portability, I think requiring that the programs
run on PCs and Macs is good enough, which pretty much means that either
TADS or Inform be allowed. If the game can't run on, say, a Timex-Sinclair
1000, then so be it. Not only do PCs and Macs cover about 90% of the
platforms used for playing IF out there, they, in all likelihood, cover
99% of the platforms used for *creating* IF, which is what this is about
anyway.
Second, as far as the voting process goes, the honor system would be fine
by me. People could download the games, rate them, and e-mail their
ratings to a volunteer. The volunteer would have to check for "ballot
stuffing", but I think we're a pretty trustworthy group.
Third, the subject of rooms is a tricky one. As stated here before, what
is a *room* anyway? I vote for less than 10, but who really cares? A big
factor in the ratings should be what the author does with those rooms. A
game with that does a lot with 12 locations would rank higher in my book
than one that has only 5, but does nothing with them. Of course, one with
2 rooms that still engages the imagination would rank above them all. In
any case, any room limit should be pretty "fuzzy", and the voter should
consider how well the game conforms to the general concept of "short IF".
But enough of my yakkin', let's get this thing going!
Regards,
- Jeff
Paul Bowler
I'm not entirely happy about releasing the source code for my piece
of I-F. The main reason for me posting the idea of a SIF competition
was to increase the number of works out there. Being in the middle of
creating a large Inform piece myself I know just how long it takes to
write (the coding is the easy bit; coming up with the ideas to put into
code is many times more difficult), which is why I suggested a short
piece. The 'competition' aspect was really just motivation to get
people writing. The resulting programs were intended to be games
in their own right, not just means for earning a few bucks, and as such
a would feel cheated to release my own code or have a walk-through
immediately available. The 'fun' would be ruined instantly.
I though that after a few games had been downloaded, more and more
people would be encouraged to do the same, thus increasing the scope
for discussion (I am rather tired of us all just talking about IF
rather than getting out there and playing it - after all, that's the
fun part isn't it ?!). Remember the amazing number of postings that
were flying around a few months ago when Grahams 'Curses !' was in
full swing ?
The creation of interactive fiction was my intention, _not_ the great
who-can-vote-who-can't-vote argument that it is rapidly becoming.
Shouldn't we get back to the point ?
Paul O'Brian
>I'm not entirely happy about releasing the source code for my piece
>of I-F.
Maybe a good thing would be to think about it this way: A great side benefit of having this competition (besides having more games out there to play) would be the resulting increase in available source code for Inform (not that Inform necessarily SHOULD be the language of choice, but there is far more source code available for TADS), which can only help those people out there (like me) who are working to learn Inform and sometime in the future write their own games. I know that one of the frustrations I have had with trying to teach myself Inform is that there just aren't that many examples out there, especially of the non-pedestrian variety (I loved Adventure, too, but it just wasn't that sophisticated by today's standards). So, releasing your source code CAN help move towards the goal you mention in your post: the eventual creation of more IF.
>The resulting programs were intended to be games
>in their own right, not just means for earning a few bucks, and as such
>a would feel cheated to release my own code or have a walk-through
>immediately available. The 'fun' would be ruined instantly.
It seems to me that it doesn't necessarily follow that having source code out there would necessarily spoil the fun. After all, there's no reason why people who are of a like viewpoint (again, like me) can't just download the game file, play it, and when they've solved it (the fun part) THEN look at the source code. The best of both worlds, eh? Not only that, but a spoiler file might also help those of us (once again, like me) who don't have a whole lot of spare time, but want to try to play all the games entered and, if the votes are going to be due by a certain date (and I can't imagine a competition without a deadline), may need a clue or two to solve the game so that we can judge it as a complete work.
--
Paul O'Brian obr...@ucsu.colorado.edu
"No one knows how I feel or what I say unless you read between my lines"
-Stevie Nicks
Gerry Kevin Wilson
Paul Bowler <Pa...@mdown.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I'm not entirely happy about releasing the source code for my piece
>was to increase the number of works out there. Being in the middle of
>creating a large Inform piece myself I know just how long it takes to
>write (the coding is the easy bit; coming up with the ideas to put into
>code is many times more difficult), which is why I suggested a short
>piece. The 'competition' aspect was really just motivation to get
>in their own right, not just means for earning a few bucks, and as such
>a would feel cheated to release my own code or have a walk-through
>immediately available. The 'fun' would be ruined instantly.
Well, those two things will be optional, I reckon. Sort of like most of
the other rules. On the other hand, I AM trying to create, if not an
impartial field, at least a decently fair one, or it will discourage
entries, and that is a Bad Thing (tm).
>I though that after a few games had been downloaded, more and more
>people would be encouraged to do the same, thus increasing the scope
>for discussion (I am rather tired of us all just talking about IF
>rather than getting out there and playing it - after all, that's the
>fun part isn't it ?!). Remember the amazing number of postings that
>were flying around a few months ago when Grahams 'Curses !' was in
>full swing ?
But on the other hand, this newsgroup is about talking about writing such
games, not for particularly discussing finished works. I mean, not
unless I've missed something. We have rec.games.int-fiction for that
sort of thing, and the messages there, while not whizzing around, still
come at a fairly respectable rate.
>The creation of interactive fiction was my intention, _not_ the great
>who-can-vote-who-can't-vote argument that it is rapidly becoming.
I didn't ask for that either, you might have noticed, it has evolved as a
side-effect of throwing open the game to all the authors here, and as
such must be dealt with, unpleasant or no.
>Shouldn't we get back to the point ?
I suspect that we will in about a week or so. But people have needed
rules ever since Hammurabi (sp?) and his codes. Probably before then.
So, we sort out the nit pickings, and then it's back to business.
--
<~~~VERTIGO~~~~~~~~~~~~THE~BRASS~LANTERN~~~~~~ISSUE~1~INCL~W/AVALON~~|~~~~~~~>
< In the irreverent tradition of _The New Zork Times_ comes The | ~~\ >
< Brass Lantern, an informative newsletter from Vertigo Software. | /~\ | >
<___SOFTWARE____________...@uclink.berkeley.edu__|_\__/__>
Ben Chalmers
Pa...@mdown.demon.co.uk (Paul Bowler) wrote:
>
> I'm not entirely happy about releasing the source code for my piece
> of I-F. The main reason for me posting the idea of a SIF competition
> was to increase the number of works out there. Being in the middle of
> creating a large Inform piece myself I know just how long it takes to
> write (the coding is the easy bit; coming up with the ideas to put into
> code is many times more difficult), which is why I suggested a short
> piece. The 'competition' aspect was really just motivation to get
> people writing. The resulting programs were intended to be games
> in their own right, not just means for earning a few bucks, and as such
> a would feel cheated to release my own code or have a walk-through
> immediately available. The 'fun' would be ruined instantly.
>
> I though that after a few games had been downloaded, more and more
> people would be encouraged to do the same, thus increasing the scope
> for discussion (I am rather tired of us all just talking about IF
> rather than getting out there and playing it - after all, that's the
> fun part isn't it ?!). Remember the amazing number of postings that
> were flying around a few months ago when Grahams 'Curses !' was in
> full swing ?
I agree understand what you are saying, and I think it looks like the
competition will do just what you are suggesting it should (I know it has got
me to write a game). I don't think the releasing of source code will spoil
anyones fun (after all I got all the hints free in the LTOI package but
rarely refer to them). Since the game should be playable in 2 hours it
makes little sense making it too difficult - the game should be an interesting
diversion, not another crossword puzzle. Because of this releasing your
source code should help people enjoy it more (showing them extra aspects
of the game).
Your source will have a far better role however. I imagine many people are
looking for just the sort of code these bite sized games will give - the
inspiration neded for them to go and do something similar. They will be
an excellent acompanyment to resorces such as the Inform programmers page.
For me, coding has always has been more fun than playing games (but then I am
rather strange) I really hope this competition will get me fully launched
into the IF coding scene.
TTFN
Ben
--
Lotsa Luv b...@bench.demon.co.uk-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
= In you're heart you know its real... =
- Squiggle (the author formerly known as Terry Pratchett) -
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
... A bird in the hand is safer than one overhead.
Mathematical Institute, (01865) 2-73525
this competition, how about:
(a) Closing date: end of August (I think this is more reasonable,
and nicer since it means there will be games around on the net
for the start of the next academic year);
(b) At most 8 locations (I've tried this one, since 8 is about the
number of locations in Balances);
(c) Written in either TADS or Inform;
(d) With source code made public, all to be archived together.
Perhaps, as a gesture of reconciliation in this schismatic world, the
winning entry could be ported to both systems (a game this size can
usually be ported in a couple of evenings' work, I think).
I suggest that at the end of August, or thereabouts, executables
(e.g. Infocom format story files, or TADS executables for Macs and PCs)
are lodged in a special directory at ftp.gmd.de for the world to play
as much as it can stand, and that someone collect votes by email;
or perhaps, rather than votes (which would only be appropriate if you'd
played all the games thoroughly), scores out of 10.
It might be fun if the entries were anonymous during the judging period.
Graham Nelson
Neil Demause
be in TADS. This whole thing is a great idea.
One question, though: If Whizzard's going to be away from his Net account
for the summer, should he really be tabulating the votes? Wouldn't it
make more sense for someone who's going to be online regularly do it, at
least this time around?
Andrew C. Plotkin
by August 1. (Earlier is unlikely. Free time. Sigh. First I have to
get this Mac port of XZip working, for lo, I am cantankerous and want
my interface the way I want it. Yes, I've tried MacZIP and ZEX.)
I'll be using Inform, in case anyone is counting.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Andrew C. Plotkin
or a transcript. (For the same reasons that I never give out hints: if
you go through my game with hints, you're not experiencing the artwork
that I tried to produce. And also, I break down and look at hints too
quickly, so I figure you will too. :-)
I understand that something like that will be necessary for the
purposes of a contest. I'll probably just break down and upload the
game and source separately. (Assuming I finish them, of course.)
Gerry Kevin Wilson
Neil Demause <ne...@echonyc.com> wrote:
>One question, though: If Whizzard's going to be away from his Net account
>for the summer, should he really be tabulating the votes? Wouldn't it
>make more sense for someone who's going to be online regularly do it, at
>least this time around?
Ah, grasshopper. Whizzard will be moving to AOL for the summer, but will
return to uclink in the fall, as the birds return to the south year after
year to roost for the winter.
--
<~~~~~E~~~G~~~SIGHT~UNSEEN~~~LOST~IN~THE~FOG~~~CYBER~CHESS~~~SPAG~~~|~~~~~~~>
< V R I O Software. We bring words to life! | ~~\ >
< T "We at Vertigo apologize for the delay. Sorry." | /~\ | >
<_WATCH for Avalon in early 1995!_____w...@uclink.berkeley.edu__|_\__/__>
Dan Shiovitz
Mathematical Institute, (01865) 2-73525 <nel...@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
>If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
>this competition, how about:
> (d) With source code made public, all to be archived together.
by releasing source (and I'm *always* tempted to cheat when source is available
:P), the authors could wait until after the contest to make the source
available?
>It might be fun if the entries were anonymous during the judging period.
Also a good idea.
> Graham Nelson
--
------------------------------------------------+--------------
The Grim Reaper ** scy...@u.washington.edu |
Dan Shiovitz ** sh...@cs.washington.edu | Aude
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Sapere
_Music of the Spheres_ : Coming Nov '95 |
------------------------------------------------+--------------
Gareth Rees
> If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
> this competition, how about [...]
That sounds good to me; but what about allowing AGT games as well (the
AGT interpreter seems quite portable)? I would suggest that votes be a
list of games you have played in order of preference, with the winner
calculated by single transferrable vote.
--
Gareth Rees
Gerry Kevin Wilson
Gareth Rees <gd...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>That sounds good to me; but what about allowing AGT games as well (the
>AGT interpreter seems quite portable)? I would suggest that votes be a
>list of games you have played in order of preference, with the winner
>calculated by single transferrable vote.
Hell, games written in C are fine as long as they can be played on Mac,
MSDOS, and Unix with little or no trouble (i.e. no forcing players to
compile it themselves.)
I still feel very strongly that if we are going the voting route at all,
then we require folks to play/read transcript and source of every entry.
In a 'real' contest, all entries are given consideration equally (or as
equally as possible). You wouldn't have a Mrs. America pageant judge
going to the bathroom during part of the judging and so missing several
of the entries altogether. This contest has the potential to degenerate
into a 'my programming language is bettter than yours' flamewar, when all
I'd like to see done is let everyone participate and give them all an
equal opportunity to win. If the potential voters don't feel that they
can be impartial, then we need to consider other venues of judging.
I stated before that an imperfect contest was better than none at all.
Let me amend to this: An unfair contest is worse than none at all. It
creates division in a community that is small enough as it is.
A judging system that gives an advantage to a game for reasons other than
merit is an unfair system, and should not be considered. Consider, if
players vote on the games the play, and aren't required to play them all,
then there's no basis for a contest at all. If a player doesn't like the
title you gave the game, he can just decide not to download it at all,
zing, you're out of it. If he thinks your game is too big to download,
zing, history. If he knows you and dislikes you personally, zing,
doesn't even have to look at the game. No, I am definitely pushing for
an 'equal time' system wherein all games are, if not given the absolute
same opportunity, at least get looked at by every judge.
Anyways, you may not agree with some of the things I've said above, but
the main one, that everybody should have an equal chance of winning, is
necessary if you want people to come back the next contest you hold.
Will they say, "Cool, I can't wait to try again." or will it be "Oh
geez. Last time nobody even played the TADS games, so why should I
bother this year?"
--
<~~~~T~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
< R I This space | ~~\ >
< E G intentionally left | /~\ | >
<_V____SOFTWARE_________...@uclink.berkeley.edu_|_\__/__>
Brian Lane
: If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
: (a) Closing date: end of August (I think this is more reasonable,
: and nicer since it means there will be games around on the net
: for the start of the next academic year);
Sounds reasonable! I may actually finish by then.
: (b) At most 8 locations (I've tried this one, since 8 is about the
: number of locations in Balances);
Actually I think the 2 hour play limit is more reasonable than a room
limit. I have several locations that are really just for decoration which
may push me over the limit. Removing them would affect the 'feel' of the
game.
: (c) Written in either TADS or Inform;
: (d) With source code made public, all to be archived together.
: Perhaps, as a gesture of reconciliation in this schismatic world, the
: winning entry could be ported to both systems (a game this size can
: usually be ported in a couple of evenings' work, I think).
: I suggest that at the end of August, or thereabouts, executables
: (e.g. Infocom format story files, or TADS executables for Macs and PCs)
: are lodged in a special directory at ftp.gmd.de for the world to play
: as much as it can stand, and that someone collect votes by email;
: or perhaps, rather than votes (which would only be appropriate if you'd
: played all the games thoroughly), scores out of 10.
Sounds good!
: It might be fun if the entries were anonymous during the judging period.
Why?
Paul Bowler
Are we starting to argue again or have I just had an huge deja-vue ?!
If this is going to get anywhere at all we have to come up with a
solution. One way is to segrate each system into its own category,
i.e. have an Inform, TADS, _and_ AGT competition. It doesn't make
things more complicated other than having three winners rather than
one. A fourth group called 'other' could be used for people wishing
to enter using more novel forms of creation.
Any good or am I going to be flamed yet again ?!!! (yes, I'm talking
to YOU whizzard !!)
Andrew C. Plotkin
> Are we starting to argue again or have I just had an huge deja-vue ?!
>
> If this is going to get anywhere at all we have to come up with a
> solution. One way is to segrate each system into its own category,
> i.e. have an Inform, TADS, _and_ AGT competition. It doesn't make
> things more complicated other than having three winners rather than
> one. A fourth group called 'other' could be used for people wishing
> to enter using more novel forms of creation.
I dislike this. This is a competition of game design. I don't want to
not be compared with other people's work because of implementation
choice.
I'd go with the suggestion of a voting system that doesn't require
everyone to play every game. It can be done fairly (well, with the
unfairness distributed fairly. :-) The Hugo Awards work like this, for
example.
Hm, put it this way: clearly it is impossible that everyone be able to
play every game. But I don't think a transcript fairly represents a
game. So we *have* to use such a voting system.
Oh, and if I may supply some Halon: I will be working on a short game,
hoping to be completed by the end of the summer, *regardless* of
whether a contest gets organized. I humbly suggest that everyone who's
planning to enter do the same. If we don't have the First Annual I-F
Competition, we'll have the First Annual Tournee of I-F, and damn the
prizes (which were nominal anyway, fer Chrissake!)
Neil Demause
: Mathematical Institute, (01865) 2-73525 <nel...@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
: > If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
: That sounds good to me; but what about allowing AGT games as well (the
: AGT interpreter seems quite portable)? I would suggest that votes be a
: list of games you have played in order of preference, with the winner
: calculated by single transferrable vote.
Uh, people, I thought the whole problem with AGT was that it won't run on
newer Macs (i.e., anything from the past five years or so).
Aside from that, I heartily endorse Graham's suggestions.
russ...@wanda.pond.com
Gareth Rees <gd...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
}Mathematical Institute, (01865) 2-73525 <nel...@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
}> If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
}> this competition, how about [...]
}
}That sounds good to me; but what about allowing AGT games as well
Gaak!
} (the AGT interpreter seems quite portable)?
Not IMO.
Jason Dyer
: Paul Bowler <Pa...@mdown.demon.co.uk> writes:
: Hm, put it this way: clearly it is impossible that everyone be able to
: play every game. But I don't think a transcript fairly represents a
: game. So we *have* to use such a voting system.
Why is it impossible? I doubt there will be that many entries...
--
Jason Dyer - jd...@indirect.com
John Holder
] If I might presume to suggest that we have a consensus on rules for
] this competition, how about:
Add: An unlimited number of entries allowed. (Unlikely to be a necessary rule,
I know.)
As far as entries go, I will strive to play anything that will compile on
my DEC Alpha running UNIX, or on my SPARCstation. I know TADS and Inform
work, and I don't mind downloading and compiling anything that will be
required to play other systems. If I have to, I'll even use a PC. Now,
let's stop arguing about systems of choice and get to work on some entries!
__ __
__/\_\ John Holder - jho...@nmsu.edu /_/\__
/\_\/_/ Computer Science - New Mexico State University \_\/_/\
\/_/\_\ I Brew the Beer I drink! /_/\_\/
\/_/ Hmmm... Let's brew up a good adventure, shall we? \_\/
Mark Jefferys
In article <3pce07$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>, whiz...@uclink.berkeley.edu
(Gerry Kevin Wilson) wrote:
% I still feel very strongly that if we are going the voting route at all,
% then we require folks to play/read transcript and source of every entry.
If there are too many entries, this may make judging impossible for more
than a select few.
% Consider, if
% players vote on the games the play, and aren't required to play them all,
% then there's no basis for a contest at all. If a player doesn't like the
% title you gave the game, he can just decide not to download it at all,
% zing, you're out of it. If he thinks your game is too big to download,
% zing, history. If he knows you and dislikes you personally, zing,
% doesn't even have to look at the game.
This isn't really true. As long as we know which games each judge
examined, this problem can be avoided. We only need to ensure that each
game has enough ratings to dilute individual bias.
For example:
Suppose each judge rates each game tried from 1 to 5. We could average
all the ratings for a particular game, ranking them by highest average.
The fact that some games have more ratings than others won't help (or
hinder) them.
Of course, this won't stop someone from rating your game badly because
they don't like you. There is something to be said for anonymity.
Mark
Magnus Olsson
Mark Jefferys <mjef...@reed.edu> wrote:
>[Deactivating lurking device.]
>
>In article <3pce07$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>, whiz...@uclink.berkeley.edu
>(Gerry Kevin Wilson) wrote:
>
>% I still feel very strongly that if we are going the voting route at all,
>% then we require folks to play/read transcript and source of every entry.
>
>If there are too many entries, this may make judging impossible for more
>than a select few.
I have no idea of how many entries there'll be: maybe five, maybe 25,
probably less than 50. Playing 10 or 20 adventure games, let alone 50,
is certainly not a trivial undertaking, even if they are quite small.
I've seen the size requirement "max an hour to solve" mentioned. This
may be possible if it means "max one hour for an _experienced_ player,
but a beginner may need days for a single puzzle. Maybe the judges
should get walkthroughs for all games after, say, a week, to ensure
they don't get stuck (and, believe me, with amateur-written games
there will be the occasional "guess-what-the-author-is-thinking
puzzle"?
One idea I have to speed up the process while ensuring fairness is to
distribute the games randomly among the judges. For example, if there
are 20 entries and 25 judges, each game could be assigned to 5
different judges, and each judge would be given four games to rate.
He/she would be required to rate all of these, and none of the others.
> Suppose each judge rates each game tried from 1 to 5. We could average
>all the ratings for a particular game, ranking them by highest average.
>The fact that some games have more ratings than others won't help (or
>hinder) them.
This could alos be a possible scheme - provided every game is rated by
at least one judge. The problem would be bad statistics - som egames
may end up being played by only one or two judges, while others might
be played by everyone and hence receive a more "average" score.
>Of course, this won't stop someone from rating your game badly because
>they don't like you. There is something to be said for anonymity.
Definitely!
I propose that each entry be signed with a pseudonym (for copyright
reasons - I wouldn't be very keen on releasing a completely anonymous
copy of my game) and that only the organizer (who is not allowed to
judge) know the true names of the authors. I'm probably going to
add a PGP signature to my code as well, so I can prove afterwards that
it's really mine [What? Me paranoid? :-)].
Ben Chalmers
erky...@CMU.EDU ("Andrew C. Plotkin") wrote:
> Paul Bowler <Pa...@mdown.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Are we starting to argue again or have I just had an huge deja-vue ?!
> >
> > If this is going to get anywhere at all we have to come up with a
> > solution. One way is to segrate each system into its own category,
> > i.e. have an Inform, TADS, _and_ AGT competition. It doesn't make
> > things more complicated other than having three winners rather than
> > one. A fourth group called 'other' could be used for people wishing
> > to enter using more novel forms of creation.
>
> I dislike this. This is a competition of game design. I don't want to
> not be compared with other people's work because of implementation
> choice.
How about choosing a winner from each of the four categories, then choosing
an overall winner based on the number of votes from people that use all
three systems or something. I however stand by the view that there is more
to a game than how well it plays, DOOM would never have become popular if
it only played on an Acorn computer - portability of games is a factor.
Alternatively we could choose a winner from each category, port each game
to every other system and vote for an overall winner after that. (I'm sure
since it was sort of his idea Grahem won't mind porting them all to Inform :-)
Ben
--
Lotsa Luv b...@bench.demon.co.uk-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
= In your heart you know its real... =
- Squiggle (the author formerly known as Terry Pratchett) -
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
... No artist sees reality, if he did he wouldn't be an artist.
Mark Jefferys
% > Suppose each judge rates each game tried from 1 to 5. We could average
% >all the ratings for a particular game, ranking them by highest average.
% >The fact that some games have more ratings than others won't help (or
% >hinder) them.
%
% This could alos be a possible scheme - provided every game is rated by
% at least one judge. The problem would be bad statistics - som egames
% may end up being played by only one or two judges, while others might
% be played by everyone and hence receive a more "average" score.
Exactly. This is what I meant by "we only need to ensure that each
game has enough ratings to dilute individual bias." I was thinking of
more than one rating for each game, though.
Each judge could be provided a randomized list of the games with
instructions to play them in order. The judge could skip games that won't
work on his/her system, and play as many or as few as desired. If any
games still get too few ratings, they can be given to a few more judges to
be rated.
Mark
M. Sean Molley
probably already been debated, but I fail to understand why the entrants
cannot also vote. Clearly, if everyone voted for his own game, things
might get a bit out of hand -- but IF authors tend to be a fairly
self-deprecating lot (Steve Meretzky and Whizzard excepted, of course ;)
If you want to ensure that every game will be rated at least a few times,
why not require everyone who enters a game to also rate every other game
that is written using the same system that author used? So if I were to
submit a TADS game, I would also have to rate every other TADS game. If
I chose, I could also play and rate the Inform/Alan/native C/whatever games.
Also, I see no reason to use a numerical rating system. Everyone has a
different idea of what each individual "point" represents. I much prefer
the thought of everyone having to choose three favorite games, in no
particular order. The game which gets the most total votes wins. If two
or more games get the same number of votes, they tie. I mean, it's not
like there is anything at stake here; the idea is just to encourage
people to write and play some new stuff in the near future, right? Or,
if you absolutely must have a tiebreaker, have each person send in their
three favorite games and mark one of them with an asterisk as "the best
of the best". That would be the tiebreaker -- the game which was chosen
by the most people as the best of the three voted for.
Of course, people will have to be on the honor system as to whether or
not they actually play all of the games for their system. And each entry
ought to be anonymized, at least until after the contest. I don't care
whether source code is released or not -- but I think the games all ought
to be freeware, and when the contest's over, an archive/compilation ought
to be put on ftp.gmd.de and we ought to publicize it in various computer
game groups on the net as being available. Might encourage a few people
to play something other than The Space King's Leisure Police Hero XVIII.
Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
Sean
----
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he
is a tolerable sub-human who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not
make messes in the house." -- Robert Heinlein
K.J. Bracey
(JeffJetton) writes:
[...]
>First, on the issue of portability, I think requiring that the programs
>run on PCs and Macs is good enough, which pretty much means that either
>TADS or Inform be allowed. If the game can't run on, say, a Timex-Sinclair
>1000, then so be it. Not only do PCs and Macs cover about 90% of the
>platforms used for playing IF out there, they, in all likelihood, cover
>99% of the platforms used for *creating* IF, which is what this is about
>anyway.
I would agree for this competition, that it would be unfair to disallow
anything other than the use of Inform (which full portability effectively
requires). However, I really do feel that for text-based adventures
generally more effort should be made for portability, as they must surely be
the most easily portable kind of game. It is a shame that by using TADS many
authors are excluding part of their potential audience. What prospect is
there of TADS ports to other platforms? (I am thinking in particular of
Acorns, which by the very existence of Curses must surely account for more
than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
Otherwise, could I please urge potential authors to consider seriously the
portability benefits of Inform?
Kevin, who does not, and will not, own a PC or Mac
=====
Neil K. Guy
> [...] It is a shame that by using TADS many
>authors are excluding part of their potential audience. [...]
Hm. Perhaps. But for me portability isn't my main interest. I write
in TADS because I happen to like it, it does what I want and because I
can create a gigantic game with ease. I'm not doing it to make money
or reach vast audiences, so it doesn't bother me at all that a few
people out there (who don't have a Mac, a PC or a UNIX box) won't be
able to use my game. Whenever it's done... My point being simply that
different people have different priorities.
> [...] (I am thinking in particular of
>Acorns, which by the very existence of Curses must surely account for more
>than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
Doubtful, to be honest. Outside of the UK nobody has ever heard of
Acorns. Aside from botanists.
- Neil K.
--
49N 16' 123W 7' / Vancouver, BC, Canada / n_k...@sfu.ca
Ben Chalmers
ne...@malibu.sfu.ca (Neil K. Guy) wrote:
> kjb...@phx.cam.ac.uk (K.J. Bracey) writes:
>
> > [...] It is a shame that by using TADS many
> >authors are excluding part of their potential audience. [...]
>
> Hm. Perhaps. But for me portability isn't my main interest. I write
> in TADS because I happen to like it, it does what I want and because I
> can create a gigantic game with ease. I'm not doing it to make money
> or reach vast audiences, so it doesn't bother me at all that a few
> people out there (who don't have a Mac, a PC or a UNIX box) won't be
> able to use my game. Whenever it's done... My point being simply that
> different people have different priorities.
I would tend to agree with you on this. Personally I think Inform is a lovely
language to use. Tads is (in theory) almost as portable as Inform and I would
never hold it against anyone who chose to write games using it. I would just
be upset that I couldn't play the game.
>
> > [...] (I am thinking in particular of
> >Acorns, which by the very existence of Curses must surely account for more
> >than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
>
> Doubtful, to be honest. Outside of the UK nobody has ever heard of
> Acorns. Aside from botanists.
OK <Acorn PR mode on>
Acorns exist in a variety of niche markets around the world. Most commonly
Acorn are found in education (especially in the UK although also in Australia
and New Zealand). The Acorn is treated as a professional DTP system in
Germany and also is quite popular in Holland and Scandanavian countries.
Acorns can also be found in education in Canada and are slowly appearing in
the USA due to a powerful score-writing package which impresses profesional
musicians.
Also, a large percentage of Acorn owners have access to a copy of Inform
since it has been distributed on the cover of the most popular Acorn magazine
in the UK.
<PR mode off>
Just because a computer isn't popular doesn't mean it should be ignored.
People that program in Inform are therefore doing a service to all the systems
you suggest _and_ to people with Psions, Acorns, and other computers able to
run the games.
Ben
--
Lotsa Luv b...@bench.demon.co.uk-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
= In your heart you know its real... =
- Squiggle (the author formerly known as Terry Pratchett) -
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
... There's no elevator to success. You have to take the stairs.
Jonathan Badger
>First, on the issue of portability, I think requiring that the programs
>run on PCs and Macs is good enough, which pretty much means that either
>TADS or Inform be allowed. If the game can't run on, say, a Timex-Sinclair
>1000, then so be it. Not only do PCs and Macs cover about 90% of the
>platforms used for playing IF out there, they, in all likelihood, cover
>99% of the platforms used for *creating* IF, which is what this is about
>anyway.
Well, since you are from American On-line, your ignorance may be
excusable, but I'd say close to a majority of us on Usenet prefer UNIX
to any bitty box O/S, and TADS and Inform run on most UNIX systems, while
other systems don't.
Brian Lane
: > [...] (I am thinking in particular of
: >Acorns, which by the very existence of Curses must surely account for more
: >than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
: Doubtful, to be honest. Outside of the UK nobody has ever heard of
: Acorns. Aside from botanists.
Hmm, Acorns. Isn't that the computer that grows on trees? :>
Personally I think all this arguing is silly. People should write using
the language that lets them create freely and effectivly. I have a new cdrom
here (Its an interactive CD-ROM for Jewel Cave National Park. It runs on MAC
and on PC. A programmer could have written the program, created the
graphics, made it portable, etc. Except it was created by a Graphic Artist
using software that allows him to focus on the presentation of the
information instead of the implementation.
Of course in IF we still have to implement things, but it is alot easier
than having to write your own parser in 'c' or fortran or whatever.
Neil Demause
: Acorns can also be found in education in Canada and are slowly appearing in
: the USA due to a powerful score-writing package which impresses profesional
: musicians.
: Also, a large percentage of Acorn owners have access to a copy of Inform
: since it has been distributed on the cover of the most popular Acorn magazine
: in the UK.
: Just because a computer isn't popular doesn't mean it should be ignored.
: People that program in Inform are therefore doing a service to all the systems
: you suggest _and_ to people with Psions, Acorns, and other computers able to
: run the games.
The obvious solution is somebody needs to port TADS to the Acorn.
Any takers? We TADS users will revere you like a god, and maybe
Whizzard'll even throw in a discount coupon.
r. n. dominick
: authors are excluding part of their potential audience. What prospect is
: there of TADS ports to other platforms? (I am thinking in particular of
: than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
: portability benefits of Inform?
TADS has been ported to plenty of Unix-based platforms -- Linux, MIPS,
Ultrix, &c -- and, last I heard, there was someone working on an Acorn
port. There's a file at ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/tads
called If-TADS-Does-Not-Run-On-Your-Machine or something like that that
details how you can find out about porting TADS to whatever OS you please.
One thing I worry about about using Inform for IF ... well, if I ever
decide to sell (gasp!) a bit of IF, either as a "sequel" you get when
registering or as a plain commercial product (locally advertised or
whatever) -- well, what are the legalities of commercially distributing a
game derived on a copyrighted structure (ZCode)? What are the chances
I'll be able to give out ZIP in the .ZIP file or on the diskette of this
game? How many computer novices will be turned off by or totaly unable to
go and find an interpreter on their own -- even if I give an
address/upload the interpreter to the same place/whatever? Do I really
want to write my own run-time for Zcode?
TADS comes with all that. The distribution options are clear in it's
licensing agreement. If I have a question about distribution in a
commercial sense, I know who to contact -- M. Roberts.
Don't get me wrong... I like Inform. I like it a lot. I worked on porting
it to the PC, before Bob Newell's efforts in that arena far outstripped
my own and I gave up and just compiled it for my personal use. My name's
in the credits to "Curses", at which I was surprised and oddly gratified.
I cannot decide whether to use TADS or Inform for the competition (maybe
I'll finally do my proposed "Write a game that's the same in both systems
and write a paper about the dfferences" project at the same time), but my
choice for a shareware or commercial game would be clear -- TADS.
Michael Boissy
: OK <Acorn PR mode on>
: Acorns exist in a variety of niche markets around the world. Most commonly
: Acorn are found in education (especially in the UK although also in Australia
: and New Zealand). The Acorn is treated as a professional DTP system in
: Germany and also is quite popular in Holland and Scandanavian countries.
: Acorns can also be found in education in Canada and are slowly appearing in
: the USA due to a powerful score-writing package which impresses profesional
: musicians.
: Also, a large percentage of Acorn owners have access to a copy of Inform
: since it has been distributed on the cover of the most popular Acorn magazine
: in the UK.
: <PR mode off>
: Just because a computer isn't popular doesn't mean it should be ignored.
: People that program in Inform are therefore doing a service to all the systems
: you suggest _and_ to people with Psions, Acorns, and other computers able to
: run the games.
: Ben
Commodore computers are FAR more wide spread that the Acorn will ever
dream. However, people in this area have seen fit to totally write off
the Commodore computers. There is NO way that any of the recently
written inform or TADS IF games can be played on a C=. There is no
reason that any or all of them could not be played on a C=128. If I had
the knowledge I would write an interpreter myself. The 64, I belive is
were mainstream IF made its mark and yet has been totally abandoned. I
don't really want to hear complaints about you not being about to play
games on your Acorn.
Mike
russ...@wanda.pond.com
}One thing I worry about about using Inform for IF ... well, if I ever
}decide to sell (gasp!) a bit of IF, either as a "sequel" you get when
}registering or as a plain commercial product (locally advertised or
}whatever) -- well, what are the legalities of commercially distributing a
}game derived on a copyrighted structure (ZCode)?
What copyright? Any copyrighted work of Infocom's describing the
Z-Machine has never been published, so you can't violate that. There's
no patent on the Z-Machine.
}What are the chances
}I'll be able to give out ZIP in the .ZIP file or on the diskette of this
}game?
Ask the author. Right now you're just spreading Fear, Uncertainty,
and Doubt.
Neil K. Guy
>Well, since you are from American On-line, your ignorance may be
>excusable, but I'd say close to a majority of us on Usenet prefer UNIX
>to any bitty box O/S, and TADS and Inform run on most UNIX systems, while
>other systems don't.
Hm. That's not the friendliest remark I've ever read.
I fear r.a.i-f is degenerating into one of those pointless religious
OS wars of which Usenet is so often vulnerable...
Jonathan Badger
>bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger) writes:
>>Well, since you are from American On-line, your ignorance may be
>>excusable, but I'd say close to a majority of us on Usenet prefer UNIX
>>to any bitty box O/S, and TADS and Inform run on most UNIX systems, while
>>other systems don't.
> Hm. That's not the friendliest remark I've ever read.
> I fear r.a.i-f is degenerating into one of those pointless religious
>OS wars of which Usenet is so often vulnerable...
No, not really. It's just when some AOL newbie makes a statement like
"99% of all people interested in interactive fiction use a Mac or PC", it
really *needs* to be corrected.
John Holder
] One thing I worry about about using Inform for IF ... well, if I ever
] registering or as a plain commercial product (locally advertised or
] whatever) -- well, what are the legalities of commercially distributing a
] game derived on a copyrighted structure (ZCode)?
Well, none. And Graham leaves you all rights to the code you create
with Inform. You see, the games in the code format are copyright, not
the code format itself. Since you are not duplicating Infocom games and
distributing the parts that are copyrighted, you have no problem.
] What are the chances
] I'll be able to give out ZIP in the .ZIP file or on the diskette of this
] game?
ZIP is freeware. Just include a file that says so.
] How many computer novices will be turned off by or totaly unable to
] go and find an interpreter on their own -- even if I give an
] address/upload the interpreter to the same place/whatever? Do I really
] want to write my own run-time for Zcode?
No, ZIP is freeware. (repeated for those who haven't been paying attention)
] TADS comes with all that. The distribution options are clear in it's
] licensing agreement. If I have a question about distribution in a
] commercial sense, I know who to contact -- M. Roberts.
Yes, and with inform, you can contact Graham. (Don;t get me wrong - I am a
registered user of TADS. But I like and prompt all things freeware, and
because Inform is, I like it better)
] Don't get me wrong... I like Inform. I like it a lot. I worked on porting
] it to the PC, before Bob Newell's efforts in that arena far outstripped
] my own and I gave up and just compiled it for my personal use. My name's
] in the credits to "Curses", at which I was surprised and oddly gratified.
] I cannot decide whether to use TADS or Inform for the competition (maybe
] I'll finally do my proposed "Write a game that's the same in both systems
] and write a paper about the dfferences" project at the same time), but my
] choice for a shareware or commercial game would be clear -- TADS.
Fine. use it. ;^)
__ __
__/\_\ John Holder - jho...@nmsu.edu /_/\__
/\_\/_/ Computer Science - New Mexico State University \_\/_/\
\/_/\_\ I Brew the Beer I drink! /_/\_\/
\/_/ WWW: http://speedracer.nmsu.edu/~jholder \_\/
Andrew C. Plotkin
> One thing I worry about about using Inform for IF ... well, if I ever
> decide to sell (gasp!) a bit of IF, either as a "sequel" you get when
> registering or as a plain commercial product (locally advertised or
> whatever) -- well, what are the legalities of commercially distributing a
> address/upload the interpreter to the same place/whatever? Do I really
> want to write my own run-time for Zcode?
ZIP is freeware. XZip is freeware, and I wrote it (except for the code
I lifted from ZIP); I would be thrilled to death if you bundled it
with a commercial text game. There are free ports of ZIP to
everything.
I'm (slowly) working on a Mac port of XZip, if that makes any sense;
it will have the capacity to make stand-alone Mac executables. I'm
explicitly including a statement that a stand-alone executable of your
Z-code game will be yours to do with as you want.
Ben Chalmers
bl...@eskimo.com (Brian Lane) wrote:
> Neil K. Guy (ne...@malibu.sfu.ca) wrote:
>
> : > [...] (I am thinking in particular of
> : >Acorns, which by the very existence of Curses must surely account for more
> : >than a mere 1% of the platforms used for creating IF).
>
> : Doubtful, to be honest. Outside of the UK nobody has ever heard of
> : Acorns. Aside from botanists.
>
> Hmm, Acorns. Isn't that the computer that grows on trees? :>
If only, then everyone would use them, and I would have some nice software
to play with :-)
>
> Personally I think all this arguing is silly. People should write using
> the language that lets them create freely and effectivly. I have a new cdrom
> here (Its an interactive CD-ROM for Jewel Cave National Park. It runs on MAC
> and on PC. A programmer could have written the program, created the
> graphics, made it portable, etc. Except it was created by a Graphic Artist
> using software that allows him to focus on the presentation of the
> information instead of the implementation.
>
> Of course in IF we still have to implement things, but it is alot easier
> than having to write your own parser in 'c' or fortran or whatever.
>
> Brian
Sounds perfectly reasonable. I certainly don't mind how people write their
IF (I hope I havn't given any other impression). Naturally I will only use
software that I can run on my Acorn system, but thats my choice and needent
particularly worry anyone else. I honestly think that when working in a media
where everything is done for you (like IF) portablility should be taken into
consideration if you want others to work their way through your worlds,
however TADS is almost as portable as Z Code and is a perfectly reasonable
choice, as is writing in C (Which can be even more portable than Z Code).
If you do write in Inform, it will make me happier, but to be honest it is the
art that counts, not the media it is done in.
Ben
--
Lotsa Luv b...@bench.demon.co.uk-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
= In your heart you know its real... =
- Squiggle (the author formerly known as Terry Pratchett) -
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
... Censorship is something ÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛ I do ÛÛÛ like!
JeffJetton
been flamed. Egads! I apologize for dragging everyone through this again,
but there are points that need to be mentioned.
bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger) originally wrote:
>Well, since you are from American On-line, your ignorance may be
>excusable, but I'd say close to a majority of us on Usenet prefer UNIX
>to any bitty box O/S, and TADS and Inform run on most UNIX
>systems, while other systems don't.
To which ne...@newsserver.sfu.ca (Neil K. Guy) replied (thanks!):
> Hm. That's not the friendliest remark I've ever read.
> I fear r.a.i-f is degenerating into one of those pointless religious
>OS wars of which Usenet is so often vulnerable...
Causing bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger) to shoot back:
>No, not really. It's just when some AOL newbie makes a statement
>like "99% of all people interested in interactive fiction use a Mac
>or PC", it really *needs* to be corrected.
True, Mr. Badger, my post was hastily written, and was in need of
correction. I was in fact referring only to the so-called "bitty boxes"
when I made my blanket statement. Of course plenty of folks out there use
Unix, and, as you mentioned, they can run either TADS or Inform just as
easily.
What saddens me, however, is your assumption that I am an ignorant newbie
not because of the content of my post, but because it was posted from AOL.
On the Internet, you can't tell a person's race, creed, color, age, height
or weight. Despite this, some people *still* will find an equally baseless
reason to prejudge others. It's called bigotry, and it's just as wrong in
r.a.i-f. as it is in the real world.
I hope I have gotten the wrong impression from you, but if this is what
you intended in your posts, your ignorance is *not* excusable.
- Jeff
Brian Lane
: If you do write in Inform, it will make me happier, but to be honest it is the
: art that counts, not the media it is done in.
Reminds me of my favorite(or one of) Stephen King saying:
"It is the tale, not he who tells it."
Jonathan Badger
>True, Mr. Badger, my post was hastily written, and was in need of
>correction. I was in fact referring only to the so-called "bitty boxes"
>when I made my blanket statement. Of course plenty of folks out there use
>Unix, and, as you mentioned, they can run either TADS or Inform just as
>easily.
>What saddens me, however, is your assumption that I am an ignorant newbie
>not because of the content of my post, but because it was posted from AOL.
>On the Internet, you can't tell a person's race, creed, color, age, height
>or weight. Despite this, some people *still* will find an equally baseless
>reason to prejudge others. It's called bigotry, and it's just as wrong in
>r.a.i-f. as it is in the real world.
>I hope I have gotten the wrong impression from you, but if this is what
>you intended in your posts, your ignorance is *not* excusable.
Ah, but I didn't assume you are ignorant because you were on AOL. You
made a statement that could be percieved as ignorant in respect to the
existence of machines that were not not personal computers, and I
correlated with the fact that such statements often come from AOL
members. No prejudgement was needed.
Also you may wish to reflect that sterotypes are not created in a
vacuum. If a large number of people in a group did not act like the
sterotype, then where did the sterotype come from? This is true both
of positive sterotypes (Korean immigrants do well in school) and
negative (Inner city youth are gang members).
The danger in sterotypes comes not from the sterotype itself but from
confusing "many" with "most or all", which ignores those who do not fit
the rule.
Gareth Rees
> However, people in this area have seen fit to totally write off the
> Commodore computers.
Not true. There is a free Infocom interpreter for the Commodore Amiga,
so you can play Inform games on that.
Infocom released some version 3 games for the Commodore 64 (at least
Zork I, Zork II, Zork III, Deadline, Starcross and Suspended), so if you
can get hold of one of them, you can probably patch the interpreter so
that it will play Inform's .z3 story-files (for example, Release 10 of
"Curses").
I don't know if Infocom ever wrote a version 5 interpreter for the
Commodore 128. If they did, then you will be able to patch it so that
you can play Inform's .z5 story files.
--
Gareth Rees
David Kinder
: Zork I, Zork II, Zork III, Deadline, Starcross and Suspended), so if you
: can get hold of one of them, you can probably patch the interpreter so
: that it will play Inform's .z3 story-files (for example, Release 10 of
: "Curses").
In fact they released all the version 3 games for the c64, plus Border Zone
and Sherlock. The 6 you list were also released in about 83 by CBM in cut-down
packaging.
: I don't know if Infocom ever wrote a version 5 interpreter for the
: Commodore 128. If they did, then you will be able to patch it so that
: you can play Inform's .z5 story files.
I think there were C128 versions of Trinity and Bureaucracy, and definitely
a c64 version 5 interpreter. I wouldn't like to try to fit Curses on one
of those old 5.25" disks, though. Stationfall was slow enough as it was - type
in the wrong thing and the disk drive would clunk and whir for about 30 seconds
before the c64 printed anything. Them were the days etc., etc.
David
Charles Briscoe-Smith
Jonathan Badger <bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>In article <3p5dpa$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jeffj...@aol.com
>(JeffJetton) writes:
>
>>First, on the issue of portability, I think requiring that the programs
>>run on PCs and Macs is good enough, which pretty much means that either
>>TADS or Inform be allowed. If the game can't run on, say, a Timex-Sinclair
>>1000, then so be it. Not only do PCs and Macs cover about 90% of the
>>platforms used for playing IF out there, they, in all likelihood, cover
>>99% of the platforms used for *creating* IF, which is what this is about
>>anyway.
>
>excusable, but I'd say close to a majority of us on Usenet prefer UNIX
>to any bitty box O/S, and TADS and Inform run on most UNIX systems, while
>other systems don't.
From the results of a recent Internet survey:
Computer hardware type
----------------------
IBM PC compatibles account for more than half of all
computers on the Internet. Macintoshes come in second,
with about 10%, which is about what we would have
expected.
Hardware on the Internet
IBM PC type 54.2%
Macintoshes 10.4%
other PC type 9.4%
workstations 8.6%
diskless bitmap workstations 6.0%
routers 1.2%
minicomputers 1.1%
fileservers 0.8%
bridges 0.8%
mainframes 0.1%
supercomputers 0.0%
other hardware 7.4%
Operating system
----------------
MS-Windows is the most popular operating system on the
Internet, followed by MS-DOS alone, MacOS, and UNIX. This
is the order of usage of these operating systems in the
world at large, so it is what we expected.
All the other operating systems appear in tiny
proportions. Windows/NT still hasn't taken over the world
and shows no sign of doing so; it comes in behind VMS, and
not far ahead of CMS. OS/2 appears to be showing some
increased share since the previous year.
Operating systems on the Internet
MS-Windows 51.0%
MS-DOS alone 17.5%
MacOS 13.8%
UNIX 12.7%
OS/2 1.2%
VMS 0.9%
Windows/NT 0.5%
router OS 0.3%
CMS 0.0%
other OS 2.1%
Of course, it may be true that a majority of the *people* on the
Internet use UNIX, since there are probably many PCs running DOS which
only have one user, while each UNIX computer probably has many users.
It's hard to know.
It might be better not to make sweeping generalisations one way or the
other...
Anyway, I've looked through GMD to see how portable a few systems are.
I've chosen what I think are the most popular systems. Here's a
summary:
TADS: Source not available.
Binaries for Amiga, NeXT, Atari ST, DEC Mips, MS-DOS,
Linux/386, Macintosh, SGI Irix, Solaris, SunOS,
Sun 3, OS/2.
Inform: Compiler and interpreter C source available.
Compiler binaries for Amiga, Macintosh, Archimedes, Atari ST,
MS-DOS, OS/2.
Interpreter binaries for Apple II, Archimedes, Atari ST, OS/2,
Amiga, Macintosh, MS-DOS, MS-Windows,
Psion series3.
Linux and UNIX/X11 C source code.
Build your own if you have a C compiler.
AGT: Compiler and interpreter Turbo Pascal source available.
Binaries for MS-DOS, MS-Windows, Amiga, Atari ST.
Build your own if you have a Turbo-like Pascal compiler.
AdvSys: Compiler and interpreter C source available.
Binaries available for MS-DOS, Macintosh.
I've seen ports for other machines, but they are not available
from GMD, it seems.
Build your own if you have a C compiler.
Alan: Source not available.
Binaries for Amiga, HP/UX, Macintosh, MS-DOS, Sun, VMS.
My opinions on this: Inform and AdvSys are the most portable, followed
by AGT, and the others aren't portable (well, not by the user). TADS
is the most widely ported, followed closely by Inform, then Alan, AGT
and AdvSys. If you consider (as I do) that C source code is
(practically) as good as a binary for most UNIX systems, then Inform is
the most widely ported.
Hopefully this will help some people decide which system they are
going to use.
--Charles
David Baggett
Darin Johnson <djoh...@tartarus.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Here's a question - how well does the dos version work under dos
>emulators?
Several people have told me they've run TADS without problems under SoftPC.
TADS source is not available on the net, but if you're going to do a viable
port you can get the source from Mike Roberts if you agree to sign a
nondisclosure agreement.
Dave Baggett
__
d...@ai.mit.edu ADVENTIONS: Kuul text adventures! Email for a catalog.
"Mr. Price: Please don't try to make things nice! The wrong notes are *right*."
--- Charles Ives (note to copyist on the autograph score of The Fourth of July)
Darin Johnson
...
> Operating system
How come these two don't add up? Ie, 54% have pc compatibles,
yet we get 69% using windows or dos. Macs were about 10%, yet
13% use MacOS... :-) Maybe the questions were different (ie,
hardware using on the internet versus os's used anywhere).
Sort of like those clueless articles that say "the first thing
required to get on the internet is a modem" (even though I suspect
only about half use a modem to do so).
> TADS: Source not available.
> Binaries for Amiga, NeXT, Atari ST, DEC Mips, MS-DOS,
> Linux/386, Macintosh, SGI Irix, Solaris, SunOS,
> Sun 3, OS/2.
Here's a question - how well does the dos version work under
dos emulators?
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
Gravity is a harsh mistress - The Tick
ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
: It might be better not to make sweeping generalisations one way or the
: other...
Yep. I'm on the net via a HP and a Sun by using a DOZe-PC as terminal.
But I take all the neat stuff and play/write at home on my AMIGA.
: AdvSys: Compiler and interpreter C source available.
: Binaries available for MS-DOS, Macintosh.
: I've seen ports for other machines, but they are not available
: from GMD, it seems.
For AMIGA it's on an older Fish-disc and, I think, on AmiNet. (I got it to
try out a small package first, and it still seems interesting and without
the monstrous language of the better writing systems, but the
documentation I got is, uh, short).
Ad Astra!
JuL
ler...@hp.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de / Lasset uns tagfahrten. Gar leicht ist das
J"urgen ''JuL'' Lerch < F"ahnlein aufgezogen, aber nur schwer in
\ Ehren wieder herabgeholet.
Magnus Olsson
<ler...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote:
>: AdvSys: Compiler and interpreter C source available.
>: Binaries available for MS-DOS, Macintosh.
>: I've seen ports for other machines, but they are not available
>: from GMD, it seems.
>
>try out a small package first, and it still seems interesting and without
>the monstrous language of the better writing systems, but the
>documentation I got is, uh, short).
For some more information about AdvSys, there's a well-written article
by the authorthat was published in BYTE sometime in 1986, I think.
The language is quite nice (if you like Lisp) and has a much "cleaner"
syntax than TADS, not to speak of Inform, but it's also pretty limited
compared to the newer systems. In particular, the parser is quite
limited. IMHO it's not quite up to the standard expected by today's IF
players. If you're serious about writing IF, there's really no serious
alternative to TADS and Inform (IMHO).
Erica Sadun's "One Hand Clapping" (available from GMD) was written in
AdvSys, BTW. It's a very nice game, but it suffers quite a lot from
the lousy parser. See my review in SPAG 5 for details.
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden
Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus...@ivab.se)
Old adresses (may still work): mag...@thep.lu.se, the...@selund.bitnet
PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request.
David Kinder
: TADS: Source not available.
: Binaries for Amiga, NeXT, Atari ST, DEC Mips, MS-DOS,
^^^^^
Hmm, not the latest (2.2) version. Is anyone doing anything about this?
David
Gareth Rees
> derived on a copyrighted structure (ZCode)?
It is not possible to copyright a data structure. It *is* possible to
patent such a thing, but the Z-machine has not been patented, so there
are no problems with writing games that use it. The ZIP interpreter is
freeware, so you can include a version of it in the distribution of your
game.
The relevant passage from the Inform manual is this:
A story file produced with the Inform compiler (and libraries) then
belongs to its author, and may be sold for profit if desired,
provided that its game banner contains the information that it was
compiled by Inform, and the Inform version number.
Which doesn't sound too onerous a restriction to me!
--
Gareth Rees
Gregory Riggs
I've been reading this group for about a year now, and I've decided
to delurk and share my experience in patching Commodore 64/128 Infocom
interpreters to run game files produced by Inform. Yes it can work,
but I ran into a few problems.
Warning!! The following is a bit technical and probably only of
interest to people familiar with the Specification of the Z-Machine.
Gareth Rees (gd...@cl.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: Infocom released some version 3 games for the Commodore 64 (at least
: Zork I, Zork II, Zork III, Deadline, Starcross and Suspended), so if you
: can get hold of one of them, you can probably patch the interpreter so
: that it will play Inform's .z3 story-files (for example, Release 10 of
: "Curses").
I did this about a year ago for a friend whose only computer was
a Commodore 128. I ran into a snag, however. The MoveFloatingObjects
routine in the VerbLib.h file caused the Commodore 64's .z3 interpreter
to crash. (Again, this was about a year ago, and the routine I'm
refering to has been greatly modified since then.) I traced the
problem down to the specific instruction i.found_in~=0. It turned out
that the Z-code assembly instruction get_prop would crash if the
object in question had more than one property value. I also had this
same problem with the Toyshop demo in the Cube_Class routine where
it used the instruction "print_addr e.name" This would assemble using
the get_prop instruction, and the cube object having more than one property
value for its name, would cause the interpreter to crash. After making
minor changes in the code to avoid get_prop, the Toyshop demo ran fine.
: I don't know if Infocom ever wrote a version 5 interpreter for the
: Commodore 128. If they did, then you will be able to patch it so that
: you can play Inform's .z5 story files.
Yes, they did make a .z5 version of Zork I that would run both on the
Commodore 64 and the Commodore 128. It used two single sided 5.25 inch
disks (or one double sided, both sides). I patched it so that you
could play Advent. The get_prop assembly instruction was no longer a
problem. It could now get the first property value of an object with
more than one property value.
However I did run into a differnt problem. Apparently the interpreter
would use the "Start of Code Area (Resident Size)" value from the header
to determine how much to load off of the first disk, before asking you to
insert the second disk. After experimentation, I determined that it
was using a "packed address" and not a byte address as advertised in
the Specification of the Z-Machine. After taking this into account, I
was able to get Advent to work okay. Well, it seemed to work okay,
I must admit I didn't do very much play testing.
I was considering trying to port Curses, however, it would have taken
a considerable amout of effort to try and figure out how the interpreter
maps the z-file onto the track & sectors of the floppy disk. Since
Advent was about the same size as Zork, I could determine this by
seeing how Zork I was laid out on the floppy. But since Curses is much
larger than Zork I, this 'trick' won't work.
Oh, I did patch the .z3 version of Curses, but I did not play test it.
I'm sure there is probably a get_prop lurking in there somewhere that
would crash it.
Since then, my friend got an Amiga, so I have lost interest in
patching Commodore 64/128 Infocom Interpreters. I have also given
away my own Commodore 128.
- Gregory Riggs
gr...@nmia.com
Gareth Rees
> [...] I traced the
This was of course a bug in the library sources; the code should have
been i.#found_in>0. The same bug accounted for the other errors you
cite.
--
Gareth Rees