Rani is Ushas?
Elflore
I recently read (and loved, despite my...um, intense dislike of Looms,
etc.!) Divided Loyalties. I especially enjoyed the flashback to the Academy,
and the Deca...but had one question. Why is the Rani known as Ushas? It's a
cool name...I'm just wondering if this is a new development from Gary Russell,
or if he borrowed it from a source I have yet to read.
Thanks,
John Clifford
Jefferson Eng
elf...@aol.com (Elflore) wrote:
May I suggest *SPOILER SPACE* for those that have YET TO READ
IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jefferson Eng
AOL user......
You know who you are.
Jefferson Eng
Jefferson Eng
>I agree with you in principal, but this spoiler was pretty
>insignificant,
>particularly since you pick up on that particular piece of information
>the instant that the character in question appears in the book.
>
>Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
>already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
>which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
>you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
Okay.....I stand corrected.....I just felt that even though it was evident
that the Celestial Toymaker was to be a featured character in the book, it
was a complete surprise to me that the <spoiler protected> was also in it as
well. Still, I guess I'll have to read the book to find out why she's even in
it at all.
Jefferson Eng
Lord of deXness
I agree with you in principal, but this spoiler was pretty
insignificant,
particularly since you pick up on that particular piece of information
the instant that the character in question appears in the book.
Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
deX!
Graham Woodland
<elf...@aol.com> writes
>
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>Hey folks,
> I recently read (and loved, despite my...um, intense dislike of Looms,
>etc.!) Divided Loyalties. I especially enjoyed the flashback to the Academy,
>and the Deca...
A bold idea, but I thought the execution pinned down far too much of the
Doctor's background to far too little effect. It made me want to bang
my head a bit. OTOH, after reading the (very bang-worthy) _Placebo
Effect_ and some of the reviews here, I was braced for a fairly ghastly
infodump on and caricature of Nyssa - who was, in fact, handled with
commendable skill and restraint. As were Adric and Tegan, actually.
Wherefore, despite _DL_'s many deeply irritating aspects, Gary Russell
goes up in my estimation with this one.
>but had one question. Why is the Rani known as Ushas? It's a
>cool name...I'm just wondering if this is a new development from Gary Russell,
>or if he borrowed it from a source I have yet to read.
> Thanks,
> John Clifford
Hindu Goddess of the Dawn. AFAIK, a fairly minor deity, sort of like
her Greek counterpart Eos - just significant enough to have a legend and
a persona, rather than being a purely abstract personification. I'm
willing to be corrected on that, however.
What with this, and 'Koschei' for the Master, I wonder whether we're
actually getting translations of their nicknames into Earthly terms,
like 'Magnus' and 'Millennia' (ugh!); whether Gallifreyans just have an
obsession with all things Terran (as suggested in _The Infinity
Doctors_); or whether they're actually supposed to have started the
legends. If the last, how the Rani ended up leaving such... warm...
memories, is beyond my poor wit.
Maybe there are some less than glowing stories told of Ushas, or maybe
she has some such title as 'Stealer of Sleep'? Reaching, I know...
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
- William Goldman, _The Princess Bride_.
Richard Jones
wrote:
>Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
>already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
>which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
>you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
Interestingly, despite how much this gets complained about, the true
nature of Autumn Mist's antagonists was given away on radw by David
McIntee in April of '98.
--
Richard Jones.
"No.12: The Little Book of Unwanted Gifts.
No.53: The Little Book of Crap Attention Spans."
- From The Little Book of Little Books.
Si Jerram
[Spoilers removed]
> What with this, and 'Koschei' for the Master, I wonder whether we're
> actually getting translations of their nicknames into Earthly terms,
> like 'Magnus' and 'Millennia' (ugh!); whether Gallifreyans just have an
> obsession with all things Terran (as suggested in _The Infinity
> Doctors_); or whether they're actually supposed to have started the
> legends. If the last, how the Rani ended up leaving such... warm...
> memories, is beyond my poor wit.
Perhaps they describe them selves in Earth terms, because when we
hear them they appear to be talking Earth Languages? No?
--
Simon Jerram Email:si...@telos.clara.co.uk
"Your policies have failed the test of time,
'Cause you sold them down the river."
Snarky
Richard Jones wrote
>Lord of deXness wrote:
>>Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
>>already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
>>which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
>>you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
>Interestingly, despite how much this gets complained about, the true
>nature of Autumn Mist's antagonists was given away on radw by David
>McIntee in April of '98.
In a way, I guess it's fortunate for me that I never had a chance to run
across that
post when I was lurking back then...Are we gonna have a flamewar now? Oh
goody,
I missed the last one when my server and my browser both conked out in the
same
three-day period, and I've never really had a chance to be in one,
or even get close to one, before......
Snarky, wild and queer
Lord of deXness
>
> >Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
> >already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_
> >spoiler, which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and
> >tips you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
>
> Interestingly, despite how much this gets complained about, the true
> nature of Autumn Mist's antagonists was given away on radw by David
> McIntee in April of '98.
>
Of course, I didn't read those threads in April of '98 because I don't
like having my books spoiled for me.
Whenever any author starts talking about plot details for upcoming
books (and IIRC Dave did it more than most), I skip the thread.
deX!
Richard Jones
wrote:
>Richard Jones wrote:
>> Interestingly, despite how much this gets complained about, the true
>> nature of Autumn Mist's antagonists was given away on radw by David
>> McIntee in April of '98.
>
>Of course, I didn't read those threads in April of '98 because I don't
>like having my books spoiled for me.
Wasn't in one of *those* threads IIRC - it was in an elephant-sized
and entirely unambiguous 'hint' that DM dropped during one of Charles
Daniels' much-missed Wacky Surveys.
Although, like every magazine that reviewed the book, I don't think it
spoils much to know. Knowing who was going to appear was actually what
stopped me skipping the book and what kept me reading when it became
obvious that it wasn't my bag. Quite liked it by the end.
--
Richard Jones.
M.H. Stevens
>What with this, and 'Koschei' for the Master, I wonder whether we're
>actually getting translations of their nicknames into Earthly terms,
>like 'Magnus' and 'Millennia' (ugh!); whether Gallifreyans just have an
>obsession with all things Terran (as suggested in _The Infinity
>Doctors_); or whether they're actually supposed to have started the
>legends. If the last, how the Rani ended up leaving such... warm...
>memories, is beyond my poor wit.
Forgive me for not getting the joke, but what do Magnus and Millenia
translate to?
Mark H Stevens
Nyctolops
wrote:
"Magnus" and "Millenia" are what the Gallifreyan nicknames translated
into. If you want a translation from Latin to English, Magnus means
great and Millenia means thousands of years.
Nyctolops
Quotefile nominations to radwqu...@geocities.com
Lord of deXness
>
> On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:26:45 GMT, Lord of deXness <djp...@bbn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Richard Jones wrote:
>
> >> Interestingly, despite how much this gets complained about, the true
> >> nature of Autumn Mist's antagonists was given away on radw by David
> >> McIntee in April of '98.
> >
> >Of course, I didn't read those threads in April of '98 because I don't
> >like having my books spoiled for me.
>
> Wasn't in one of *those* threads IIRC - it was in an elephant-sized
> and entirely unambiguous 'hint' that DM dropped during one of Charles
> Daniels' much-missed Wacky Surveys.
>
Ah. Didn't read those either.
Personally, I was annoyed when I found out about the spoiler because
the nature of the antagonists seemed like it was supposed to be a
major revelation in the narrative, and when I got to that point I wasn't
the least bit surprised. The book hangs together despite that, but I
felt like some measure of its impact had been removed.
deX!
Graham Woodland
<si...@telos.clara.co.uk> writes
>Graham Woodland wrote:
>
>[Spoilers removed]
>
>> actually getting translations of their nicknames into Earthly terms,
>> like 'Magnus' and 'Millennia' (ugh!); whether Gallifreyans just have an
>> obsession with all things Terran (as suggested in _The Infinity
>> Doctors_); or whether they're actually supposed to have started the
>> legends. If the last, how the Rani ended up leaving such... warm...
>> memories, is beyond my poor wit.
>
>hear them they appear to be talking Earth Languages? No?
>--
point. The M-names are obvious cases of this. I can even go along with
that for 'Ushas', since AFAIK that's a moderately generic mythical
character. (Wonder what the running Indian theme with the Rani is
translating, though? Can't be the culture of her later kingdom, since
it seems to predate her discovery of same - unless she's already
developed a fascination with it.) But what the *hell* translates into
Koshchei the Deathless? He's a pretty... specific... villain, and I
don't see any obvious mappings onto the Master.
Who must already be a pretty sick chicken, since this is a bit like
someone going by the friendly nickname of 'Belial' or 'de Sade' or
'Evilbeard'. Wonder how the Doc's companions would hear it? (Oh,
bugger - the only Terran one is Tegan at that point, and thanks to her
dear old Serbian relatives she probably knows all about Koshchei anyway.
If that's deliberate on Gary's part, it's really rather clever.)
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
-- John Lehman, US Secretary of the Navy 1981-1987
Dokter Ooh
>>
>> Great, now my enjoyment of the book has been ruined thanks to even yet
>> another AOL user......
>>
>> You know who you are.
>>
>
>I agree with you in principal, but this spoiler was pretty
>insignificant,
>particularly since you pick up on that particular piece of information
>the instant that the character in question appears in the book.
>
>already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
>which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
>you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
>
>
Very true. I was going to make a post (still will eventunately) about some of
the names in the Deca. The thought of spoiler space came to mind but then I
thought - what is it spoiling? - nothing really.
I've seen the name Magnus used before (other than Magnus Greel from "Talons
of Weing Chang") He was a timelord in another story. Perhaps a novel. Anyone
remember which one?
"Remember me to Gallifrey"
Paul Andinach
> Very true. I was going to make a post (still will eventunately)
> about some of the names in the Deca. The thought of spoiler space
> came to mind but then I thought - what is it spoiling? - nothing
> really.
>
> I've seen the name Magnus used before (other than Magnus Greel
> from "Talons of Weing Chang") He was a timelord in another story.
> Perhaps a novel. Anyone remember which one?
One of the authors (can't remember which one) said recently that he
was the War Chief.
Paul
--
The Pink Pedanther
Dokter Ooh
Thank yoiu Paul. Did anyone say who Vansell and Jelpax would later become?
Everyone else I've got pegged.
"Remember me to Gallifrey"
Elflore
>Everyone else I've got pegged.
Don't really know about Jelpax, but Vansell is in the Sirens of Time audio.
His actions there, while not really needing an explanation, make a lot more
sense when you read Divided Loyalties.
Gary Russell
dokt...@aol.com (Dokter Ooh) wrote:
> >Jefferson Eng wrote:
> >>
> >> Great, now my enjoyment of the book has been ruined thanks to even yet
> >> another AOL user......
> >>
> >> You know who you are.
> >>
> >
> >I agree with you in principal, but this spoiler was pretty
> >insignificant,
> >particularly since you pick up on that particular piece of information
> >the instant that the character in question appears in the book.
> >
> >Everything else in the book relating to that character comes from an
> >already-televised story. It isn't quite like the _Autumn Mist_ spoiler,
> >which ruins one of the most effectinve scenes in the book and tips
> >you off to the true nature of the antagonists far too early.
> >
> >deX!
> >
>
> Very true. I was going to make a post (still will eventunately) about
some of
> the names in the Deca. The thought of spoiler space came to mind but then I
> thought - what is it spoiling? - nothing really.
>
> I've seen the name Magnus used before (other than Magnus Greel from "Talons
> of Weing Chang") He was a timelord in another story. Perhaps a novel. Anyone
> remember which one?
He was in a strip I commissioned from Warwick Gray for the Time Lord
special I did at Marvel. In Wick's original, he was called Magus and meant
to be the Master but I cocked it up and called him Magnus. When Dave
McIntee created Koschei, it struck me on re-reading Wick's strip that the
character could just as easily, if not better, be the War Chief. Which he
is in DL.
gee
--
"just passin' through the weary world of RADW"
Henry Potts
> elf...@aol.com (Elflore) wrote
> May I suggest *SPOILER SPACE* for those that have YET TO READ
> IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> >cool name...I'm just wondering if this is a new development from
> >Gary Russell, or if he borrowed it from a source I have yet to read.
Worry not: that the Rani appears in "Divided Loyalties" is not a spoiler
because she has absolutely no role to play, which might make you wonder
what the fuck she's doing in it. Well...
Full Circle Here's a list of stories
Keeper of Traken referenced in "Divided Loyalties"
Castrovalva to serve as spoiler space
Cold Fusion
The Visitation
Kinda
Warrior's Gate NB: This will not work as a way
The Twin Dilemma of generating spoiler space
The Armageddon Factor for most books
Lungbarrow
The Dark Path
Resurrection of the Daleks
The Deadly Assassin
Mark of the Rani
The Time Meddler
The Greatest Show in the Galaxy
Arc of Infinity
Logopolis
White Darkness
All-Consuming Fire
Millennial Rites
State of Decay
The Five Doctors
Genesis of the Daleks
plus some Audio-Visuals and comic strips
... that's what I thought about the Master, the Meddling Monk, Azmael,
Drax and the War Lord too.
Sorry, Gary, but "DL" has some of the most mindless fanwank ever.
Quoting chunks of "History of the Universe" and inserting a few
"mayhaps" does not make for a strong narrative!
And why go to all that trouble to explain "The Nightmare Fair" if you
end up contradicting original Toymaker story? Actually, why go to all
that trouble to explain "The Nightmare Fair" at all?
--
Henry
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Henry Potts
> I was braced for a fairly ghastly infodump on and caricature of
> Nyssa - who was, in fact, handled with commendable skill and
> restraint.
Er... we still got "Keeper of Traken" summarised not once, but multiple
times in clumsy infodumps. Still, she comes off slightly better than...
> As were Adric and Tegan, actually.
I don't remember the TARDIS crew all hating each other in Davison's
first season. Watch "Castrovalva" and there's an evident bond already
between Tegan and Nyssa. In "DL", Tegan is presented as whiney and
obsessed.
Adric is presented as arrogant and distrusting... OK, one out of two
there.
> Wherefore, despite _DL_'s many deeply irritating aspects, Gary Russell
> goes up in my estimation with this one. [...]
You must have had a very low estimation of him to begin with then! ;)
Lord of deXness
deX!
Graham Woodland
<h.p...@ucl.ac.uk> writes
>Graham Woodland <gr...@quilpole.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> I was braced for a fairly ghastly infodump on and caricature of
>> Nyssa - who was, in fact, handled with commendable skill and
>> restraint.
>
>Er... we still got "Keeper of Traken" summarised not once, but multiple
>times in clumsy infodumps.
Yes, but at least it _was_ KoT, and didn't really pin anything down that
wasn't there already. (Of the bear, 'twere best not to speak.) Thus,
we were spared a painful Russell redaction/reduction of her character,
and the kind of uninspired Too Much Information that we got about the
Doctor's alleged Academy exploits.
>Still, she comes off slightly better than...
>
>> As were Adric and Tegan, actually.
>
>I don't remember the TARDIS crew all hating each other in Davison's
>first season.
I didn't think they did in _DL_, either. They're a rather _bickery_
crew, however.
>Watch "Castrovalva" and there's an evident bond already
>between Tegan and Nyssa.
Yes, there is.
> In "DL", Tegan is presented as whiney and
>obsessed.
>
As opposed to how many TV episodes? It must be just the wrong time of
the serial again...
>Adric is presented as arrogant and distrusting... OK, one out of two
>there.
>
Insecure and arrogant is not a long way from distrusting, IMO.
>> Wherefore, despite _DL_'s many deeply irritating aspects, Gary Russell
>> goes up in my estimation with this one. [...]
>
>You must have had a very low estimation of him to begin with then! ;)
>
It came from _Placebo Defect_, need I say more? Jeez, I didn't exactly
think I was showering _DL_ with praises! However, I do think GR does
best when he's recreating the show in a fairly straight manner. This
not being possible for the main characters in _PE_, the results are IMHO
somewhat sad - like the bathetic Gallifreyan section of _DL_.
I don't really like GR's style, which for me has few virtues but an
indefinable air of bouncy fannish enthusiasm. This at least bestows a
charm conspicuously missing from the grimmer and sadder reaches of
fanwank. (Also, once used to a style, I can do a certain amount of
automatic filtering.) Having said that, what the hell, if I can finish
the damned book, I can give credit for those aspects where credit is
due.
If he didn't come across as such an all-round nice guy, though, I might
wonder what exactly he has on the Editor... :-)
Cheers,
--
Gray
http://www.quilpole.demon.co.uk
"She does not get eaten by the sharks at this time."
Dokter Ooh
Ahhh thank you.
"Remember me to Gallifrey"
Dokter Ooh
>some of
>> the names in the Deca. The thought of spoiler space came to mind but then I
>> thought - what is it spoiling? - nothing really.
>>
>> I've seen the name Magnus used before (other than Magnus Greel from
>"Talons
>> of Weing Chang") He was a timelord in another story. Perhaps a novel.
>Anyone
>> remember which one?
>
>He was in a strip I commissioned from Warwick Gray for the Time Lord
>special I did at Marvel. In Wick's original, he was called Magus and meant
>to be the Master but I cocked it up and called him Magnus. When Dave
>McIntee created Koschei, it struck me on re-reading Wick's strip that the
>character could just as easily, if not better, be the War Chief. Which he
>is in DL.
>
>gee
>
>--
Wow, direct from the author. Thank you. I just finished that flash back
section. I'm loving your book. Like David McIntee, you consistantly deliever an
enjoyable read.
"Remember me to Gallifrey"
Elflore
>between Tegan and Nyssa. In "DL", Tegan is presented as whiney and
>obsessed.
I agree that there was a bond between the crew, especially between Tegan and
Nyssa. >I don't remember the TARDIS crew all hating each other in Davison's
>first season. Watch "Castrovalva" and there's an evident bond already
>between Tegan and Nyssa. In "DL", Tegan is presented as whiney and
>obsessed.
I agree that there was a bond between the TARDIS crew, especially Tegan and
Nyssa, but I still loved this book. I didn't feel it was saying they hated each
other; rather that they got fed up with each other. This crew was like a group
of siblings, fighting and making up over and over, but still ultimately caring
about and respecting each other. I thought DL captured this well.
John Clifford
Finn Clark
Great list, but I'm sure you've missed one or two!
If you look carefully, I'm pretty sure you can spot
some references to The Celestial Toymaker. :-)
Finn Clark.
Gerard Johnson
> jeff...@logopolis.com (Jefferson Eng) wrote
> > elf...@aol.com (Elflore) wrote
> > May I suggest *SPOILER SPACE* for those that have YET TO READ
> > IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > >I recently read [...] Why is the Rani known as Ushas? It's a
> > >cool name...I'm just wondering if this is a new development from
> > >Gary Russell, or if he borrowed it from a source I have yet to read.
>
> Worry not: that the Rani appears in "Divided Loyalties" is not a spoiler
> because she has absolutely no role to play, which might make you wonder
> what the fuck she's doing in it. Well...
>
>
> ... that's what I thought about the Master, the Meddling Monk, Azmael,
> Drax and the War Lord too.
>
> Sorry, Gary, but "DL" has some of the most mindless fanwank ever.
> Quoting chunks of "History of the Universe" and inserting a few
> "mayhaps" does not make for a strong narrative!
>
> And why go to all that trouble to explain "The Nightmare Fair" if you
> end up contradicting original Toymaker story? Actually, why go to all
> that trouble to explain "The Nightmare Fair" at all?
/Lurk/
This is much too cruel. DL has a lot of these references, sure, but mostly
just made in passing to give a motivation for some narrative action taken
by a character. And far from having a weak narrative I thought DL was one
of the best plotted PDA's I'd read for a long time.
However that isn't the main point in DL's favour. For some time most of
the BBC books have made me think 'that's interesting' or 'that's clever'
or 'that's a brave attempt to deconstruct the mythology and those
metatextual references show a keen intellect at work' (or 'there's a
writer who isn't quite as clever as he thinks he is...'). DL just made me
stop whatever else I was doing and read it through in one sitting with a
big soppy smile plastered across my face.
I'm completely aware that if you think about the details for more than
five minutes lots of it becomes silly, but that's true in spades for many
of the TV stories, and they're the real models for the PDA's.
There. DL: most enjoyable DW book I've read for ages, and as a hardcore
books fan I'm pretty much up to date. Succeeds very handsomely in the
task it sets itself. Easy to poke fun at, but in a small way makes the
world a better place.
It's hard to ask for more.
Gerard
/Lurk/