Final Crisis: This Time, the Skies are BLUE!
MikeB
"Image released without comment."
Tony
> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>
> "Image released without comment."
--I'm really surprised they released *any* image. After all, this is
nearly a year away from starting.
Tony
Dan McEwen
news:1184805148.2...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
Wally's a legend! Yay!
Bill Bickel
Who says it's Wally?
And it's not surprising they released this so far in advance: It's DC's
way of saying "Pay attention to Countdown, because this is what it's
counting down to."
Bill Bickel
http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com
http://www.crimepundit.com
Tony
--and I'm surprised they released this image when the book doesn't
come out until next May.
Tony (this is the second time I've written this message. I wonder
where my first response went to...)
Lilith
<billb...@atgmail.com> wrote:
>Dan McEwen wrote:
>> Tony <Tony...@aol.com> wrote in
>> news:1184805148.2...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Jul 17, 12:56?pm, MikeB <MikeBlak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>>>>
>>>> "Image released without comment."
>>> --I'm really surprised they released *any* image. After all, this is
>>> nearly a year away from starting.
>>
>> Wally's a legend! Yay!
>
>Who says it's Wally?
>
>And it's not surprising they released this so far in advance: It's DC's
>way of saying "Pay attention to Countdown, because this is what it's
>counting down to."
I'm not even sure which Green Lantern that is, Kyle or Hal. The light
from the ring seems to obscure his features just enough.
--
Lilith
Michael Wood
"MikeB" <MikeB...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184694980.3...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Great. So even before we can settle down into the New Earth and work out
what the hell has happened to the multiverse, we get another damn, massive
crossover crisis.
I smell a DC set up where we get a "literary" universe where the heroes can
live forever and have non-continuity conflict adventures. Just dandy. May or
may not be the "real" universe.
Michael Wood
Dan McEwen
news:qizni.15049$xe1...@newsfe12.lga:
> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> Tony <Tony...@aol.com> wrote in
>> news:1184805148.2...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Jul 17, 12:56?pm, MikeB <MikeBlak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>>>>
>>>> "Image released without comment."
>>> --I'm really surprised they released *any* image. After all, this
>>> is nearly a year away from starting.
>>
>> Wally's a legend! Yay!
>
> Who says it's Wally?
Because Wally just came back and there's no reason for Barry to not only
return but to take over the name. Wally has more than earned the right
to be the Flash. If Barry comes back, let him be Impulse or freakin'
Johnny Quick or something.
Dan McEwen
news:lkmu93dj6c7r7rtpq...@4ax.com:
Go Kyle! Still, despite my preference, it's most likely Hal. You know,
if Hal had been GL during Morrison's JLA run, I'd almost certainly have
continued to dislike Kyle and come to find Hal interesting. That didn't
happen. To me, GL and Flash must always be Kyle and Wally.
JLB
unambiguous happy ending.
Anti-Monitor decides to take out the various universe again and this
time the heroes successfully stop him instead of just surviving.
JLB
Howard Modell
As I recall the end of CoIE, Superman of E-2 punched the A-M (who was already
reduced to a "fireball") to smithereens. And the Anti-matter universe was itself
being destroyed by the aftershock (which is why Alex Luthor took E-2 Superman,
E-2 Lois, and E-P Superlad into the "paradise' dimension.
I don't, on the other paw, know how that ending got re-orged in the history of
"New Earth" ..
--
H.s.Modell, Computing Maven-Troublemaker/4
---------
If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a shower,
you are not ready to code it. -- Richard Pattis
JLB
Anti-Monitor is already back as the head of the Sinestro Corp.
JLB
Joe Sewell
MikeB <MikeB...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>
> "Image released without comment."
>
I hate to say this, but looking at the image, the best I can think of is
"not again."
COIE was a major event. InfC turned from strange to wonderful with the
last page of InfC #1 to horrible when they trashed the last vestiges of
the pre-COIE Multiverse.
All I can think of when I see the swirling mass of lightning and
what-not is, "not again."
As for the art that resembles the worst possible blend of New Frontier
meets Uncle Sam (i.e. Daryn Cook and ... nuts, can't think of the other
guy's name) ... ick!
Joe Sewell
Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com> wrote:
Blurry Alien? :)
(And, yes, I know that's *not* what his unofficial cameo's name was.)
Joe Sewell
Joe Sewell
Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com> wrote:
To me, it must be Barry & Hal. (But, no, Jay and Alan never had that
same bond, in spite of Faster Friends.)
Dan McEwen
news:ultrajoe-BE623F...@news-server.cfl.rr.com:
Buried Alien is Marvel. They probably trademarked it or something. So,
yeah, Blurry Alien.
Hand-of-Omega
ecstatic over *anything*, are all just like "yeah, whatever"...
Dex
Jay Furr
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:40:49 -0400, Bill Bickel
G'nort!
--
IFIIRZZSKOPGKXEAVOBMJKKVOLF 233
Lilith
wrote:
Didio: That adventure happened on Earth 37.3376302, one of the
sub-Earths of Earth 37.337630. It wasn't intended to be in
continuity. We thought everyone would see that as evident since it
didn't support the fact that Bart Allen brushed his teeth that morning
in the "regular DCU" but we didn't show him doing it in this story.
>Michael Wood
--
Lilith (trying to remember if she brushed her teeth this morning and
if she's the "real" Lilith or a continuity error)
Duggy
> Because Wally just came back and there's no reason for Barry to not only
> return but to take over the name. Wally has more than earned the right
> to be the Flash. If Barry comes back, let him be Impulse or freakin'
> Johnny Quick or something.
There's a Jay Garrick Flash and a Wally West Flash, why can't there be
a Barry Allen Flash?
===
= DUG.
===
Dan McEwen
news:1185347931.8...@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
There can, but the slots in JLA and JSA are filled. If they bumped
another modern version for a Silver Age version again I'd be quite
annoyed.
Glenn Simpson
I'm sure this wouldn't be popular with some people, but IF Barry came
back (and I'm not pro or con for that), I don't have a problem with
Wally quitting the JLA and going back to hang with his contempories
like Nightwing, Troia, Red Arrow (who would also leave), etc. It's
not that any of them aren't good enough for the JLA, they're just a
different generation. Hanging out with Batman and Superman is hanging
out with the old guys.
Dan McEwen
news:1185395797.0...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
I would have a big problem with it. Wally successfully stepped into the
role in ways that no one who ever replaced a prior version ever did.
Kyle was a disaster from the start (though he improved significantly
over time), and none of the replacements for Superman, Batman, and WW
were really any good. No one could see them as anything other than
short-term fill-ins. Even the Aquaman replacement has been poorly
received. Wally was different. He earned that role and deserves to
keep it.
Tim Turnip
Agreed. Ever since Johns' Titans started crumbling with Kon-El's
death, I've been clamoring for a new Titans that would essentially
assemble the classic Wolfman lineup as an adult team -- kinda like the
Devin Grayson series except done right. The problem with the current
take on the JLA is that by positioning the JLA as the premier
superteam that every young hero wants to join eventually, it sets up
unrealistic expectations and ghetto-izes all the adult non-JLA teams.
I'd prefer a more equanamitous world where the JLA can co-exist with
other adult teams as peers. The JLA could still be the best of the
best, but they shouldn't be considered the only game in town.
(That being said, Roy is one of my favorite things about Meltzer's JLA
even if he is a Mary Sue.)
Dan McEwen
news:9dlfa39ancele5ff7...@4ax.com:
>>I'm sure this wouldn't be popular with some people, but IF Barry came
>>back (and I'm not pro or con for that), I don't have a problem with
>>Wally quitting the JLA and going back to hang with his contempories
>>like Nightwing, Troia, Red Arrow (who would also leave), etc. It's
>>not that any of them aren't good enough for the JLA, they're just a
>>different generation. Hanging out with Batman and Superman is hanging
>>out with the old guys.
>
> Agreed. Ever since Johns' Titans started crumbling with Kon-El's
> death, I've been clamoring for a new Titans that would essentially
> assemble the classic Wolfman lineup as an adult team -- kinda like the
> Devin Grayson series except done right.
Here's why I disagree. *No one* will ever continue what Wolfman did.
Ever. The line-up does not make for good stories. The writer makes
good stories. And even Wolfman's stories about the Titans took a
serious nosedive toward the end. You want back the the team that
existed in the mid-80s, with the same relationships and places in life.
That can never happen. They've all changed immensely and don't
necessary fit together like that used to do. IMO, it's best to keep
those fond memories rather than have someone come along and screw it up,
because you know that's the most likely scenario.
Tony
> Tim Turnip <timtur...@gmail.com> wrote innews:9dlfa39ancele5ff7...@4ax.com:
--see, and I agree with the other poster.
I'd love to see the NTT team reunited on a permanent basis, assuming
the writing is good. Devin's Titans series had the potential for
that, but missed the mark.
The very fact that Dick, Donna, Roy, Wally, Kory, etc have grown and
changed means there is plenty of story material and drama to mine
between the characters. Moreover, unlike the Marvel Universe, DC
doesn't have a big time "family" team. I think given the bonds the
core NTT shared by virtue of being so young and growing up together,
that they're family.
Who wants things to go back to the way there were in the 80s? I know
I don't. I see immense potential for Nightwing, Donna Troy, Flash,
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Tempest, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire to be a close
knit team of near-family that come together to hang together and kick
ass.
Tony
grinningdemon
wrote:
I wouldn't say Kyle was a disaster...contentious, certainly...but not
a disaster...if he were a disaster they would have done what they just
did with Bart Allen/Flash...and he wouldn't have lasted as he
has...personally, I always liked the character even if I didn't always
like the way he was written (you are right that he implroved greatly
over time) and I wish they'd left Hal dead.
Still, I agree with you that the "replacements" that come out of
nowhere are rarely well received (although I wouldn't use Batman,
Superman, and WW replacements as examples since none of them were ever
intended as permanent changes)...Wally came to the role gradually over
time and the simple fact is that writers these days rarely have the
patience to do it that way...and, as a result, the replacements often
fail to take off...although Geoff Johns has done some interesting
things along these lines in JSA.
Tim Turnip
wrote:
>Tim Turnip <timt...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:9dlfa39ancele5ff7...@4ax.com:
>
>>>I'm sure this wouldn't be popular with some people, but IF Barry came
>>>back (and I'm not pro or con for that), I don't have a problem with
>>>Wally quitting the JLA and going back to hang with his contempories
>>>like Nightwing, Troia, Red Arrow (who would also leave), etc. It's
>>>not that any of them aren't good enough for the JLA, they're just a
>>>different generation. Hanging out with Batman and Superman is hanging
>>>out with the old guys.
>>
>> Agreed. Ever since Johns' Titans started crumbling with Kon-El's
>> death, I've been clamoring for a new Titans that would essentially
>> assemble the classic Wolfman lineup as an adult team -- kinda like the
>> Devin Grayson series except done right.
>
>Here's why I disagree. *No one* will ever continue what Wolfman did.
>Ever.
That's slightly pessimistic...
>The line-up does not make for good stories. The writer makes
>good stories.
Agreed. But it's not like Wolfman is the only good writer out there.
I'm not saying I specifically want someone current like Johns or
Bedard on it but eventually someone will come along with the right
take.
>You want back the the team that
>existed in the mid-80s, with the same relationships and places in life.
>That can never happen. They've all changed immensely and don't
>necessary fit together like that used to do.
No, I don't want the team as they existed in the mid-80s. I want
those characters as they exist now, with the history of everything
they went through then and since. They all have changed immensely but
that doesn't mean their inter-relationships will have evaporated;
quite the contrary. That was one of the chief things the Wolfman
stories established, that these characters have really become a
family, one of the few of its kind in the DCU, and those kinds of
bonds don't just go away, they tend to strengthen over time. As Tony
said in his excellent post, there is much room to explore the changes
that these characters have undergone in the years since Wolfman's
tales.
>IMO, it's best to keep
>those fond memories rather than have someone come along and screw it up,
>because you know that's the most likely scenario.
I prefer not to bank on failure, it's a depressing way to live. I'd
rather people keep stepping up to try until someone gets it right.
Dan McEwen
news:1185417085....@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 25, 8:10?pm, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here's why I disagree. *No one* will ever continue what Wolfman did.
>> Ever. The line-up does not make for good stories. The writer makes
>> good stories. And even Wolfman's stories about the Titans took a
>> serious nosedive toward the end. You want back the the team that
>> existed in the mid-80s, with the same relationships and places in
>> life. That can never happen. They've all changed immensely and don't
>> necessary fit together like that used to do. IMO, it's best to keep
>> those fond memories rather than have someone come along and screw it
>> up, because you know that's the most likely scenario.
>
> --see, and I agree with the other poster.
> I'd love to see the NTT team reunited on a permanent basis, assuming
> the writing is good. Devin's Titans series had the potential for
> that, but missed the mark.
> The very fact that Dick, Donna, Roy, Wally, Kory, etc have grown and
> changed means there is plenty of story material and drama to mine
> between the characters. Moreover, unlike the Marvel Universe, DC
> doesn't have a big time "family" team. I think given the bonds the
> core NTT shared by virtue of being so young and growing up together,
> that they're family.
And here's how I see it. You're in college and have these great friends
who you spend all your time with. They're kind of like your family,
particularly if you go away to school. Then you graduate. For the most
part, you all go your separate ways. It doesn't mean you don't keep in
touch or stay friends, just that things are different. The more time
you spend apart the more you change. So even if you did all get back
together somehow it wouldn't be the same. Dick has gone to the
Outsiders, Roy went to the Outsiders and then the JLA (and,
incidentally, wasn't anything approaching a core member of the NTT at
their height), Donna's been...whatever Donna's been, and Wally's been in
the JLA for *years*. Raven, Cyborg, Starfire, and Beast Boy have been
here or there at different times but no one seems all that broken up
when any or all of them disappear. Plus, Raven has changed so
dramatically (except for those two Liefeld issues when she mysteriously
reverted to the NTT version) that I'm not sure how she'd fit. It made
better sense for her to hang with the younger Titans.
> Who wants things to go back to the way there were in the 80s? I know
> I don't. I see immense potential for Nightwing, Donna Troy, Flash,
> Arsenal/Red Arrow, Tempest, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire to be a close
> knit team of near-family that come together to hang together and kick
> ass.
Whereas I don't. I'm happy with Wally and Roy in the JLA. As long as
the TPB views the JLA as the premier team (which they have since
Morrison's run), anything less smacks of a demotion.
Dan McEwen
> On 26 Jul 2007 01:10:23 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Agreed. Ever since Johns' Titans started crumbling with Kon-El's
>>> death, I've been clamoring for a new Titans that would essentially
>>> assemble the classic Wolfman lineup as an adult team -- kinda like
>>> the Devin Grayson series except done right.
>>
>>Here's why I disagree. *No one* will ever continue what Wolfman did.
>>Ever.
>
> That's slightly pessimistic...
I see lots more mediocre and bad writers than good writers.
>>The line-up does not make for good stories. The writer makes
>>good stories.
>
> Agreed. But it's not like Wolfman is the only good writer out there.
> I'm not saying I specifically want someone current like Johns or
> Bedard on it but eventually someone will come along with the right
> take.
Eventually. In the meantime you're more like to get someone like Devin
Grayson (or someone slightly better or worse). If a great writer has a
solid concept for the team, I could see it, but right now it would just
be "let's put them together because they used to be good together".
>>You want back the the team that
>>existed in the mid-80s, with the same relationships and places in
>>life. That can never happen. They've all changed immensely and don't
>>necessary fit together like that used to do.
>
> No, I don't want the team as they existed in the mid-80s. I want
> those characters as they exist now, with the history of everything
> they went through then and since. They all have changed immensely but
> that doesn't mean their inter-relationships will have evaporated;
> quite the contrary.
OK, but hasn't Wally developed other friends and relationships? Don't
many of the heroes seem him as an equal in ways they almost certainly
didn't before he joined the JLA? Whatever your personal feelings, the
perception is that being means you've reached the top.
OTOH, I could see the old gang getting back together for the occasional
mini, but nothing long-term.
>>IMO, it's best to keep
>>those fond memories rather than have someone come along and screw it
>>up, because you know that's the most likely scenario.
>
> I prefer not to bank on failure, it's a depressing way to live. I'd
> rather people keep stepping up to try until someone gets it right.
I'd rather not bank on failure, too, but I've seen too much of it to
want my fond memories be ruined. (I've previously used Magik as one of
the ones I always wanted back; now that she's back I wish they had never
done so.) Incidentally, I don't live my whole life expecting failure
but I'm no longer confident that comic companies can come through.
Dan McEwen
news:rnhga3puh2b839td7...@4ax.com:
> On 25 Jul 2007 21:11:28 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>I would have a big problem with it. Wally successfully stepped into
>>the role in ways that no one who ever replaced a prior version ever
>>did. Kyle was a disaster from the start (though he improved
>>significantly over time), and none of the replacements for Superman,
>>Batman, and WW were really any good. No one could see them as
>>anything other than short-term fill-ins. Even the Aquaman replacement
>>has been poorly received. Wally was different. He earned that role
>>and deserves to keep it.
>
> I wouldn't say Kyle was a disaster...contentious, certainly...but not
> a disaster...if he were a disaster they would have done what they just
> did with Bart Allen/Flash...and he wouldn't have lasted as he
> has...personally, I always liked the character even if I didn't always
> like the way he was written (you are right that he implroved greatly
> over time)
I think Kyle was badly written when introduced. It took Morrison to
make him interesting (and in a team book, no less). I don't assume
sales make a book good - just look at New Avengers.
and I wish they'd left Hal dead.
>
> Still, I agree with you that the "replacements" that come out of
> nowhere are rarely well received (although I wouldn't use Batman,
> Superman, and WW replacements as examples since none of them were ever
> intended as permanent changes)...Wally came to the role gradually over
> time and the simple fact is that writers these days rarely have the
> patience to do it that way...and, as a result, the replacements often
> fail to take off...although Geoff Johns has done some interesting
> things along these lines in JSA.
Actually, Wally stepped into the role as soon as the Crisis was over.
There wasn't any waiting unless you mean to say that he had to grow into
the role. That's certainly true. He came a long way from where he was
in Flash #1 to where he is now.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:rnhga3puh2b839td7...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 25 Jul 2007 21:11:28 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>I would have a big problem with it. Wally successfully stepped into
>>>the role in ways that no one who ever replaced a prior version ever
>>>did. Kyle was a disaster from the start (though he improved
>>>significantly over time), and none of the replacements for Superman,
>>>Batman, and WW were really any good. No one could see them as
>>>anything other than short-term fill-ins. Even the Aquaman replacement
>>>has been poorly received. Wally was different. He earned that role
>>>and deserves to keep it.
>>
>> I wouldn't say Kyle was a disaster...contentious, certainly...but not
>> a disaster...if he were a disaster they would have done what they just
>> did with Bart Allen/Flash...and he wouldn't have lasted as he
>> has...personally, I always liked the character even if I didn't always
>> like the way he was written (you are right that he implroved greatly
>> over time)
>
>I think Kyle was badly written when introduced. It took Morrison to
>make him interesting (and in a team book, no less). I don't assume
>sales make a book good - just look at New Avengers.
Overall, I didn't really care for Marz's run on GL either...I like
some of the characters and plots he came up with along the way but it
was still pretty weak...I do, however, love the Kyle character...I
love the idea of an artist GL whose imagination knows no bounds...in
my head (and, sadly, few writers have been able to pull this off) Kyle
would never make the same ring creation twice and things would just
kind of spew forth out of his head.
Hal was always the consumate soldier...he was a practical rather than
a creative fighter (lots of boxing gloves and simple force fields and
what not)...he, and the other GLs who came before Kyle, never really
used the ring to it's fullest potential...that's why I like Kyle.
Morrison took Marz's idea and made it work...and Winick also did a
great job with the character when he came on board GL...what I really
would have loved to see was Morrison (just about the most imaginative
writer in comics today) taking over Kyle's GL book...I think it would
have been a perfect match and a sorely missed opportunity.
>
> and I wish they'd left Hal dead.
>>
>> Still, I agree with you that the "replacements" that come out of
>> nowhere are rarely well received (although I wouldn't use Batman,
>> Superman, and WW replacements as examples since none of them were ever
>> intended as permanent changes)...Wally came to the role gradually over
>> time and the simple fact is that writers these days rarely have the
>> patience to do it that way...and, as a result, the replacements often
>> fail to take off...although Geoff Johns has done some interesting
>> things along these lines in JSA.
>
>Actually, Wally stepped into the role as soon as the Crisis was over.
>There wasn't any waiting unless you mean to say that he had to grow into
>the role. That's certainly true. He came a long way from where he was
>in Flash #1 to where he is now.
What I meant is that Wally had been around for a long time previous to
taking over as Flash...and, thanks chiefly to Wolfman and Perez, he
had grown up considerably in the years prior to taking over the the
mantle and, by the time it happened, it seemed like a natural
succession (unlike most of the replacement heroes)...and, yes, there
was a kind of learning curve for him once he became Flash...it took
time for him to find his footing...and that added depth to his story.
Dan McEwen
news:qn5ia3l74oc5modrh...@4ax.com:
>>Actually, Wally stepped into the role as soon as the Crisis was over.
>>There wasn't any waiting unless you mean to say that he had to grow
>>into the role. That's certainly true. He came a long way from where
>>he was in Flash #1 to where he is now.
>
> What I meant is that Wally had been around for a long time previous to
> taking over as Flash...and, thanks chiefly to Wolfman and Perez, he
> had grown up considerably in the years prior to taking over the the
> mantle and, by the time it happened, it seemed like a natural
> succession (unlike most of the replacement heroes)...and, yes, there
> was a kind of learning curve for him once he became Flash...it took
> time for him to find his footing...and that added depth to his story.
This is true. Note that during his learning period the JLA was not the
team where it meant you'd made it. Maybe someone thought it was
supposed to be so but it wasn't. By the time he had fully grown into
being Flash he was put into the "Pantheon" Morrison created in JLA. He
fit in well.
Tony
> Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com> wrote innews:1185417085....@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 8:10?pm, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Here's why I disagree. *No one* will ever continue what Wolfman did.
> >> Ever. The line-up does not make for good stories. The writer makes
> >> good stories. And even Wolfman's stories about the Titans took a
> >> serious nosedive toward the end. You want back the the team that
> >> existed in the mid-80s, with the same relationships and places in
> >> life. That can never happen. They've all changed immensely and don't
> >> necessary fit together like that used to do. IMO, it's best to keep
> >> those fond memories rather than have someone come along and screw it
> >> up, because you know that's the most likely scenario.
>
> > --see, and I agree with the other poster.
> > I'd love to see the NTT team reunited on a permanent basis, assuming
> > the writing is good. Devin's Titans series had the potential for
> > that, but missed the mark.
> > The very fact that Dick, Donna, Roy, Wally, Kory, etc have grown and
> > changed means there is plenty of story material and drama to mine
> > between the characters. Moreover, unlike the Marvel Universe, DC
> > doesn't have a big time "family" team. I think given the bonds the
> > core NTT shared by virtue of being so young and growing up together,
> > that they're family.
>
> And here's how I see it. You're in college
--I'm snipping your post here, b/c you're making an unfair analogy.
The relationships shared by the core Titans we're speaking of were
developed before they were college age. Moreover, those relationships
lasted through their teenage years and past their college years. The
bonds they forged growing up together and staying together for so long
transcend the friendships one might develop in college. These guys
fought, loved and in some cases died together. Those are powerful
bonds that have certainly been tested, but not broken. Yes, they've
gone their separate ways, but those bonds are strong enough that they
could conceivably reform the Titans with just them as members. Would
it be like it was in the 80s? Heck no. In fact, it has the potential
to be greater b/c of how much the characters have grown since then.
> Whereas I don't. ?I'm happy with Wally and Roy in the JLA. ?As long
as
> the TPB views the JLA as the premier team (which they have since
> Morrison's run), anything less smacks of a demotion
--you don't see the potential? huh.
Tony (notice though, that I never said Roy or Wally should *leave* the
JLA)
Tony
> On 26 Jul 2007 19:15:58 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
> >news:rnhga3puh2b839td7...@4ax.com:
>
> >> On 25 Jul 2007 21:11:28 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM...@gmail.com>
--I want to say--and I could be misremembering this--that Ron Marz
made a few comments waaaaaaaaay back in the weeks after Kyle's
introduction that this was the plan. He *wouldn't* be making the same
constructs, b/c he's an artist with a great imagination.
Personally, I've yet to find Kyle compelling. Just being an artist
with a great imagination doesn't make him a great character for me.
There were snippets of a personality in Morrison's JLA (such as issue
one's comment about him playing with the Beatles), but overall I felt
no one has adequately given him any depth (and no, I don't count
Winnick's work b/c so much of it was so heavy handed, I never knew if
this was Kyle speaking or Judd by way of Kyle).
Tony
Duggy
> There can, but the slots in JLA and JSA are filled. If they bumped
> another modern version for a Silver Age version again I'd be quite
> annoyed.
There's always a Titans/Outsiders group with Nightwing, et al.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
>grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
Agreed...although I didn't care much for his own series until Waid
came on board.
grinningdemon
I am sure that it was the intention fo Marz for Kyle's creativity to
factor in more heavily...but, unfortunately, Marz himself doesn't have
the imagination to make that work (or maybe that was the artist's
fault)...instead of the traditional boxing glove, Kyle kept coming up
with variations on ray guns (which were essentially the same)...it was
a good idea that lacked in follow through until other writers took a
turn...and I found Kyle's story to be fairly compelling right from the
beginning but I think that has a great deal to do with the fact that
he and I were new to Green Lantern at the same time...I had never read
GL until he took over so I was learning about it all as he did...and I
loved it at the time...and I thought Winick it a great job with
it...the whole "gay bashing" story was a bit preachy (which, I'll
admit, Winick is prone to) but, other than that, I think he handled
the character beautifully...and dealing with controversial social
issues is nothing new for Green Lantern so it didn't seem out of place
or anything...I thought it worked out pretty well.
Tony
--see I think there's a distinction between the plot elements being
intriguing and the character actually being interesting. Sure some of
the plot elements of Green Lantern *post* Emerald Dawn might have been
intriguing, but what was it about Kyle's personality that interested
people? To this day I still don't think he's been adequately fleshed
out.
I had never read
> GL until he took over so I was learning about it all as he did...and I
> loved it at the time...and I thought Winick it a great job with
> it...the whole "gay bashing" story was a bit preachy (which, I'll
> admit, Winick is prone to) but, other than that, I think he handled
> the character beautifully...and dealing with controversial social
> issues is nothing new for Green Lantern so it didn't seem out of place
> or anything...I thought it worked out pretty well.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tony
Dan McEwen
news:1185513266.2...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
Then stick Barry there. He can hang out with Batman.
grinningdemon
Initially, there wasn't much depth to Kyle at all...and that was
intentional I think...he was a fairly shallow and superficial guy at
the onset but over time, through trials and tragedies (and better
writers), they added depth to him and I find him a far more
interesting character than Hal ever was...frankly, Hal was always kind
of boring to me and I'm still pissed they brought him back.
Lilith
>--I want to say--and I could be misremembering this--that Ron Marz
>made a few comments waaaaaaaaay back in the weeks after Kyle's
>introduction that this was the plan. He *wouldn't* be making the same
>constructs, b/c he's an artist with a great imagination.
>Personally, I've yet to find Kyle compelling. Just being an artist
>with a great imagination doesn't make him a great character for me.
>There were snippets of a personality in Morrison's JLA (such as issue
>one's comment about him playing with the Beatles), but overall I felt
>no one has adequately given him any depth (and no, I don't count
>Winnick's work b/c so much of it was so heavy handed, I never knew if
>this was Kyle speaking or Judd by way of Kyle).
But being an artist also tends to tag him as someone who's sensitive.
That kind of takes the fighter element out of his personality,
stereotypically. Kyle seems to have a sense of responsibility and he
sticks to it. But I don't seem him having his heart in a battle the
way that Hal or Guy do.
>Tony
--
Lilith
Duggy
Doesn't work for me.
Wally in the JLA and Barry in an Brave & the Bold formed team?
===
= DUG.
===
Jonathan Hoyle
> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>
> "Image released without comment."
Hmmm...Superman's shild looks a little smaller...Batman looks a little
less mysterious... And those certainly look like the orinal Flash, GL
& Hawkman...
Could these be the Silver/Bronze Age heroes who come back? Is the
original Earth-1 back as part of the 52-world multiverse? Do these
iconic Silver Age heroes sacrifise themselves in this Final Crisis?
Probably not. Maybe I'm just hoping for too much to see them again.
Jonathan Hoyle
http://www.jonhoyle.com
Dan McEwen
news:1185613739....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
Wally's already in the JLA. Barry isn't. In any case, Wally not in the
JLA doesn't work for me.
YKW '06
electrons to communicate as follows:
> On Jul 17, 1:56 pm, MikeB <MikeBlak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121230>
>>
>> "Image released without comment."
>
> Hmmm...Superman's shild looks a little smaller...Batman looks a little
> less mysterious... And those certainly look like the orinal Flash, GL
> & Hawkman...
The second of each, actually (though the Flash-that-seems-to-be-Barry
could be any number of guys).
> Could these be the Silver/Bronze Age heroes who come back? Is the
> original Earth-1 back as part of the 52-world multiverse? Do these
> iconic Silver Age heroes sacrifise themselves in this Final Crisis?
Prediction: Some do, some don't. The ones that die get rebooted into the
new (and heretofore-unseen) Earth-1 and the next DC Universe begins for
them with completely clean slates while the old DCU books deal with the
aftermath, the losses, and the rebuilding without (at a minimum) the
Trinity ever returning.
> Probably not. Maybe I'm just hoping for too much to see them again.
>
> Jonathan Hoyle
> http://www.jonhoyle.com
>
I want to see Grant Morrison's WONDER WOMAN without baggage. Ditto Greg
Rucka's BATMAN, and maybe Kurt Busiek's SUPERMAN. Old Earth-1, new Earth-
1, doesn't matter; put top creators on top characters in a brand-new
continuity and let them create and evolve their characters and their new
milieu in an organic fashion. Put those three on newsstands and in Wal-
Marts and let the mainstream forget the rest; leave the rest for the
direct market and all us continuity-porn fappers.
That's what =I'm= hoping for.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
JLB
This kind of question always makes me wonder. How do you decide if a
character is fleshed out or not. Kyle feels fleshed out to me, but I
can't really translate that into words for other people. Some would
argue that means he isn't. But I can't explain how Batman and
Superman are fleshed out either.
JLB
Tony
> This kind of question always makes me wonder. How do you decide if a
> character is fleshed out or not. Kyle feels fleshed out to me, but I
> can't really translate that into words for other people. Some would
> argue that means he isn't. But I can't explain how Batman and
> Superman are fleshed out either.
>
> JLB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--I think alot of it boils down to "how much do you know about the
character--as a person"? Not necessarily the events they've gone
through, but moreso how those events shaped who they are.
How has the effect of someone's life been demonstrated through their
thoughts and actions? What do we know about their inner thoughts?
What is the characters' drive or motivation?
What are their innner thoughts?
What are their secret hopes?
What is it the character lives for?
What hobbies do they have?
What goals do they have?
What are they proud of?
What is their world view (pessimistic, optimistic, realistic)?
What do they place importance on?
What fears do they have?
What vices do they have?
What virtues do they have?
What are their politics?
These are the kinds of questions I ask when deciding whether a
character is well rounded. Granted not all of them will ever be
answered, but an attempt to round out the character will results in
several of these (or others) being answered. When I think of Kyle
Rayner, the biggest thing that comes to mind is that he's a creative
artist. That's all well and good, but...what else is he?
Tony
Duggy
> > Doesn't work for me.
> > Wally in the JLA and Barry in an Brave & the Bold formed team?
> Wally's already in the JLA.
That's what I'm saying. I've accepted you point and your view and
left him in the JLA.
Hense, Wally in the JLA.
> Barry isn't.
Mostly because he's dead.
> In any case, Wally not in the
> JLA doesn't work for me.
I understood that, so I left him there for you and created a Brave &
the Bold based team for Barry.
So... what do you think of that idea?
===
= DUG.
===
Dan McEwen
Duggy
> Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2:12 am, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAM...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> In any case, Wally not in the
> >> JLA doesn't work for me.
> > I understood that, so I left him there for you and created a Brave &
> > the Bold based team for Barry.
> > So... what do you think of that idea?
> It's fine.
Of course, with a B&B based team I can't really get past a silver age
JLA, or a JLA:Year One JLA.
Any ideas?
===
= DUG.
===
Joe Sewell
Jonathan Hoyle <jonh...@mac.com> wrote:
As long as they don't kill *them,* too, I'm for it.
black...@aol.com
> In article <1185630341.314735.76...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Heroes die, legends live forever." Barry, Kal, Wally, Kal El, Kal L,
die. Superman, Batman, Flash, etc. live forever.
Duggy
> "Heroes die, legends live forever." Barry, Kal, Wally, Kal El, Kal L,
> die. Superman, Batman, Flash, etc. live forever.
Who is Kal? Barry's already dead.
You think that they are bringing Wally back for about 13 issues after
doing the same with Bart?
This makes no sense.
New Earth dies. Earths 1 - 51 live forever and have Barry, Wally, Kal-
L, Kal-El, Superman, Batman, Flash.
===
= DUG.
===
black...@aol.com
What I meant is that Barry, Wally, Hal Jordan, Kal-El, and Kal-L have
all died at one point or another in the last twenty years. The masks,
the heroes, live forever. The men behind the mask die. I expect Final
Crisis to wipe out all 52 earths. Then the DCU will reboot with the
heroes pictured on the cover, but the people behind those masks will
be totally different.