Works that should NOT be done as IF [Humour] (well, a weak attempt at humour in any case)
Jonadab the Unsightly One
From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
another...
1984
The Bells
Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
Mein Kampf
Fox in Socks
War and Peace
Hamlet
Physical Interrogation Techniques
Dick and Jane
The Oxford English Dictionary
You Might Be a Redneck
r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
I've probably ommitted some entire categories
that belong on that list... but there's a
nice start, anyhow.
My comp prediction for next year, almost a whole
year in advance, is that some mor^H^H^H^Hone will
submit an attempt at one of the works mentioned
in this thread, or a parody thereof.
--
"Popularity and quality are orthogonal." -- jonadab
John Hill
One" <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
> The Bells
OTOH, someone should do Coney Island Baby.
> r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
Hah?
BrenBarn
>I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
>of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
>jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
>that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
>another...
>The Bells
You see the bells, bells, bells, bells, bells, bells, bells here.
#GET BELLS
Which do you mean, the bells, the bells, the bells, the bells, the bells, the
bells, or the bells?
>Dick and Jane
You see Dick here. You see Jane here. You see Dick run here. You see
Jane run here. You see Dick and Jane run here.
#GET JANE RUN
You can't "get jane run"! C'mon, the whole point of this is to teach GRAMMAR!
>Hamlet
Or how about Macbeth. . .
You see a dagger here.
#X DAGGER
The handle is toward your hand.
#COME, LET ME CLUTCH THEE
The come has better things to do than let me clutch thee.
--BrenBarn (Bren...@aol.com)
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
Paul O'Brian
> OTOH, someone should do Coney Island Baby.
> X ME
You are a young man in high school. You're a little too light to play
line-back, but you still want to play football for the coach.
--
Paul O'Brian obr...@colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
SPAG #22 is out, with a cornucopia of reviews and articles, including an
interview with Scott Adams! Check it out at http://www.sparkynet.com/spag
Branko Collin
Unsightly One) wrote:
>From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
>work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
>opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
>I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
>of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
>jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
>that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
>another...
[list snipped]
But what are the reasons? They would be interesting to know. Anybody
can make up a list. (One more so-called funny top ten list and I will
start shooting posters.)
>1984
That would make a great piece of IF. (Mental note: play Spider and
Web.)
>Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
A bit linear, but that should not be a problem, maybe even an
advantage. Very nice adventure for beginners who still have to learn
when red herrings are useful and when not.
>Mein Kampf
Apparently it is a very boring book. Therefor, it probably could use
some livening up in its new incarnation. There might be some legal
issues to be resolved, though: I read somewhere that the German state
Bayern (Bavaria) claims to have the copyrights on it.
>War and Peace
I am looking forward to the descriptions. A V127 game?
>Hamlet
Give me one reason why Graham Nelson should not try this!
>Physical Interrogation Techniques
I have felt for a long time that IF and its development systems are
perfect for instruction manuals. Well, maybe not perfect, but the best
thing so far. Helpdesks should be replaced by MUDs. Windows users get
less attack and defence points, period.
>The Oxford English Dictionary
The OED I have on my computer already benefits hugely from hypertext
(click on _any_ word), I think you're right here, a new version done
with Inform would not benefit significantly.
--
branko collin
"die liebe - schoen dass dieses thema auch ein
thema ist"
goldene abc der volksmusik
John D Evans
> work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
> opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
> I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
> that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
>
> The Bells
> Fox in Socks
> War and Peace
> Hamlet
> Physical Interrogation Techniques
> Dick and Jane
> The Oxford English Dictionary
> You Might Be a Redneck
> r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
>
> I've probably ommitted some entire categories
> that belong on that list... but there's a
> nice start, anyhow.
>
> My comp prediction for next year, almost a whole
> year in advance, is that some mor^H^H^H^Hone will
> submit an attempt at one of the works mentioned
> in this thread, or a parody thereof.
Why wait?
>LOOK
Cave Entrance
A barren hill rises before you, its face punctured by a gaping cave
mouth. Bones litter the surrounding area.
A small white rabbit is cleaning its paws here.
>X BONES
Old and bleached white by the elements. You notice small marks on
them, as of teeth.
The rabbit suddenly leaps through the air and fastens itself onto
your neck. You fall to the ground, bleeding profusely.
** You have died **
Would you like to RESTART, RESTORE a saved game, UNDO your last
move or QUIT?
>RUN AWAY
It's too late for that!
(Reverse psychology in action, eh?)
#!/usr/bin/perl # John Evans jo...@mit.edu http://www.mit.edu/~johne/
while(<STDIN>){if(/^\d+$/){$a=$b=$c=1;$_++;until($_==$b){if($_<$b){$_+=$a+=
2;}else{$b+=$c+=2;}}$b=($c-$a++)/2;print $b," ",$a+$b,"\n";}else{die"\n";}}
Carl Muckenhoupt
Unsightly One) wrote:
>1984
Oh, I don't know about that. It wouldn't be an adventure game in the
classical mold, certainly, but AMFV showed us how effective an
interactive dystopia can be, and Photopia showed us how an interactive
tragedy can be done well.
>Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
7th Level did a graphic adventure based on it. (Whether they *should*
have is another matter, of course...)
>Hamlet
Ever try "Castle Elsinore"? (Same comments as above apply.)
>Physical Interrogation Techniques
Oof.
OK, how about:
Crime and Punishment
Of Human Bondage
The Naked Lunch
The Tain Bo Cuailgne
The Screwtape Letters
Shogun (hee hee)
This is pretty hard. I keep thinking of things and then starting to
imagine how you could make an interesting game out of them.
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Rob Menke
> Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
It's been done. I remember playing this on my Apple ][ way back in
1980 or so...
What? Eamon doesn't count?
--
>GIVE COIN TO CHARON | Robert Menke
"So educated," giggles the voice in | r...@best.com
your ear... | http://www.best.com/~rgm/
Martin Julian DeMello
Thread-crossing, I remember a computer-based choose-your-own-adventure based
on Drake's voyages - the object was to second-guess Drake at several points
and the game would tell you the author's version of what might have
happened. The game itself was rather disappointing, since decisions didn't
propagate - everytime you diverged from Drake's path you were critiqued,
told what he chose to do instead, and set back on track; furthermore the
only way to get a perfect score was to pick what Drake did at each stage.
Still, the basic idea struck me as one of the better uses of the CYOA
format, and an example where it actually flowed better than IF would have in
terms of gameplay.
--
Martin DeMello
Carl Muckenhoupt
<mdem...@kennel.ruf.rice.edu> wrote:
>Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>> Mein Kampf
>
>Thread-crossing, I remember a computer-based choose-your-own-adventure based
>on Drake's voyages - the object was to second-guess Drake at several points
>and the game would tell you the author's version of what might have
>happened. The game itself was rather disappointing, since decisions didn't
>propagate - everytime you diverged from Drake's path you were critiqued,
>told what he chose to do instead, and set back on track; furthermore the
>only way to get a perfect score was to pick what Drake did at each stage.
Onj a vaguely related note, I remember thinking that one of the best
things about the Lucasarts graphic adventure based on "Indiana Jones
and the Last Crusade" was that, not only could you diverge to some
degree from what Indy did in the movie, you could actually do some
things *better* than he did in the movie. When I saw the movie, at
the very end, when the Grail has fallen into the crevice and Indy
can't quite reach it, I sat there saying to myself, "The Indiana Jones
I know from 'Raiders' would just flick his whip so that it wraps
around the Grail and snatch it up." It was quite satisfying to play
the game and actually do that.
Carl Muckenhoupt
>In article <39ea0f90...@news.bright.net>, Jonadab the Unsightly
>One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>
>> Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
>
>It's been done. I remember playing this on my Apple ][ way back in
>1980 or so...
>
>What? Eamon doesn't count?
Come to think of it, there was an AGT game based on the Eamon module.
(With lots of combat removed and puzzles added, of course.)
Philipp Lenssen
39ea0f90...@news.bright.net...
>..
> I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
> that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
I wonder if there has ever been a piece of IF, where you play an evil (yet
*maybe* evily charismatic) person. And I don't mean a gentleman thief. Think
of Humbert Humbert.
Joe Mason
>
>From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
>work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
>opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
>of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
>jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
>that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
>another...
Flowers for Algernon
Wait...
Joe
Joe Mason
wrote:
>The Screwtape Letters
This'd be a great gimmick. (You play Wormwood, of course.) It'd be a bit of
a twisted take on it, though.
Joe
Generic Internet User #27892
Animal Farm
While 1984 would make good IF if done right, Animal Farm would just suck.
Brave New World
No way in hell
Mother Night
Just too damn hard to convert
Red Hat Linux for Dummies
Well.... I don't know... A IF Linux tutorial might work...
The Dilbert (Insert Word Here)
Only if you throw the book out the window
--
So Sez DarKrow, at least
John Elliott
Something like Adam Cadre's idea in
<http://adamcadre.ac/content/remains.txt>:
] Why have the PC hear voices from an NPC telling him what to do, when
] he *already* hears and obeys commands from an outside source -- the
] player?
with Wormwood/the player fighting for control of the PC? Could be
interesting.
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
dgr...@cs.csuabk.edu
> Some more bad IF Ideas:
> Animal Farm
> While 1984 would make good IF if done right, Animal Farm would just suck.
A big problem would be how to put the player into the story. It's not
very easy to follow any one hero through the story. Well, maybe Benjamin,
but he doesn't seem to do much of anything besides make cynical comments.
> Brave New World
> No way in hell
I've toyed around with this one a bit from the perspectives of the Savage,
Barnard, Helmholtz, and Lenina. It doesn't seem that impossible.
> Mother Night
> Just too damn hard to convert
> Red Hat Linux for Dummies
> Well.... I don't know... A IF Linux tutorial might work...
Code an NPC which has the capability of killing you if you do something
stupid. One way to win would be to install NetBSD. Sounds like this
would be better as a dark comedy.
> The Dilbert (Insert Word Here)
> Only if you throw the book out the window
This one sounds like it might come across as similar to Buroucracy.
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csubak.edu
Joe Mason
>> The Dilbert (Insert Word Here)
>> Only if you throw the book out the window
>
>This one sounds like it might come across as similar to Buroucracy.
See "Promoted!" (with or without !, I can't recall), "Little Blue Men", and -
um - that other one in the office, whose title I can't recall.
Joe
Passenger Pigeon
>
> From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
> work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
> opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
> I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
> that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
Steal This Book comes to mind.
--
William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com. HTH. HAND. * <--- Perth
Support peer pressure -- kick a lemming off a cliff. Go Slugs!
Visit my web page! Current essay: Happiness. http://come.to/passenger-pigeon/
Weird Beard
"Joe Mason" <jcm...@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrn8uk64d...@xenocide.slack...
Gunther Schmidl
> Old and bleached white by the elements. You notice small marks on
> them, as of teeth.
> The rabbit suddenly leaps through the air and fastens itself onto
> your neck. You fall to the ground, bleeding profusely.
> ** You have died **
Except it's been done, if as a graphic adventure. Ditto "Meaning of Life".
David Gasior
>Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
Wasn't this already done? Could have sworn there was one.
--
David A Gasior
dga...@home.com
/
Fight spam - remove the word
"nospam" from my email address
Joe Mason
>> See "Promoted!" (with or without !, I can't recall), "Little Blue Men",
>and -
>> um - that other one in the office, whose title I can't recall.
>>
>Human Resource Stories?
No. It takes place in an office, and is funny. Predates LBM. Not a REXX game,
so not Promoted!
(Unless Promoted! isn't a REXX game, in which case it's the one I'm thinking
of, and I've forgotten the title of the REXX game.)
Joe
Branko Collin
>Generic Internet User #27892 <ri...@electricstoat.com> wrote:
>> Some more bad IF Ideas:
>
>> Animal Farm
>> While 1984 would make good IF if done right, Animal Farm would just suck.
>
>A big problem would be how to put the player into the story. It's not
>very easy to follow any one hero through the story. Well, maybe Benjamin,
>but he doesn't seem to do much of anything besides make cynical comments.
If you're going to stick too close to the story, the question arises
why you should want to turn it into a game anyway?
Solutions:
- Add a character
- Try to get different outcomes with a hero that can be followed quite
a while
- Both of the above
John D Evans
> I wonder if there has ever been a piece of IF, where you play an evil (yet
> *maybe* evily charismatic) person. And I don't mean a gentleman thief. Think
> of Humbert Humbert.
Varicella comes to mind...(though, to be honest, I don't know who or what
'Humbert Humbert' is...)
John
And yes, I know it has a bug.
Richard Bos
>
> > I wonder if there has ever been a piece of IF, where you play an evil (yet
> > *maybe* evily charismatic) person. And I don't mean a gentleman thief. Think
> > of Humbert Humbert.
>
> Varicella comes to mind...(though, to be honest, I don't know who or what
> 'Humbert Humbert' is...)
Protagonist of "Lolita".
Richard
Matt Neumann
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
> should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
>
> 1984
> The Bells
> Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
> Mein Kampf
> Fox in Socks
> War and Peace
> Hamlet
> Physical Interrogation Techniques
> Dick and Jane
> The Oxford English Dictionary
> You Might Be a Redneck
> r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
>
Catch-22?
--
-Matt (mat...@hotmail.com)
Angband in action! Constant escalation to new depths to find angrier,
meaner letters and more punctuation! -Russ Allbery
Aquarius
> Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> 39ea0f90...@news.bright.net...
>>..
>> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
>> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
>> another...
>>..
>
> I wonder if there has ever been a piece of IF, where you play an evil (yet
> *maybe* evily charismatic) person. And I don't mean a gentleman thief. Think
> of Humbert Humbert.
Varicella springs to mind. And there's been discussion in the past of
something themed around the film Se7en, which I might have a look at
doing if I ever get an exceptionally round tuit.
Aq.
--
"If you have a problem
If no-one else can help
And if you can find them
Maybe you should hire - the Aq team" -- darlzie and Nef, #eddings
John Elliott
>In article <39ea0f90...@news.bright.net>, jon...@bright.net wrote ...
>
>>Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
>
>Wasn't this already done? Could have sworn there was one.
See for instance <ftp://ftp.void.jump.org/pub/sinclair/games/h/HOLYGRAI.ZIP>
John Hill
<baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Although, on the subject of Brautigan, in the mid-80s for my own
> amusement I did actually start scripting out a game based on Brautigan's
> Gothic Western "The Hawkline Monster" a book that seemed very much to
> lend itself to an IF translation. But for the lack an IF language or any
> attempt on my part at gaining permission from the author's estate I
> might have actually done something with the idea.
I'd never heard of this guy.
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/petposey/brautigan.html
It seems to be some sort of R-rated Rybread.
No, I mean I like it.
Steve Evans
jon...@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
>
> From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
> work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
> opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
> that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
>
> The Bells
> Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
> Fox in Socks
> War and Peace
> Hamlet
> Physical Interrogation Techniques
> Dick and Jane
> The Oxford English Dictionary
> You Might Be a Redneck
> r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
>
> that belong on that list... but there's a
> nice start, anyhow.
>
> My comp prediction for next year, almost a whole
> year in advance, is that some mor^H^H^H^Hone will
> submit an attempt at one of the works mentioned
> in this thread, or a parody thereof.
>
> "Popularity and quality are orthogonal." -- jonadab
>
IMHO most works of non-fiction will tend to fall flat if attempted as IF
(I exclude Comp00.z5 here of course!) Although I'm sure there would be
great and justifiable kudos for the first person to do an interactive
full and unabridged Oxford English Dictionary in 512k of Inform code.
But I can't see any notable works of non-fiction such as The Origin of
Species, or Jane's Book of Fighting Wombats or whatever, translating
very well as IF.
On the non-non-fiction front there are of course many titles that
potential authors should be actively and mercilessly discouraged from
attempting, including some already mentioned in this thread. There are
also some that would be very difficult to do justice to as IF. In this
latter category I'd include titles like Kenneth Patchen's anti-novel The
Journal of Albion Moonlight, or perhaps Richard Brautigan's Trout
Fishing in America.
Although, on the subject of Brautigan, in the mid-80s for my own
amusement I did actually start scripting out a game based on Brautigan's
Gothic Western "The Hawkline Monster" a book that seemed very much to
lend itself to an IF translation. But for the lack an IF language or
any attempt on my part at gaining permission from the author's estate I
might have actually done something with the idea.
Cheers,
Steve
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve Evans
"John Hill" <john...@fuse.net> wrote:
> In article <8siqmc$l74$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, "Steve Evans"
> <baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > amusement I did actually start scripting out a game based on
Brautigan's
> > Gothic Western "The Hawkline Monster" a book that seemed very much
to
> > lend itself to an IF translation. But for the lack an IF language or
any
> > attempt on my part at gaining permission from the author's estate I
> > might have actually done something with the idea.
>
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/ky/petposey/brautigan.html
>
> It seems to be some sort of R-rated Rybread.
> No, I mean I like it.
Hey, nice url. :-)
Yeah, Brautigan was a strange writer, with a simple whimsical style, who
occasionally hit upon surprising flashes of insight into whatever it is
that ails us all (much like Rybread, as you say...but with the words in
the right order).
I started reading The Hawkline Monster (surely the world's only "Gothic
Western"?) just after finishing one or other of the Infocom games, and
kept seeing the book as IF as I read it. But perhaps that says more
about me than about the book.
Carl Muckenhoupt
<baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>I started reading The Hawkline Monster (surely the world's only "Gothic
>Western"?)
Depends on what you mean by "gothic". There are certainly other
Western horror stories; I recall seeing an anthology of them at one
point, but didn't get a chance to read it.
For examples of this genre in IF, see John Olsen's "Ghost Riders of El
Diablo" or the graphic adventure "Silverload".
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r
>
> Hah?
It's a poem. By e.e. cummings.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> >1984
>
> That would make a great piece of IF.
You'd have to change it too much, I think. You'd
probably end up with a lot of guess-the-verb puzzles
in minitrue. You'd *definitely* have to have
guess-what-he-wants-you-to-say puzzles in miniluv
toward the end. The scene in Room 101, without
which the book is entirely incomplete, just
wouldn't work at all...
> >Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
>
> A bit linear, but that should not be a problem, maybe even an
> advantage. Very nice adventure for beginners who still have to learn
> when red herrings are useful and when not.
Linearity is okay. But it has too much arbitrariness.
I don't think someone who hadn't seen the movie would
be able to play through it in any case.
> >Mein Kampf
>
> Apparently it is a very boring book.
Don't know about that, but it's white with hatred. But,
as someone else said, this really isn't fair because it's
non-fiction, and non-fiction in general doesn't work
well as IF.
> >War and Peace
>
> I am looking forward to the descriptions. A V127 game?
*This* is supposed to be a very long and boring book.
> >Hamlet
>
> Give me one reason why Graham Nelson should not try this!
Breaking up the pentameter would destroy it, for starters.
> >Physical Interrogation Techniques
>
> I have felt for a long time that IF and its development systems are
> perfect for instruction manuals. Well, maybe not perfect, but the best
> thing so far. Helpdesks should be replaced by MUDs. Windows users get
> less attack and defence points, period.
Hmmm...
Carl Muckenhoupt
Unsightly One) wrote:
>col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) wrote:
>
>> >1984
>>
>> That would make a great piece of IF.
>
>You'd have to change it too much, I think. You'd
>probably end up with a lot of guess-the-verb puzzles
>in minitrue.
Why?
>You'd *definitely* have to have
>guess-what-he-wants-you-to-say puzzles in miniluv
>toward the end.
Agreed. After all, that's what that whole scene is about. (Well,
except that it isn't just about *saying* the right thing; O'Brien can
tell you're insincere when you tell him you see five fingers.
Possible twist: He can also tell if you're lying about seeing only
four.)
The guesswork could be lessened by means of conversation menus. I
think it would be preferable, though, for O'Brien to ask questions
that make it clear what kind of answer he expects, so all the player
has to do is fill in the blank. For example, "Who should we do it
to?" in Room 101. The correct answer sould even depend on how the
player responded to O'Brien's questions earlier in the book. That is,
the reason that the correct answer is "Julia" is that Julia is the one
thing he said he would never betray.
Another thought: Newspeak provides a convenient excuse to constrain
conversation with NPC's to forms to forms that the parser can
understand.
>> >War and Peace
>>
>> I am looking forward to the descriptions. A V127 game?
>
>*This* is supposed to be a very long and boring book.
Thinking along the lines of long books: How about Moby Dick? The
thing that's really fatal in this, as far as IF is concerned, is that
the protagonist really doesn't do much. I guess you could make it
into a primarily observational "game" like AMFV, although, since the
bulk of the work takes place on a whaling vessel, the exploration
would be into the characters and the minutae of whaling rather than
into geography.
>> >Hamlet
>>
>> Give me one reason why Graham Nelson should not try this!
>
>Breaking up the pentameter would destroy it, for starters.
I take it you haven't played Nelson's adaptation of "The Tempest"? He
didn't break up the iambic pentameter, he incorporated it whole into
the game.
Vincent Lynch
> col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) wrote:
>> >1984
>>
>> That would make a great piece of IF.
>
> You'd have to change it too much, I think. You'd
> probably end up with a lot of guess-the-verb puzzles
> guess-what-he-wants-you-to-say puzzles in miniluv
> toward the end. The scene in Room 101, without
> which the book is entirely incomplete, just
> wouldn't work at all...
I don't think this kind of thing is really the problem. 1984 is
non-interactive fiction - that's the main reason it's hard to adapt to IF,
and it couldn't be done with all kinds of changes to suit the new medium. In
fact, I think 1984 would be relatively easy; there's so much background
detail there that it would be fairly suited to allowing people to wander away
from the original's plot. (The other main problem is that 1984 is regarded as
a classic, and people might not be able to help comparing an IF adaption to
the original.)
>> >Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
>>
>> A bit linear, but that should not be a problem, maybe even an
>> advantage. Very nice adventure for beginners who still have to learn
>> when red herrings are useful and when not.
>
> Linearity is okay. But it has too much arbitrariness.
> I don't think someone who hadn't seen the movie would
> be able to play through it in any case.
It would have to be written with that in mind! I'm sure Monty Python in
general could supply enough ideas to make up a half-decent game. I think the
point is not that it _couldn't_ be done, but simply that it will probably be
done very badly by anyone who doesn't know what he's doing.
I think it's perhaps worth saying to new authors that an adaption of Holy
Grail probably isn't a good choice for a first game. Experienced authors
will hopefully know their own limits.
-Vincent
Gunther Schmidl
thinking
> of, and I've forgotten the title of the REXX game.)
>
> Joe
Well, Promoted! has been ported to Inform, retaining the menu of course.
-- Gunther
Adam Conover
wrote:
>See "Promoted!" (with or without !, I can't recall), "Little Blue Men", and -
>um - that other one in the office, whose title I can't recall.
above and beyond? definitely had a "work your way around the office
bureaucracy" puzzle or two...
- adam
(take out the the 'removethis' from e-mail address to reply)
John Hill
<baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> > But for the lack an IF language or any
>> > attempt on my part at gaining permission from the author's estate I
>> > might have actually done something with the idea.
Hmm...
> I started reading The Hawkline Monster (surely the world's only "Gothic
> Western"?) just after finishing one or other of the Infocom games, and
> kept seeing the book as IF as I read it. But perhaps that says more
> about me than about the book.
You know, I heard somewhere that old unreleased games from the 80s
are going to be all the rage.
<looks around>
<whistles>
Branko Collin
>col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) wrote:
>> >Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
>>
>> A bit linear, but that should not be a problem, maybe even an
>> advantage. Very nice adventure for beginners who still have to learn
>> when red herrings are useful and when not.
>
>Linearity is okay. But it has too much arbitrariness.
>I don't think someone who hadn't seen the movie would
>be able to play through it in any case.
To the contrary, I think a person with no expectations about how the
'story' (if you can call it that) will unfold would be best suited to
play the game. Somebody who knows the film will try and replace the
game's silliness with the film's silliness.
>> >War and Peace
>>
>> I am looking forward to the descriptions. A V127 game?
>
>*This* is supposed to be a very long and boring book.
From what I heard the descriptions of the scenery takes ages, that was
what my joke was about. But I never read it, so I may definitely be
wrong.
Matt.
Vincent Lynch <ma...@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8skm4s$dhf$1...@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> It would have to be written with that in mind! I'm sure Monty Python
in
> general could supply enough ideas to make up a half-decent game. I
think the
> point is not that it _couldn't_ be done, but simply that it will
probably be
> done very badly by anyone who doesn't know what he's doing.
Isn't doing it badly the whole point of Monty Python?
Matt.
--
I'm opposed to millionaires, but it would be
dangerous to offer me the position.
Mark Twain.
Martin Julian DeMello
[War and Peace]
> From what I heard the descriptions of the scenery takes ages, that was
> what my joke was about. But I never read it, so I may definitely be
> wrong.
Speaking of which, any other Donaldson fans out there? I've always thought
of him as the author whose scenery descriptions would best translate to IF.
--
Martin DeMello
BrenBarn
>Thinking along the lines of long books: How about Moby Dick? The
>thing that's really fatal in this, as far as IF is concerned, is that
>the protagonist really doesn't do much. I guess you could make it
>into a primarily observational "game" like AMFV, although, since the
>bulk of the work takes place on a whaling vessel, the exploration
>would be into the characters and the minutae of whaling rather than
>into geography.
Well, I think another problem would be that you'd probably mangle it if
you changed Melville's text. (Unless, as you mentioned elsewhere, you imported
it whole into the game.) But since so much of the book is philosophical and
introspective, it would be kind of hard to make it interactive without either
forcing the player to read lots of text regardless of what he types, or leaving
out half the book, or making the player "guess Ishmael's insight".
--BrenBarn (Bren...@aol.com)
(Name in header has spam-blocker, use the address above instead.)
"Do not follow where the path may lead;
go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail."
--Author Unknown
Torbjörn Andersson
> Speaking of which, any other Donaldson fans out there? I've always thought
> of him as the author whose scenery descriptions would best translate to IF.
Stephen Donaldson? Sure, I like his books a lot. (They do make a great
antidote if you've overdosed on David Eddings. :-) I've been meaning
to re-read some of those books - the "Gap" series in particular - but
for some reason I haven't felt like reading much at all lately.
Torbjörn
Muffy St. Bernard
> > of him as the author whose scenery descriptions would best translate to IF.
>
I read the first 3 "Unbeliever" books, but I really DID get tired of
Thomas Covenant not believing. I mean, I know that was part of the
point...but I felt his disbelief was getting pretty forced by that
point.
Those books, I think, WOULD make wonderfully descriptive IF...though
you might need to include a glossary as well.
I'm still hoping that somebody produces a Piers Anthony Chthon/Phthor
piece of IF, myself...
Muffy.
Adam Conover
<baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>IMHO most works of non-fiction will tend to fall flat if attempted as IF
>(I exclude Comp00.z5 here of course!)
wait... isn't the genre called "interactive FICTION"? i don't want to
sound like a dogmatist here, but i know games are certainly criticized
if they're not "interactive" enough...
John D Evans
> I think it's perhaps worth saying to new authors that an adaption of Holy
> Grail probably isn't a good choice for a first game. Experienced authors
> will hopefully know their own limits.
Egad! Are you saying people shouldn't try something just because they don't
know if they can?
...I'm sorry. That's probably not what you were saying, but you just sort of
rubbed me the wrong way. ^_^;
What you meant was that experienced authors would have a better idea of what
it would take to do the game well, right?...
John D Evans
> > > of him as the author whose scenery descriptions would best translate to IF.
> >
> > Torbjörn
>
> I read the first 3 "Unbeliever" books, but I really DID get tired of
> Thomas Covenant not believing. I mean, I know that was part of the
> point...but I felt his disbelief was getting pretty forced by that
> point.
> Those books, I think, WOULD make wonderfully descriptive IF...though
> you might need to include a glossary as well.
Hmmm. I wonder how that would work. Would a glossary break the suspension
of disbelief? Then again, the books themselves had glossaries, so...well,
I'm probably worrying too much...
Unbeliever, wow. That takes me back. I read those books in high school and
they shaped my entire psyche. Maybe I should get to work on that social
phobia game...
I'm not sure how the Unbeliever series would work as a game, though. All
the things Thomas Covenant does in the books are either a) not really by
choice or b) a result of his own..."code of action" shall we say, which
most players probably wouldn't share...
> I'm still hoping that somebody produces a Piers Anthony Chthon/Phthor
> piece of IF, myself...
Now *that's* old school style. ^_^; Hmmm, any particular reason why that
pair of books? Other than the obvious 'underground adventure' theme? ^_^;
Hmmm...would make for some interesting NPC coding, I bet...
Gunther Schmidl
Really? I read The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and they were the
same 50 pages over and over again.
1 "I must help my friends, but I can't because I'll kill everyone."
2 One of his friends dies/gets hurt.
3 He kills everyone.
4 "Oh no, I've killed my friend AND everyone else! I shall become even more
depressed!"
5 GOTO 1
-- Gunther
Matt.
news:39ef2ce4$0$57...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> What you meant was that experienced authors would have a better idea
of what
> it would take to do the game well, right?...
With regards to Monty Python, surely a die-hard python fan even if
he/she were a novice writer would do a far better job of converting The
Holy Grail to IF than an experienced writer who didn't really like that
kind of humour. When converting that kind of thing isn't it the humour
factor that's most important? Now I'm thinking is that point relevant,
would you write a piece of IF like The Holy Grail if you weren't a
Python fan, do you write IF for yourselves or for the prospective
audience?
Steve Evans
ac...@bard.removethispart.edu wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:25:54 GMT, Steve Evans
> <baskin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
as IF
> >(I exclude Comp00.z5 here of course!)
>
> sound like a dogmatist here, but i know games are certainly criticized
> if they're not "interactive" enough...
>
> - adam
>
Um...Yeah. True enough.
I guess INF doesn't have that same ring to it.
Zimri
> >>
> >> A bit linear, but that should not be a problem, maybe even an
> >> advantage. Very nice adventure for beginners who still have to
learn
> >> when red herrings are useful and when not.
> >
> > Linearity is okay. But it has too much arbitrariness.
> > I don't think someone who hadn't seen the movie would
> > be able to play through it in any case.
Vincent Lynch:
> It would have to be written with that in mind! I'm sure Monty
Python in
> general could supply enough ideas to make up a half-decent game. I
think the
> point is not that it _couldn't_ be done, but simply that it will
probably be
> done very badly by anyone who doesn't know what he's doing.
>
> I think it's perhaps worth saying to new authors that an adaption of
Holy
> Grail probably isn't a good choice for a first game. Experienced
authors
> will hopefully know their own limits.
As for Monty Python-esque games... Douglas Adams owes a LOT to Python.
Particularly Bureaucracy. Llamas anyone?
I think a Python game would probably work well in IF. If you were as
funny and clever / irritating and obtuse as Douglas Adams.
--
-- Zimri
***********
"No adult human really knows anyplace. You have to crawl everywhere
you can crawl, lick anything interesting, trace all the smells to
their sources, listen to ants trooping across walls, and eat a few
spiders before you really know a place."
-- Corey the Cat ("All Too Familiar", J Robert King, Dragon #259)
Martin Julian DeMello
> I'm not sure how the Unbeliever series would work as a game, though. All
> the things Thomas Covenant does in the books are either a) not really by
> choice or b) a result of his own..."code of action" shall we say, which
> most players probably wouldn't share...
Wasn't talking about the Unbeliever series per se, just a standard work of
IF with the scenery descriptions in the style of the Covenant chronicles, or
the Mordant's Need series. Or maybe even written by Donaldson - hey, Douglas
Adams did it :)
--
Martin DeMello
Martin Julian DeMello
>> Stephen Donaldson? Sure, I like his books a lot.
> Really? I read The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and they were the
> same 50 pages over and over again.
The Second Chronicles were bad - I couldn't get past book 4. I've read the
First Chronicles several times, though.
--
Martin DeMello
Vincent Lynch
> John D Evans <jo...@mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:39ef2ce4$0$57...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
>> What you meant was that experienced authors would have a better idea
>> of what it would take to do the game well, right?...
>
> With regards to Monty Python, surely a die-hard python fan even if
> he/she were a novice writer would do a far better job of converting The
> Holy Grail to IF than an experienced writer who didn't really like that
> kind of humour. When converting that kind of thing isn't it the humour
> factor that's most important? Now I'm thinking is that point relevant,
> would you write a piece of IF like The Holy Grail if you weren't a
> Python fan, do you write IF for yourselves or for the prospective
> audience?
I think a lot of die-hard fans probably _would_ do a bad job; a think a lot of
the silliness and in-jokes could be very irritating in the hands of a poor
writer, and if they're die-hard fans, they're probably going to be less
interested in the actual game mechanics than in repeating the jokes. Clearly
that's a generalisation, but that's what I'd expect most of the time.
I can't imagine why anyone would try to write an IF version of The Holy Grail
if they didn't like Python.
-Vincent
Adam Biltcliffe
> Fox in Socks
OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
course.
jw
Joe Mason
>inventory
You are carrying:
red fish
blue fish
>eat green eggs and ham
You cannot use multiple objects with 'eat'.
Joe
BrenBarn
>OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
>style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
>course.
The craziest would be if the player's commands also had to rhyme:
# I HAVE TO WRITE A WHOLE LONG STORY JUST TO SEE MY INVENTORY
Here it is, just as you wish.
You're carrying:
red fish
blue fish
# EEEAGH! WHY WOULD I CARRY TWO FISH? X THE RED FISH. X THE BLUE FISH
The red fish: red
The blue fish: blue
That's all I have to say to you.
Martin Julian DeMello
> Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>> Fox in Socks
> OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
> style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
> course.
The one I'd have loved to see was Dick and Jane :) I seriously considered
having a try at it but I'm a bit too busy atm.
--
Martin DeMello
Andrew Plotkin
> Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>> Fox in Socks
> OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
> style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
> course.
I thought about doing this once. Then I realized that I wasn't clever
enough, not by an order of magnitude.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Branko Collin
wrote:
>As for Monty Python-esque games... Douglas Adams owes a LOT to Python.
>Particularly Bureaucracy. Llamas anyone?
Douglas Adams has written for Monty Python, maybe that could explain
any similarities?
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> > OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
> > style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
> > course.
>
> I thought about doing this once. Then I realized that I wasn't clever
> enough, not by an order of magnitude.
There it is: the challenge. Andrew Plotkin says he isn't clever
enough to do this. That means anybody who manages it for next
year's comp gets bragging rights for at least a year, doesn't it?
So, um, go ahead, somebody...
--
"Popularity and quality are orthogonal." -- jonadab
Sean T Barrett
>>[attribution lost]
>> > OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
>> > style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
>> > course.
>>
>> I thought about doing this once. Then I realized that I wasn't clever
>> enough, not by an order of magnitude.
>
>year's comp gets bragging rights for at least a year, doesn't it?
>So, um, go ahead, somebody...
One of the things I'd like to work on in the world of commercial
computer games is synthetic generation of text by NPCs. For
a while I've been considering the idea of writing a rhyming
text adventure as a step towards solving some of the problems,
since things like inventory lists are some an example of a computer
synthesizing real sentences that communicate something.
It would have to be pretty small, and I'd tackle it by modifying
a compiler/interpreter setup to support a special kind of string
which encodes three things: the english text, the metrical pattern
of the text, and a phoneme coding of the last syllables for
rhyming. Things which return names or such would return a
number of alternatives and a controller would tree walk to find
solutions.
I'm not sure I'm up to modifying Tads3 though, and
the interpreter system I was developing is on indefinite hold
right now.
Sean
Adam Conover
<abilt...@bigfoot.NOHORMELPRODUCTS.com> wrote:
>Jonadab the Unsightly One <jon...@bright.net> wrote:
>
>> Fox in Socks
>
>OTOH, I would *love* to see a work of IF written entirely in Seussian
>style. Making things like inventory lists rhyme could be a pain, of
>course.
well, that's one "surprise" Comp01 gimmick-game spoiled...
Daniel Barkalow
IF? It could be pretty cool. On the other hand, I think the long series of
rooms each containing a slightly more complete version of Ruins would
quickly get dull. The appendix where you can look through the source to
the IF version of th DM could get interesting, too. And the exercises...
Exercise 3
ThrownAt would be unnecessary if...
You see a PreGameRoutine here.
You also see the answer here.
> put "object provides second_before" in pregameroutine
-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*
Steve Evans
Daniel Barkalow <iabe...@iabervon.org> wrote:
> So, when are we going to see the inform designer's manual as a work of
> IF? It could be pretty cool.
The 512k limit for Inform z8 might be a problem.
Maybe you could use TADS? Er...forget I said that. I don't know what
came over me.
Peter Ciccolo
Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
>
> From time to time someone posts here the name of a particular
> work, author, or series that perhaps would (in the poster's
> opinion) make good IF if redone in an interactive fashion.
>
> I thought I'd take the contrary approach, and list a hanful
> of works that should *not* be done as IF... feel free to
> jump in... these are all real works, of course, but ones
> that (IMO) should not be done as IF for one reason or
> another...
<snip>
Hopscotch.
Talk about CYOA...
Peter
--
0'|- [Dave betrays Selmer].
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.21.001024...@iabervon.org>,
> Daniel Barkalow <iabe...@iabervon.org> wrote:
> > So, when are we going to see the inform designer's manual as a work of
> > IF? It could be pretty cool.
>
> The 512k limit for Inform z8 might be a problem.
>
> Maybe you could use TADS? Er...forget I said that. I don't know what
> came over me.
glulx.
The problem would be making it sufficiently interactive to
be worth the trouble. You'd basically have to rethink the
design from scratch. Unless you just want a continuous
stream of print statements; that could even be constructed
automatically, more or less. And you could put in a set
of interactive menus for picking chapters. But still,...
it wouldn't gain you much over plain text, unless you
redesigned it from the ground up to be interactive.
Joe Rheaume
when the player refers to "all". I have a weapon called "your bare hands"
that is fixed to the player, so it isn't listed in the inventory (good)
but if you do "drop all" it tells you that you can't drop your bare hands
which would be obvious to anyone who isn't severly intoxicated. I also
don't want people to necessarily know that their hands are a deadly weapon
right away. I also wouldn't mind telling the parser that the bare hands
should only be defaulted to with the kill verb when you don't have another
weapon (ie What to you want to attack it with? shouldn't appear if you
have a different weapon) I seem to remember the documentation mentioning
being able to do these things, but I can't find it (and searching for
"all" is like doing something very difficult that I can't think of a
colorful metaphor for.
Joe Rheaume, Scary Bug
Mark Musante - Sun Microsystems
One way to do it is to modify the dropVerb:
modify dropVerb
doDefault( actor, prep, io ) = {
return actor.contents - bare_hands;
}
;
You'll have to do this to all other verbs which include actor.contents
in their doDefault or ioDefault. Like putVerb and giveVerb, for example.
-=- Mark -=-
Joe Rheaume
>
> modify dropVerb
> doDefault( actor, prep, io ) = {
> return actor.contents - bare_hands;
> }
> ;
>
>
> You'll have to do this to all other verbs which include actor.contents
> in their doDefault or ioDefault. Like putVerb and giveVerb, for example.
would it work to modify the superclass deepverb in that way, and then
change the few verb I want to be used with the hands to include them in
the doDefault? or would that be a bad idea
Joe Rheaume, Scary Bug.
Mark Musante - Sun Microsystems
Well, I sort of said that already, although perhaps I wasn't clear.
*Every* verb which includes actor.contents in the doDdefault or ioDefault
needs to change to subtract your hands object from the list. This does
include the class 'deepverb'.
The best way would be to go through adv.t and do a search for
'actor.contents' and add a modify for each verb in which that appears.
Of course, there may be a simpler soltion. If someone knows a better
way, please post it!
-=- Mark -=-
Clueless Joe
Microsystems) wrote:
>Of course, there may be a simpler soltion. If someone knows a better
>way, please post it!
For this situation, couldn't you just make the hands a fixed
item, and set their location as the player?
Joe Rheaume
> way, please post it!
I found notall.t on one of the IF ftp sites. that fixed it up perfectly
Joe Rheaume, Scary Bug.
Joe Rheaume
> Microsystems) wrote:
>
>
> >way, please post it!
>
> item, and set their location as the player?
I did that. It doesn't let you drop your hands, or list them in inventory,
which is good. But it still says
your bare hands: You can't drop your bare hands!
But I popped in notall.t and got it to work fine.
Joe Rheaume, Scary Bug.