Dump On Parker
Raymond Speer
The word is that the Powers That Be figure that readership will advance
if Parker goes on a real downhill slope.
As in hungry with no meals ---- out on the streets ---- alienated from
everybody ----.
Call me when that phase is over. I prefer to read of a Spider Man who at
least has a room at the YMCA.
Wouter Valentijn
"Raymond Speer" <ray...@webtv.net> schreef in bericht
news:6479-4BC...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net...
Please, don't let him join 'The Village People.' ....
--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/startrek.html
Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's what's wrong with the world. Ever think about
that?
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'
liam=mail
True Believer Reviews
I liked where it was going when spidey became a science teacher ,
before the whole Avengers thing. It seemed sensible for a character
like Peter. Struggling to sell photos to a newspaper and going
unemployed in that process has been done so many times in the books it
just lacks any depth or purpose anymore. I feel like Marvel
editorial has laid down that Peter is not allowed to develop in order
to maintain his "classic" appearance. Of course, what was good about
the classic stories was that Peter was developing in life. They
missed the point.
Ubiquitous
wrote:
>The word is that the Powers That Be figure that readership will advance
>if Parker goes on a real downhill slope.
>
>As in hungry with no meals ---- out on the streets ---- alienated from
>everybody ----.
PLEASE tell me you're trolling!
*rolls eyes*
grinningdemon
I agree completely...whatever other problems JMS' run had, making Pete
a teacher was a great idea...it was a natural progression that fit
character and still took him back to his roots in a way that didn't
seem forced at all...the one thing that was missing in that was that
he should have still be taking pictures for the Bugle on the side to
keep his traditional supporting cast around...I hate the current
editorial policy where all character development on Pete's part must
be reset to the 70s and remain that way...other characters in the book
are allowed to grow and change (although some, like Black Cat, have
regressed along with Peter) but Peter has to stagnate...it's garbage.
True Believer Reviews
Yeah. I'm a big fan of JMS in general, but I understand where a lot
of the run criticism problems came from. I think where he excels is
in that point though, taking natural character progressions and
thinking about the characters and how they act as people more than as
super-heroes and bigger plot points. The editorial policy however
doesn't seem to just be in regards to spider-man. It's with all
characters across marvel and DC in terms of the "a-list" heroes. They
just want the "classic" forms only, as if that will raise sales from
"new" readership.
Billy Bissette
@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net:
Well, people at noscans_daily have floated the idea that the reason
why Pete and MJ didn't marry will be that Venom sexually assaulted MJ.
(The theory is based off Venom being mentioned in relation to the
event, and how Pete originally stopped using the black suit because
MJ ran into Venom. And the new guard has already gone to a similar
well with Chameleon going after Pete's roommate.)
So it can still get worse.
grinningdemon
<ot...@truebelieverreviews.com> wrote:
I'm a JMS fan, as well...I really loved the first of half of his
Spiderman run...I can't say I'm a huge fan of all the spider-totem
nonsense (which would have been easier to take if he'd broken it up
with some more traditional stories in between) but I LOVED the
characterization in that run...he handled Peter, MJ, and even Aunt May
(whom he made interesting for the first and only time) extremely
well...then came Sins Past...that was when run took a
nosedive...Quesada deserves a good chunk of the blame for that garbage
but, regardless, it's like JMS was just going through the motions
after that...the rest of the run just didn't have anywhere near the
energy (for lack of a better term) as the it had before and One More
Day is the single worst Spiderman story ever.
The editorial policy however
>doesn't seem to just be in regards to spider-man. It's with all
>characters across marvel and DC in terms of the "a-list" heroes. They
>just want the "classic" forms only, as if that will raise sales from
>"new" readership.
That's certainly true to a certain extent but Marvel has taken it to a
whole new level with Spiderman...dumping 20 years of character
development and continuity in one fell swoop while insisting all along
that they've done no such thing...and, to add insult to injury, they
way they did was so horrendously out of character that it should
actually be offensive to any true fan of the character.
grinningdemon
I have no doubt...it'll be bad enough when MJ and Harry predictably,
uncharacteristically, but innevitably hook up...but I'm sure they will
continue to find new ways to piss all over Peter and MJ's
"relationship."
Rob Dye
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:48:28 -0500, Billy Bissette
>
>
>
>
>
> <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
Yah. I happened to look at an issue while I was at the bookstore
yesterday; couldn't say which one. I flipped it open and saw a
sequence where Peter was talking to MJ on the phone, and she really
just didn't want to hear anything from him, even though his life has
gone to shit for trying to do what he thought was the right thing, and
I thought, this is all wrong, even in the context of "Brand New Day."
Remember, according to BND, Peter and MJ are one of those
relationships that is truly rare, rare and joyful enough for Mephisto
to rewrite history so that he will get some satisfaction out of
preventing it. Doesn't seem to me that he should be capable of
altering so much who MJ is that there is not even the potential for a
relationship.
But that's just me, and I'm 49, so I sure as hell don't fit their
demographic anymore.
(I didn't buy the issue, in case you were wondering. I really think I
am probably done with that forever, after the whole BND thing.)
Rob
True Believer Reviews
the sense of what people think of spider-man in the public
consciousness, MJ should at least be around as a serious love
interest. This juggle between these couple of girls who are new
characters does nothing to help marvel's intended purpose with this.
As each month goes by I just drift more toward creator owned books
because there is such a little point in following the story of these
characters.
Anim8rFSK
<53c6018b-a45a-4408...@j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Rob Dye <fr.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yah. I happened to look at an issue while I was at the bookstore
> yesterday; couldn't say which one. I flipped it open and saw a
> sequence where Peter was talking to MJ on the phone, and she really
> just didn't want to hear anything from him, even though his life has
> gone to shit for trying to do what he thought was the right thing, and
> I thought, this is all wrong, even in the context of "Brand New Day."
And the issue before, her doorbell ran in the middle of the night, and
she ran to answer it, thinking it was Peter and he needed to talk.
--
As Adam West as Bruce Wayne as Batman said in "Smack in the Middle"
the second half of the 1966 BATMAN series pilot when Jill St. John
as Molly as Robin as Molly fell into the Batmobile's atomic pile:
"What a terrible way to go-go"
grinningdemon
Yeah, it was crap...especially since I remember reading an interview
with one of the writers about MJ's return to the book and they were
talking about how she is his closest confidante who knows him better
than anyone and is always there for him...and yet all she's done since
she's come back is sleep around and bitch about how pathetic he
is...even in flashback sequences...I don't see how anyone could read
the book without coming away from it with the idea that Marvel really
HATES MJ.
>Remember, according to BND, Peter and MJ are one of those
>relationships that is truly rare, rare and joyful enough for Mephisto
>to rewrite history so that he will get some satisfaction out of
>preventing it. Doesn't seem to me that he should be capable of
>altering so much who MJ is that there is not even the potential for a
>relationship.
Don't get me started on that piece of shit...aside from the obvious
mischaracterization there, Mephisto's goal doesn't even make sense
when you look at what they actually did with BND...Peter and MJ were
still together that whole time, just not married.
>But that's just me, and I'm 49, so I sure as hell don't fit their
>demographic anymore.
Well, I'm 28 and I still think it's garbage.
grinningdemon
There are so many characters at Marvel and DC that I truly love and
want to continue to follow...but I hate seeing the way they're treated
these days...like you, I'm moving away from both publishers more and
more.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>In article
><53c6018b-a45a-4408...@j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> Rob Dye <fr.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yah. I happened to look at an issue while I was at the bookstore
>> yesterday; couldn't say which one. I flipped it open and saw a
>> sequence where Peter was talking to MJ on the phone, and she really
>> just didn't want to hear anything from him, even though his life has
>> gone to shit for trying to do what he thought was the right thing, and
>> I thought, this is all wrong, even in the context of "Brand New Day."
>
>And the issue before, her doorbell ran in the middle of the night, and
>she ran to answer it, thinking it was Peter and he needed to talk.
Yeah, that's what happens when you have a dozen different writers and
no clear direction beyond "Peter must be a loser and ass hole."
Tim Turnip
<ot...@truebelieverreviews.com> wrote:
>the sense of what people think of spider-man in the public
>consciousness, MJ should at least be around as a serious love
>interest. This juggle between these couple of girls who are new
>characters does nothing to help marvel's intended purpose with this.
I know I'm in the minority but to me, having MJ as a serious love
interest is not "classic peter" because they did not form a serious
romance until the 1980s. "Classic Peter" to me is the one who dates
around; MJ was only one of four of his love interests during the early
stories.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Yes, but she always stood out above the rest...even the way she was
introduced to the series sets her up to be something special, having
Aunt May and Anna trying to set Peter and MJ up for so long and having
them keep missing each other while never revealing her face until
their actual meeting and her memorable first words to him...I would
say MJ is Peter's classic love interest...it pretty much always came
back to her...the only other one that could even compete was Gwen and
she's kind of out of the running...and, given the way they've shat all
over the character in recent years, that's probably a good thing.
Lilith
wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:09:45 -0700 (PDT), True Believer Reviews
Ummmm. I never thought of "Classic Peter" as having dated around.
First off, I really don't think of Betty Brant as a serious love
interest. Nor Debbie with the forgettable last name. So that leaves
Gwen Stacy and MJ. Considering the buildup that Marvel gave of how MJ
had been attracted in increasing degrees to Peter when she stayed with
her Aunt Anna and leading up to the wedding I can only think of Peter
and MJ being the only ones for each other. Marvel made a big deal of
it and now they think they can get readership by disavowing the
marriage?
Classic Peter is Peter as he matured and his life became better as he
took hold of it and bettered himself. But now we're saddled with
"Retro Peter" who apparently lost all of his coping ability experience
just because "his marriage never happened."
--
Lilith
True Believer Reviews
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 06:39:10 -0500, Tim Turnip <timtur...@gmail.com>
You've got great points Lilith.
The other thing that gets forgotten is classic Peter is a nerd first
and foremost. A big geek. And that's why he's one of the most
relatable comics characters. That's what's generally missing from
Spidey in the past couple of decades, and i hate to keep going back to
JMS and the science teacher thing...but that added back in that nerd
element a little bit into the character that was nice. So when he's
got a super hot roommate trying to sleep with him, a super hot yet
nerdy girl at the police station trying to sleep with him. He's
making out with someone in the first arc of BND (I forget who). Black
Cat trying to sleep with him. I'm sorry, that's not a nerd life.
I do know that black cat's always been there and kinda been like that.
When she's done right and progresses as a character she's one of my
favorite characters in the book, but I digress.
Circling back to the original topic, yes, this leaves every arc just
throwing Peter back into unemployed, having a hard time with life and
without any deeper relationships. It just doesn't change and it
stagnates the character, and as I've mentioned, I think that's
editorial more than the writers because I've seen all of these writers
do great work elsewhere.
grinningdemon
<ot...@truebelieverreviews.com> wrote:
Even Black Cat had grown and matured beyond the point where all she
wanted was a fling with Spiderman and had no interest in the guy
behind the mask...that was dropped nearly 20 years and she was
regressed for BND right along with everything else.
Lilith
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Even Black Cat had grown and matured beyond the point where all she
>wanted was a fling with Spiderman and had no interest in the guy
>behind the mask...that was dropped nearly 20 years and she was
>regressed for BND right along with everything else.
And if you accepted that her failure to mature was caused by the fact
that Peter never married MJ then we're back to questioning the JQ
statement that "everything happened exactly the same way except that
no one remembers" as making even less sense. If BC had matured while
Peter and MJ were known to be married then she should have remained
matured even if she doesn't remember them having been married.
More suckage out of OMD/BND.
--
Lilith
True Believer Reviews
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:59:31 -0500, grinningdemon
>
It's magic.
Billy Bissette
news:4vsjs5dt3u9otj9lj...@4ax.com:
> Ummmm. I never thought of "Classic Peter" as having dated around.
> First off, I really don't think of Betty Brant as a serious love
> interest. Nor Debbie with the forgettable last name. So that leaves
> Gwen Stacy and MJ. Considering the buildup that Marvel gave of how MJ
> had been attracted in increasing degrees to Peter when she stayed with
> her Aunt Anna and leading up to the wedding I can only think of Peter
> and MJ being the only ones for each other.
To me, Gwen was the one for Peter. MJ never really fit for me. The
build up to MJ was part of the problem. It felt like the writers were
trying to ram MJ down the readers' throats, saying "Forget Gwen, MJ
is the new hotness and the perfect girl for Pete". Which is pretty
much what was going on behind the scenes, as the writers didn't like
Gwen and MJ was engineered to be more interesting to them.
Funny thing is, once the writers actually got MJ and established
her as "the one", they ran out of ideas just as they claimed to have
with Gwen. She's a soap star, a super model, can't even star in an
off-broadway play, down to earth girl next door, world famous, no
one recognizes her, married to Pete, separated from Pete, back with
Pete, separated from Pete,... It was something of a mess. The problem
was never Gwen in the first place, it was the writers at Marvel.
grinningdemon
I never found Gwen particularly interesting...I actually find her more
interesting in death than in the stories that actually feature her...I
agree with a lot of what you say about writers not knowing what to do
with MJ but I still think she's a far more interesting character and
better match for Peter...and it shows when decent writers handle the
characters.
Anim8rFSK
Billy Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
What he said.
True Believer Reviews
> Lilith <lilith...@gmail.com> wrote innews:4vsjs5dt3u9otj9lj...@4ax.com:
Or editors who just need to say "hey guys...let's keep this girl
consistent." That's why there's editors after all. MJ as a
character goes back and forth between written really poorly and
written well, it does depend on whose run it is, which is
unfortunate. I really like how she's done in Ultimate Spidey as a
kid. Translate that to adult and build her experiences based on
acting and modeling and I think it'd be pretty simple.
Raymond Speer
It is a shame that Spider Man is in such a rut, and one of the circles
the character repeats is that it is impossible for him to find a new
female. Gwen, MJ, MJ, Black Cat, Gwen, MJ, MJ, MJ, Gwen, Betty Brant,
and so to Infinity and beyond.
It would be realistic for Parker in his 30s/40s to have a contemporary
female with him. And a guy in his 30s/40s will have lost touch with the
babes he dated in his teens/20s. (But then he has been ejected by the
Devil to live a solitary life in his aunt's basement, so he is hardly
ordinary.)
grinningdemon
wrote:
>
>It is a shame that Spider Man is in such a rut, and one of the circles
>the character repeats is that it is impossible for him to find a new
>female. Gwen, MJ, MJ, Black Cat, Gwen, MJ, MJ, MJ, Gwen, Betty Brant,
>and so to Infinity and beyond.
They have actually introduced several new potential love interests
since BND started, and, despite my belief that the bullshit retcon has
ruined the main characters, I actually do like some of the new ones
they've introduced...just not so much as love interests for Peter.
>It would be realistic for Parker in his 30s/40s to have a contemporary
>female with him. And a guy in his 30s/40s will have lost touch with the
>babes he dated in his teens/20s.
That might be realistic (in some cases)...but not particularly
satisfying to long time fans of the characters...and I highly doubt
Marvel will ever admit he's out of his 20s.
(But then he has been ejected by the
>Devil to live a solitary life in his aunt's basement, so he is hardly
>ordinary.)
Marvel has this ridiculous notion that, for him to be the everyman,
Peter must always be a pathetic loser...OMD just gives them an excuse
to make him even more so (although the changes make the preceding
story make less and less sense as time goes on...not that it ever made
sense from Peter and MJ's perspective...but now it doesn't even make
sense from Mephisto's).
Rob Dye
...but now it doesn't even make
> sense from Mephisto's).
Heh.
Wouldn't *that* make for a funny couple of issues, as Mephisto starts
losing sleep over the idiotic turn his favorite soap opera has taken,
and his attempts to "put it right?"
Rob Dye
>
> ...and I highly doubt
> Marvel will ever admit he's out of his 20s.
>
Which is just fine, in my opinion. Pete doesn't need to get old, any
more than other characters do. Other than an occasional time-travel
or future story, he can be left in his mid-to-late-twenties, and he is
believable; a guy who married fairly young, dropped out of college,
and freelances or teaches to get by, with occasional windfalls of one
sort or another due to his actions as a hero.
Life should never get *too* easy for Pete; angst is part and parcel of
the character. I'll grant that having a hot starlet wife was not quite
fitting for who the character should be, but that doe not mean he
could not have a wife at all. A medium successful, beautiful actress
who has to struggle some to make it on Broadway is quite believable;
there are more than plenty of those for it to be believable.
Mary Jane as Movie Star *did* need to be gotten rid of or modified in
some way, but I don't think they needed to undo the marriage to deal
with it. They took the easy way out, and tossed out everything,
instead of saying, "okay, here are our principal characters; how do we
make them interesting/put them in interesting plots and situations?"
Rob
grinningdemon
<fr.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Apr 27, 8:51�pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> ...and I highly doubt
>> Marvel will ever admit he's out of his 20s.
>>
>
>Which is just fine, in my opinion. Pete doesn't need to get old, any
>more than other characters do. Other than an occasional time-travel
>or future story, he can be left in his mid-to-late-twenties, and he is
>believable; a guy who married fairly young, dropped out of college,
>and freelances or teaches to get by, with occasional windfalls of one
>sort or another due to his actions as a hero.
I don't like watching the characters grow old either...but I do want
to see them grow and progress up to a point...I don't want to see them
remain static forever...or rewound several decades...this is bullshit.
>Life should never get *too* easy for Pete; angst is part and parcel of
>the character. I'll grant that having a hot starlet wife was not quite
>fitting for who the character should be, but that doe not mean he
>could not have a wife at all. A medium successful, beautiful actress
>who has to struggle some to make it on Broadway is quite believable;
>there are more than plenty of those for it to be believable.
I'll agree with you there...I actually think the marriage could have
worked fine and I love the characters together when written well but
they definitely overdid it when it came to making MJ so
successful...that said, I always liked the idea that everything else
could be going wrong for Peter but he still had this one great thing
going for him...it kept him from being a total loser...which is,
unfortunately, what Marvel wants.
>Mary Jane as Movie Star *did* need to be gotten rid of or modified in
>some way, but I don't think they needed to undo the marriage to deal
>with it. They took the easy way out, and tossed out everything,
>instead of saying, "okay, here are our principal characters; how do we
>make them interesting/put them in interesting plots and situations?"
I just think they needed to be better written...and, when it comes to
characterization, JMS had done a great job with these two in the first
half of his run...he even managed to believably downgrade her celeb
status...I would have loved to see them continue to be written that
way but then Quesada started interfering and everything went to
hell...and now it's just garbage...modern retreads of stories from 30
years ago...it's totally ruined the characters for me.