Avengers Annual Thoughts
Johanna Draper Carlson
Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories? I ask
because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
interacting with a male character without flirting.
It was touching to see the first Hank reveal the existence of the second so
he wouldn't die -- that's real heroism. It's a shame that the story, in
contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
the Triunes being listed on the threat board) becoming part of the story
wasn't enough, the entire back "story" could have been a couple of posts.
That's the great thing about being the writer, I guess -- you can win
continuity arguments by writing your version into the comic. (That's just a
joke. I'm sure Mr. Busiek doesn't need to write the comic in order to win
such debates, given his knowledge of comic history.) Personally, I couldn't
make head or tail of any of it, but I'm content to ignore stories I don't
like.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Dale Hicks
joh...@comicsworthreading.com says...
> ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
Well, they've been seen supporting that massively powerful supervillain
team that trashed the Avengers (the one that had the Juggernaut as a
member). They're exhibiting cultlike behaviour. They're building a
spaceship for unknown purposes. They led rallies to destabilize the
Avengers' public image. All IIRC.
spoilers below ...
> As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
> the Triunes being listed on the threat board) becoming part of the story
> wasn't enough, the entire back "story" could have been a couple of posts.
Agreed. The bit on adamantium has been in posts before, but apparently
we need to make sure that fanboys that don't read USENET are caught up to
speed on the mistake.
It's interesting reading things that have their genesis in forums like
this, because it almost feels like you're an insider of sorts. You
(DCJohanna) might have some experience at things like this, where a
bullpen conversation suddenly becomes a part of a comic book, but it's
interesting to have these conversations here become entrenched in marvel
history.
Besides "WEHT Teen Tony" and the great Adamantium flub, I seem to recall
a huge black Avenger discussion happening prior to Busiek ever taking up
the issue in the Triathlon introduction issue. I don't remember how that
discussion started here (or on misc), though. Was it an inspiration for
the comic events, coincidence, or did Kurt throw out some ideas for
debate?
The only other example I can think of usenet having such an influence on
comics is the attack that PAD made on the hunter/non-hunter (whichever
way it was -- I forget who was on what side of the issue).
> Personally, I couldn't
> make head or tail of any of it, but I'm content to ignore stories I don't
> like.
I wasn't really sure about it either, as it seemed to be a big recap of
that Liefeld takeover year, with only a little bit added at the end to
round it out. I skipped those books then, and I just skimmed the story
here. I can live without continuity, so I can read the book and pretend
it's 1982 again, not worrying about what happened in the interim (except
for the major points).
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Michael Alan Chary
Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>Spoilers...
>
>
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>
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>
>
>Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories? I ask
>because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
>up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
Wasp was leader when Monica joined.
>Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
>seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
>character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
>interacting with a male character without flirting.
Monica was leader of the Avengers for a long stretch during the 1980's.
>It was touching to see the first Hank reveal the existence of the second so
>he wouldn't die -- that's real heroism. It's a shame that the story, in
>contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
>investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
>ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
>doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
Yes.
>As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
>the Triunes being listed on the threat board) becoming part of the story
>wasn't enough, the entire back "story" could have been a couple of posts.
I was actually gratified to see that they addressed this, since I believe
they said the Triune inclusion was a mistake.
--
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In Memoriam Douglas Adams, 1952-2001 "Belgium, man, Belgium!"
Carl Henderson
news:B77F53D8.45F18%joh...@comicsworthreading.com:
> Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories? I
> ask because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers
> showing up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
The Wasp brought Photon into the Avengers during her first term as Avengers
leader (back during the Stern/Busecma run). Jan (the Wasp) also selected
Photon to succed her as Avengers Chairwoman when she left. I'd have to dig
up all my old Stern/Buscema AVENGERS to give more specific examples of
their friendship, but I think Photon (then called Captain Marvel) did
consider the Wasp to be a mentor of sorts.
--
Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
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Johanna Draper Carlson
> I think Photon (then called Captain Marvel) did
> consider the Wasp to be a mentor of sorts.
Cool, thanks for the info!
Johanna Draper Carlson
> joh...@comicsworthreading.com says...
>> Is there any evidence of the Triunes
>> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
>
> Well, they've been seen supporting that massively powerful supervillain
> team that trashed the Avengers (the one that had the Juggernaut as a
> member).
Which issues was this? What happened? How did they support the villains?
This seems the most relevant element, so I'm curious.
> They're exhibiting cultlike behaviour.
So are the Avengers. :)
> They're building a spaceship for unknown purposes.
We just found this out, so this isn't one of the reasons the Avengers tagged
them as villains earlier, right?
> They led rallies to destabilize the Avengers' public image.
So free speech brands you a cult if you disagree with the Avengers? :)
> interesting to have these conversations here become entrenched in marvel
> history.
Yes, it is. We now all know the "story behind the story."
There's also a Usenet-type injoke in Young Heroes in Love.
Brian Doyle
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
news:B77F53D8.45F18%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
> Spoilers...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It was touching to see the first Hank reveal the existence of the second so
> he wouldn't die -- that's real heroism. It's a shame that the story, in
> contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
> investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
> ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
They co-ordinated much of the public outcry against the Avangers which resulted in
Triathlon being pretty much preeganged into the team. Quicksilver found the majority
of real troublemakers in the group were all wearing Triune badges.
They tracked one major supervillain, Lord Templar, to a Triune base, but the Triune
leader refused to allow them to search the premises, using it as an excuse to start
haranguing the Avengers for persecuting them as a religious group (When they were
doing no such thing)
There is also the question about what happened to the original 3D man, whose powers
Triathlon appears to mimic.
> As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
> the Triunes being listed on the threat board)
He has started to have his own suspiciousn about certain aspects of the Triune,
especially since he first heard about 3D Man going missing.
Many Triune followers seem genuine though, Duane, the Avengers Governemtn liasion for
starters.
Jeremy Henderson
>doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
>
ex-Avengers for breaking into their building and destroying property.
They also suspect them of riling up public opinion against them by
accusing them of racism, which led to them accepting Triathlon as a
member in the first place. So they don't have any solid evidence of
wrongdoing, but lots of reason to think they're up to no good.
Alan Travis
> Spoilers...
>
> Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories? I ask
> because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
> up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
I believe they were on the team together for some time. I think that implies
enough imtimacy to justify her presence.
> Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
> seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
> character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
> interacting with a male character without flirting.
Yeah, she's one of my favorites because of these very qualities.
> It was touching to see the first Hank reveal the existence of the second so
> he wouldn't die -- that's real heroism. It's a shame that the story, in
> contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
> investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
> ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
Well, Justice and Firestar did say that the giant spaceship they saw ran on some
kind of personal energy power. They had concerns that it would be powered by
people that could be harmed by its use. So, I think that, combined with the
run-ins they've had with them in the past year or so of issues, makes them worth
keeping an eye on.
There was definitely a Heaven's Gate slant added to the group in this annual.
> As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
> the Triunes being listed on the threat board) becoming part of the story
> wasn't enough, the entire back "story" could have been a couple of posts.
> That's the great thing about being the writer, I guess -- you can win
> continuity arguments by writing your version into the comic. (That's just a
> joke. I'm sure Mr. Busiek doesn't need to write the comic in order to win
> such debates, given his knowledge of comic history.) Personally, I couldn't
> make head or tail of any of it, but I'm content to ignore stories I don't
> like.
Glad to hear it!
Alan
Alan Travis
> In article <B77F53D8.45F18%joh...@comicsworthreading.com>,
> joh...@comicsworthreading.com says...
> > ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> > doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
>
> Well, they've been seen supporting that massively powerful supervillain
> team that trashed the Avengers (the one that had the Juggernaut as a
> member).
I don't remember that group (The Exemplars?) having Triune connections. Are you
sure?
I think they were secretly funding Pagan, who kicked the Avengers around all by
his lonesome some time back.
Alan
Prestorjon
because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.>>
Well they have served together IIRC and they and the Scarlet Witch were the
only female leaders of the Avengers.
Anyway IIRC Photon was in the latest issue of Avengers where she was up in
Canada fighting the invasion. Given her powers she's the onyl person who could
really make it back to lend moral support without being a drain on the Avengers
manpower up in Canada (as she explained in the issue IIRC she could make it
back to Canada in seconds)
-----------------
He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things
We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do,
The fears of years, like a biting whip,
Had cut deep bloody grooves
Across our backs.
-Etheridge Knight
Prestorjon
team that trashed the Avengers (the one that had the Juggernaut as a
member). They're exhibiting cultlike behaviour. They're building a
spaceship for unknown purposes. They led rallies to destabilize the
Avengers' public image. All IIRC.>>
The Avengers suspect them of being behind Lord Templar and the other villain
who show up and trash things every now and then. The Triunes also appear to be
behind a smear campaign against the Avengers. It also seems likely (although
no one in the Avengers seems to suspect this yet) that they may be connected to
the disappearance of the 3D Man.
Prestorjon
you
sure?>>
Neither do I. I think he may be conflating them with Pagan and Lord Templar
who are apparently connected to the Triunes.
Prestorjon
So free speech brands you a cult if you disagree with the Avengers?>>
Not as a cult perhaps but it labels you as not necesarilly being good guys.
particularly when, as in the case of the Triunes, there was covert manipulation
of events instead of public outcries against the Avengers. The Triunes also
apparently hired Taskmaster to pose as Cap and lead a group of reserve Avengers
in a breaking and entering scheme in order to further discredit the Avengers.
IIRC during this whole thing the Triunes were expressing no public hostility
towards the Avengers, although they were disappointed at the Avengers publicly
anti-Triune stance.
>There's also a Usenet-type injoke in Young Heroes in Love.
Realy? What?
Prestorjon
ex-Avengers for breaking into their building and destroying property.>>
Well it wasn't really framing. They DID do it. It was more entrapment.
Taskmaster posed as Cap and recruited them to break into the Triune place and
then they got caught.
Terence Chua
Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> Dale Hicks at dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid wrote:
> > joh...@comicsworthreading.com says...
> >> Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> >> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
> >
> > Well, they've been seen supporting that massively powerful supervillain
> > team that trashed the Avengers (the one that had the Juggernaut as a
> > member).
>
> Which issues was this? What happened? How did they support the villains?
> This seems the most relevant element, so I'm curious.
He's got it a bit off. The Triunes aren't connected to the Exemplars.
They're connected to Lord Templar and Pagan. Iron Man analyzed the
energy residue left behind by Templar's appearances and built a tracking
device - tracing it to the Triune Understanding's main temple. The
Avengers' suspicions were raised when not only did the Triunes refuse
entry for the Avengers to search, but Pagan conveniently showed up at
that exact moment and start trashing things, only to be defeated when
Lord Templar showed up. In the press conference following, Tremont gave
a veiled criticism of the Avengers, regretting that they had asked to
search the TU's facilities and disappoinment that they felt to "distract
from their failure by implicating the victims of the attack..."
All this occured in #15, and started a pattern of the TU smearing the
Avengers back-handedly. There were anti-Avengers protests outside the
mansion starting from #23, with Quicksilver discovering in #24 that most
of the protestors and the media covering the event were TU members - and
of course, Duane was shocked at the suggestion, revealing he too was a
TU member. Tremont also raised Triathlon's own suspicions by showing up
very quickly from across the country with a media crew in #26 to cover
the erztaz Avengers' team trashing of a TU facility during a battle with
the Taskmaster, again making back-handed comments to the press about the
Avengers.
The above is all circumstantial, of course, but enough for the Avengers
to classify the TU, privately at least, as a blip on the threat board.
This is all aside from the revelation to the reader, if not the
Avengers, that Tremont is either an a energy/belief absorbing alien or
superhuman and is definitely in cooperation with both Pagan and Lord
Templar and hired the Taskmaster to cast blame on the Avengers.
----------
Terence Chua kh...@tim.org
WWW: http://www.khaosworks.org
KhaOS@TinyTIM: telnet://yay.tim.org:5440
"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us will go to the stars."
Eric Northcutt
"Prestorjon" <prest...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010721230916...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> <<The Avengers suspect them for hiring Taskmaster to frame several
> ex-Avengers for breaking into their building and destroying property.>>
>
> Well it wasn't really framing. They DID do it. It was more entrapment.
> Taskmaster posed as Cap and recruited them to break into the Triune place
and
> then they got caught.
But he, Tremont, Lord Templar, or a combination of the 3, *did* frame them
for destroying property. As Cap, Taskmaster ordered the non-Avengers to
destroy an alleged mind-control machine. They balked, Cap revealed himself
as Taskmaster, there was the usual fight, then Lord Templar, or Tremont
using Templar's powers, showed up and stunned the non-Avengers into
unconsciousness. When they woke up, they were laying in a crater where the
Triune's building used to be.
Eric Northcutt.
Johanna Draper Carlson
>>> They led rallies to destabilize the Avengers' public image.
>> So free speech brands you a cult if you disagree with the Avengers?
> Not as a cult perhaps but it labels you as not necesarilly being good guys.
Just for disagreeing with the Avengers? Geez, this isn't the 50s.
> there was covert manipulation
> of events instead of public outcries against the Avengers.
Like superheroes or the government have never done *that*. This is beginning
to sound like a Batman story: "it's only ok if *I* do it." Are the Avengers
usually so conservative?
> The Triunes also apparently hired Taskmaster to pose as Cap and lead a
> group of reserve Avengers in a breaking and entering scheme in order to
> further discredit the Avengers.
Oh, I remember that story. If I were the Avengers, I'd be mad too that I
fell for the trick. I don't know that it justifies putting the group on the
Threat Board with supervillains, though -- as Presterjon said, it seems more
like entrapment. If they hadn't been willing to break the law, they wouldn't
have gotten caught at it.
Thanks to everyone for providing more background.
>> There's also a Usenet-type injoke in Young Heroes in Love.
>
> Realy? What?
I don't remember, exactly. The fire girl mentions something about online
speculation.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> They co-ordinated much of the public outcry against the Avangers which
> resulted in Triathlon being pretty much preeganged into the team.
So the Avengers are sneaking around their base and classifying them as a
threat because the Triunes are better at PR than the Avengers?
Seriously, I find this very strange -- do the Avengers have a habit of
wasting their time and resources on people who are, let's say, not exactly
supervillains? This looks more like a gang rumble than what superheroes
should be doing.
> They tracked one major supervillain, Lord Templar, to a Triune base, but the
> Triune leader refused to allow them to search the premises, using it as an
> excuse to start haranguing the Avengers for persecuting them as a religious
> group (When they were doing no such thing)
I'd disagree -- it seems the Avengers have an irrational mad on for this
group. All they've done is exercise their constitutional rights.
> There is also the question about what happened to the original 3D man, whose
> powers Triathlon appears to mimic.
This seems to fall under "they must be evil, so this must be suspicious"
circular reasoning.
Alan Travis
> > Not as a cult perhaps but it labels you as not necesarilly being good guys.
>
> Just for disagreeing with the Avengers? Geez, this isn't the 50s.
If it's obvious that someone has targeted you, you tend to pay attention to what
they
are doing. The threat board isn't on Letterman's Top 10 list. It's not public
info. Their rep with the FBI probably has access to it, but that's it. It's not
a declaration of war. It's a reminder to themselves.
> > there was covert manipulation
> > of events instead of public outcries against the Avengers.
>
> Like superheroes or the government have never done *that*. This is beginning
> to sound like a Batman story: "it's only ok if *I* do it." Are the Avengers
> usually so conservative?
If by conservative, you mean that they are suspicious whenever anyone creates
heated protests outside their HQ by using their own members and their member
within the press to artificially create a situation? I think most agencies on
Earth would pay attention if someone were doing that. I don't remember any
stories where the Avengers sent the heroes to protest outside a super-villain's
pad.
> > The Triunes also apparently hired Taskmaster to pose as Cap and lead a
> > group of reserve Avengers in a breaking and entering scheme in order to
> > further discredit the Avengers.
>
> Oh, I remember that story. If I were the Avengers, I'd be mad too that I
> fell for the trick.
They were.
> I don't know that it justifies putting the group on the
> Threat Board with supervillains, though -- as Presterjon said, it seems more
> like entrapment. If they hadn't been willing to break the law, they wouldn't
> have gotten caught at it.
Well, it alone might not but, again, there are many more events that together
have led to their inclusion. It's not just one.
> Thanks to everyone for providing more background.
You're welcome.
Alan
Alan Travis
> Brian Doyle at brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
>
> > They co-ordinated much of the public outcry against the Avangers which
> > resulted in Triathlon being pretty much preeganged into the team.
>
> So the Avengers are sneaking around their base and classifying them as a
> threat because the Triunes are better at PR than the Avengers?
Nope. They are sneaking around and classifying them as a threat because
Pagan (a
powerful villain character) was traced back to the Triune HQ. Pagan was
defeated
by Lord Templar (Triune) in a series of manufactured publicity stunts
benefitting
the Triunes at the Avengers expense. Hiring Taskmaster to trick some
Avengers
(not actual members, but reserve members) into make a PR debacle was
another clue
that they have something up their sleeve that might not be kosher.
> Seriously, I find this very strange -- do the Avengers have a habit of
> wasting their time and resources on people who are, let's say, not exactly
> supervillains? This looks more like a gang rumble than what superheroes
> should be doing.
To me, it's an interesting story where the team are not simply waiting
for the
villain to hatch his plan so they can go in swinging. Are you saying
that the
book should only
have the Avengers fight obvious supervillains, waiting around for them
to spring
their world dominating plans before getting off their cans to do
something about
it?
I would have thought you would appreciate a different take on superhero
/
supervillain clashes.
> > They tracked one major supervillain, Lord Templar, to a Triune base, but the
> > Triune leader refused to allow them to search the premises, using it as an
> > excuse to start haranguing the Avengers for persecuting them as a religious
> > group (When they were doing no such thing)
>
> I'd disagree -- it seems the Avengers have an irrational mad on for this
> group. All they've done is exercise their constitutional rights.
That's not true, Johanna. It's not irrational. Entrapment is not a
constitutional right. Creating a supervillain to tear up the streets of
NY so the
superhero mascot for your religion can defeat him in public is not a
consitutional
right. All the Avengers have done is put them on a threat board and
sent two
members of their team undercover into the group. The reasons why have
been made
clear.
> > There is also the question about what happened to the original 3D man, whose
> > powers Triathlon appears to mimic.
>
> This seems to fall under "they must be evil, so this must be suspicious"
> circular reasoning.
Well, the woman's husband has gone missing. And Triathlon does appear
to have his
powers.
Alan
Matt Adler
> I'd disagree -- it seems the Avengers have an irrational mad on for this
> group. All they've done is exercise their constitutional rights.
Admit it-- you're a spokesman for the Triunes, out to discredit the
Avengers.
--
"Hmm, Mr. Immortal has the makings of an interesting concept, but c'mon,
Flatman is kind of dopey."
"Dopey? Where's your SENSE OF WONDER? Your vacant eyes betray the DEADNESS
OF YOUR VERY SOUL!"
-- As told by Adam Cadre
Johanna Draper Carlson
> you're a spokesman for the Triunes, out to discredit the Avengers.
Hee hee hee. Yeah, you broke through my clever cover. :)
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
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Mark W Modrall
>contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
>investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
>ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
>doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
public evidence or meta-evidence? Kurt has dropped lots of pointers
that the triunes are rotten at the core (though he has also pointed out that
many innocent believers are involved). As readers, we've seen the triunes
scheming and doing bad stuff. The avengers has seen them blow up a building to
frame some other avengers and have seen suspicious interplays between various
villans appearing to act in the triune's interest. And now there's the whole
"you stole my husband" stuff coming about the 3d man...
yes, there have been bits about it. my complaint is that it's dragged
on way too long...
-mark
Mark W Modrall
the building was blown up (by the triunes) and tagged on the avengers. The
Avengers in question only got to be guilty of B&E; the triunes did the
destruction of property...
-mark
In article <20010721230916...@ng-fw1.aol.com>,
John Jakala
> Oh, I remember that story. If I were the Avengers, I'd be mad too that I
> fell for the trick. I don't know that it justifies putting the group on the
> Threat Board with supervillains, though
I thought that Tremont's inclusion on the board was supposed to be
more ambiguous since (unbeknownst to Triathalon, I'm assuming) the
Avengers are also keeping tabs on other Avengers on the 'threat
board'. At least this is what I got out of the scene the way Busiek
staged it. It seems as though the board has expanded to more of a
general 'status board' for those the Avengers want to keep tabs on,
not just a threat board anymore.
- John Jakala
Ralf Haring
wrote:
>I thought that Tremont's inclusion on the board was supposed to be
>more ambiguous since (unbeknownst to Triathalon, I'm assuming) the
>Avengers are also keeping tabs on other Avengers on the 'threat
>board'. At least this is what I got out of the scene the way Busiek
>staged it. It seems as though the board has expanded to more of a
>general 'status board' for those the Avengers want to keep tabs on,
>not just a threat board anymore.
As the book states, after showing the status of all the baddies, the
display cycled to the next phase, which seemed to only monitor
Avengers (Justice, Firestar, Hawkeye, Iron Man). I didn't get the
sense that they were all together on the same display.
-Ralf Haring
"The mind must be the harder, the heart the keener,
the spirit the greater, as our strength grows less."
-Byrhtwold, The Battle of Maldon
Prestorjon
Just for disagreeing with the Avengers? Geez, this isn't the 50s.>>
Well they ARE the good guys. Especailly from the Avnegers POV.
>Like superheroes or the government have never done *that*. This is beginning
>to sound like a Batman story: "it's only ok if *I* do it." Are the Avengers
>usually so conservative?
Superheroes are almost never shown as having any kinds of public relations
program (aside from maybe giving a speach after some battle) let alone a covert
one. When governments or other organizations covertly manipulate demonstrators
to discredit their openents we generally see that as wrong. Lets not fall into
the fallacy that just becauise other people have done it that its okay for
everyone to do it.
>If I were the Avengers, I'd be mad too that I
>fell for the trick. I don't know that it justifies putting the group on the
>Threat Board with supervillains, though -- as Presterjon said, it seems more
>like entrapment. If they hadn't been willing to break the law, they wouldn't
>have gotten caught at it.
You seem to be really stretching it. Entrapment is illegal under US law for
preciesely the reason that we consider it an immoral way to go about obtaining
convictions. I think you're just looking for reasons now to disapprove of the
premise. If there was, say, a political party who was using covert
manipulation of ostensibly independent protestors in order to discredit a rival
and then had someone impersonate a major figure in said rivals organization in
order to convince some junior members of that organization to commit, and were
also covertly supporting two known criminals who had committed unprovoked
attacks upon the same rival organization we'd be up in arms. The Triunes
aren't any more or less special.
Prestorjon
a declaration of war. >>
Actually considering that he'd a member of the Triune nderstanding he probably
doesn't have access.
Dale Hicks
says...
>
> He's got it a bit off. The Triunes aren't connected to the Exemplars.
> They're connected to Lord Templar and Pagan.
You mean those "emplars" were different people? Oops. Thanks for the
correction and for expounding on the matter.
> Iron Man analyzed the
> energy residue left behind by Templar's appearances and built a tracking
> device - tracing it to the Triune Understanding's main temple.
While the Avengers didn't know it, there was a scene that cemented for
the reader that there was a definite connection between Tremont and
Templar, correct?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
says...
>
> I don't remember that group (The Exemplars?) having Triune connections. Are you
> sure?
> I think they were secretly funding Pagan, who kicked the Avengers around all by
> his lonesome some time back.
Yes, I was apparently mistaken. In my defense, they were new characters
that were capable of really kicking the Avengers' butts. I think I may
even be guilty of assuming that Pagan was a member of the Exemplars
because of that.
I suppose I need to reread the series, if I ever get the comics in order
again.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
David Goldfarb
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>While the Avengers didn't know it, there was a scene that cemented for
>the reader that there was a definite connection between Tremont and
>Templar, correct?
There've been a couple. The most explicit was in #26, when we see
Tremont directly contact Templar and use his powers to travel quickly
from Hawaii to New York.
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "You can't do only one thing."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
| -- John W. Campbell, Jr.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
TJ7512
>Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories?
--well during Roger Stern's tenure on the Avengers, Monica served under Jan.
Stern didn't really write the stories with "budding friendships" in mind, so if
they bonded to a deep degree, we didn't see it.
That said, they were on a first name basis (and to Monica, this was a big deal,
as she was hesitant to reveal her name for a time)
> I ask
>because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
>up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
--I thought it was made clear she "showed up" to support Jan. Remember she
didn't head straight there. She went to assist the other Avengers, and when
things were stable, she went to help Jan.
>Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
>seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
>character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
>interacting with a male character without flirting.
--I've been lobbying for a series for the former Captain Marvel (a much better
name, IMHO, than Photon) for a looooooooong time.
From comments by Kurt Busiek though, he's got some difficulty in writing her
powers, and that possibly plays into why she isn't used as much as some of us
would like. Of course, since issue one, she's appeared in 7 of the stories
he's written and in all of them, she's been in character (which I imagine
wasn't his problem w/her) and he's got a good grasp of her powers.
>What is the justification for doing that?
--are you new to the Avengers? The Triune helped orchestrate anti mutant
demonstrations outside the Mansion. The Avengers also tracked Lord Templar to
the Triune HQ and were refused the right to pursue him (LT having been a bad
guy). That cast some shadow of mistrust onto the Triune.
TJ7512
>
--sadly it wasn't that long really. She became team leader in issue 279, and
lasted until 294.
Alan Travis
> << Their rep with the FBI probably has access to it, but that's it. It's not
> a declaration of war. >>
>
> Actually considering that he'd a member of the Triune nderstanding he probably
> doesn't have access.
But doesn't Duane know full well that the Avengers consider the Triunes a possible
threat?
Alan
Alan Travis
> Matt Adler at mad...@ic.sunysb.edu wrote:
>
> > you're a spokesman for the Triunes, out to discredit the Avengers.
>
> Hee hee hee. Yeah, you broke through my clever cover. :)
If Matt broke through it, it wasn't all that clever.
Couldn't resist. Sorry.
Alan
Matt Adler
news:3B5BD91A...@earthlink.net...
Another Triune collaborator. Arrest him.
Tim Roll-Pickering
Though given the chaos the Avengers were in from around issue #290 until
about #343 that is long for the time!
Terence Chua
Alan Travis <alnt...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yes he does, and it makes him damned uncomfortable, not to mention
putting him in a very awkward position when it comes to people he's
admired for years saying that his beliefs stem from an evil sort. There
was that magnificent scene in Avengers #25 when Cap snapped at Duane
(much more harshly than he deserved) for suggesting that Juggernaut, as
a criminal, be left to die. You really felt sorry for the poor guy.
Terence Chua
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
> While the Avengers didn't know it, there was a scene that cemented for
> the reader that there was a definite connection between Tremont and
> Templar, correct?
Yes. Tremont was shown in conference with Templar and Pagan at least on
two occasions that I remember (once in shadow and another explicitly
shown).
Robert Carnegie
> As readers, we've seen the triunes
> scheming and doing bad stuff. The avengers has seen them blow up a building to
> frame some other avengers and have seen suspicious interplays between various
> villans appearing to act in the triune's interest. And now there's the whole
> "you stole my husband" stuff coming about the 3d man...
I remember that time when the Avengers played on David Letterman's show.
Now they're going to be on Jerry Springer's?
Pedro Ferreira
> Spoilers...
>
> Were Photon and Wasp particularly close friends in earlier stories? I ask
> because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
> up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
No need to be cynical in this case - Photon (at the time called Captain
Marvel) was indeed quite close to Wasp - and indeed close to most members
of the Avengers. She had an amazing personality, and got along nicely with
everyone. Which leads us to...
>
> Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
> seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
> character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
> interacting with a male character without flirting.
Yup, as written by her creator (and Kurt), Roger Stern, she was... Different.
Level-headed, inteligent, sensitive - and very, very strong. We're talking
about a woman who would face down Thor, Hercules and Namor without
hesitating - with words first, and power second, if need be. She earned the
respect of everyone on the team, to the point even Captain America
recommended her for *leader*. I'd urge you to read "Avengers under
Siege", the TPB of one of the Avengers' best stories of the period. She has
a strong presence there, and the very final scene, between Monica and
Captain America, is still strong enough to bring tears to my eyes.
>
> It's a shame that the story, in
> contrast, ends on such an unheroic note, with Avengers members continuing to
> investigate the Triunes. What is the justification for doing that? Justice's
> ranting wasn't very convincing to me. Is there any evidence of the Triunes
> doing anything more than creating a superhero and speaking their minds?
I think Kurt is trying to muddy the waters a little, by having the Avengers
getting a little dirty when it comes to the Triune - certainly Justice and
Firestar's mission is difficult to justify legally, or morally. That said, the
Triune
has all but played fair - the Avengers have reasons to suspect connections
to Lord Templar (a very dangerous villain), the Triune manipulated the media
against them and extended them a trap (#26) by trying to frame several
members for the destruction of one of their HQ's.
>
> As if seeing Usenet-raised questions about Triathlon (how does he feel about
> the Triunes being listed on the threat board) becoming part of the story
> wasn't enough,
I personally thought that was *needed*. And all the more interesting to see
questions raised here answered in the comic.
Pedro
Consul de Designers
> Yes he does, and it makes him damned uncomfortable, not to mention
> putting him in a very awkward position when it comes to people he's
> admired for years saying that his beliefs stem from an evil sort. There
> was that magnificent scene in Avengers #25 when Cap snapped at Duane
> (much more harshly than he deserved) for suggesting that Juggernaut, as
> a criminal, be left to die. You really felt sorry for the poor guy.
Maybe ... but I was just musing in my head, "Dammit Duane! Think for minute
before you open your mouth! This is Cap you're talking to!?!"
--
till next time,
Jameson Stalanthas Yu, 'mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human'
Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners
Link at: http://www.dolphins-cove.com
Shawn Hill
: Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message news:<B7804314.46091%joh...@comicsworthreading.com>...
And as usual, Tri, sensitive-mode always on, over-reacts. Though this
issue was also a lot about healing those problems; and at least there's
never been any indication that he, personally, is unworthy of Avenger
status. I mean, if Stingray and the BlackKnight get to play, why not him?
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: Johanna:
:> I ask
:>because I'm just a tad cynical about a black member of the Avengers showing
:>up suddenly to listen to another black member unburden himself.
: --I thought it was made clear she "showed up" to support Jan. Remember she
: didn't head straight there. She went to assist the other Avengers, and when
: things were stable, she went to help Jan.
Johanna: are you cynical about Dr. Benton breaking up with Liz Corday to
date Cleo on ER? Some people of both races are quite behind the idea of
black people being shown talking to and interacting with other black
people (and not serving as some sort of tokens on white teams) in fiction.
:>Just from her appearance here, I'd like to see a lot more of Photon. She
:>seems a very cool character. It's especially refreshing to see a female
:>character treated like an adult, with a sensible head on her shoulders and
:>interacting with a male character without flirting.
: --I've been lobbying for a series for the former Captain Marvel (a much better
: name, IMHO, than Photon) for a looooooooong time.
The only real controversy about Photon has always been her unfortunate
inheritance of a name that didn't really fit her. Photon is far better, I
think, as it's less generic, relates to her powers, and doesn't borrow
from a continuity into which she doesn't really fit.
That said, I much prefer Ms. Marvel to Warbird, always have, always will.
There's nothing "bird" like about Carol Danvers (yes, she can both fly and
pilot, but so what). So it must just come down to personal preference, I
suppose.
: From comments by Kurt Busiek though, he's got some difficulty in writing her
: powers, and that possibly plays into why she isn't used as much as some of us
: would like. Of course, since issue one, she's appeared in 7 of the stories
: he's written and in all of them, she's been in character (which I imagine
: wasn't his problem w/her) and he's got a good grasp of her powers.
I think Monica's biggest problem is that she's TOO powerful. She works
better in small doses, or in cosmic stories like Avengers Infinity.
:>What is the justification for doing that?
: --are you new to the Avengers? The Triune helped orchestrate anti mutant
: demonstrations outside the Mansion. The Avengers also tracked Lord Templar to
: the Triune HQ and were refused the right to pursue him (LT having been a bad
: guy). That cast some shadow of mistrust onto the Triune.
I think it's interesting that they may not be out to get the Avengers per
se, but that they see them as a threat to their own, larger (perhaps quite
mad, perhaps totally necessary) religious agenda of preparing for a coming
alien apocalypse, or whatever was hinted at by the spaceship preparations
in the Annual.
Shawn
Matt Adler
> That said, I much prefer Ms. Marvel to Warbird, always have, always will.
> There's nothing "bird" like about Carol Danvers (yes, she can both fly and
> pilot, but so what). So it must just come down to personal preference, I
> suppose.
Starbird might've been better, to emphasize her cosmic background.
Prestorjon
date Cleo on ER? Some people of both races are quite behind the idea of
black people being shown talking to and interacting with other black
people (and not serving as some sort of tokens on white teams) in fiction.>>
THe difference being that the folks on ER are people working together on a
daily basis. He didn't fly cross country just to talk to her (although for
Photon flying cross countyr is like a trip to the corner store)
KurtBusiek
> There's nothing "bird" like about Carol Danvers (yes, she can both fly and
> pilot, but so what). So it must just come down to personal preference, I
> suppose.
>>Starbird might've been better, to emphasize her cosmic background.>>
Except that "Starbird" doesn't mean anything -- it's just two words stuck
together. Ultimately, in superhero nomenclature, it means "most-likely-female
character from or of the stars." It's kinda generic.
"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would. Her flight skills, her
military skills and her Air Force background are all at least suggested by the
name -- and I'd think emphasizing the fact that she spent some time in space
during her career, or that her origin is tied to a character from space isn't
as important as any of those things.
But heck, that's why they have horseraces...
kdb
Matt Adler
news:20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
I see your point. Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and is
more evocative of the type of character Carol is. Warbird sounds harsher and
more violent, two characteristics I've never associated with Carol despite
her military background. Warbird sounds like a villain's name to me.
KurtBusiek
type of character Carol is.>>
Fair enough, though I don't agree.
I can't see Carol taking on any name that ends in "bird" unless it's already
part of an existing word. Names with "bird" naturally in them mean whatever
the word means -- mockingbird, blackbird, songbird -- but names with "bird"
attached seem like ways to feminize the name and make it "girlier," and Carol's
never been one to do that. If her name was "Star" something, I can see her
going for Starwoman or Starstrike or something rather than Starbird. "-bird"
as a suffix rather than a part of an existing word seems to fit better for
either young characters or feminine characters, and she wouldn't emphasize
either. Female, yes. Feminine, no.
"Warbird," though, is a real word; if you split it up, you get "girl hero of
WAR!," but it doesn't sound that way to me -- and wouldn't to Carol, either.
So while War Machine sounds like a villain's name to me, because it emphasizes
the destructive capacity of an entire nation, Warbird suggests the actual
object -- a fighter plane. War Machine sounds aggressive to me, while Warbird
just sound military -- as appropriate in defending freedom as in making bombing
runs.
It's a usage thing, I guess -- I can see a newspaper story talking about how
the Nazi war machine rolled through Holland, crushing all resistance, but not
one talking about how the Allied war machine liberated Diebenwald. It seems
only appropriate in an ugly context. On the other hand, I can easily imagine a
story about British warbirds and their plucky pilots defending England from the
Blitz; it rings heroically just fine -- and since it's an affectionate slang
term, it's less likely to be used in reference to the other side's air force.
All in all, though, it seems readers are getting used to it a lot faster than
they've accepted "Photon"...
kdb
R. Tang
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>>>Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and is more evocative of the
>type of character Carol is.>>
>
>Fair enough, though I don't agree.
>
>I can't see Carol taking on any name that ends in "bird" unless it's already
>part of an existing word. Names with "bird" naturally in them mean whatever
>the word means -- mockingbird, blackbird, songbird -- but names with "bird"
>attached seem like ways to feminize the name and make it "girlier," and Carol's
>never been one to do that. If her name was "Star" something, I can see her
>going for Starwoman or Starstrike or something rather than Starbird.
Hmmm....Starfire...
--
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
R. Tang
Matt Adler <mad...@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>I see your point. Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and is
>more evocative of the type of character Carol is. Warbird sounds harsher and
>more violent, two characteristics I've never associated with Carol despite
>her military background.
Ummm. Ever catch her '60s appearances? Harsh was definitely an
apt describer (shrill, too, but I disgress....)
>Warbird sounds like a villain's name to me.
>
>--
>
>"Hmm, Mr. Immortal has the makings of an interesting concept, but c'mon,
>Flatman is kind of dopey."
>
>"Dopey? Where's your SENSE OF WONDER? Your vacant eyes betray the DEADNESS
>OF YOUR VERY SOUL!"
>
>-- As told by Adam Cadre
>
>
Matt Adler
> All in all, though, it seems readers are getting used to it a lot faster
than
> they've accepted "Photon"...
Hmm, I think it suits her fine. Thinking of changing it?
Matt Adler
news:9jthtv$ac4$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
> In article <omr87.16779$UH6.2...@news02.optonline.net>,
> Matt Adler <mad...@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
> >I see your point. Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and is
> >more evocative of the type of character Carol is. Warbird sounds harsher
and
> >more violent, two characteristics I've never associated with Carol
despite
> >her military background.
>
> Ummm. Ever catch her '60s appearances? Harsh was definitely an
> apt describer (shrill, too, but I disgress....)
I guess you're referring to her interactions with Mar-Vell. I always took
that behavior as indicative of her desire to be taken seriously at her job,
in a mostly male-dominated environment.
CleV
wrote:
>"Shawn Hill" <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>> That said, I much prefer Ms. Marvel to Warbird, always have, always will.
>> There's nothing "bird" like about Carol Danvers (yes, she can both fly and
>> pilot, but so what). So it must just come down to personal preference, I
>> suppose.
>Starbird might've been better, to emphasize her cosmic background.
Ms Marvel, dammit!
(Warbird has a meaning. Starbird is yet another of these generic
names generated by the Comics Characters Names Generator (TM))
CleV
<snip explanation I agree with (and unwittingly duplicated this
morning)>
>All in all, though, it seems readers are getting used to it a lot faster than
>they've accepted "Photon"...
But ... no, no, no, she's "Ms Marvel" and that's that!
CleV
wrote:
>"KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>> All in all, though, it seems readers are getting used to it a lot faster
>than
>> they've accepted "Photon"...
>Hmm, I think it suits her fine. Thinking of changing it?
Now *she* could be Starbird! :-)
CleV
wrote:
>"R. Tang" <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
>news:9jthtv$ac4$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>> In article <omr87.16779$UH6.2...@news02.optonline.net>,
>> Matt Adler <mad...@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>> >I see your point. Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and is
>> >more evocative of the type of character Carol is. Warbird sounds harsher
>>and more violent, two characteristics I've never associated with Carol
>>despite her military background.
>> Ummm. Ever catch her '60s appearances? Harsh was definitely an
>> apt describer (shrill, too, but I disgress....)
>I guess you're referring to her interactions with Mar-Vell. I always took
>that behavior as indicative of her desire to be taken seriously at her job,
>in a mostly male-dominated environment.
Didn't she only debut in the 70's?
Paul O'Brien
<kurtb...@aol.comics> writes
>
>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would.
I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people
who (like me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
Brevity is the sister of talent.
Alan David Doane
<pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, KurtBusiek
><kurtb...@aol.comics> writes
>>
>>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
>>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
>>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would.
>
>I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people
>who (like me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.
Well, one of the greatest things about comics is when it expands your
knowledge of language.
Excelsior!
Alan David Doane
Editor-in-Chief
Comic Book Galaxy
One of Usenet's Most Beloved Comics Web Sites
http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com
TORI PAGAC
costume not that a change is needed i love that costume>nip explanation I agree
with (and unwittingly duplicated this
>morning)>
>
>>All in all, though, it seems readers are getting used to it a lot faster
>than
>>they've accepted "Photon"...
>
>But ... no, no, no, she's "Ms Marvel" and that's that!
>
>
>
>
>
>
tori would be comic author and full time comic junkie
http://members.tripod.com/~magik88285/index.html
my marvel females links site
/note anti spam when replying
KurtBusiek
than
> they've accepted "Photon"...
>>Hmm, I think it suits her fine. Thinking of changing it?>>
I don't know who you're referring to, Warbird or Photon. But no, I'm not
thinking of changing either.
I don't much like "Photon" as a name, but I think that Roger Stern ought to
have approval over any new name, and he hasn't approved any yet.
kdb
KurtBusiek
Let's see ... she's been Carol Danvers for 33 years so far, from MARVEL
SUPER-HEROES #13 (in 1968) to today.
She was Ms. Marvel for almost 4 years, from MS. MARVEL #1 (in 1977) to AVENGERS
#200 (in 1980).
She was Binary for 16 years, from X-MEN #164 (in 1982) until AVENGERS vol. 3 #4
(in 1998).
And she's been Warbird from then 'til now -- over three years and counting.
Not long until she's been Warbird longer than she was Ms. Marvel. And hey,
she's already made more appearances as Warbird than as Binary -- and she must
be closing in on having made more appearances as Warbird than as Ms. Marvel.
Time rolls on, time rolls on...
kdb
KurtBusiek
me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.>>
Yeah, and if I could have come up with a name that had more broad-based
immediacy, I would -- I went through a whole encyclopedia of military aircraft
looking for names, but the closest they had to good ones -- names like Spitfire
and Harrier -- were already taken.
But reading's supposed to expand your horizons, too -- so much as I'd like to
hit an already-existing chord every time, if we did only that no one would ever
encounter new things.
If I ever get to do that WARBIRD mini-series that Tom and I talk about every
now and then, there'll be enough old warbirds in it to get the usage across
even to people who haven't picked it up yet...
kdb
KurtBusiek
implies an *old* combat aircraft that's been restored. A P-51, a Zero, or an
F-86 would be a warbird. An F-15 or MiG-29 is definitely not called a warbird.
>>
There are warbird enthusiasts who would disagree with you. Not a lot of F-15s
in private hands yet, but any of them that are would be considered warbirds.
But Carol is older than most of her superhero contemporaries (she's about 36,
older than Tony Stark, than Wanda or Pietro, than Jan, and most other heroes,
who seem to hover on one or the other side of 30), -and- she's been restored,
so who knows?
But I don't think "warbird" specifically connotes "old" or "restored," but
rather ex-military and now privately owned. That definition encompasses any
old and restored warbird, of course -- but isn't limited to it. And since
Carol's both ex-military and definitely privately-owned, it seems to fit that
way, too.
Here's how the folks at Warbird Alley ( http://www.warbirdalley.com/ ) define
the term:
"A warbird is an airplane that was once used by the armed forces of any
country, and is now privately owned. Many hundreds of ex-military aircraft
from around the the world have been saved from destruction and given new life
by devoted men and women. These brave souls involve themselves with these
historic aircraft not only for the love of flying and the look, sound, feel and
smell of the aircraft themselves, but also for the historical significance
these aircraft played in the shaping of their respective nations.
"Whether a docile training airplane, a large cargo transport, a low-and-slow
observation plane, a four-engine bomber, a nimble World War II fighter, a
supersonic jet or a rescue helicopter, warbirds helped make history. They
served over the jungles of Vietnam, in the deserts of North Africa, over the
bloody battlefields of Europe, and at countless training bases at home and
abroad. They provided food and supplies to soldiers and civilians alike,
transported Presidents and Generals, and saved countless lives, both in war and
peacetime. They have been a major part of some of the most significant events
of the 20th Century.
"But most of all, they have provided the "brute force" that nations needed when
diplomacy failed. Almost every nation on earth has at least a small air force
which serves as an important instrument of national security. The value of the
airplane as a weapon of war was developed almost concurrently with its value as
a mode of transportation."
They also use the term "classic ex-military aircraft," and I'd say "classic" is
a fine term for Carol...
kdb
Shawn Hill
:> That said, I much prefer Ms. Marvel to Warbird, always have, always will.
It works, it functions, it's just not...great. Yes, planes are often given
female names. Yes, Carol is a warrior woman with piloting skills. Still, I
don't think Starbird is any less or more generic; in fact, stars
symbolizing so many things, it's almost more open-ended in a way. And, as
you say, with the Kree/Captain Marvel background/connection, not to
mention the Binary abilities which still form the basis of her powers, do
relate to a "star" type name.
Still, it's an old debate, and not one I meant to start again. I'm much
more pleased that Carol still exists, in recognizable form, as the complex
feminist alcoholic brawler she's always been, than I am worried about her
code name.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: The problem I had with "Warbird" when I read it, though, is that Warbird implies
: an *old* combat aircraft that's been restored. A P-51, a Zero, or an F-86 would
: be a warbird. An F-15 or MiG-29 is definitely not called a warbird.
: So Carol's choice of name seems to imply that she considers herself dated and
: past her time, but worth remembering and still capable of putting on a good
: airshow. :-)
LOL!!
Of course, in Marvel time, it's only been about a year since she was
Binary, and, what, 5 years since Rogue stole her powers?
Shawn
Priest
"KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
> They also use the term "classic ex-military aircraft," and I'd say
"classic" is
> a fine term for Carol...
And for Kurt?
Coming way late to the party: why'd we ever change it from Ms. Marvel?
Before I start whining and bitching about the seemingly arbitrary nature
of these kinds of name changes...
cjp
Can't Read Legion Because
He Doesn't Know Which One
Is Bouncing Boy Anymore
KurtBusiek
She lost her powers, hung out with the X-Men for a while, went to outer space,
got new powers that involved channeling a white-hole star, and got a new
costume and new name (Binary) at that point.
kdb
Matt Adler
> >>I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people who
(like
> me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.>>
>
> Yeah, and if I could have come up with a name that had more broad-based
> immediacy, I would -- I went through a whole encyclopedia of military
aircraft
> looking for names, but the closest they had to good ones -- names like
Spitfire
> and Harrier -- were already taken.
Harrier?! What character is named Harrier? (not that I think it's a good
name)
CleV
:-)
The heart wants what it wants ...
CleV
<pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, KurtBusiek
><kurtb...@aol.comics> writes
>>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
>>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
>>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would.
>I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people
>who (like me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.
Have the feeling it's very America-specific. (I'd never heard the
term either.)
KurtBusiek
X-MEN villains -- Hardcase and the Harriers.
kdb
Michael Alan Chary
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>"Whether a docile training airplane, a large cargo transport, a low-and-slow
>observation plane, a four-engine bomber, a nimble World War II fighter, a
>supersonic jet or a rescue helicopter, warbirds helped make history. They
>served over the jungles of Vietnam, in the deserts of North Africa, over the
>bloody battlefields of Europe, and at countless training bases at home and
>abroad. They provided food and supplies to soldiers and civilians alike,
>transported Presidents and Generals, and saved countless lives, both in war and
>peacetime. They have been a major part of some of the most significant events
>of the 20th Century.
>
>"But most of all, they have provided the "brute force" that nations needed when
>diplomacy failed. Almost every nation on earth has at least a small air force
>which serves as an important instrument of national security. The value of the
>airplane as a weapon of war was developed almost concurrently with its value as
>a mode of transportation."
This sounds like PR blurb from Air America.
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Michael Alan Chary
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>>>I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people who (like
>me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.>>
>
>Yeah, and if I could have come up with a name that had more broad-based
>immediacy, I would -- I went through a whole encyclopedia of military aircraft
>looking for names, but the closest they had to good ones -- names like Spitfire
>and Harrier -- were already taken.
What about Starfighter?
Paul O'Brien
<kurtb...@aol.comics> writes
>>>Harrier?! What character is named Harrier?>>
>
>X-MEN villains -- Hardcase and the Harriers.
Surely that name's up for grabs by now.
The Harriers only ever appeared in one issue. I think a couple of
them have since turned up in ultra-minor cameo roles, but the team
is long since defunct. These guys are one step above being throwaway
villains from Marvel Comics Presents.
Adam Cadre
> Harrier?! What character is named Harrier?
He's one of the Supremacists, a band of mercenaries who fought the Black
Panther in issue #2 of the BLACK PANTHER miniseries of the late 1980s.
(Other Supremacists included Voortrekker and the White Avenger.)
-----
Adam Cadre, Brooklyn, NY
web site: http://adamcadre.ac
novel: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060195584/adamcadreac
centrix
series. The Starjammers could have gotten their own book or she could have
led the Imperial Guard ( who I miss.)
Dickie
"KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> > That said, I much prefer Ms. Marvel to Warbird, always have, always
will.
> > There's nothing "bird" like about Carol Danvers (yes, she can both fly
and
> > pilot, but so what). So it must just come down to personal preference, I
> > suppose.
>
> >>Starbird might've been better, to emphasize her cosmic background.>>
>
> Except that "Starbird" doesn't mean anything -- it's just two words stuck
> together. Ultimately, in superhero nomenclature, it means
"most-likely-female
> character from or of the stars." It's kinda generic.
>
> "Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't
refer
> to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
> about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would. Her flight skills, her
> military skills and her Air Force background are all at least suggested by
the
> name -- and I'd think emphasizing the fact that she spent some time in
space
> during her career, or that her origin is tied to a character from space
isn't
> as important as any of those things.
>
> But heck, that's why they have horseraces...
>
> kdb
>
>
>
>
>
KurtBusiek
There's a "Starfighter" in ASTRO CITY.
Beyond that, I still don't think her time in outer space is morer important
than her USAF background, so I didn't go in that direction for a name.
kdb
KurtBusiek
Could be. But I wouldn't use it for Carol anyway -- Harriers were originally
British, and that's the resonance they have with me, at least. Also, a harrier
is a kind of dog, too, and one that looks a lot like a beagle, and that doesn't
fit terribly well for me either. It's a bird, too, and that fits well enough
-- it's a raptor -- but the dog part doesn't.
And then there's the literal meaning -- someone who harries, who lays waste to
or torments through constant harrassing attack. That's not really her style.
I spent a lot of time looking for a name for her, as you can tell...
kdb
Dave Joll
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:51:33 +0100, Paul O'Brien
> ><kurtb...@aol.comics> writes
> >>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't
refer
> >>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says
more
> >>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would.
> >I see your logic, but I think the subtlety gets missed by people
> >who (like me) have never heard the word "warbird" used in that context.
> Have the feeling it's very America-specific. (I'd never heard the
> term either.)
It's used often in New Zealand... there is a regular air
show near the town of Wanaka (about 4 hours from
here) called "Warbirds over Wanaka".
Michael Alan Chary
I was actually thinking that the Lockheed Starfighter was a well-known
fighter plane.
Sean MacDonald
>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would
I just keep expecting Warbird and Deathbird to team up, along with
new characters Plague-bird and Famine-bird, to form the four
horse-birds of the apocalypse or something.
Or maybe not.
-Sean MacDonald
"He's haunted by the memory of a lost paradise/
In his youth or a dream, he can't be precise/
He's chained forever to a world that's departed/
It's not enough, it's not enough." -Pink Floyd, "Sorrow"
Thomas Galloway
Anyone able to refresh my memory on who Starfighter is there? I recall
Starwoman in AC, but not Starfighter.
tyg t...@panix.com
TORI PAGAC
cups still trying to track the first one down. some other kind of glass too t
not to mention trading cards im trying to find one of the handrawn ones.
binary sucked!
im just glad to have carol in a book and with the added bouns of she-hulk and
black widow on her split off team to boot youve made me very happy. :)
tori
future writer of a canceled she-hulk series.
jspektr
> I spent a lot of time looking for a name for her, as you can tell...
Personally, I don't care for Warbird at all (I've never heard the
term, and it makes me think of some kind of children's action figure
or cartoon character, maybe something out of Thundercats). But I can
totally concede the difficulty of finding a new name for the
character.
Any chance of playing up the military aspect, even if just to show her
flying around and describing it as being similar to what she remembers
from being in the airforce? I think that would help connect the
current character to the new name.
On the other hand, keeping the costume while ditching the name seems
strange to me. Wouldn't she be annoyed by people in the streets
calling her Ms. Marvel? Think of all the flak Prince got when he
changed his name to a symbol to protest his record label. Maintaining
the costume and changing the name would be bound to confuse people.
At least she didn't have a big "M" on her chest or anything. Though I
suppose she could have just turned it upside-down...
JSpektr - delurking of the starboard bow.
Matt Adler
news:H9X87.10564$ar1....@www.newsranger.com...
> In article <20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, KurtBusiek
says...
>
> >"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't
refer
> >to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says
more
> >about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would
>
> I just keep expecting Warbird and Deathbird to team up, along with
> new characters Plague-bird and Famine-bird, to form the four
> horse-birds of the apocalypse or something.
No, no, no.... "The Four Horsefeathers of the Apocalypse".... Groucho,
Chico, Harpo, and Zeppo.
KurtBusiek
fighter plane.>>
I haven't run across the name often enough to consider it well-known. I think
most readers would assume it was a reference to a spaceship.
kdb
KurtBusiek
cups still trying to track the first one down.>>
Er ... what difference would that make? Those deals are long, long over as far
as Marvel's concerned.
kdb
KurtBusiek
around and describing it as being similar to what she remembers
from being in the airforce?>>
It's come up here and there; I expect it'll come up in the future.
>>On the other hand, keeping the costume while ditching the name seems strange
to me. Wouldn't she be annoyed by people in the streets calling her Ms.
Marvel?>>
They don't seem to do that. Given the brief period of time she wore that
costume, it doesn't seem to have stuck in many MU citizens' minds.
Besides, she thinks she looks, and I quote, "grrrreat!" in it.
I agree with her.
kdb
Carl Henderson
news:omr87.16779$UH6.2...@news02.optonline.net:
> I see your point. Personally, I just think Starbird sounds better, and
> is more evocative of the type of character Carol is. Warbird sounds
> harsher and more violent, two characteristics I've never associated
> with Carol despite her military background. Warbird sounds like a
> villain's name to me.
I think Ms Marvel sounds better than either of them :)
--
Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
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Carl Henderson
news:20010730004042...@ng-fg1.aol.com:
Good God, man! How can you argue with Slurpee Comic Cups? Have you no soul?
Shawn Hill
:>>What about Starfighter?>>
: There's a "Starfighter" in ASTRO CITY.
: Beyond that, I still don't think her time in outer space is morer important
: than her USAF background, so I didn't go in that direction for a name.
Plus she'd sound then like her powers originated in a magic videogame or
something.
Not nearly as believable as an alien radioactive crystal and a borrowed
exo-suit.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
:>>Harrier?! What character is named Harrier?>>
: X-MEN villains -- Hardcase and the Harriers.
Isn't there one in the Female Furies in DC, too?
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: kurtb...@aol.comics (KurtBusiek) wrote in message news:<20010728233801...@ng-xa1.aol.com>...
: On the other hand, keeping the costume while ditching the name seems
: strange to me. Wouldn't she be annoyed by people in the streets
: calling her Ms. Marvel? Think of all the flak Prince got when he
: changed his name to a symbol to protest his record label. Maintaining
: the costume and changing the name would be bound to confuse people.
It's a Cockrum design, isn't it? You don't throw those out if you can help
it. Well, LSH ditched most of his 70s redesigns, but then, they were never
as sexy/sexual as the Marvel/X-ladies.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: In article <20010728003217...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, KurtBusiek says...
:>"Warbird," on the other hand, is jargon for a fighter plane. It doesn't refer
:>to birds at all, but to military airplanes. As such, I think it says more
:>about Carol as a character than "Starbird" would
: I just keep expecting Warbird and Deathbird to team up, along with
: new characters Plague-bird and Famine-bird, to form the four
: horse-birds of the apocalypse or something.
Deathbird was an original Ms. Marvel villain, wasn't she (along with
Mystique/Raven Darkholme)? I'd say things would go worse in that team-up
than whenever Carol runs into Rogue.
Shawn
TORI PAGAC
>
>Deathbird was an original Ms. Marvel villain, wasn't she (along with
>Mystique/Raven Darkholme)? I'd say things would go worse in that team-up
>than whenever Carol runs into Rogue.
>
>Shawn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Consul de Designers
> I think Ms Marvel sounds better than either of them :)
Too unspecified.
--
till next time,
Jameson Stalanthas Yu, 'mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human'
Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners
Link at: http://www.dolphins-cove.com
Consul de Designers
> I just keep expecting Warbird and Deathbird to team up, along with new characters
> Plague-bird and Famine-bird, to form the four horse-birds of the apocalypse or
> something.
Too close to Gatchaman!
Jim Longo
Monica and Jan--I never saw their relationship as mentor-student; that
seemed more appropriate to Cap. Remember, he handled most of her
training, and when Monica told him her real name, she said something
along the lines of, "I've been looking for an Avenger to open up to.
Who better than you?" Also, when the Henry Pym-Masters of Evil III
saga concluded, the last panel (one of my all-time faves, both for
artwork and narration) had Monica and She-Hulk comforting a weeping
Jan--maybe it's just me, but it seemed like three friends and equals,
not a trainee comforting her trainer.
The Triunes' rights--The Avengers know three things for certain:
--Lord Templar is a known menace, and his energies (not the
Exemplars' and not Pagan's, by the way) were traced to the Triune
Headquarters, somewhere he'd never openly appeared;
--the Triune guards sport better weaponry than some small
countries; and,
--a disproportionate number of the protesters outside the mansion
had Triune paraphernalia.
Depending on which judge you approach, you could get a search warrant
in New York with this. Firestar and Justice's undercover mission is
perfectly legit.
Warbird--I'm with Kurt on this one. I like the name, it fits her
character, and the syllable "war" doesn't automatically have a
negative connotation (remember War Machine?). Ms. Marvel just sounds
too 70s for me. As far as the costume goes, though, I still remember
something Psylocke said when she saw it: "Carol.....you actually WORE
this?"
J.