What's the Verdict on Amazing Spider-Man
Kenneth M. Lin
single artist doing more than one arc and I am not even sure anyone is going
to. They keep announcing more and more artists but I was under the
impression that Jimenez and McNiven were the "regulars." I don't know what
Phil's up to but I think McNiven is doing Wolverine with Millar so I don't
expect him to come back to Spider-Man anytime soon. I was also very
surprised that second arc was by Salvadore LaRocca because he was never
announced. Considering that they had three extra months to get ahead
because of Joe Q.'s slowness, I expected more consistency in the handling of
the artwork.
As far as Chris Bachalo drawing Spider-Man? Yes, one of his clones did a
long stinct not too long ago and his name is Mark Buckingham so it didn't
feel like Marvel did something new. The only "continuity consistency" being
mayoral election, JJJ losing controlf of D.B. (no longer Daily Bugle), and
Peter looking for apartment.
In any case, I like the book enough that I am sticking around. I just think
that it could be a lot better.
Kiiro
Kiiro
argento32
> Didn't Mephisto kill Spider-Man? Or was that Joe Q.?
>
> Kiiro
The book, imo, has gotten much better. I was hoping they'd decide on a
steady writer/artist team but I think thats going to be forthcoming.
As bad a reception as OMD got and BND initially the stories and art
have been a lot better than most expected. I agree that they can do
much better but the book is growing leaps and bounds from what was
happening just before the retcon.
Most of the people I know that were angry about what happened are now
back to reading it. BTW I'd be interested to know which continuing
story do you like most at the present time?
Kevin
LAMELY change all this Spidey-stuff?" Honestly, he could have the same
adventures married to MJ. I like the action, tho I'm not really into Pete's
personal life with Harry and his clique. Just...ugh...
Kev :)
"argento32" <aaron...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8a4d0452-d6f3-49a4...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Thunder Magnificent!
> Most of the people I know that were angry about what happened are now
> back to reading it.
I gave it up entirely... although I had planned to once JMS quit anyway
(OMD just made it easier).
t.k.
Lilith
<aaron...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Apr 19, 12:24 am, Kiiro <a...@anon.anon> wrote:
>> Didn't Mephisto kill Spider-Man? Or was that Joe Q.?
>>
>> Kiiro
>
>The book, imo, has gotten much better. I was hoping they'd decide on a
>steady writer/artist team but I think thats going to be forthcoming.
>As bad a reception as OMD got and BND initially the stories and art
>have been a lot better than most expected. I agree that they can do
>much better but the book is growing leaps and bounds from what was
>happening just before the retcon.
Do you really think that they can find an writer and artist team that
can keep up with three issues per month on a consistent basis? The
change-out on the teams seems to involve writers and artists who can
construct the stories in overlapping timeframes.
--
Lilith
argento32
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:09:58 -0700 (PDT), argento32
>
Will they continue with the 3 issues a month if they find a steady
team or is this continuing circular creative teams the new vision for
Spider-Man? I kinda hope they keep with the changing creative teams
for now as long as they have a steady focused editing group to decide
where the characters are going. That way you can get other creative
teams but they will know where the storyline is going and can
contribute there visions toward a single focus.
Lilith
That's exactly what I'm saying. Writing one title three times a month
is enough to burn out even those who could write and draw three titles
once a month. It's unlikely that a permanent team would be found that
could bear these conditions for long. But there has to be someone
providing an underlying thread.
--
Lilith
Kenneth M. Lin
"Lilith" <lil...@dcccd.edu> wrote in message
news:1ekk04tuaf8i2omv4...@4ax.com...
essence draw one book a month? So far we haven't seen a single artist
coming back for second arc and many are moving on to other gigs (McNiven on
Wolverine and Larroca on Iron Man). The way they are doing with fill-in
artist on every arc I am surprised that they didn't make the book weekly
(thanks God for that).
argento32
wrote:
> "Lilith" <lil...@dcccd.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:1ekk04tuaf8i2omv4...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:24:47 -0700 (PDT), argento32
Any chance they are cycling certain creative teams?
grinningdemon
>On Apr 19, 12:24 am, Kiiro <a...@anon.anon> wrote:
>> Didn't Mephisto kill Spider-Man? Or was that Joe Q.?
>>
>> Kiiro
>
>The book, imo, has gotten much better. I was hoping they'd decide on a
>steady writer/artist team but I think thats going to be forthcoming.
>As bad a reception as OMD got and BND initially the stories and art
>have been a lot better than most expected. I agree that they can do
>much better but the book is growing leaps and bounds from what was
>happening just before the retcon.
You're half-right...the art has certainly improved...the stories have
mostly been boring (although I did kind of like the latest one) and,
while his secret ID certainly had to be restored, none of the rest of
the retcon garbage was even remotely necessary...or even
interesting...all it did was make a mess of the characters' history
and they haven't even used the status quo to do anything new or
original...I've heard people say they like some of the new villains
and basic plots (the super-hero part of the story) but none of this
has been dependent on the retconned set-up and most people I've talked
to (even those that generally like the book) don't have anything
positive to say about the Peter Parker side of the story...it's
lame...and that just gets me even more pissed off about the whole
thing.
>
>Most of the people I know that were angry about what happened are now
>back to reading it. BTW I'd be interested to know which continuing
>story do you like most at the present time?
I know a lot of people who are off the book for good (I know my comic
shop has reduced it's orders because they aren't selling)...and also
some new readers (though most have been attracted by the hype
surrounding Brand New Day rather than it's quality)...ultimately, I
doubt it's going to make much a difference in sales at all beyond the
initial bump from all the hype...readers lost will be replaced by new
ones so the whole thing was basically a wash.
Nathan P. Mahney
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ijeo049jc04siestj...@4ax.com...
If sales stay roughly the same as they were on Amazing, or even if they dip
slightly, Marvel are still coming out ahead. Instead of Amazing selling
well, with two spin-off titles doing mediocre numbers, they'll have three
books a month doing numbers in the vicinity of Amazing.
Also, Brand New Day is awesome. I haven't enjoyed the title this much in
ages.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
http://www.thecomicnerd.com
argento32
> "grinningdemon" <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
I keep hearing online about people dropping the title but its selling
more in the two shops that carry the title here. Since we are long
past the initial story the sales bump for hype thing has to be let to
rest. Its a crutch that fans who didnt like the retcon used to explain
the fact that people are still buying.
I completely agree that Brand New Day has been awesome between Brand
New Day, Secret Invasion, and Thor I am back reading Marvel again.
Jason Todd
wrote:
> This title just screams "perpetual fill-in" because I have yet to see a
> single artist doing more than one arc and I am not even sure anyone is going
> to. They keep announcing more and more artists but I was under the
> impression that Jimenez and McNiven were the "regulars." I don't know what
> Phil's up to but I think McNiven is doing Wolverine with Millar so I don't
> expect him to come back to Spider-Man anytime soon. I was also very
> surprised that second arc was by Salvadore LaRocca because he was never
> announced. Considering that they had three extra months to get ahead
> because of Joe Q.'s slowness, I expected more consistency in the handling of
> the artwork.
BWHAHAHAHAHA!!
It's been awhile since anyone who falls into the category of
"superstar artist" could stay on a book past six issues. Look at Moon
Knight. Look at Batman. Whenever starting a new book, or when a new
writer comes on board on a current book they bring in a "name" to
create excitement. And then that guy leaves within the year and six
months later the book gets cancelled. I love Ed McGuiness on Hulk, but
at the same time, it sucks knowing he'll be gone by the end of
summer.
>
> In any case, I like the book enough that I am sticking around. I just think
> that it could be a lot better.
I'm pretty much done with Spider-Man. Not only am I royally pissed off
over the shoddy way the whole thing was carried out, but Brand New Day
actually looks like Same Old Shit. Its a throwback to the late 80s
Spider Man of Web and Spectacular, books that went nowhere fast. At
least they're content to keep concentrate the suckness all in one
title at this point in time.
Jason Todd
Kiiro
<snip, snip>
> Most of the people I know that were angry about what happened are now
> back to reading it. BTW I'd be interested to know which continuing
> story do you like most at the present time?
Spider-Man was my first and favorite hero. As a long time fan, I am
offended at this nonsense. I boycotted the book when they tried the
clone replacement and I am boycotting it now. Marvel likes to step on
the Spider-Man fans for some reason and we tend to fight back. I
remember the Spider-Man Expatriates well.
As for the continuing story line; I have to say Green Lantern and
Captain America.
Kiiro
argento32
Actually it really hasn't been that long. I'd look towards Bagley to
disprove the artists dont stay on book statements...
I am enjoying brand new day as are most people i speak with. Its only
on here i see such a negative reaction.
Do people really boycout comics..seriously?..lol
Tony
>
> - Show quoted text -
--yes.
Some of us do.
I'm vehemently opposed to One More Day, and I refuse to buy any Spider-
Man title. If that means never buying Spidey again, then so be it.
I've read copies that friends have, but Marvel won't get my money for
the thrice monthly title, nor in collected form. I realize that my
money doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme--especially since
Amazing is selling quite well (much to my chagrin)--but it's the
principle of the matter.
I will say that from what I've read (and seen), the book is very nice,
and I'd love to be able to read it. But I won't.
Tony (what kills me too, is that nothing--THUS FAR--has necessitated
Peter being unmarried. These stories thus far could have occured just
as easily with a married Peter Parker as they could a single PP)
Kenneth M. Lin
"Jason Todd" <janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cc9c30b-5323-4cd7...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I'm pretty much done with Spider-Man. Not only am I royally pissed off
over the shoddy way the whole thing was carried out, but Brand New Day
actually looks like Same Old Shit. Its a throwback to the late 80s
Spider Man of Web and Spectacular, books that went nowhere fast. At
least they're content to keep concentrate the suckness all in one
title at this point in time.
I'd say that Spider-Man is one of the rare book where I like the character
more than who's working on the book. That perpetual guilt trip thing really
resonates with me.
I am still reading but not sure if even till the end of the year unless the
pacing picks up. They are essentially spending three issues to tell a story
that's used to be told in one. I wonder when Bendis is done with all his
other obligations he could jump in as the solo writer.
The fourth story arc (the one in the snow) is already out of sync with the
rest of the Marvel Universe (New Avengers still hanging out at Dr. Strange's
place and so on) so it must mean that they have stockpiled a fair amount of
plots at the least.
Nathan P. Mahney
"Kenneth M. Lin" <kennet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:_kNPj.2786$I55...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Jason Todd" <janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3cc9c30b-5323-4cd7...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> I'm pretty much done with Spider-Man. Not only am I royally pissed off
> over the shoddy way the whole thing was carried out, but Brand New Day
> actually looks like Same Old Shit. Its a throwback to the late 80s
> Spider Man of Web and Spectacular, books that went nowhere fast. At
> least they're content to keep concentrate the suckness all in one
> title at this point in time.
>
> I'd say that Spider-Man is one of the rare book where I like the character
> more than who's working on the book. That perpetual guilt trip thing
really
> resonates with me.
>
> I am still reading but not sure if even till the end of the year unless
the
> pacing picks up. They are essentially spending three issues to tell a
story
> that's used to be told in one. I wonder when Bendis is done with all his
> other obligations he could jump in as the solo writer.
That's twice as fast as Straczynski.
argento32
> "Kenneth M. Lin" <kenneth_m_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messagenews:_kNPj.2786$I55...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jason Todd" <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:3cc9c30b-5323-4cd7...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm pretty much done with Spider-Man. Not only am I royally pissed off
> > over the shoddy way the whole thing was carried out, but Brand New Day
> > actually looks like Same Old Shit. Its a throwback to the late 80s
> > Spider Man of Web and Spectacular, books that went nowhere fast. At
> > least they're content to keep concentrate the suckness all in one
> > title at this point in time.
>
> > I'd say that Spider-Man is one of the rare book where I like the character
> > more than who's working on the book. That perpetual guilt trip thing
> really
> > resonates with me.
>
> > I am still reading but not sure if even till the end of the year unless
> the
> > pacing picks up. They are essentially spending three issues to tell a
> story
> > that's used to be told in one. I wonder when Bendis is done with all his
> > other obligations he could jump in as the solo writer.
>
> That's twice as fast as Straczynski.
>
> - Nathan P. Mahney -http://www.thecomicnerd.com
I've just finished Spidey 557 and I have never felt better about the
direction the comic is taking. Its starting its second cycle of writer/
artist stories and the most promising of the introduced villans Freak
and with Barry Kitson art to boot. Also coming up the return of Norman
Osbourne and a john romita jr story arc.. The three issue arcs move
the stories and pace much faster and they are more entertaining.I am
tired of every story running six issues just so it'll make a nice
graphic novel..
FSogol
But you like EVERYTHING.
>Its starting its second cycle of writer/
> artist stories and the most promising of the introduced villans Freak
> and with Barry Kitson art to boot. Also coming up the return of Norman
> Osbourne and a john romita jr story arc.. The three issue arcs move
> the stories and pace much faster and they are more entertaining.I am
> tired of every story running six issues just so it'll make a nice
> graphic novel..
They are redoing all the old Harry stuff, again. Bringing back Norman,
again is boring. Parker doesn't fit in with that group of friends, why
would he hang around with them? He used to be a scientist, teacher,
press photographer, etc. Now he's a neebish in his Aunt's basement.
The one interesting item is JJJ losing control of the Bugle. Seeing
what he does will keep me tuned in.
--
FSogol
argento32
No I don't like everything but I won't say I am not a happier reader
now then I was when Sins Past came out.
The whole thing about Peter was that his character was so accessible.
He had girl problems, worked the crappy jobs, it seemed more realistic
to me then. I found it hard to feel sorry for the guy with the hot
supermodel wife, who was working for Tony Stark, and gained mystical
powers that made little sense. But thats the past.
What I don't like about the retcon. Peter is a little too much of the
underdog. Lets see some small victories for Parker. I think when they
chose to bring back Harry Gwen shoulda shown up too..that was a
completely cop out move not going all the way with doing that.
That being said yes, I am enjoying Spidey now more than I have in a
few years. That coupled with my fave bad guy aliens the skrulls
getting the spotlight. A new well written Thor comic and Avengers
having two books I enjoy. Yes A C is a very happy comic fan right
now...
grinningdemon
You're kidding, right? Sales bumps for over-hyped
storylines/directions like this can go on for a year or more...and, as
much as I'd like the book to tank, I never thought people would stop
buying...people are sheep...I just don't think it's going to see
lasting sales figures much beyond what it was already
doing...unfortunately, that still makes it commercially successful as
Amazing always outsold the other Spidey books that have been replaced
by the two additional issues each month.
>
>I completely agree that Brand New Day has been awesome between Brand
>New Day, Secret Invasion, and Thor I am back reading Marvel again.
To each his own...I think Brand New Day has nice art and that's about
it...even if I did like what they were doing, the parts I've heard
people say they like are completely independent of the retcon...they
could have easily done Brand New Day with a married Spiderman and a
history/timeline that actually made sense and much of the stories
wouldn't have even changed significantly...and it could only be an
improvement.
Thor has been great (though a little slow-paced) but Secret Invasion
is crap...if the Skrulls could do all the things Bendis has them doing
then there would be no need for a "secret" invasion as they could
easily trounce the whole Marvel Universe and call it a day.
grinningdemon
So instead we get every story at three issues so two of them will make
a nice graphic novel...or, possibly, each three issue story will get
it's own graphic novel with a jacked-up price to be followed at some
undisclosed time (so fans won't know it's coming and hold off buying
the paperback) by a hardcover collection of several story arcs in one
and a ridiculous price-tag.
grinningdemon
If all you're comparing it to is Sins Past then, hell yeah, it's
awesome...that said, I'll take a "Gwen is a slut" retcon over a
"Spiderman's history is royally fucked" retcon anyday.
>
>The whole thing about Peter was that his character was so accessible.
>He had girl problems, worked the crappy jobs, it seemed more realistic
>to me then. I found it hard to feel sorry for the guy with the hot
>supermodel wife, who was working for Tony Stark, and gained mystical
>powers that made little sense. But thats the past.
Yes, he had a supermodel wife...big freaking deal...I don't get why
everyone seems to think that every aspect of Spiderman's life has to
be total crap all the time...if I were him, I'd have blown my brains
out by now because he NEVER CATCHES A BREAK...and the one break he did
catch has now been retconned away...I always saw MJ as giving him hope
and reason to keep going...this was beautifully illustrated in the
Matt Fraction's Sensational Spiderman Annual last year which was the
best Spidey story in years and has now been deservedly nominated for
an Eisner (don't hold your breath waiting for a nomination for Brand
New Day).
As to him working for Tony Stark and "gaining mystical powers" (which
isn't at all what happened and proves you have absolutely no
understanding of those stories), it was transitory...and we all knew
that...we knew those things weren't going to last or even have much
impact on Spidey's future at all...this retcon, on the other hand, has
screwed Spidey up backwards and forwards...his past is now his present
(what little past is left).
>
>What I don't like about the retcon. Peter is a little too much of the
>underdog. Lets see some small victories for Parker. I think when they
>chose to bring back Harry Gwen shoulda shown up too..that was a
>completely cop out move not going all the way with doing that.
How the hell would Gwen's return make any sense as part of the story?
You can at least fudge the details and come up with an explanation for
Harry's return (as his death happened after Peter and MJ were
married)...but Gwen? Then Spidey really would have no past at
all...but that would complete the transition back to 1968...and
Brevort's little manifesto in the back of the Swing Time Director's
Cut shows even Marvel editorial thought that was a bad idea.
>
>That being said yes, I am enjoying Spidey now more than I have in a
>few years. That coupled with my fave bad guy aliens the skrulls
>getting the spotlight. A new well written Thor comic and Avengers
>having two books I enjoy. Yes A C is a very happy comic fan right
>now...
Ugh!
argento32
It was okay to mess with Spider-Mans powers because it was transitory.
Thats utter bull. It's the stories like The Other and Sins Past that
caused them to do such a drastic retcon in the first place. Just
because you can do something doesn't make it a great idea. Spider-
man's titles were going crappy and they did a controversial drastic
move. Some people are incensed and don't like it. boo-freakin-hoo. A
lot of us do and more fans and new fans are being made everyday.
Secret Invasion has been interesting as well. I am more than a little
tired of people saying "well if they can do this why..." I for one
find this a more intelligent and interesting attack by the Skrulls
then any simple straight. It reflects society and its paranoia the
same way the red scare stories made sense for an earlier generation.
And yes I do prefer a 3 issue story to a six issue one. If your going
to take 6 issues to tell a story it better be huge cause thats a lot
of issues to take up.
If the retcon was going to make a dramatic impact Gwen walking in the
door with Harry was the type of explosive start I think would have
worked and then the Sins Past storyline would have been nullified.
As a fan of Spider-man for years I am really enjoying the comic and
the people that abandoned it. (the online critics) Don't change
that... Now with that said Barry Kitson does the next arc with a
returning Freak. Should be fun..
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
It would be the perfect reason for why Peter and MJ never married.
> You can at least fudge the details and come up with an explanation for
> Harry's return (as his death happened after Peter and MJ were
> married)...but Gwen? Then Spidey really would have no past at
> all...but that would complete the transition back to 1968...and
Before Conway ruined the book.
> Brevort's little manifesto in the back of the Swing Time Director's
> Cut shows even Marvel editorial thought that was a bad idea.
>
> >
> >That being said yes, I am enjoying Spidey now more than I have in a
> >few years. That coupled with my fave bad guy aliens the skrulls
> >getting the spotlight. A new well written Thor comic and Avengers
> >having two books I enjoy. Yes A C is a very happy comic fan right
> >now...
>
> Ugh!
--
Star Trek 09:
No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg
sgtbilko
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:orv514pvjhphrseir...@4ax.com...
Don't read it anymore....don't plan to read it anymore.... Joe Q......go
frack yourself
grinningdemon
Hardly...JMS's original Spider-totem stories didn't changed
Spiderman's powers...it only placed a possible new slant on his
origin...and JMS left an out in those stories as Spiderman never even
fully believed all the mystical aspects...it could have been easily
revealed as false (though I honestly didn't see the harm myself as it
didn't take away anything from the original origin...The Other and the
ID reveal are stories that were conceived only after they already knew
they were going to play the retcon card...it's not something they were
stuck with and wanted to get rid of...and Sins Past wasn't even
affected by the retcon so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning it
here...face it, there are two main reasons Marvel did the
retcon...they wanted to undo the marriage and they wanted to make
Spidey seem younger...the horrible stories you seem to think HAD TO BE
retconned away were merely filler while they planned the retcon.
>
>Secret Invasion has been interesting as well. I am more than a little
>tired of people saying "well if they can do this why..." I for one
>find this a more intelligent and interesting attack by the Skrulls
>then any simple straight. It reflects society and its paranoia the
>same way the red scare stories made sense for an earlier generation.
You're right about the paranoia-aspect...but, as they attempted to
mirror real-life attitudes and events in Civil War, the details just
don't make sense...to make Civil War work, they had to mischaracterize
nearly the whole Marvel Universe...to make Secret Invasion work, they
have to make the Skrulls so overwhelmingly powerful that the whole
point of a secret infilitration is moot...and they have to completely
ignore the fact that Skrull doppelgangers (even long-term
replacements) have been encountered in the past without causing
anywhere near this level of paranoia...it might have made sense back
in the day but that day is not this day...maybe over in Brand New Day
where nothing makes sense anyway.
>
>And yes I do prefer a 3 issue story to a six issue one. If your going
>to take 6 issues to tell a story it better be huge cause thats a lot
>of issues to take up.
I'd argue that setting a limit on how long a story arc can be (no
matter how long or short it may be) is an inherently bad idea that
will innevitably have a negative impact on the stories.
>
>If the retcon was going to make a dramatic impact Gwen walking in the
>door with Harry was the type of explosive start I think would have
>worked and then the Sins Past storyline would have been nullified.
How so? Gwen's being alive doesn't necessarily nullify Sins Past at
all...Norman was alive and he didn't appear in the story (at least in
the present)...and again I ask you how you could possibly say that
Peter and MJ not staying together would somehow have saved Gwen when
they never even got together until long after she was gone? You don't
seem to want to answer that one, huh?
>
>As a fan of Spider-man for years I am really enjoying the comic and
>the people that abandoned it. (the online critics) Don't change
>that... Now with that said Barry Kitson does the next arc with a
>returning Freak. Should be fun..
I too am a long-time fan of Spiderman and new and/or returning
likewise do not change my profound disappointment in what has been
done to this character...and don't think for a moment that the "online
critics" are the only people who feel that way. Sadly, it doesn't
matter...you win...the book is doomed to the same old mediocre crap
for the forseeable future...it's just prettier (although Kitson
doesn't strike me as a good fit for Spiderman).
grinningdemon
wrote:
Only if he married her instead...which would be just as much a problem
in Quesada's eyes...probably more so as she was far less interesting
than MJ.
>
>> You can at least fudge the details and come up with an explanation for
>> Harry's return (as his death happened after Peter and MJ were
>> married)...but Gwen? Then Spidey really would have no past at
>> all...but that would complete the transition back to 1968...and
>
>Before Conway ruined the book.
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
He hardly has to marry Gwen to not marry Mj.
which would be just as much a problem
> in Quesada's eyes...probably more so as she was far less interesting
> than MJ.
Only because Conway was (and is) an incompetent writer.
>
> >
> >> You can at least fudge the details and come up with an explanation for
> >> Harry's return (as his death happened after Peter and MJ were
> >> married)...but Gwen? Then Spidey really would have no past at
> >> all...but that would complete the transition back to 1968...and
> >
> >Before Conway ruined the book.
>
> Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Sorry if the truth annoys you.
>
> >
> >> Brevort's little manifesto in the back of the Swing Time Director's
> >> Cut shows even Marvel editorial thought that was a bad idea.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >That being said yes, I am enjoying Spidey now more than I have in a
> >> >few years. That coupled with my fave bad guy aliens the skrulls
> >> >getting the spotlight. A new well written Thor comic and Avengers
> >> >having two books I enjoy. Yes A C is a very happy comic fan right
> >> >now...
> >>
> >> Ugh!
--
argento32
> In article <h6db1412v7abgs0gbc6stmtcpgda6k7...@4ax.com>,
>
>
>
> grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:02:01 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >In article <16061414j710kl0qd6irordm5qj7ark...@4ax.com>,
I never said that MJ and Peter not staying together would bring back
Gwen > I never ducked that JUST ASKED question either, that statement
was just inane. I said that it would have put a whole new dynamic if
Gwen and Harry would have walked in that door together.
Knowing a book is getting retconned is no reason to do stupid or
mediocre writing that messes with the character. It was idiotic, it
was lazy, and yes it changed Spider-Man. Big pointy things blasting
out of Spidey's arms is quite a drastic change. Cocooning Spidey is
quite a drastic change. Make all the excuses about "outs" and there
was a retcon coming up it doesn't change a thing. The character JMS
was writing was definitely not my spider-man. If the ;possible
mystical, organic web-shooter, character you read was Spider-man to
you. You gave up on the character long ago because thats not the
version of spider-man i grew up with.
Right now in the comics all that crap is gone. He's working at the
bugle, he has web shooters, and his villans are getting interesting
again with some good characters introduced.
I'd like to see MJ in the comics but I don't miss the marriage.
grinningdemon
wrote:
After all this time, what believable reason would he have not to have
married Gwen if she were still around? We already saw it in House of
M...there was nowhere else left for them to go as a couple...unless
you want to keep Sins Past intact as a reason they didn't stay
together...in which case, there's no reason why she would keep Peter
and MJ apart.
>
>which would be just as much a problem
>> in Quesada's eyes...probably more so as she was far less interesting
>> than MJ.
>
>Only because Conway was (and is) an incompetent writer.
Then I suppose Stan Lee was too because he never thought she was as
interesting either...and, if the two writers who handled virtually all
of her appearances both thought she was boring and played out, there
may be something to that.
>>
>> >
>> >> You can at least fudge the details and come up with an explanation for
>> >> Harry's return (as his death happened after Peter and MJ were
>> >> married)...but Gwen? Then Spidey really would have no past at
>> >> all...but that would complete the transition back to 1968...and
>> >
>> >Before Conway ruined the book.
>>
>> Whatever you need to tell yourself.
>
>Sorry if the truth annoys you.
I could say the same to you.
Anim8rFSK
<4dc3648f-4f33-4247...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
argento32 <aaron...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 11:22 am, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
> > In article <h6db1412v7abgs0gbc6stmtcpgda6k7...@4ax.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:02:01 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > >In article <16061414j710kl0qd6irordm5qj7ark...@4ax.com>,
> > > > grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT), argento32
> > > >> <aaronpyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >> >On Apr 24, 2:06 pm, FSogol <FSo...@nospamplease.org> wrote:
> > > >> >> argento32 wrote:
> > > >> >> > On Apr 24, 11:54 am, "Nathan P. Mahney" <npmah...@yahoo.com.au>
> > > >> >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> "Kenneth M. Lin" <kenneth m ...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> > > >> >> >> messagenews: kNPj.2786$I55...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
Absolutely.
>
> Knowing a book is getting retconned is no reason to do stupid or
> mediocre writing that messes with the character. It was idiotic, it
> was lazy, and yes it changed Spider-Man. Big pointy things blasting
> out of Spidey's arms is quite a drastic change. Cocooning Spidey is
> quite a drastic change. Make all the excuses about "outs" and there
> was a retcon coming up it doesn't change a thing. The character JMS
> was writing was definitely not my spider-man. If the ;possible
> mystical, organic web-shooter, character you read was Spider-man to
> you. You gave up on the character long ago because thats not the
> version of spider-man i grew up with.
> Right now in the comics all that crap is gone. He's working at the
> bugle, he has web shooters, and his villans are getting interesting
> again with some good characters introduced.
> I'd like to see MJ in the comics but I don't miss the marriage.
i miss Gwen. And I hate the idea that the Stacey twins are out there
somewhere still.
Bruce Grubb
This comment reminds me of A&E's biography of Stan Lee where one person
comments about how all his characters seem to be messes using Spiderman as
an example. 'Spiperman moaning and groaning 'Oh my Aunt May has alzheimer
and I don't have a proper bowel movement. Just once I would like to see
them happy.'
While a little flippant this is basically right--if any person had even
help the problem most of Stan Lee's creations have had they would either
have killed themselves or wound up bouncing around a rubber room.
grinningdemon
Actually, it would have been the exact same dynamic we had 40 years
ago...even Tom Brevort thought so...there's nothing new about it.
>
>Knowing a book is getting retconned is no reason to do stupid or
>mediocre writing that messes with the character. It was idiotic, it
>was lazy, and yes it changed Spider-Man. Big pointy things blasting
>out of Spidey's arms is quite a drastic change. Cocooning Spidey is
>quite a drastic change. Make all the excuses about "outs" and there
>was a retcon coming up it doesn't change a thing.
It was stupid...but they only did it because they were going to retcon
it out...therefore, no retcon = no "big pointy things blasting out of
Spidey's arms" (among other things)...it's circular logic...if they
hadn't already conceived the retcon then the stories that needed to be
undone never would have been published...One More Day caused pretty
much all the problems you think it fixed.
The character JMS
>was writing was definitely not my spider-man. If the ;possible
>mystical, organic web-shooter, character you read was Spider-man to
>you.
You really seem to have a hard time grasping this concept...The Other
is where they changed Spidey's powers...The Other was written knowing
full well it would be retconned out...JMS's original Spider-totem run
didn't alter his powers in anyway at all...it only placed a new slant
on his origin (without undoing anything at all) and left an easy out
to drop all that if so desired...it required no retcon...furthermore,
JMS's characterization in his early run is better by far than any
other regular Spider writer in years...and a 100 times better than
this bastardized version appearing in Brand New Day.
You gave up on the character long ago because thats not the
>version of spider-man i grew up with.
Has it ever occured to you that maybe the character grew up too? I
think that's a good thing...and perfectly in line with the Spiderman I
grew up with...making deals with the devil and being a pathetic
moocher living off his aunt (who should be long dead) is not.
>Right now in the comics all that crap is gone.
Along with all character development and progression...that's not much
of a trade to me.
He's working at the
>bugle, he has web shooters, and his villans are getting interesting
>again with some good characters introduced.
>I'd like to see MJ in the comics but I don't miss the marriage.
Yes, we all know you want them to retread the same crap from the 60s
and 70s...congradulations, you get your wish...and most of the new
characters you mention are just thinly-veiled retakes on old
characters...I don't find that particularly interesting.
argento32
wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:46:02 -0700 (PDT), argento32
>
You seem to be unable to add the phrase "in your opinion" to any of
your statements. You write it down likes its some almighty fact. Its
an opinion same as mine, no better no less. You mightn't find it
particularly interesting but thats you, I am enjoying it and with
every issue enjoying it more.
JMS never really impressed me with his take on Spidey. He started ok
but he really seemed unsure of where he was taking it.
Your excuse for every bad story done is the retcon. "if there was no
retcon there'd be no Others", "if there was no retcon..." Bull, it was
sloppy horrid writing that bastardized the character and made him
completely unlike who he was. Peter can grow without those horrible
horrible stories. And just because everything is being retconned is no
excuse for a writer to get sloppy and lazy.
I'm not the only person enjoying Spidey right now either. I don`t feel
its a retread at all. I think its finally starting to get back on
track. We have a fresh start to clear up the mess that Spider-man
became. Peter as a teacher could have been interesting..sadly it
didn`t work as expected. Peter and MJ`s marriage was a nice bit of
stability but I can definitely see how shaking things up can help both
of these characters who had grown stale together.
I`d probably miss the character devlopment too if it hadn`t been so
sadly done in the last little while.
No matter what the fanboys say there was more to the retcon than Joe Q
wanting Pete and MJ broken up. The writing and character had gotten
very wrong and drastic steps were taken to fix it.
Do I agree with all of it. Not really. OMD was horrible and that was
written by your fave Spidey writer JM(pass the buck when the going
gets tough)S. However the stories in BND since he left the book have
gotten continuously better.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> No matter what the fanboys say there was more to the retcon than Joe Q
> wanting Pete and MJ broken up. The writing and character had gotten
> very wrong and drastic steps were taken to fix it.
You do know *nothing* that happened since Joey Q was in charge been
retconned out, right?
Sins Past?
"And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was
something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run. I wasn't
allowed to do this"
-JMS, Newsarama
The Other?
"While we won't be making any direct references to "The Other," it's
still a part of Spidey history, and it remains to be seen how Pete lost
those powers."
-JQ himself, Marvel website
All the things you say were why the retcon was needed *haven't* *been*
*affected* *by* *it*!
--
Dave
"I thought Billie Piper was an oil rig."
-Sandi Toksvig, The News Quiz
argento32
wrote:
Well if any of those things rear there ugly head back in the issues of
AMS then you'll definitely have me here complaining. As AMS goes right
now though I am enjoying it. Apparently they need to retcon the retcon
and get Sins Past and The Other out of canon and into the horrible
story trash heap it belongs into.
I do prefer a single Peter though I am not sure why he couldn't have
divorced MJ but I am guessing so many things were wrong by that point
they needed to do something drastic.
Tony
>
> - Show quoted text -
--I'm still waiting to see all these stories that can be told with a
single Peter that can't be done with him married...cuz thus far,
nothing in ASM would be substantially changed with Peter and MJ still
married.
Tony
~consul
Actually, with the portrayal of the Skrulls actually being that powerful, it's less realistic w/ what reflects society and it's paranoia. Backintheday, they were shapeshifters and could be hiding everywhere, you couldn't tell who was actually one or not. Like those Commies.
Nowadays, we have our suspected terrorists and illegal aliens, who could be hiding everywhere, but w/o a strong sense of how physically dangerous they as a group can be, just a vague sense of how dangerous the dangerous ones are.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, consul -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
argento32
I see your point but the skrulls of the past defined the whole cold
war paranoia. What you get now is more than just a fear of terror its
a fear of the person next to you. As for the power I'd say what most
people fear the most in North America right now isn't the terrorists
it's the government. Not to get political but Cheney scares me a
helluva a lot more than some unknown terrorist.
~consul
> On Apr 30, 6:11 pm, ~consul <con...@dolphins-coveINVALID.com> wrote:
>> and thus argento32 inscribed ...
>>> On Apr 26, 8:31 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Secret Invasion has been interesting as well. I am more than a little
>>> tired of people saying "well if they can do this why..." I for one
>>> find this a more intelligent and interesting attack by the Skrulls
>>> then any simple straight. It reflects society and its paranoia the
>>> same way the red scare stories made sense for an earlier generation.
>> Actually, with the portrayal of the Skrulls actually being that powerful, it's less realistic w/ what reflects society and it's paranoia. Backintheday, they were shapeshifters and could be hiding everywhere, you couldn't tell who was actually one or not. Like those Commies.
>> Nowadays, we have our suspected terrorists and illegal aliens, who could be hiding everywhere, but w/o a strong sense of how physically dangerous they as a group can be, just a vague sense of how dangerous the dangerous ones are.
> war paranoia. What you get now is more than just a fear of terror its
> a fear of the person next to you. As for the power I'd say what most
> people fear the most in North America right now isn't the terrorists
> it's the government. Not to get political but Cheney scares me a
> helluva a lot more than some unknown terrorist.
Well, we all sorta know what techincally can be done by our politicians, we can extrapolate pretty easily since we've got a history from the political machine. Skrulls now are coming up with completely new powers and abilities that can't really be explained away other than "didn't feel like doing it", which for a worlds conquering expanding race, they are going super slow to world domination.
Logical (but ludacris) extrapolation is still understandable than the great unknown.
Tony
> and thus argento32 inscribed ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 6:11 pm, ~consul <con...@dolphins-coveINVALID.com> wrote:
> >> and thus argento32 inscribed ...
> >>> On Apr 26, 8:31 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> Secret Invasion has been interesting as well. I am more than a little
> >>> tired of people saying "well if they can do this why..." I for one
> >>> find this a more intelligent and interesting attack by the Skrulls
> >>> then any simple straight. It reflects society and its paranoia the
> >>> same way the red scare stories made sense for an earlier generation.
> >> Actually, with the portrayal of the Skrulls actually being that powerful, it's less realistic w/ what reflects society and it's paranoia. Backintheday, they were shapeshifters and could be hiding everywhere, you couldn't tell who was actually one or not. Like those Commies.
> >> Nowadays, we have our suspected terrorists and illegal aliens, who could be hiding everywhere, but w/o a strong sense of how physically dangerous they as a group can be, just a vague sense of how dangerous the dangerous ones are.
> > I see your point but the skrulls of the past defined the whole cold
> > war paranoia. What you get now is more than just a fear of terror its
> > a fear of the person next to you. As for the power I'd say what most
> > people fear the most in North America right now isn't the terrorists
> > it's the government. Not to get political but Cheney scares me a
> > helluva a lot more than some unknown terrorist.
>
> Well, we all sorta know what techincally can be done by our politicians, we can extrapolate pretty easily since we've got a history from the political machine. Skrulls now are coming up with completely new powers and abilities that can't really be explained away other than "didn't feel like doing it", which for a worlds conquering expanding race, they are going super slow to world domination.
>
--well as we all know the entire Skrull Empire faced a devastating set
back to *any* of it's plans when Galactus ate the throneworld. Their
empire was in chaos for years. It was starting to get back together
when the Annihilation Wave hit.
All indications point to a segment of the Skrull population following
the female seen in Secret Invasion #1 as being the ones who have
concocted this scheme. The idea may have been there since shortly
after the first Kree/Skrull War, but with an empire in shambles, it's
gotta be hard to mount any kind of invasion (secret or otherwise).
As for the powers, I think it makes sense that when the Skrulls
captured the Illuminati, they learned quite a bit about humans,
mutants, and Inhumans. It stands to reason that they could have used
everything they learned, plus their advanced technology to enhance
their shapeshifting powers.
Tony
grinningdemon
wrote:
Agreed...though, of all Stan Lee's creations, Spiderman easily gets
the worst of it...with the Thing as a distant second (although he's
really only ever had that one problem).
grinningdemon
>
>You seem to be unable to add the phrase "in your opinion" to any of
>your statements. You write it down likes its some almighty fact. Its
>an opinion same as mine, no better no less. You mightn't find it
>particularly interesting but thats you, I am enjoying it and with
>every issue enjoying it more.
I don't feel the need to qualify my statements with "in your
opinion"...obviously, anything we say here is our opinion...I prefer
to state my point followed by my reasoning...if anyone takes that as
fact, then I guess I made my point...and I notice you don't always
qualify your statements as opinion either.
I never said my opinion was any better than yours...though, honestly,
we all think that way...I respect your opinion but I don't understand
your reasoning.
>
>JMS never really impressed me with his take on Spidey. He started ok
>but he really seemed unsure of where he was taking it.
I think he had a very clear plan up through Sins Past which,
regardless of who is to blame for it, completely derailed his run on
the book...that said, I thought his characterization up to that point
was wonderful and spot on for everyone but Aunt May...whom he actually
made interesting for the first time...ever.
>
>Your excuse for every bad story done is the retcon. "if there was no
>retcon there'd be no Others", "if there was no retcon..." Bull, it was
>sloppy horrid writing that bastardized the character and made him
>completely unlike who he was. Peter can grow without those horrible
>horrible stories. And just because everything is being retconned is no
>excuse for a writer to get sloppy and lazy.
It WAS bad writing...but most of that bad writing had no lasting
effect on the character...all it would have taken was a decent writer
to come aboard and turn it around...virtually all of the stories that
limited this were the ones concieved expressly to be retconned out
(possibly in an effort to make the retcon seem necessary)...Peter
doesn't need to lose almost all his history to get back on track...he
just needs writers who don't suck...and the retcon is the ULTIMATE
excuse for writers to get sloppy and lazy...that's what it's all
about...the creators saw all these SUPPOSED problems with the
character (even before the ID reveal and The Other) and, rather than
come up with clever, well-written fixes for those "problems," they
chose to wipe them all out with a hand wave..."it's magic."
That said, I'm not defending those stories they come up with knowing
they were to be retconned...they were crap...I'm only saying that
those crappy stories never would have existed without the retcon.
>
>I'm not the only person enjoying Spidey right now either. I don`t feel
>its a retread at all. I think its finally starting to get back on
>track. We have a fresh start to clear up the mess that Spider-man
>became. Peter as a teacher could have been interesting..sadly it
>didn`t work as expected. Peter and MJ`s marriage was a nice bit of
>stability but I can definitely see how shaking things up can help both
>of these characters who had grown stale together.
In what way is this not a retread? The character's status quo has
essentially been reset to the 70s...whether or not the new villains
are interesting or the new stories are decent is, admittedly,
debatable but I don't see how there can be any doubt that that they
just hit the reset button on the lead character...there is nothing
even remotely original about the Spidey's current status quo...all
they did was dress up his surroundings with new villains.
>
>I`d probably miss the character devlopment too if it hadn`t been so
>sadly done in the last little while.
Well, even if I agree on this point, the retcon doesn't stop at "the
last little while"...half of Spiderman's history has just been wiped
out or else irrevocably altered...and they won't even deal with
that...to me, this is the "sloppy horrid writing that bastardized the
character and made him completely unlike who he was."
>
>No matter what the fanboys say there was more to the retcon than Joe Q
>wanting Pete and MJ broken up. The writing and character had gotten
>very wrong and drastic steps were taken to fix it.
That the stories they've told since Brand New Day have had virtually
nothing to do with the retconned changes beyond the secret ID seems to
suggest otherwise...so far, there has been no story yet told that
really required the retcon...we didn't need a retcon for Peter to go
back to the Bugle...or for JJ to have a heart attack...or for any of
these new villains...Harry hasn't had a significant role in anything
beyond the introduction of his girlfriend...what does that leave?
If "the writing and the character had gotten very wrong," then that
happened on Quesada's watch...he let it happen...so he must not have
thought it was so bad...and the only thing he inherited was the
marriage.
Furthermore, if I am a "fanboy" then so are you, friend...perhaps
moreso since you're still fuming about things that happened in the
books decades ago.
>
>Do I agree with all of it. Not really. OMD was horrible and that was
>written by your fave Spidey writer JM(pass the buck when the going
>gets tough)S. However the stories in BND since he left the book have
>gotten continuously better.
I never said JMS was a my favorite Spidey writer...only that I truly
enjoyed his run up until Sins Past...and, as for passing the buck, I
don't blame him...all the evidence we have suggests that Quesada
hijacked One More Day (and much of his run before that)...if I were
him, I wouldn't want to be villified for it either...that said, he
could've quit rather than write those stories but, even if he had,
Quesada still would have had SOMEONE write them...or at least
something similar.
I'll agree that the individual BND stories are an improvement over
JMS's latter run...but that isn't saying much...and they weren't
created in a bubble...the new status quo is terrible and the fact that
these stories aren't even dependent on it only makes me even more
angry.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Apr 29, 6:42?am, argento32 <aaronpyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 29, 8:38?am, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com>
I'm right there with you.
argento32
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT), Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com>
I am not sure the retcon is a long long term idea. The fact that they
have been hesitant to deal with specific issues and effects of the
retcon leave me to believe the story isn't sticking. I am a fan of the
stories done now. That being said I think I can take it a lot better
because I have the gnawing suspicion that this is a short term yet
interesting twist with Spider-Man. If the stories could be written
this well with him married to MJ I would have no problem with it.
Though even after the retcon storyline ends I hope MJ and Pete decide
on a trial seperation. Let them break apart and slowly find there way
back to each other. Have some serious character development.
Tony
>
> - Show quoted text -
--You *honestly* think this is short term?
If I were a betting man, I'd bet you a large sum of money that this is
permanent. Joe Quesada's one man push to end the marriage is why it
won't come back. Combine that with the fact that many creators feel
Spidey is easier and more fun to write when he's single and I get the
feeling that even when Joe Q leaves, no one is going to bring the
marriage back.
Tony
Anim8rFSK
<ae431bb3-9882-44bf...@w74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Tony <Tony...@aol.com> wrote:
> --You *honestly* think this is short term?
> If I were a betting man, I'd bet you a large sum of money that this is
> permanent.
So you think Spidey will be trapped in a pocket universe in his own
books 'til the end of time?
argento32
>
> Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com> wrote:
> > --You *honestly* think this is short term?
> > If I were a betting man, I'd bet you a large sum of money that this is
> > permanent.
>
> So you think Spidey will be trapped in a pocket universe in his own
> books 'til the end of time?
>
> --
> Star Trek 09:
>
> No Shat, No Show.
I think the retcon will be revealed as a bigger storyline than just
affecting Spidey. The marriage will probably be back but whether they
stay married is up to whomever is writing it. I personally agree that
Spidey is more fun single and am enjoying the recent stories. Just
like many I didn't see the retcon as the ideal way to do this.
Marvel's big on event stories and more character stories. Just like
things in New Avengers heralded the Secret Invasion . I feel the
events in Spider-man will bring on the next big event. I could be
completely off mark but its a gut feeling I have. Be interested in
hearing how others feel about it.
I can't villify Joe Q the way the internet smarks like too. I don't
always agree with his decisions but I definitely respect him for
making Marvel a successful company after the hell it went through
before he took over. People too easily forget the bankruptcy and how
bad off Marvel was before he took over and started introducing things
like Marvel Ultimate and the Marvel films of today.
grinningdemon
As much as I hate it, I think the retcon is here to stay...if it were
only going to be a temporary situation, they would be calling
attention to the inconsistencies rather than glossing over
them...there would be some acknowledgement in the book that a change
was made rather than just pretending it was always this way.
As to Peter and MJ breaking up and slowly coming back together, we
already saw that...they were separated for quite a while before JMS
brought them back together in the beginning of his run...and he did a
great job with it...whatever your feelings about the supernatural
aspects of those stories, I've never seen anyone write Peter and MJ
better as a couple...which makes what came later even more
frustrating...I still can't even figure out why Quesada let JMS get
them back together if he thought it was such a problem that had to be
fixed.
argento32
I've wondered about that too. I was never big on the married Spider-
man in the last few years. I saw great potential for a newly single
Spider-man re-adjusting to being single. Dating again, uncomfortable
meets with MJ. Seeing her dating others. Let's face it the best
romances are the ones that go unrequited for quite awhile. Thats the
reason Moonlighting and Remington Steele went downhill.(sorry but I am
an 80's child so those are my references)
grinningdemon
I'm of the opinion that fictional couples like this only come off as
boring due to bad writing...the writers can't figure out how to make
them interesting and so they often aren't...it doesn't mean it can't
be done...just that it rarely is...all this make-up/break-up crap gets
old...especially in comics where these relationships can last decades.
argento32
For me the perfect example of a successful couple is Nick and Nora
Charles from the Thin Man movies. When a couple can successfully
display that type of chemistry and team work the rest of it just
clicks. The problem with Peter and MJ's marriage is not only has it
lasted for years, its that it feels like it lasted for
yeeaaaarrrrssss. If the right writer could make Peter and MJ as
charming a couple as Nick and Nora I'd be right there cheering them on
but I dont feel anyone really has.
grinningdemon
I think JMS did that quite well in the early part of his run (and Matt
Fraction did an excellent job on the Sensational Spiderman Annual last
year)...but I will admit that, the majority of the time they've been a
couple, they haven't been well written...but that's the case with
virtually every long-lasting couple in comics...look as the mess Scott
and Jean became in the 90s when no one could figure out what to do
with them...and Reed and Sue seem to be separated half the
time...comic writers just don't seem to know how to write interesting
couples (which strikes me as odd since many of them are themselves
married)...but I don't think that's a good reason to chunk 20 years of
history...just find a writer who can handle it...I think Matt Fraction
would have been a good choice, myself...it's not a problem that's
going to go away...it's an endless trend in fictional
couples...typically, they spend a lot of time getting them together
and then, almost from the moment they actually get together, they
already start introducing the problems that will break them up...I
just think that's a bad approach.
Tony
>
> �Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com> wrote:
> > --You *honestly* think this is short term?
> > If I were a betting man, I'd bet you a large sum of money that this is
> > permanent.
>
> So you think Spidey will be trapped in a pocket universe in his own
> books 'til the end of time?
>
> --
> Star Trek 09:
>
> No Shat, No Show.
--Given that I don't think the writers, editors, and EIC consider
Spidey's world anything other than the regular 616 universe (not a
pocket universe, despite the objections of readers), then I suppose
the answer is yes.
Tony
argento32
I don't think writers are automatically looking for ways to break them
up. The problem lies in the fact that writing a couple getting
together has a tremendous amount of dramatic potential. Thats why most
of our love stories are about people who either don't realize they
should be together or face enormous obstacles to get together rarely
about married people. Often when we see stories about a married couple
its often horrible dreck like Mr And Mrs Smith.
Readers are very demanding and writing a marriage well takes a very
unique skill that has to be done quite precise. It's not easy, when a
hero started out single a marriage and (god forbid) the child(the one
device thats always thrown in when the writer has no imagination)
tends to take away from the main character. It's not easy to re-adjust
the focus. They have had a long long time to get this right and
haven't been able to do it yet. It's not like a large amount weren't
there to see a different take on Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man was
extremely successful for taking Parker back to his roots.
Characters with long lasting relationships such as Sue and Reed were
introduced together. They have a unique and different dynamic. Drama
has been created within there relationship, thats why they are a
cornerstone couple. Also they both deal with similiar problems.
To reboot there relationship right now. Its going to take some decent
writing and if this retcon lasts then I hope they find a way to be
together. I also hope she is Jackpot, I think it'd bring an
interesting aspect to there relationship that has been missing. I
really enjoyed the period of time that Pete was with Black Cat sadly
the focus was too much on MJ so they had to create a reason for them
not to work out.(Black Cat liked Spidey not Pete) MJ has always been a
writer and fan favorite but sadly its taken away from other
characters. Stan Lee just as much admitted that he enjoyed writing MJ
so much that lines that were meant for Gwen were given to MJ.
As a fan of Gwen and the Black Cat, I can honestly say that I have a
love/hate relationship with MJ depending on whose writing it. It all
depends on the writing.
Anim8rFSK
<ee1766d3-d53f-4de1...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Tony <Tony...@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 1, 2:55?pm, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <ae431bb3-9882-44bf-994c-949c35cb1...@w74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > ?Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > --You *honestly* think this is short term?
> > > If I were a betting man, I'd bet you a large sum of money that this is
> > > permanent.
> >
> > So you think Spidey will be trapped in a pocket universe in his own
> > books 'til the end of time?
> >
> > --
> > Star Trek 09:
> >
> > No Shat, No Show.
>
> --Given that I don't think the writers, editors, and EIC consider
> Spidey's world anything other than the regular 616 universe (not a
> pocket universe, despite the objections of readers), then I suppose
> the answer is yes.
>
> Tony
You think they think the Spider titles are in the same place as the
other titles? Despite them being obviously someplace else?
argento32
It's obvious that in the very least ASM's timeline is different from
the marvel universe at this point.
Anim8rFSK
<e298d971-87ea-40db...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
argento32 <aaron...@gmail.com> wrote:
What he said.