52verse/Wildstorm
Duggy
Batman/Wonderwoman on Earth-50 (Wildstorm) which means that the 52 can
be completely different.
I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
heroes failed to emerge?
A second question, once again, haven't read the new stuff, but I saw a
reference somewhere to The Authority moving to a "Low Energy Earth"
with no heroes... could this be part of the 52verse... a possible
Earth-Prime?
And finally, is there any reason to believe that Earth-50 is the
actually Wildstorm Universe or just a 52 "vaguely familiar" version?
===
= DUG.
===
GregoryD
I'd love to see a death of Superboy Prime by being stuck in the WSU.
GregoryD
Duggy
> I'd love to see a death of Superboy Prime by being stuck in the WSU.
That is a definition of death... how?
===
= DUG.
===
james...@hmrcaspire.com
> I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
> Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
> heroes failed to emerge?
Planetary #10 features variations on Superman, Wonder Woman and Green
Lantern dying at the start of their careers -- but they're no closer
than the Hulk, Fantastic Four, Tarzan, Godzilla etc. variants that
also show up in the series. Planetary and Stormwatch featured separate
JLA variants, as well. Planetary/Batman does feature something closer
to what you describe, with Dick Grayson and the Joker showing up in
the Wildstorm Universe, several Batmen in parallel universes, and Snow
implying he got involved in the Crisis.
To make matters more complicated, Planetary, The Authority and other
Wildstorm books have all used parallel universes with abandon
(Planetary suggests there are several million), in a way that doesn't
really fit with the 52 at all.
Glenn Simpson
I suppose it's possible that Earth-50 could be the "Earth Wildstorm
Crossover" where it has the same basic characters but it's not
necessarily the same place. But it's where any future crossovers of
regular DCU and WU would take place.
Chenry
> In some other discussion, it was mentioned that there was no Superman/
> Batman/Wonderwoman on Earth-50 (Wildstorm) which means that the 52 can
> be completely different.
>
> I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
> Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
> heroes failed to emerge?
There is one issue of Planetary that deals with Superman, Wonder
Woman, and GL analogs getting cut down before they really become
heroes, but I don't think it's ever suggested that the state of the WS
universe is a direct result of those actions, re: the Nail.
> A second question, once again, haven't read the new stuff, but I saw a
> reference somewhere to The Authority moving to a "Low Energy Earth"
> with no heroes... could this be part of the 52verse... a possible
> Earth-Prime?
Just from a quick flip-through, it does seem like it's an Earth-Prime
of sorts, meaning "our" Earth. Of course, I have no idea how tightly
the WS and DC editors are collaborating.
Crimespree Magazine
All the Wildstorm parallel universes are connected by The Bleed, which is supposed to be behind the Source Wall.
Jon
Eminence
wrote:
>Duggy wrote:
>> In some other discussion, it was mentioned that there was no Superman/
>> Batman/Wonderwoman on Earth-50 (Wildstorm) which means that the 52 can
>> be completely different.
>>
>> I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
>> Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
>> heroes failed to emerge?
Yes, at the hands of the WSU version of the FF (oh, spoiler). And yet,
they didn't do anything to stop the emergence of the Authority, so
chalk that up to the failings of a shared universe or something...
Eminence
_______________
Usenet: Global Village of the Damned
plausible prose man
> On Jul 17, 4:24 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
> > Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
> > heroes failed to emerge?
>
> Planetary #10 features variations on Superman, Wonder Woman and Green
> Lantern dying at the start of their careers -- but they're no closer
> than the Hulk, Fantastic Four, Tarzan, Godzilla etc. variants that
> also show up in the series.
Also, the earth depicted in Planetary has come under attack by some
version of the Justice League, and perhaps twice if you count the
Planetary/Authority cross-over.
Still, all in all, while there may be an Earth DC characters from the
regular monthlies can visit populated by Wildstorm characters, who may
include Drummer et al, the 52-verse isn't really compatible with
Planetary.
Tony
--there are two options, I guess. IIRC, it's been mentioned that the
Bleed may or may not be the space between the 52 universes. If it's
not, then perhaps the Wildstorm universe (which, IMO is quite a bit
different than the DCU; moreso than just Mr Mind eating a few years)
operates on a different plane, or is connected to alternate timelines
differently than the rest of the 52.
The second option is that there *were* several million parallel
universes, but then Infinite Crisis and 52 happened, rearranging
reality, and resulting in there being only 52 other realms.
Tony
Duggy
> On Jul 17, 4:24 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > I haven't read it, but doesn't Planetary suggest that the Wildstorm
> > Universe is a The Nail type universe where some or all of the DC
> > heroes failed to emerge?
> Planetary #10 features variations on Superman, Wonder Woman and Green
> Lantern dying at the start of their careers --
Are they Superman, a unnamed guy in a red cape obviously but not
legally Superman, or extremely powerful flying superhero types?
> but they're no closer
> than the Hulk, Fantastic Four, Tarzan, Godzilla etc. variants that
> also show up in the series. Planetary and Stormwatch featured separate
> JLA variants, as well. Planetary/Batman does feature something closer
> to what you describe, with Dick Grayson and the Joker showing up in
> the Wildstorm Universe, several Batmen in parallel universes, and Snow
> implying he got involved in the Crisis.
Cool.
> To make matters more complicated, Planetary, The Authority and other
> Wildstorm books have all used parallel universes with abandon
> (Planetary suggests there are several million), in a way that doesn't
> really fit with the 52 at all.
How about since Infinite Crisis/Armageddon? Has it changed or been
mentioned as being the same since...
I know The Bleed has been used in the DCU and is out of the Monitors
control...
Sorry, just trying to make sense of things based on comics I haven't
read.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> I suppose it's possible that Earth-50 could be the "Earth Wildstorm
> Crossover" where it has the same basic characters but it's not
> necessarily the same place. But it's where any future crossovers of
> regular DCU and WU would take place.
All of the other 52 worlds are "similar to previous versions", so why
should Earth-50 be any different?
===
= DUG.
===
Jim Connick
"Duggy" <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1184713299.1...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
The Captain Atom miniseries where he got stuck in the Wildstorm Universe
provided something of a reboot for that side of things too, with the
"Worldstorm".
Not that we'd know what's going on over there, with Wildcats & The Authority
pretty much MIA.
james...@hmrcaspire.com
> On Jul 17, 10:36 pm, james.m...@hmrcaspire.com wrote:
>
> > Planetary #10 features variations on Superman, Wonder Woman and Green
> > Lantern dying at the start of their careers --
>
> Are they Superman, a unnamed guy in a red cape obviously but not
> legally Superman, or extremely powerful flying superhero types?
Somewhere between B and C -- the character variants that appear in
Planetary are generally reinvented in a way that tries to get to grips
with some of the thematic material in the character. The Superman
equivalent is made distinctly alien, being long-headed and bluish with
subcutaneous computery stuff, but the origin is just a couple of
twists away from being the same (launching him to Earth is what
actually sets off the destruction of his already-doomed planet, and
he's found and killed on reaching Earth). Most other Planetary
characters, including the non-DC ones, have similar variations.
Glenn Simpson
I don't read Wildstorm, so I don't know if there's some very good
reason to dispute what I'm saying, but what I'm suggesting is that IF
there is some particular reason why having the ongoing monthly
Wildstorm books take place in a world that is part of the 52 is bad
(which is something I got the impression some people had a problem
with), then a possible solution is that they DON'T. The regular
monthly books happen in a world outside the DCU, but within the DCU
there is a Wildstorm-like universe that is available for crossovers
and whatnot without messing up the regular books.
Just a thought...
Duggy
> There is one issue of Planetary that deals with Superman, Wonder
> Woman, and GL analogs getting cut down before they really become
> heroes, but I don't think it's ever suggested that the state of the WS
> universe is a direct result of those actions, re: the Nail.
OK, fair enough, but if Wildstorm has those analogs and most of the
other 52 universes have them or their anologs then it may fit nicely.
> Just from a quick flip-through, it does seem like it's an Earth-Prime
> of sorts, meaning "our" Earth. Of course, I have no idea how tightly
> the WS and DC editors are collaborating.
Good question, yes.
===
= DUG.
===
lione...@yahoo.com
I don't believe that Planetary takes place in the Wildstorm Universe
proper.
JLB
>
> - Show quoted text -
The DC Multiverse was based on the concept of all realities sharing
space, but vibrating on different frequencies so they couldn't
intereact. Perhaps the multiple universe in Wildstorm's reality were
more like next door neighbors.
JLB
Duggy
wrote:
> I don't believe that Planetary takes place in the Wildstorm Universe
> proper.
Because the words Wildstorm and Stormwatch don't both contain the word
"Storm", right?
===
= DUG.
===
lione...@yahoo.com
I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm Universe
titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different universes.
This even applies to the Planetary/Authority one shot.
Duggy
wrote:
> I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
> Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm Universe
> titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different universes.
Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
===
= DUG.
===
Dan McEwen
news:1186204775.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
I think he believes it. Without doubt, the Authority (and by extension,
Stormwatch - which then connects to the rest of the WU) lives in the
same world as Planetary. There was even a crossover of sorts in which
didn't actually meet up.
Duggy
> Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
> I think he believes it. Without doubt, the Authority (and by extension,
> Stormwatch - which then connects to the rest of the WU) lives in the
> same world as Planetary. There was even a crossover of sorts in which
> didn't actually meet up.
Hmmm, reading my reply: I'm really not a very nice person when posting
am I?
All I can do is blame the 9 days straight I've worked with mostly
graveyard shifts... but that doesn't explain my behaviour 10 days ago.
===
= DUG.
===
THREAT LEVEL: TOBY.
===
grinningdemon
I seem to recall a story (maybe from the Jenny Sparks mini?) where
Jenny and Elijah have a one night stand...and, of course, they are
both "century babies." There are also several story concepts and
ideas that are unique to Wildstorm that show in the series like "the
Bleed" (although that one's now been expanded for the whole
DCU)...Planetary is clearly set in the Wildstorm Universe even if it
is fairly isolated.
Dan McEwen
news:tcnab3l5vogg41jdv...@4ax.com:
> On 4 Aug 2007 15:04:25 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in
>>news:1186204775.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
>>>> Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm
>>>> Universe titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different
>>>> universes.
>>>
>>> Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>>
>>I think he believes it. Without doubt, the Authority (and by
>>extension, Stormwatch - which then connects to the rest of the WU)
>>lives in the same world as Planetary. There was even a crossover of
>>sorts in which didn't actually meet up.
>
> I seem to recall a story (maybe from the Jenny Sparks mini?) where
> Jenny and Elijah have a one night stand...and, of course, they are
> both "century babies."
This was the same story. Jenny told the story to someone else in the
Authority. Or maybe Elijah told it. What was happening was that the
Authority and Planetary were running around on the same mission but
doing different things. They never actually crossed paths.
There are also several story concepts and
> ideas that are unique to Wildstorm that show in the series like "the
> Bleed" (although that one's now been expanded for the whole
> DCU)...Planetary is clearly set in the Wildstorm Universe even if it
> is fairly isolated.
IMO, the Bleed isn't a good fit for the DCU. It does work a little bit
better with Marvel (probably because I'm thinking of what Ellis did with
X=Man), but for DC it seems off. The Bleed is essentially infinite.
The DCU is limited (to 52). They don't mesh up.
grinningdemon
>grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:tcnab3l5vogg41jdv...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 4 Aug 2007 15:04:25 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in
>>>news:1186204775.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
>>>>> Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm
>>>>> Universe titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different
>>>>> universes.
>>>>
>>>> Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>>>
>>>I think he believes it. Without doubt, the Authority (and by
>>>extension, Stormwatch - which then connects to the rest of the WU)
>>>lives in the same world as Planetary. There was even a crossover of
>>>sorts in which didn't actually meet up.
>>
>> I seem to recall a story (maybe from the Jenny Sparks mini?) where
>> Jenny and Elijah have a one night stand...and, of course, they are
>> both "century babies."
>
>This was the same story. Jenny told the story to someone else in the
>Authority. Or maybe Elijah told it. What was happening was that the
>Authority and Planetary were running around on the same mission but
>doing different things. They never actually crossed paths.
Fair enough.
>
> There are also several story concepts and
>> ideas that are unique to Wildstorm that show in the series like "the
>> Bleed" (although that one's now been expanded for the whole
>> DCU)...Planetary is clearly set in the Wildstorm Universe even if it
>> is fairly isolated.
>
>IMO, the Bleed isn't a good fit for the DCU. It does work a little bit
>better with Marvel (probably because I'm thinking of what Ellis did with
>X=Man), but for DC it seems off. The Bleed is essentially infinite.
>The DCU is limited (to 52). They don't mesh up.
Agreed...and, as much as I loved the Majestic mini set in the DCU, I'd
just assume the Wildstorm Universe not be included as part of the 52
but whatever...at least Wildstorm characters are original (mostly)
rather than revamps of DC characters.
Duggy
> Agreed...and, as much as I loved the Majestic mini set in the DCU, I'd
> just assume the Wildstorm Universe not be included as part of the 52
> but whatever...at least Wildstorm characters are original (mostly)
> rather than revamps of DC characters.
Yeah, but the Earth-5, 6 & 10 are also part of the 52verse and they
aren't just revamps of DC characters (well, 5 is if you believe the
court case.)
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
Well, actually...they are now...since all of those characters exist on
the concentrated DC earth...just because this is how they originally
joined the DCU doesn't change the fact that they are counterparts to
characters that already existed before 52...you can't say that about
Wildstorm characters.
Duggy
> Well, actually...they are now...since all of those characters exist on
> the concentrated DC earth...just because this is how they originally
> joined the DCU doesn't change the fact that they are counterparts to
> characters that already existed before 52...you can't say that about
> Wildstorm characters.
Yeah, but Majestic has existed in the DCU, too. I know he was only a
visitor, but the same can be said for the Tangent characters, which
are name-only versions.
Before 52 there were no specific Great Disaster characters in the DCU.
I don't believe that you can claim any hard and fast rules about what
the 52verse should or shouldn't contain.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
I'm just stating personal preference...I don't want to see a load of
alternate versions of the same characters...that's been done to death
and it only serves to further degrade continuity that is already
sketchy thanks to Infinite Crisis (and Didio's idiotic preference to
keep it that way).
Duggy
> I'm just stating personal preference...I don't want to see a load of
> alternate versions of the same characters...that's been done to death
> and it only serves to further degrade continuity that is already
> sketchy thanks to Infinite Crisis (and Didio's idiotic preference to
> keep it that way).
Yeah... Although I like and understand Earth 1 & Earth 2... and I even
think Earth 8 would be interesting (if they introduce the Infinite
Crisis Earth 8), but Batman: Vampire and Superman: Red Son are ideas
for Earths that seem a waste of the 52, to me.
Sure, they may be great stories and even interesting universes, but
they seem a waste.
Even the addition of Kingdom Come seem annoying duplication. It's New
Earth or a combination of Earths 1 - 10 with a specific dark future.
That's great but is it necessary?
===
= DUG.
===
Dan McEwen
news:1186590314.2...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 8, 12:06 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> I'm just stating personal preference...I don't want to see a load of
>> alternate versions of the same characters...that's been done to death
>> and it only serves to further degrade continuity that is already
>> sketchy thanks to Infinite Crisis (and Didio's idiotic preference to
>> keep it that way).
>
> Yeah... Although I like and understand Earth 1 & Earth 2... and I even
> think Earth 8 would be interesting (if they introduce the Infinite
> Crisis Earth 8), but Batman: Vampire and Superman: Red Son are ideas
> for Earths that seem a waste of the 52, to me.
>
> Sure, they may be great stories and even interesting universes, but
> they seem a waste.
They are a waste because, while they made for interesting stories in and
of themselves, they were ultimately finite. Where would anyone go with
stories about them? We pretty much know the beginning and the end. In
the case of Red Son, we even see many of the heroes killed off.
> Even the addition of Kingdom Come seem annoying duplication. It's New
> Earth or a combination of Earths 1 - 10 with a specific dark future.
> That's great but is it necessary?
No, but there's a least a lot more room to work than B:V and S:RS.
grinningdemon
...and it looks like Johns is gonna milk Kingdom Come for all it's
worth in JSA starting next issue...I'm not sure how I feel about this.
Dan McEwen
news:78tkb357vqeglve3u...@4ax.com:
>>No, but there's a least a lot more room to work than B:V and S:RS.
>
> ...and it looks like Johns is gonna milk Kingdom Come for all it's
> worth in JSA starting next issue...I'm not sure how I feel about this.
Is Adam Smasher coming back then? Because we know Albert was a member
of the JSA in KS.
grinningdemon
No...apparently the Kingdom Come Superman is joining the team...I
don't know if it's a permanent addition or just for this arc but
still...there was an article about in Comic Shop News a couple weeks
back...apparently Johns and Alex Ross have been planning this since
Ross started doing covers on the last JSA series and they've just been
waiting for the right time...and 52 made it possible...Ross will be
doing some scenes intercut throughout the storyline that take place on
the Kingdom Come earth and I think they're co-plotting the story
together...there is also a rather ominous line when the interviewer
asks if there will be more members joining from other earths and Johns
says something about the exact opposite happening...which sounded to
me like there will be members leaving for other earths...but I hope
I'm wrong on that one.
Duggy
> No...apparently the Kingdom Come Superman is joining the team...I
> don't know if it's a permanent addition or just for this arc but
> still...there was an article about in Comic Shop News a couple weeks
> back...apparently Johns and Alex Ross have been planning this since
> Ross started doing covers on the last JSA series and they've just been
> waiting for the right time...and 52 made it possible...Ross will be
> doing some scenes intercut throughout the storyline that take place on
> the Kingdom Come earth and I think they're co-plotting the story
> together...there is also a rather ominous line when the interviewer
> asks if there will be more members joining from other earths and Johns
> says something about the exact opposite happening...which sounded to
> me like there will be members leaving for other earths...but I hope
> I'm wrong on that one.
Well, the KC Superman is one the Countdown "Bad Guys" poster, so I'd
say he'll stay for as long as he's needed for the Countdown plot.
I still say that New Earth is gone at the end of FC, and I can see how
that would be called the "exact opposite" of people coming to this
Earth.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
The New Earth won't go anywhere...it would screw up half of DC's
books...and, if that were the plan, they would have just done it at
the end of Infinite Crisis...in fact, I'd be surprised if any reality
altering happens in Final Crisis...if that were the "exact opposite"
Johns was talking about, I doubt he would have been allowed to spoil
it.
DC worked way to hard to put everyone on one earth...they won't undo
that now.
Duggy
wrote:
> The New Earth won't go anywhere...it would screw up half of DC's
> books...
Half? It'd screw them all.
Some of them in a good way. Some bad. You know. The usual.
>and, if that were the plan, they would have just done it at
> the end of Infinite Crisis...
Nah, Infinite Crisis set up the multiverse which allows them to do
this.
> in fact, I'd be surprised if any reality
> altering happens in Final Crisis...if that were the "exact opposite"
> Johns was talking about, I doubt he would have been allowed to spoil
> it.
True. Then again, DC seems to love spoilers ATM.
> DC worked way to hard to put everyone on one earth...they won't undo
> that now.
They didn't really work that hard.
They worked hard to try to fix the problems with them all coming from
the one world. Then tried to fix the fixes. Then tried to fix those
fixes...
However, nothing's really fixed.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 12, 12:49 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> The New Earth won't go anywhere...it would screw up half of DC's
>> books...
>
>Half? It'd screw them all.
>
>Some of them in a good way. Some bad. You know. The usual.
>
>>and, if that were the plan, they would have just done it at
>> the end of Infinite Crisis...
>
>Nah, Infinite Crisis set up the multiverse which allows them to do
>this.
...but it all could have been done right there if that was what they
wanted to do...there'd be no point in the "new earth" at the end of
Infinite Crisis if they were only going to do away with it.
>
>> in fact, I'd be surprised if any reality
>> altering happens in Final Crisis...if that were the "exact opposite"
>> Johns was talking about, I doubt he would have been allowed to spoil
>> it.
>
>True. Then again, DC seems to love spoilers ATM.
>
>> DC worked way to hard to put everyone on one earth...they won't undo
>> that now.
>
>They didn't really work that hard.
>
>They worked hard to try to fix the problems with them all coming from
>the one world. Then tried to fix the fixes. Then tried to fix those
>fixes...
>
>However, nothing's really fixed.
>
I think they finally have everything pretty well in hand...which isn't
to say I love all of their books at the moment but reality changes
aren't needed to fix that...just better writers and editors that
actually do their jobs.
Duggy
wrote:
> ...but it all could have been done right there if that was what they
> wanted to do...there'd be no point in the "new earth" at the end of
> Infinite Crisis if they were only going to do away with it.
New Earth is just a slightly cleaned up version of the Combined Earth
or Post-ZH Earth.
> >They worked hard to try to fix the problems with them all coming from
> >the one world. Then tried to fix the fixes. Then tried to fix those
> >fixes...
> >However, nothing's really fixed.
> I think they finally have everything pretty well in hand...
Really? Where does Power Girl come from?
According to the current history: the original Earth-2, but also, it
seems, the new 52verse Earth-2.
Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
Jason Todd should have survived, but a reality shift caused his death
in a different universe to happen, then the real version of him
appeared in the coffin. But he also came from a different universe,
according to the Monitors.
Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
Donna Troy... nah, not even going there.
> which isn't
> to say I love all of their books at the moment but reality changes
> aren't needed to fix that...just better writers and editors that
> actually do their jobs.
Fair call.
===
= DUG.
===
Bruce Grubb
Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> On Aug 13, 12:10 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
> > ...but it all could have been done right there if that was what they
> > wanted to do...there'd be no point in the "new earth" at the end of
> > Infinite Crisis if they were only going to do away with it.
>
> New Earth is just a slightly cleaned up version of the Combined Earth
> or Post-ZH Earth.
>
> > >They worked hard to try to fix the problems with them all coming from
> > >the one world. Then tried to fix the fixes. Then tried to fix those
> > >fixes...
> > >However, nothing's really fixed.
>
> > I think they finally have everything pretty well in hand...
>
> Really? Where does Power Girl come from?
>
> According to the current history: the original Earth-2, but also, it
> seems, the new 52verse Earth-2.
>
> Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>
> Jason Todd should have survived, but a reality shift caused his death
> in a different universe to happen, then the real version of him
> appeared in the coffin. But he also came from a different universe,
> according to the Monitors.
>
> Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>
> Donna Troy... nah, not even going there.
This is making the mess Post Crisis Hawkman and the LSH were look sane by
comparison.
Everytime I read something like this I cannot help of think of this scene
from Space Madness (Ren and Stimpy):
"Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons
him even closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate
history? At the MERE...PUSH...of a SINGLE...BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY
button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold
out?"
At which point Stimpy says 'No.' and pushes the blasted thing.
<http://ourworld.cs.com/WeezelX/rs/madness.html>
Only in DC's case it is more like this:
DC: ok that is a totally SNAFUed mess (hits reset button)
DC: uhhhh seems that FUBARed these characters and the rewrites are making
things worse (hits reset button again)
DC: Oh for crying out loud how did *that* get messed up?! (hits reset
button Yet Again)
Reader; Ok DC continuity is totally FUBARed and SNAFUed to the point I
don't know (third base) what is going on but hey it makes more sense than
Marvel's does.
> > which isn't
> > to say I love all of their books at the moment but reality changes
> > aren't needed to fix that...just better writers and editors that
> > actually do their jobs.
>
> Fair call.
Having some idea of character history would be a BIG help.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 13, 12:10 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> ...but it all could have been done right there if that was what they
>> wanted to do...there'd be no point in the "new earth" at the end of
>> Infinite Crisis if they were only going to do away with it.
>
>New Earth is just a slightly cleaned up version of the Combined Earth
>or Post-ZH Earth.
Exactly...if they wanted to do away with the combined earth then there
wouldn't have been any reason to "clean" it up.
>
>> >They worked hard to try to fix the problems with them all coming from
>> >the one world. Then tried to fix the fixes. Then tried to fix those
>> >fixes...
>> >However, nothing's really fixed.
>
>> I think they finally have everything pretty well in hand...
>
>Really? Where does Power Girl come from?
>
>According to the current history: the original Earth-2, but also, it
>seems, the new 52verse Earth-2.
>
>Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>
>Jason Todd should have survived, but a reality shift caused his death
>in a different universe to happen, then the real version of him
>appeared in the coffin. But he also came from a different universe,
>according to the Monitors.
>
>Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>
>Donna Troy... nah, not even going there.
It all seems pretty clear cut to me...these are holdovers from the
multiverse...and there are only a few (and most are now aware of their
origins)...it works out fine...and doing away with the combined earth
would fix none of these characters...Power Girl would still be from
E-2 (whether she's actually there or not) and Donna would still have a
dozen different origins...and Jason Todd STILL should have stayed
dead...multiverse or no.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Agreed...and that goes to having editors that do their jobs...Didio
has decided continuity and set origins limit creativity and are,
therefore, a no no...the mulitverse on further messes things up.
Duggy
> Agreed...and that goes to having editors that do their jobs...Didio
> has decided continuity and set origins limit creativity and are,
> therefore, a no no...the mulitverse on further messes things up.
They do mess with creativity and I think that a revamp every, say ten
years, is a good idea. Certainly a good thing for the creators.
However, it is a bad thing for the reader as they lose touch with the
character.
Since the reader is the one buying the product, I think their needs
have priority.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> Exactly...if they wanted to do away with the combined earth then there
> wouldn't have been any reason to "clean" it up.
The clean up is the McGuffin for the reintroduction of the multiverse.
> >Really? Where does Power Girl come from?
> >According to the current history: the original Earth-2, but also, it
> >seems, the new 52verse Earth-2.
> >Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
> >Jason Todd should have survived, but a reality shift caused his death
> >in a different universe to happen, then the real version of him
> >appeared in the coffin. But he also came from a different universe,
> >according to the Monitors.
> >Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
> >Donna Troy... nah, not even going there.
> It all seems pretty clear cut to me...these are holdovers from the
> multiverse...and there are only a few (and most are now aware of their
> origins)...it works out fine...
Except they come from the old multiverse (fair enough) but are implied
to come from the new multiverse... which didn't exist as having
different histories until 52 week 51.
> and doing away with the combined earth
> would fix none of these characters...Power Girl would still be from
> E-2 (whether she's actually there or not) and Donna would still have a
> dozen different origins...and Jason Todd STILL should have stayed
> dead...multiverse or no.
The new Earth-2 Power Girl can return to E-2 and not be connected to
the New Earth/Original Earth-2 Power Girl.
The Earth-1 Jason Todd would still be alive, and probably still be a
Dick Grayson clone.
The Earth-1 Donna Troy would still have her original origin (I think).
The Earth-22 Donna Troy would have whatever origin doesn't contradict
her appearence in Kingdom Come.
The Earth-1 Hawkman would have his own origin, as would the Earth-2 &
Earth-22 Hawkman.
The Earth-1 Green Lantern would be Alan, E-2 would be Hal, Earth-5
would be the new guy, E-8 would be Kyle.
The New Earth stuff would, happily be gone.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
I don't mind the occasional revamp (as long as it's not a full-on
reboot) but they need to clarify the changes when they do this or it's
just an excuse for writers to be lazy.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 14, 8:58 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Exactly...if they wanted to do away with the combined earth then there
>> wouldn't have been any reason to "clean" it up.
>
>The clean up is the McGuffin for the reintroduction of the multiverse.
I think you're reaching here.
>
>> >Really? Where does Power Girl come from?
>> >According to the current history: the original Earth-2, but also, it
>> >seems, the new 52verse Earth-2.
>> >Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>
>> >Jason Todd should have survived, but a reality shift caused his death
>> >in a different universe to happen, then the real version of him
>> >appeared in the coffin. But he also came from a different universe,
>> >according to the Monitors.
>> >Yeah. Glad *that*'s sorted.
>> >Donna Troy... nah, not even going there.
>
>> It all seems pretty clear cut to me...these are holdovers from the
>> multiverse...and there are only a few (and most are now aware of their
>> origins)...it works out fine...
>
>Except they come from the old multiverse (fair enough) but are implied
>to come from the new multiverse... which didn't exist as having
>different histories until 52 week 51.
This will likely be clarified during Countdown...but, even if it's
not, who cares? Does it really matter if they come from the old
multiverse of the new one?
>
>> and doing away with the combined earth
>> would fix none of these characters...Power Girl would still be from
>> E-2 (whether she's actually there or not) and Donna would still have a
>> dozen different origins...and Jason Todd STILL should have stayed
>> dead...multiverse or no.
>
>The new Earth-2 Power Girl can return to E-2 and not be connected to
>the New Earth/Original Earth-2 Power Girl.
>
>The Earth-1 Jason Todd would still be alive, and probably still be a
>Dick Grayson clone.
>
>The Earth-1 Donna Troy would still have her original origin (I think).
>
>The Earth-22 Donna Troy would have whatever origin doesn't contradict
>her appearence in Kingdom Come.
>
>The Earth-1 Hawkman would have his own origin, as would the Earth-2 &
>Earth-22 Hawkman.
>
>The Earth-1 Green Lantern would be Alan, E-2 would be Hal, Earth-5
>would be the new guy, E-8 would be Kyle.
>
How would any of this be better? I hated having everyone separated on
different earths. Power Girl wouldn't really be different no matter
which E-2 she comes from...Jason Todd as a Dick Grayson clone was
boring as hell and I can't imagine anyone wanting that back...after
all the work they put in to Donna's origin over the years (including
very recently), I can't see them tossing all that out and reverting to
form...and I, for one, hated having multiple versions of the same
character appearing regularly...it's redundant and uninteresting.
>The New Earth stuff would, happily be gone.
>
I think you are only one of a handful who would like that.
Incidentally, when did you start reading DC comics? I have yet to
meet anyone who started reading post-crisis that actually prefers the
old multiverse approach and people who are still reading since the
pre-crisis days are few and far between at this point and I really
can't see DC changing their entire structure to suit them.
Duggy
> >The clean up is the McGuffin for the reintroduction of the multiverse.
> I think you're reaching here.
When the multiverse was pathetically re-introduced during InfCrisis I
figured it would be cool to introduce them as living breathing
universes again. Each with it's own "line" of comics.
However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
the side ones would never take off. I also realised you couldn't
destory the main universe and force the new multiverse on people...
that trick never works.
However, if you introduce the multiverse slowly, over time, get people
used it it... then you can get rid of the main universe.
Since then everything has headed in that exact direction.
That is why I said at the end of InfCrisis that the multiverse was
back, because the hints make it clear where it is going.
You don't want to see it, so you can't.
> >Except they come from the old multiverse (fair enough) but are implied
> >to come from the new multiverse... which didn't exist as having
> >different histories until 52 week 51.
> This will likely be clarified during Countdown...
I hope so. And I hope that they do it in such a way that it actually
makes sense.
> but, even if it's
> not, who cares? Does it really matter if they come from the old
> multiverse of the new one?
For the character's history to make sense, of course.
Characters need origins that make sense.
> How would any of this be better?
I don't know if it would be better or not. Somethings would be, some
wouldn't.
However you stated that: "Power Girl would still be from E-2 (whether
she's actually there or not) and Donna would still have a dozen
different origins...and Jason Todd STILL should have stayed
dead...multiverse or no."
Which shows how little understanding you have of the concept.
> I hated having everyone separated on different earths.
That's nice.
> Power Girl wouldn't really be different no matter which E-2 she comes from...
But her history would.
>Jason Todd as a Dick Grayson clone was
> boring as hell and I can't imagine anyone wanting that back...
Agreed. I have a feeling that that's one of the changes that will
occur on Earth-1: Jason Todd will have his post-Crisis personality.
> after all the work they put in to Donna's origin over the years (including
> very recently), I can't see them tossing all that out and reverting to
> form...
Really? All the work to me feels like a horrible mess that need to be
fixed.
Some of the elements of it are nice and should appear on different
Earths, but mashed together... nah.
> and I, for one, hated having multiple versions of the same
> character appearing regularly...it's redundant and uninteresting.
To you, apparently.
> >The New Earth stuff would, happily be gone.
> I think you are only one of a handful who would like that.
I'm not saying that there isn't great New Earth stuff, but they've
fixed and fixed and fixed without ever actually fixing.
> Incidentally, when did you start reading DC comics?
Random comics as a kid. Nothing long term.
Solid collecting, 1991, I think.
> I have yet to
> meet anyone who started reading post-crisis that actually prefers the
> old multiverse approach
Really? Maybe it's only Australians who think that way. Because a
lot of my friends that read DC (many who we're born until 1982ish, so
wouldn't have read any Pre-Crisis stuff when it came out) feel
differently.
> and people who are still reading since the
> pre-crisis days are few and far between at this point and I really
> can't see DC changing their entire structure to suit them.
Now you're generalising based on you own opinions.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 15, 9:02 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >The clean up is the McGuffin for the reintroduction of the multiverse.
>> I think you're reaching here.
>
>When the multiverse was pathetically re-introduced during InfCrisis I
>figured it would be cool to introduce them as living breathing
>universes again. Each with it's own "line" of comics.
Why would they do this when, if that was what they wanted, they could
just do it now and have it both ways...if they truly wanted to start
up separate lines of books set in the multiverse, there is nothing
stopping them now and, if there truly is a call for that sort of thing
(which I honestly doubt), they would sell regardless of whether or not
comics continued to be published about the new earth...the two are not
mutually exclusive as you seem to think.
>
>However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
>the side ones would never take off. I also realised you couldn't
>destory the main universe and force the new multiverse on people...
>that trick never works.
>
>However, if you introduce the multiverse slowly, over time, get people
>used it it... then you can get rid of the main universe.
>
>Since then everything has headed in that exact direction.
Hardly...it's a big leap from exploring the new multiverse to doing
away with new earth where every book is currently set...and it's not
as if the multiverse is being dealt with in every book either...so
far, it's only been a handful...which makes your prediction pretty far
fetched.
>
>That is why I said at the end of InfCrisis that the multiverse was
>back, because the hints make it clear where it is going.
Yes, the hints were there that the multiverse was back...it was hardly
a surprise when that was revealed at the end of 52...but there have
been absolutely no hints anywhere that new earth is going away.
And, once again, if that were the direction things were headed, there
would have been absolutely no point whatsoever to the "new earth" at
the end of Infinite Crisis...the idea that this was all a mislead and
the last 20+ years of stories are about to be erased from continuity
all together is ridiculous.
>
>You don't want to see it, so you can't.
Or maybe it's that you are reading more into this than is there.
>
>> >Except they come from the old multiverse (fair enough) but are implied
>> >to come from the new multiverse... which didn't exist as having
>> >different histories until 52 week 51.
>> This will likely be clarified during Countdown...
>
>I hope so. And I hope that they do it in such a way that it actually
>makes sense.
>
>> but, even if it's
>> not, who cares? Does it really matter if they come from the old
>> multiverse of the new one?
>
>For the character's history to make sense, of course.
>
>Characters need origins that make sense.
On that we agree...but we don't need 52 different versions of each
character with distinct origins...it would be confusing and lame...and
lead to weak writing and editing...just like it did last
time...precrisis, there were huge continuity holes all the time and,
if a story didn't "make sense" (which seems to be important to you),
then it was just relegated to an alternate earth...often without even
an official explanation from DC...I'll pass on that, thank you.
>
>> How would any of this be better?
>
>I don't know if it would be better or not. Somethings would be, some
>wouldn't.
>
>However you stated that: "Power Girl would still be from E-2 (whether
>she's actually there or not) and Donna would still have a dozen
>different origins...and Jason Todd STILL should have stayed
>dead...multiverse or no."
>
>Which shows how little understanding you have of the concept.
I understand it perfectly...I just think it's lame...whether Power
Girl is from the new E-2 or the old one makes very little difference
at this point because, as far as we know, they are virtually identical
and, therefore, would not significantly affect her origin either
way...Donna Troy would still have a screwed up origin but it would now
be spread out over several different Donnas on several different
earths (which would further complicate matters rather than resolve
them)...and Jason Todd is not a particularly interesting character on
any earth (the interesting thing was the effect his death had on
others).
>
>> I hated having everyone separated on different earths.
>
>That's nice.
>
>> Power Girl wouldn't really be different no matter which E-2 she comes from...
>
>But her history would.
Not as far as we know.
>
>>Jason Todd as a Dick Grayson clone was
>> boring as hell and I can't imagine anyone wanting that back...
>
>Agreed. I have a feeling that that's one of the changes that will
>occur on Earth-1: Jason Todd will have his post-Crisis personality.
>
>> after all the work they put in to Donna's origin over the years (including
>> very recently), I can't see them tossing all that out and reverting to
>> form...
>
>Really? All the work to me feels like a horrible mess that need to be
>fixed.
And it has been fixed...as much as it can...she is the product of
several lifetimes and earths (which is how she has so many different
origins).
>
>Some of the elements of it are nice and should appear on different
>Earths, but mashed together... nah.
>
>> and I, for one, hated having multiple versions of the same
>> character appearing regularly...it's redundant and uninteresting.
>
>To you, apparently.
Apparently not just to me...or CoIE never would have happened to begin
with.
>
>> >The New Earth stuff would, happily be gone.
>> I think you are only one of a handful who would like that.
>
>I'm not saying that there isn't great New Earth stuff, but they've
>fixed and fixed and fixed without ever actually fixing.
To you, apparently.
>
>> Incidentally, when did you start reading DC comics?
>
>Random comics as a kid. Nothing long term.
>
>Solid collecting, 1991, I think.
>
>> I have yet to
>> meet anyone who started reading post-crisis that actually prefers the
>> old multiverse approach
>
>Really? Maybe it's only Australians who think that way. Because a
>lot of my friends that read DC (many who we're born until 1982ish, so
>wouldn't have read any Pre-Crisis stuff when it came out) feel
>differently.
Well, maybe it's a culture gap...because, of everyone I've talked
about this both online and in person (and it has come up quite a bit,
especially in the last couple years), you are now the only person I
know of who prefers the old multiverse who was not already reading
before 1985 and CoIE.
>
>> and people who are still reading since the
>> pre-crisis days are few and far between at this point and I really
>> can't see DC changing their entire structure to suit them.
>
>Now you're generalising based on you own opinions.
>
Hardly...I think it's a fair bet that there are relatively few readers
left who have been doing so regularly since the pre-crisis
days...that's nearly 25 years...and, if there really were such a great
call for a return to the old multiverse, the concentrated/all-in-one
earth wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.
After all, DC is a business...and they aren't going to continue doing
something that doesn't sell.
Duggy
wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:18:49 -0700, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>
> wrote:
> >When the multiverse was pathetically re-introduced during InfCrisis I
> >figured it would be cool to introduce them as living breathing
> >universes again. Each with it's own "line" of comics.
> Why would they do this when, if that was what they wanted, they could
> just do it now and have it both ways...
You replied before reading the whole post, right? Because I answered
that later.
> if they truly wanted to start
> up separate lines of books set in the multiverse, there is nothing
> stopping them now
"However, I quickly realised that with the 'main' Earth still around
the side ones would never take off."
> and, if there truly is a call for that sort of thing (which I honestly doubt),
Yes, you've made the way *you* feel very clear.
> they would sell regardless of whether or not
> comics continued to be published about the new earth...the two are not
> mutually exclusive as you seem to think.
Yes, to a extent they are. One line, like Ultimate you may get away
with, or limited things, like Elseworlds or All Stars you can do.
But you can't do a bunch of Earth-1 comics and a bunch of Earth-6
comics.
Please read:
> >However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
> >the side ones would never take off.
> >Since then everything has headed in that exact direction.
> Hardly...it's a big leap from exploring the new multiverse to doing
> away with new earth where every book is currently set...
True.
But creating the new universe is a step. Exploring it is a step.
Slash and burning everything on New Earth is a step. Calling
something Final Crisis is a hint.
> and it's not
> as if the multiverse is being dealt with in every book either...so
> far, it's only been a handful...which makes your prediction pretty far
> fetched.
Countdown to Final Crisis, Booster Gold, Countdown Presents The Search
for Ray Palmer, Countdown to Adventure, Captain Carrot & the Final
Ark, Ion, The Sinestro Corps War, Supergirl, Justice League America,
Justice Society America... that's more than a handful. And those are
the ones that are obvious... who know how many are related that we
don't know about.
> >That is why I said at the end of InfCrisis that the multiverse was
> >back, because the hints make it clear where it is going.
> Yes, the hints were there that the multiverse was back...it was hardly
> a surprise when that was revealed at the end of 52...but there have
> been absolutely no hints anywhere that new earth is going away.
Yes. There are. Final Crisis. Claims that all creation may be
destroyed, particularly the walls to New Earth being damaged,
foreshadowing that New Earth can't be destoryed or the whole universe
will be.
> And, once again, if that were the direction things were headed, there
> would have been absolutely no point whatsoever to the "new earth" at
> the end of Infinite Crisis...
There's every point to the New Earth at the end of Inf Crisis.
If there was nothing there people would wonder why InfCrisis happened.
It's the red herring.
> the idea that this was all a mislead and
> the last 20+ years of stories are about to be erased from continuity
> all together is ridiculous.
Stranger things happen at sea. More than 20 years have been erased
before with even less build up.
> >You don't want to see it, so you can't.
> Or maybe it's that you are reading more into this than is there.
Maybe. But I'm willing to look at option. I'm not pretending they
aren't there.
> On that we agree...but we don't need 52 different versions of each
> character with distinct origins...
There doesn't need to be.
Earth-50 doesn't.
> it would be confusing and lame...
Confusing how?
Stick a "Earth-1" label on Superman, an "Earth-2" label on Action
Comics and tell the two separate Superman stories.
What's hard to understand?
> and lead to weak writing and editing...
Explain how?
And explain how the editing and writing would be weaker than now?
> just like it did last time... precrisis, there were huge continuity holes all the time
Name them.
> if a story didn't "make sense" (which seems to be important to you),
I hope it's important to everyone.
> then it was just relegated to an alternate earth...often without even
> an official explanation from DC...
Earth-B was a dumping ground editorially, but not officially, sure,
but it was never official policy.
Yes, Earth-2 was created to explain the differences between the Gold
and Silver Age. It was a great idea, but pretty much a one off.
We're talking about 52 pretty much prescribed universes. No mention
of dumping grounds and no reason to believe it would happen.
> I'll pass on that, thank you.
So would I. Luckly there's no reason to believe it would happen.
Any more than it already has.
> >Which shows how little understanding you have of the concept.
> I understand it perfectly...I just think it's lame...whether Power
> Girl is from the new E-2 or the old one makes very little difference
> at this point because, as far as we know, they are virtually identical
> and, therefore, would not significantly affect her origin either
> way...
No, but it's important to the origin of the multiverse.
Important plot point in Countdown: The Source Wall is being damaged by
travel through it.
If Power Girl comes from the original Earth-2 she never travelled
through the source wall and is therefore not an anomally. She is part
of New Earth.
If she comes from the 52verse Earth-2, she travelled through the wall
to get her and is part of the problem.
> Donna Troy would still have a screwed up origin but it would now
> be spread out over several different Donnas on several different
> earths (which would further complicate matters rather than resolve
> them)...
How so?
On Earth-1 she was Diana's childhood playfriend.
On Earth-17 she was saved by the Titans of Myth.
How is that confusing?
> and Jason Todd is not a particularly interesting character on
> any earth (the interesting thing was the effect his death had on
> others).
Agreed. The effect his death had on him wasn't interesting though.
> >Really? All the work to me feels like a horrible mess that need to be
> >fixed.
> And it has been fixed...as much as it can...
Exactly.
> she is the product of
> several lifetimes and earths (which is how she has so many different
> origins).
Yeah. Great.
> >To you, apparently.
> Apparently not just to me...or CoIE never would have happened to begin
> with.
You know that that version has been pretty much debunked by comic book
historians, right? That, although there was one letter of complaint,
it was not connected to DC's plans to get rid of the multiverse? You
have heard that, yeah?
> >I'm not saying that there isn't great New Earth stuff, but they've
> >fixed and fixed and fixed without ever actually fixing.
> To you, apparently.
Origins as murky as Hawkman's aren't fixed. They are place-holders
for the next attempt to fix things.
> >> I have yet to
> >> meet anyone who started reading post-crisis that actually prefers the
> >> old multiverse approach
> >Really? Maybe it's only Australians who think that way. Because a
> >lot of my friends that read DC (many who we're born until 1982ish, so
> >wouldn't have read any Pre-Crisis stuff when it came out) feel
> >differently.
> Well, maybe it's a culture gap...because, of everyone I've talked
> about this both online and in person (and it has come up quite a bit,
> especially in the last couple years), you are now the only person I
> know of who prefers the old multiverse who was not already reading
> before 1985 and CoIE.
> Hardly...I think it's a fair bet that there are relatively few readers
> left who have been doing so regularly since the pre-crisis
> days...that's nearly 25 years...
Agreed. But to say that everyone who started reading since has no
interest in the multiverse is generalisation, that isn't true in my
case, or any of my friends.
> and, if there really were such a great
> call for a return to the old multiverse, the concentrated/all-in-one
> earth wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.
You mean the one that was replaced by Hypertime in about 1997? Or
that had pocket universe and alternate timelines spring up way, way
before then?
> After all, DC is a business...and they aren't going to continue doing
> something that doesn't sell.
A single timeline sells. There's nothing to say that a multiverse
won't sell better except your guess based on a unrepresentative
sample.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> I don't mind the occasional revamp (as long as it's not a full-on
> reboot) but they need to clarify the changes when they do this or it's
> just an excuse for writers to be lazy.
Yes and no.
Revamps need detailed histories, sure.
There's nothing more annoying than a a revamp with a silent past
(which annoys me about InfCrisis)
However, at the same time, you can't make every issue "History of..."
or it's practically a reboot.
Also, look at post-InfCrisis... the number of writers who didn't last
a year is staggering... do you want these write-and-runners
determining the history of the characters for the next 10 years.
An open history of the character does allow good new writers to fill
in gaps with better stories than leaving it up to someone who doesn't
really care being forced to do it.
I agree with you, I really do. The problem is it's one of those
damned if you do damned if you don't things.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 15, 8:50 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> I don't mind the occasional revamp (as long as it's not a full-on
>> reboot) but they need to clarify the changes when they do this or it's
>> just an excuse for writers to be lazy.
>
>Yes and no.
>
>Revamps need detailed histories, sure.
>
>There's nothing more annoying than a a revamp with a silent past
>(which annoys me about InfCrisis)
On this we agree.
>
>However, at the same time, you can't make every issue "History of..."
>or it's practically a reboot.
>
>Also, look at post-InfCrisis... the number of writers who didn't last
>a year is staggering... do you want these write-and-runners
>determining the history of the characters for the next 10 years.
No...but, if DC feels the need to change continuity in this fashion,
then there should be a plan for the changes in place (at least the
broad-strokes) going into it...which there clearly wasn't in the case
of Infinite Crisis...that last bit in Infinite Crisis about "new
earth" was pretty much just an afterthought to make continuity murky
so the new writers wouldn't have to deal with it...which is a huge
cop-out. I really liked Infinite Crisis (reality punches not
withstanding) but this really bugs me and has thrown many of the OYL
books off track.
>
>An open history of the character does allow good new writers to fill
>in gaps with better stories than leaving it up to someone who doesn't
>really care being forced to do it.
The problem with this is that the editors are asleep at the switch so
there is no one to hold the next writer to the changes the good writer
makes...it's chaos...and not the good kind.
>
>I agree with you, I really do. The problem is it's one of those
>damned if you do damned if you don't things.
>
I really don't see the need to constantly retool origins like
this...when they find something good, they should just stick with it
instead of constantly trying to top it...some actually need
fixing...others, like Green Arrow currently, really don't.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 15, 12:50 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:18:49 -0700, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>
>> wrote:
>> >When the multiverse was pathetically re-introduced during InfCrisis I
>> >figured it would be cool to introduce them as living breathing
>> >universes again. Each with it's own "line" of comics.
>> Why would they do this when, if that was what they wanted, they could
>> just do it now and have it both ways...
>
>You replied before reading the whole post, right? Because I answered
>that later.
I read your whole post...I just didn't buy your explanation.
>
>> if they truly wanted to start
>> up separate lines of books set in the multiverse, there is nothing
>> stopping them now
>
>"However, I quickly realised that with the 'main' Earth still around
>the side ones would never take off."
If that's true then there can't be much interest, can there?
>
>> and, if there truly is a call for that sort of thing (which I honestly doubt),
>
>Yes, you've made the way *you* feel very clear.
>
>> they would sell regardless of whether or not
>> comics continued to be published about the new earth...the two are not
>> mutually exclusive as you seem to think.
>
>Yes, to a extent they are. One line, like Ultimate you may get away
>with, or limited things, like Elseworlds or All Stars you can do.
>
>But you can't do a bunch of Earth-1 comics and a bunch of Earth-6
>comics.
>
>Please read:
>> >However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
>> >the side ones would never take off.
Why not? What's stopping them? If people really want to see this
then they will sell...you are basically saying the only way your idea
can work is to force it on everyone and remove any alternative...under
those conditions, even if the books were successful, it wouldn't mean
people genuinely liked them...only that they settled for it rather
than dumping DC all together...it would prove nothing.
>
>> >Since then everything has headed in that exact direction.
>> Hardly...it's a big leap from exploring the new multiverse to doing
>> away with new earth where every book is currently set...
>
>True.
>
>But creating the new universe is a step. Exploring it is a step.
Yes, a step to restoring the multiverse as a useable plot
device...that's a long way from desolving the combined earth.
>Slash and burning everything on New Earth is a step.
How are they doing this anymore now than they have been all along?
This is the age of the "shock and awe" writer...death and destruction
is the order of the day...if you think that would change if new earth
went away, you're dreaming.
Calling
>something Final Crisis is a hint.
"Final" could mean anything at this point...it could just be a promise
to fans who are sick of one crisis after another that there won't be
anymore (though I'll believe that when I see it)...by your logic,
"Infinite" Crisis was a hint at the return of the multiverse, I
suppose...which is possible (though it could just as easily have been
dreamed up as a simple play on CoIE) but, to me, "Final" could just as
easily hint that the Multiverse will go away again...I doubt it but
it's every bit as viable a theory as yours.
>
>> and it's not
>> as if the multiverse is being dealt with in every book either...so
>> far, it's only been a handful...which makes your prediction pretty far
>> fetched.
>
>Countdown to Final Crisis, Booster Gold, Countdown Presents The Search
>for Ray Palmer, Countdown to Adventure, Captain Carrot & the Final
>Ark, Ion, The Sinestro Corps War, Supergirl, Justice League America,
>Justice Society America... that's more than a handful. And those are
>the ones that are obvious... who know how many are related that we
>don't know about.
Fair enough...but there are also a great deal that, as far as we know,
have nothing to do with it...all the solo Batman books as well as the
Batman family books (Nightwing, Robin, Birds of Prey, etc.), Amazons
Attack, Wonder Woman, Outsiders, Checkmate, Supergirl (which actually
has nothing to do with the multiverse as far as I can
remember...Supergirl and the Legion, on the otherhand, could be
argued), Teen Titans, Hawkgirl, Aquaman, for example...and, actually,
Booster Gold is about fixing the inconsistencies of new earth...the
removal of which would erase that series' reason for being.
>
>> >That is why I said at the end of InfCrisis that the multiverse was
>> >back, because the hints make it clear where it is going.
>> Yes, the hints were there that the multiverse was back...it was hardly
>> a surprise when that was revealed at the end of 52...but there have
>> been absolutely no hints anywhere that new earth is going away.
>
>Yes. There are. Final Crisis. Claims that all creation may be
>destroyed, particularly the walls to New Earth being damaged,
>foreshadowing that New Earth can't be destoryed or the whole universe
>will be.
Those same "claims" are made for each crisis...it just means something
big will happen...it could be foreshadowing anything at this point.
>
>> And, once again, if that were the direction things were headed, there
>> would have been absolutely no point whatsoever to the "new earth" at
>> the end of Infinite Crisis...
>
>There's every point to the New Earth at the end of Inf Crisis.
>
>If there was nothing there people would wonder why InfCrisis happened.
>
>It's the red herring.
OK...here's a theory...maybe the reintroduction of the multiverse is
the red herring and, as I said above, it will go away again in Final
Crisis...there is just as much evidence to support this as your
theory.
>
>> the idea that this was all a mislead and
>> the last 20+ years of stories are about to be erased from continuity
>> all together is ridiculous.
>
>Stranger things happen at sea. More than 20 years have been erased
>before with even less build up.
Not across the board like this...even CoIE didn't completely remove
all pre-crisis stories from cannon...much, if not most, of the stories
of the last 2 decades could not have happened outside the combined
earth...for example, virtually any team story would have to go because
there have been very few team line-ups that didn't include characters
who would be on different earths.
>
>> >You don't want to see it, so you can't.
>> Or maybe it's that you are reading more into this than is there.
>
>Maybe. But I'm willing to look at option. I'm not pretending they
>aren't there.
No, you're just wildly speculating as to there meaning.
>
>> On that we agree...but we don't need 52 different versions of each
>> character with distinct origins...
>
>There doesn't need to be.
>
>Earth-50 doesn't.
>
>> it would be confusing and lame...
>
>Confusing how?
>
>Stick a "Earth-1" label on Superman, an "Earth-2" label on Action
>Comics and tell the two separate Superman stories.
>
>What's hard to understand?
You really think the average guy on the street who looks at a DC's
books but has no knowledge of the multiverse is going to understand
what the hell is going on without including an explanation in every
book. Could he figure it out after a while? Sure. Would he bother?
Doubtful.
>
>> and lead to weak writing and editing...
>
>Explain how?
Just as before CoIE, continuity would fly out the window...there would
be no need to bother with it as you could just say it was on a
different earth if it didn't match up.
>
>And explain how the editing and writing would be weaker than now?
There are still quite a few good books coming out...if they all sucked
then no one would read them and we wouldn't be having this
conversation.
>
>> just like it did last time... precrisis, there were huge continuity holes all the time
>
>Name them.
OK...for a few...the Batman/Wildcat stories from Brave & the Bold, the
Super Sons stories from World's Finest, the mess that was Black Canary
>
>> if a story didn't "make sense" (which seems to be important to you),
>
>I hope it's important to everyone.
I hope so too but I was just pointing out that you bring it up a lot.
>
>> then it was just relegated to an alternate earth...often without even
>> an official explanation from DC...
>
>Earth-B was a dumping ground editorially, but not officially, sure,
>but it was never official policy.
Making official didn't happen and, with all the problems we already
have now, you you honestly think it wouldn't happen again?
>
>Yes, Earth-2 was created to explain the differences between the Gold
>and Silver Age. It was a great idea, but pretty much a one off.
>
>We're talking about 52 pretty much prescribed universes. No mention
>of dumping grounds and no reason to believe it would happen.
You think going back to the multiverse will automatically mean better
writers and editors...riiight.
>
>> I'll pass on that, thank you.
>
>So would I. Luckly there's no reason to believe it would happen.
>
>Any more than it already has.
>
>> >Which shows how little understanding you have of the concept.
>> I understand it perfectly...I just think it's lame...whether Power
>> Girl is from the new E-2 or the old one makes very little difference
>> at this point because, as far as we know, they are virtually identical
>> and, therefore, would not significantly affect her origin either
>> way...
>
>No, but it's important to the origin of the multiverse.
>
>Important plot point in Countdown: The Source Wall is being damaged by
>travel through it.
>
>If Power Girl comes from the original Earth-2 she never travelled
>through the source wall and is therefore not an anomally. She is part
>of New Earth.
>
>If she comes from the 52verse Earth-2, she travelled through the wall
>to get her and is part of the problem.
Well, since the Monitors seem to be leaving her alone, that's
unlikely.
>
>> Donna Troy would still have a screwed up origin but it would now
>> be spread out over several different Donnas on several different
>> earths (which would further complicate matters rather than resolve
>> them)...
>
>How so?
It wouldn't resolve anything...we'd just have several Donnas who are
essentially the same character with different origins...this seems
pointless to me.
>
>On Earth-1 she was Diana's childhood playfriend.
>
>On Earth-17 she was saved by the Titans of Myth.
>
>How is that confusing?
How is it any less confusing than, due to a cosmic snafu, all those
Donnas are merged into one single character? What is the benefit of
multiple Donnas where, dispite differences in origin, the end result
is the same?
>
>> and Jason Todd is not a particularly interesting character on
>> any earth (the interesting thing was the effect his death had on
>> others).
>
>Agreed. The effect his death had on him wasn't interesting though.
>
>> >Really? All the work to me feels like a horrible mess that need to be
>> >fixed.
>> And it has been fixed...as much as it can...
>
>Exactly.
>
>> she is the product of
>> several lifetimes and earths (which is how she has so many different
>> origins).
>
>Yeah. Great.
Again, it beats the hell out of multiple Donnas that are identical in
everyway in everything but origin.
>
>> >To you, apparently.
>> Apparently not just to me...or CoIE never would have happened to begin
>> with.
>
>You know that that version has been pretty much debunked by comic book
>historians, right? That, although there was one letter of complaint,
>it was not connected to DC's plans to get rid of the multiverse? You
>have heard that, yeah?
I have heard varying versions of this...but, at the very least, the
people in charge of DC thought it was a good idea (and I'd still wager
there was more than one complaint)...and, last time I checked, that
wasn't me...especially since I was only 4 at the time.
>
>> >I'm not saying that there isn't great New Earth stuff, but they've
>> >fixed and fixed and fixed without ever actually fixing.
>> To you, apparently.
>
>Origins as murky as Hawkman's aren't fixed. They are place-holders
>for the next attempt to fix things.
I don't understand why eveyone is so down on Hawkman...if you can
understand multiple versions of the character on multiple earths, what
is so damn difficult about one version that combines the best of every
version?
>
>> >> I have yet to
>> >> meet anyone who started reading post-crisis that actually prefers the
>> >> old multiverse approach
>> >Really? Maybe it's only Australians who think that way. Because a
>> >lot of my friends that read DC (many who we're born until 1982ish, so
>> >wouldn't have read any Pre-Crisis stuff when it came out) feel
>> >differently.
>> Well, maybe it's a culture gap...because, of everyone I've talked
>> about this both online and in person (and it has come up quite a bit,
>> especially in the last couple years), you are now the only person I
>> know of who prefers the old multiverse who was not already reading
>> before 1985 and CoIE.
>
>> Hardly...I think it's a fair bet that there are relatively few readers
>> left who have been doing so regularly since the pre-crisis
>> days...that's nearly 25 years...
>
>Agreed. But to say that everyone who started reading since has no
>interest in the multiverse is generalisation, that isn't true in my
>case, or any of my friends.
I never meant no one who started reading post-crisis had an interest
in the multiverse...just that, in my experience, these readers don't
want it to replace the current, combined earth...and I freely admitted
you were an exception and even that there might be a culture gap if
you and your friends are Australian (I am American, by the way)...but
you are correct that I was making a generalization based on my own
experience.
>
>> and, if there really were such a great
>> call for a return to the old multiverse, the concentrated/all-in-one
>> earth wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.
>
>You mean the one that was replaced by Hypertime in about 1997? Or
>that had pocket universe and alternate timelines spring up way, way
>before then?
And when exactly during any of those storylines did the the
concentrated earth go away? I didn't mean they hadn't revisited the
multiverse...but the all-in-one earth never went anywhere when they
did...including now.
>
>> After all, DC is a business...and they aren't going to continue doing
>> something that doesn't sell.
>
>A single timeline sells. There's nothing to say that a multiverse
>won't sell better except your guess based on a unrepresentative
>sample.
>
Fair enough...but what evidence is there that the multiverse WOULD
sell any better other than YOUR guess "based on an unrepresentative
sample?"
Duggy
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:20:53 -0700, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>
> wrote:
> >Revamps need detailed histories, sure.
> >There's nothing more annoying than a a revamp with a silent past
> >(which annoys me about InfCrisis)
> On this we agree.
On a number of things.
> No...but, if DC feels the need to change continuity in this fashion,
> then there should be a plan for the changes in place (at least the
> broad-strokes) going into it...
And how would you do this?
The obvious thing with InfiCrisis was to not do the One Year Later
thing. Probably do a 52 part weekly "History of the DCU" instead of
52.
A revamp with a silent past and a missing year was a miss-step.
The other thing that comes to mind is a, say, 6 month "History of..."
each character... But that's prohibitative for stories. And can't
cover everything, and runs into the problem of one person being forced
to write things and stopping someone with real ideas later.
Another is, say, a back up for the first year in each comic.
But none of these things solve the problem.
> >An open history of the character does allow good new writers to fill
> >in gaps with better stories than leaving it up to someone who doesn't
> >really care being forced to do it.
> The problem with this is that the editors are asleep at the switch so
> there is no one to hold the next writer to the changes the good writer
> makes...it's chaos...and not the good kind.
What if the first writer is a bad writer?
What if every Wonder Woman writer was tied to a Jodi-What'shername
history of Wondy for 10 years?
> >I agree with you, I really do. The problem is it's one of those
> >damned if you do damned if you don't things.
> I really don't see the need to constantly retool origins like
> this...when they find something good, they should just stick with it
> instead of constantly trying to top it...some actually need
> fixing...others, like Green Arrow currently, really don't.
Yeah, but that's all opinion, really, isn't it?
I mean, something that you think is perfect, I may see as unfinished.
And no writer is writing something thinking they are doing a worse
job. They always think they are improving. And the editors must
agree or they won't go along.
===
= DUG.
===
Lilith
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Calling
>>something Final Crisis is a hint.
>"Final" could mean anything at this point...it could just be a promise
>to fans who are sick of one crisis after another that there won't be
>anymore (though I'll believe that when I see it)...by your logic,
>"Infinite" Crisis was a hint at the return of the multiverse, I
>suppose...which is possible (though it could just as easily have been
>dreamed up as a simple play on CoIE) but, to me, "Final" could just as
>easily hint that the Multiverse will go away again...I doubt it but
>it's every bit as viable a theory as yours.
In twenty years they'll probably have "Penultimate Crisis," which
would leave room for "Ultimate Crisis" in another twenty years. By
that time most of those who remember CoIE will have passed away or
have lost their reading glasses and their cognitive powers, so they
can start Crisis all over again, assuming anyone at DC remembers or
the records have survived the real world cataclysm that almost
destroys mankind.
--
Lilith
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 16, 1:08 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:20:53 -0700, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au>
>> wrote:
>> >Revamps need detailed histories, sure.
>> >There's nothing more annoying than a a revamp with a silent past
>> >(which annoys me about InfCrisis)
>> On this we agree.
>
>On a number of things.
>
>> No...but, if DC feels the need to change continuity in this fashion,
>> then there should be a plan for the changes in place (at least the
>> broad-strokes) going into it...
>
>And how would you do this?
>
>The obvious thing with InfiCrisis was to not do the One Year Later
>thing. Probably do a 52 part weekly "History of the DCU" instead of
>52.
>
>A revamp with a silent past and a missing year was a miss-step.
>
>The other thing that comes to mind is a, say, 6 month "History of..."
>each character... But that's prohibitative for stories. And can't
>cover everything, and runs into the problem of one person being forced
>to write things and stopping someone with real ideas later.
>
>Another is, say, a back up for the first year in each comic.
>
>But none of these things solve the problem.
Agreed...they either should have done the OYL jump OR the "new earth"
bit...not both at the same time...it might have worked out better if
52 had, as originally intended, actually filled in the missing year
rather than just following a handful of C-listers around (not that I
didn't like that approach...it just wasn't what was needed at the
time).
>
>> >An open history of the character does allow good new writers to fill
>> >in gaps with better stories than leaving it up to someone who doesn't
>> >really care being forced to do it.
>> The problem with this is that the editors are asleep at the switch so
>> there is no one to hold the next writer to the changes the good writer
>> makes...it's chaos...and not the good kind.
>
>What if the first writer is a bad writer?
>
>What if every Wonder Woman writer was tied to a Jodi-What'shername
>history of Wondy for 10 years?
Whether or not the first writer is a good writer would become quickly
obvious from fan reaction, if nothing else...and aren't you the one
arguing in another thread about the importance of a clearly defined
origin.
>
>> >I agree with you, I really do. The problem is it's one of those
>> >damned if you do damned if you don't things.
>> I really don't see the need to constantly retool origins like
>> this...when they find something good, they should just stick with it
>> instead of constantly trying to top it...some actually need
>> fixing...others, like Green Arrow currently, really don't.
>
>Yeah, but that's all opinion, really, isn't it?
That's all any of this is...our opinions.
>
>I mean, something that you think is perfect, I may see as unfinished.
>
>And no writer is writing something thinking they are doing a worse
>job. They always think they are improving. And the editors must
>agree or they won't go along.
I find that hard to believe...there are some writers (like Chuck
Austen, and even Frank Miller these days) that are so spectacularly
bad that they must be doing it on purpose for some unknown reason.
Duggy
> >> if they truly wanted to start
> >> up separate lines of books set in the multiverse, there is nothing
> >> stopping them now
> >"However, I quickly realised that with the 'main' Earth still around
> >the side ones would never take off."
> If that's true then there can't be much interest, can there?
They would be considered "Elseworlds" or unimportant. By doing
Countdown and making them part of the event the stories set on other
Earths now have heat.
But a small number, mostly one-shots.
> >Please read:
> >> >However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
> >> >the side ones would never take off.
> Why not? What's stopping them?
The entrenched belief that they are not "really" and only the main
line accounts for anything.
> If people really want to see this then they will sell...
No. Things don't just sell. Things have to presented in the correct
way before they will sell.
> you are basically saying the only way your idea
> can work is to force it on everyone and remove any alternative...
Give people alternatives and they will usually make the safe choice.
As such, people will buy New Earth stuff rather than other world
stuff.
However, once the New Earth option is taken away, there is potential
for higher sales all round.
> under
> those conditions, even if the books were successful, it wouldn't mean
> people genuinely liked them...only that they settled for it rather
> than dumping DC all together...it would prove nothing.
It would lead to the possibility of increased sales and more stable
continuities.
> >But creating the new universe is a step. Exploring it is a step.
> Yes, a step to restoring the multiverse as a useable plot
> device...that's a long way from desolving the combined earth.
Agreed. But it's a step towards it.
> >Slash and burning everything on New Earth is a step.
> How are they doing this anymore now than they have been all along?
> This is the age of the "shock and awe" writer...death and destruction
> is the order of the day...
The destruction of New York and the beginning of The Great Disaster is
par for the course? I think not.
> if you think that would change if new earth went away, you're dreaming.
No. But, some of these things can be more fully explored.
In another thread we're discussing the death/retirement of Batman and
the fact that Dick wouldn't take on the role.
It's a moot point because DC can't kill the New Earth Batman. They
cannot do it.
However, on Earth-2 it's already happened.
> >something Final Crisis is a hint.
> "Final" could mean anything at this point...it could just be a promise
> to fans who are sick of one crisis after another that there won't be
> anymore (though I'll believe that when I see it)...
I didn't say it was proof, I said it was a hint.
> Fair enough...but there are also a great deal that, as far as we know,
> have nothing to do with it...
Agreed. Not every comic has to be set on another Earth, though. A
lot are, or include characters that are from another Earth. Not every
title tied into Infinite Crisis directly. Doesn't mean Infinite
Crisis didn't happen.
> Booster Gold is about fixing the inconsistencies of new earth...the
> removal of which would erase that series' reason for being.
It could move on to Booster exploring the multiverse, visiting Earth-6
and making a new old friend.
> Not across the board like this...even CoIE didn't completely remove
> all pre-crisis stories from cannon...
Which was what caused most of the Post-Crisis problems.
> much, if not most, of the stories
> of the last 2 decades could not have happened outside the combined
> earth...
Agreed.
> >Maybe. But I'm willing to look at option. I'm not pretending they
> >aren't there.
> No, you're just wildly speculating as to there meaning.
Yes. Welcome to rec.arts.comics.dc.universe.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> >Comics and tell the two separate Superman stories.
> >What's hard to understand?
> You really think the average guy on the street who looks at a DC's
> books but has no knowledge of the multiverse is going to understand
> what the hell is going on without including an explanation in every
> book.
The average guy is going to pick up an issue of [Earth-1] Superman and
read it, and think it is a story about Superman.
Or he will pick up a copy of [Earth-2] Action Comics, read it and
think it is a story about Superman.
It is only people picking up multiple comics over a period where
becomes an issue. And in that case:
> Could he figure it out after a while? Sure.
> Would he bother?
He wouldn't have to.
> >> and lead to weak writing and editing...
> >Explain how?
> Just as before CoIE, continuity would fly out the window...there would
> be no need to bother with it as you could just say it was on a
> different earth if it didn't match up.
You can't do that with an Earth-2 label.
You're inventing problems.
> >And explain how the editing and writing would be weaker than now?
> There are still quite a few good books coming out...if they all sucked
> then no one would read them and we wouldn't be having this
> conversation.
Agreed.
Now, back to the point: please explain you claim that having multiple
universes would make the writing and editing worse.
> >Name them.
> OK...for a few...the Batman/Wildcat stories from Brave & the Bold,
B&B we discused.
> Super Sons stories from World's Finest,
And how do they related to current things being shunted?
> the mess that was Black Canary
What mess?
> >> if a story didn't "make sense" (which seems to be important to you),
> >I hope it's important to everyone.
> I hope so too but I was just pointing out that you bring it up a lot.
No more than others
> Making official didn't happen and, with all the problems we already
> have now, you you honestly think it wouldn't happen again?
Yes.
Why do you think otherwise?
> You think going back to the multiverse will automatically mean better
> writers and editors...riiight.
No. I made no such claims. You're the one claiming that a multiverse
will make them worse.
> >No, but it's important to the origin of the multiverse.
> >Important plot point in Countdown: The Source Wall is being damaged by
> >travel through it.
> >If Power Girl comes from the original Earth-2 she never travelled
> >through the source wall and is therefore not an anomally. She is part
> >of New Earth.
> >If she comes from the 52verse Earth-2, she travelled through the wall
> >to get her and is part of the problem.
> Well, since the Monitors seem to be leaving her alone, that's
> unlikely.
Right. So now 52 week 51 has a dangling reference to another Power
Girl missing from (the new) Earth-2.
See. The beginnings of a mess.
> >How so?
> It wouldn't resolve anything...we'd just have several Donnas who are
> essentially the same character with different origins...this seems
> pointless to me.
It allows writers to explore different aspects and versions of the
character within the context of ongoing stories.
> >On Earth-1 she was Diana's childhood playfriend.
> >On Earth-17 she was saved by the Titans of Myth.
> >How is that confusing?
> How is it any less confusing than, due to a cosmic snafu, all those
> Donnas are merged into one single character?
All a person reading [Earth-1] Wonder Woman needs know about Donna is
she was created as Wonder Woman's childhood friend.
All a person reading [Earth-17] Titans needs to know is she was raised
by The Titans of Myth.
A person reading [New Earth] Challengers of the Beyond needs to know
that there was a girl raised as Wonder Woman's friend on one universe
which was destroyed and then there was another where the same girl was
raised by the Titans of Myth and there was a whole bunch of other ones
and then she was recreated using Wally's memories of her then she died
and came back, but she was another universe's version of her but had
all the memories of the others although in the current universe none
of those things really happened.
You're right. Far less confusing.
> What is the benefit of
> multiple Donnas where, dispite differences in origin, the end result
> is the same?
No. The end result is completely different. My way they are
different people. You way she is one person with multiple
personalities.
> Again, it beats the hell out of multiple Donnas that are identical in
> everyway in everything but origin.
Riight.
> >You know that that version has been pretty much debunked by comic book
> >historians, right? That, although there was one letter of complaint,
> >it was not connected to DC's plans to get rid of the multiverse? You
> >have heard that, yeah?
> I have heard varying versions of this...but, at the very least, the
> people in charge of DC thought it was a good idea (and I'd still wager
> there was more than one complaint)...and, last time I checked, that
> wasn't me...especially since I was only 4 at the time.
The people at DC thought it was a good idea. The people at DC think
that bringing it back is a good idea. There you go.
The unreperesentative polls shows that those who were reading back
then prefer the multiverse.
> I don't understand why eveyone is so down on Hawkman...if you can
> understand multiple versions of the character on multiple earths, what
> is so damn difficult about one version that combines the best of every
> version?
Because the concept of different people is easy to understand.
And we've seen enough TV shows, movies, comics that show different
versions of Bond, Superman and Sherlock Holmes to understand that
there can be different people.
Because SF has an ongoing history of multiple universes. Sliders,
Star Trek, Charlie Jade, The One, &c.
However, outside mental health professions there is little experience
of people with multiple personalities.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 16, 2:54 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> if they truly wanted to start
>> >> up separate lines of books set in the multiverse, there is nothing
>> >> stopping them now
>> >"However, I quickly realised that with the 'main' Earth still around
>> >the side ones would never take off."
>> If that's true then there can't be much interest, can there?
>
>They would be considered "Elseworlds" or unimportant. By doing
>Countdown and making them part of the event the stories set on other
>Earths now have heat.
>
>But a small number, mostly one-shots.
Ever hear of Kingdom Come or New Frontier? They were Elseworlds
stories and they did very well, as I recall.
>
>> >Please read:
>> >> >However, I quickly realised that with the "main" Earth still around
>> >> >the side ones would never take off.
>> Why not? What's stopping them?
>
>The entrenched belief that they are not "really" and only the main
>line accounts for anything.
The only way this would apply is if DC actually treated them as
secondary...they could just as easily do them as completely
independent lines and they could be successful if anyone actually
wanted them...look at All-Star or Marvel's Ultimate line...you don't
have to do away with one to have success with another.
>
>> If people really want to see this then they will sell...
>
>No. Things don't just sell. Things have to presented in the correct
>way before they will sell.
Yes...and all it would take is for DC to put some A-list talent on
those books to get them attention...from there it would all be about
the strength of the books themselves...if the interest is there then
it would work...personally, I think it would flood the market and
probably be a huge flop...but that's just me.
>
>> you are basically saying the only way your idea
>> can work is to force it on everyone and remove any alternative...
>
>Give people alternatives and they will usually make the safe choice.
>As such, people will buy New Earth stuff rather than other world
>stuff.
Again...look at All Star and Ultimate...they seem to do all right as
is...and, if people are as unhappy with new earth as you say, I would
think they would flock to these new lines regardless.
>
>However, once the New Earth option is taken away, there is potential
>for higher sales all round.
There is also just as much potential to alienate readers and lose
sales...sales have nothing to do with the multiverse...they have to do
with the general quality of the books...and I don't think DC is
seriously hurting for sales as it is.
>
>> under
>> those conditions, even if the books were successful, it wouldn't mean
>> people genuinely liked them...only that they settled for it rather
>> than dumping DC all together...it would prove nothing.
>
>It would lead to the possibility of increased sales and more stable
>continuities.
You don't need to dump everything and start from scratch for
that...you just need better writing and editing...and your idea would
have no impact on that whatsoever.
>
>> >But creating the new universe is a step. Exploring it is a step.
>> Yes, a step to restoring the multiverse as a useable plot
>> device...that's a long way from desolving the combined earth.
>
>Agreed. But it's a step towards it.
It COULD be a step towards it...if that's the direction they were
headed...and there is no real evidence it is.
>
>> >Slash and burning everything on New Earth is a step.
>> How are they doing this anymore now than they have been all along?
>> This is the age of the "shock and awe" writer...death and destruction
>> is the order of the day...
>
>The destruction of New York and the beginning of The Great Disaster is
>par for the course? I think not.
We don't even know what the "Great Disaster" is...it could be Superman
stubbing his toe for all we know...it's no different than any other
major event DC has done...or even some not so major events.
I seem to recall Gotham ravaged by a plague and an
earthquake...Metropolis virtually destroyed and overrun by super
villains...Coast City reduced to a smoking crater...San Diego sinking
into the ocean...Bludhaven flooded with Toxic Waste...Atlantis stepped
on by the Spectre...Star City blown to hell...volcanoes popping up in
the middle of Chicago (I think it was Chicago in Shadowpact this
week)...entire countries, planets, and even universes destroyed...any
of this ringing a bell? What makes this "great disaster" any bigger
than all these others?
>
>> if you think that would change if new earth went away, you're dreaming.
>
>No. But, some of these things can be more fully explored.
How? Now that the multiverse exists again, there is absolutely no
story that could be told without the new earth that could not be told
with it...well, other than the story destroying it...but that would be
a one-shot deal.
>
>In another thread we're discussing the death/retirement of Batman and
>the fact that Dick wouldn't take on the role.
>
>It's a moot point because DC can't kill the New Earth Batman. They
>cannot do it.
>
>However, on Earth-2 it's already happened.
...and we have an E-2 again...presumably with a dead Batman...so I
don't see what your point is here.
>
>> >something Final Crisis is a hint.
>> "Final" could mean anything at this point...it could just be a promise
>> to fans who are sick of one crisis after another that there won't be
>> anymore (though I'll believe that when I see it)...
>
>I didn't say it was proof, I said it was a hint.
It could be a hint at a number of things...this is just what you want
to see happen so it's what you're reading into it.
>
>> Fair enough...but there are also a great deal that, as far as we know,
>> have nothing to do with it...
>
>Agreed. Not every comic has to be set on another Earth, though. A
>lot are, or include characters that are from another Earth. Not every
>title tied into Infinite Crisis directly. Doesn't mean Infinite
>Crisis didn't happen.
Actually, if new earth goes bye bye, I think that means every comic
DOES have to be set on another earth...doesn't it?
That said, I can't think of a single DC book set in the present day
DCU that didn't tie-in to some aspect of Infinite Crisis at some point
along the way...can you? Remember, there were a lot of different
things going on during Infinite Crisis...far more than now.
>
>> Booster Gold is about fixing the inconsistencies of new earth...the
>> removal of which would erase that series' reason for being.
>
>It could move on to Booster exploring the multiverse, visiting Earth-6
>and making a new old friend.
If there were entire lines of books set in the multiverse, that
wouldn't be particularly interesting...and it makes no sense for them
to start this book now with such a grand premise if they only intend
to change it in less than a year.
>
>
>> Not across the board like this...even CoIE didn't completely remove
>> all pre-crisis stories from cannon...
>
>Which was what caused most of the Post-Crisis problems.
It was the only way it could be done...some of their best books
couldn't have existed at all if they restarted everything across the
board...all they needed to do was take page from John Byrne's Superman
reboot...redo the origin and hit on all the major changes and then
skip ahead to the present...the problems arose mainly from
inconsistency...though I still say the general quality of the books
was better post-crisis (not that there weren't some decent pre-crisis
stories as well).
>
>> much, if not most, of the stories
>> of the last 2 decades could not have happened outside the combined
>> earth...
>
>Agreed.
>
>> >Maybe. But I'm willing to look at option. I'm not pretending they
>> >aren't there.
>> No, you're just wildly speculating as to there meaning.
>
>Yes. Welcome to rec.arts.comics.dc.universe.
Fair enough.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 16, 2:54 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >Stick a "Earth-1" label on Superman, an "Earth-2" label on Action
>> >Comics and tell the two separate Superman stories.
>> >What's hard to understand?
>> You really think the average guy on the street who looks at a DC's
>> books but has no knowledge of the multiverse is going to understand
>> what the hell is going on without including an explanation in every
>> book.
>
>The average guy is going to pick up an issue of [Earth-1] Superman and
>read it, and think it is a story about Superman.
>Or he will pick up a copy of [Earth-2] Action Comics, read it and
>think it is a story about Superman.
All it would take is for a guy to pick up two books and see two
completely different Supermans...that would put me off as a
reader...in fact, it's the reason I avoided DC for years back in the
day...it's unnecessarily complicated and, in my opinion, brings
nothing of value to the stories.
>
>It is only people picking up multiple comics over a period where
>becomes an issue. And in that case:
>> Could he figure it out after a while? Sure.
>
>> Would he bother?
>
>He wouldn't have to.
>
>
>> >> and lead to weak writing and editing...
>> >Explain how?
>> Just as before CoIE, continuity would fly out the window...there would
>> be no need to bother with it as you could just say it was on a
>> different earth if it didn't match up.
>
>You can't do that with an Earth-2 label.
>
>You're inventing problems.
No, I'm listing the problems they had in the past.
>
>> >And explain how the editing and writing would be weaker than now?
>> There are still quite a few good books coming out...if they all sucked
>> then no one would read them and we wouldn't be having this
>> conversation.
>
>Agreed.
>
>Now, back to the point: please explain you claim that having multiple
>universes would make the writing and editing worse.
It's too tempting to take the easy way out and ignore continuity using
the multiverse as a crutch...it was poorly handled and defined before
and I see nothing to suggest it wouldn't be this time.
>
>> >Name them.
>> OK...for a few...the Batman/Wildcat stories from Brave & the Bold,
>
>B&B we discused.
>
>> Super Sons stories from World's Finest,
>
>And how do they related to current things being shunted?
They are just further examples of how screwed up continuity was
pre-crisis.
>
>> the mess that was Black Canary
>
>What mess?
Well, you complain about the current Hawkman who is reincarnated and
merged with the alien version...the pre-crisis Black Canary jumped
worlds and body swapped with her daughter or some other lame
shit...the current split between the Golden Age and current Black
Canary is a much better idea.
>
>> >> if a story didn't "make sense" (which seems to be important to you),
>> >I hope it's important to everyone.
>> I hope so too but I was just pointing out that you bring it up a lot.
>
>No more than others
>
>> Making official didn't happen and, with all the problems we already
>> have now, you you honestly think it wouldn't happen again?
>
>Yes.
>
>Why do you think otherwise?
They mishandled it once...what evidence is there they wouldn't again?
It's too easy to scew it up.
>
>
>> You think going back to the multiverse will automatically mean better
>> writers and editors...riiight.
>
>No. I made no such claims. You're the one claiming that a multiverse
>will make them worse.
I think it will in many cases...I think continuity would go the way of
the dodo.
>
>> >No, but it's important to the origin of the multiverse.
>> >Important plot point in Countdown: The Source Wall is being damaged by
>> >travel through it.
>
>> >If Power Girl comes from the original Earth-2 she never travelled
>> >through the source wall and is therefore not an anomally. She is part
>> >of New Earth.
>
>> >If she comes from the 52verse Earth-2, she travelled through the wall
>> >to get her and is part of the problem.
>
>> Well, since the Monitors seem to be leaving her alone, that's
>> unlikely.
>
>Right. So now 52 week 51 has a dangling reference to another Power
>Girl missing from (the new) Earth-2.
>
>See. The beginnings of a mess.
It's ONE panel...ONE...PANEL.
>
>> >How so?
>> It wouldn't resolve anything...we'd just have several Donnas who are
>> essentially the same character with different origins...this seems
>> pointless to me.
>
>It allows writers to explore different aspects and versions of the
>character within the context of ongoing stories.
Why? If you want to tell stories about a different character, then
create one...you don't have to make her a doppelganger of an existing
character to do that.
>
>> >On Earth-1 she was Diana's childhood playfriend.
>> >On Earth-17 she was saved by the Titans of Myth.
>> >How is that confusing?
>> How is it any less confusing than, due to a cosmic snafu, all those
>> Donnas are merged into one single character?
>
>All a person reading [Earth-1] Wonder Woman needs know about Donna is
>she was created as Wonder Woman's childhood friend.
>
>All a person reading [Earth-17] Titans needs to know is she was raised
>by The Titans of Myth.
>
>A person reading [New Earth] Challengers of the Beyond needs to know
>that there was a girl raised as Wonder Woman's friend on one universe
>which was destroyed and then there was another where the same girl was
>raised by the Titans of Myth and there was a whole bunch of other ones
>and then she was recreated using Wally's memories of her then she died
>and came back, but she was another universe's version of her but had
>all the memories of the others although in the current universe none
>of those things really happened.
>
>You're right. Far less confusing.
The thing you aren't getting is, while her origin is screwed up, the
character isn't substantially different for it...there is no reason
why any of these single origins would lead to a different character
than the one we already have because they already didn't when those
new origins were introduced...hell, she only even exists because of a
writing and editorial mistake...it's just being consistent.
>
>
>> What is the benefit of
>> multiple Donnas where, dispite differences in origin, the end result
>> is the same?
>
>No. The end result is completely different. My way they are
>different people. You way she is one person with multiple
>personalities.
No...she's one person with several different origins...not
personalities...you see, with Donna, DC didn't start with an origin
and build a character from there, they did it the other way
around...different origins have had very little impact on the
character other than the current tendency to focus on the negative and
dwell on her messed up origin rather than moving forward.
>
>> Again, it beats the hell out of multiple Donnas that are identical in
>> everyway in everything but origin.
>
>Riight.
>
>> >You know that that version has been pretty much debunked by comic book
>> >historians, right? That, although there was one letter of complaint,
>> >it was not connected to DC's plans to get rid of the multiverse? You
>> >have heard that, yeah?
>> I have heard varying versions of this...but, at the very least, the
>> people in charge of DC thought it was a good idea (and I'd still wager
>> there was more than one complaint)...and, last time I checked, that
>> wasn't me...especially since I was only 4 at the time.
>
>The people at DC thought it was a good idea. The people at DC think
>that bringing it back is a good idea. There you go.
But we don't know that the people at DC think it's a good idea...you
are only guessing that they plan to do away with new earth.
>
>The unreperesentative polls shows that those who were reading back
>then prefer the multiverse.
Yes, I saw that thread...but you didn't ask the right question...you
asked when people started reading and whether or not they liked the
multiverse...you didn't ask if they wanted it back at the expense of
the combined earth...I know a lot of people who like the multiverse
idea but don't want it to replace new earth.
>
>> I don't understand why eveyone is so down on Hawkman...if you can
>> understand multiple versions of the character on multiple earths, what
>> is so damn difficult about one version that combines the best of every
>> version?
>
>Because the concept of different people is easy to understand.
>
>And we've seen enough TV shows, movies, comics that show different
>versions of Bond, Superman and Sherlock Holmes to understand that
>there can be different people.
The difference here is that you rarely see multiple versions the
character at the same time...you don't see two Bond movies come out at
the same time with different Bonds...revamping, or even rebooting, a
character is not the same as multiple concurrent versions of the same
character. In fact, DC itself, or at least the parent company Warner
Brothers, is usually careful to avoid that happening...it's why we
won't ever see Batman on Smallville...and why, even though they
allowed Smallville at the same time as a Superman movie, there are
some pretty strict limits on what they are allowed to do on the show
vs. what they can do in the movies.
>
>Because SF has an ongoing history of multiple universes. Sliders,
>Star Trek, Charlie Jade, The One, &c.
Fine...let's talk about Sliders, shall we? As I recall, the lead
character actually merged with an alternate version of himself in the
final seasons of that show and remained that way for the rest of the
series? Sounds pretty similar to me...and, while alternate realities
is a common sci-fi plot device...touching on that once in a while is
far different than, say, starting two different, ongoing Star Trek
series at the same time that are set in different realities.
Paragon
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:477ac3d204ppvrmku...@4ax.com...
>>> >Important plot point in Countdown: The Source Wall is being damaged by
>>> >travel through it.
>>
>>> >If Power Girl comes from the original Earth-2 she never travelled
>>> >through the source wall and is therefore not an anomally. She is part
>>> >of New Earth.
>>
>>> >If she comes from the 52verse Earth-2, she travelled through the wall
>>> >to get her and is part of the problem.
>>
>>> Well, since the Monitors seem to be leaving her alone, that's
>>> unlikely.
>>
>>Right. So now 52 week 51 has a dangling reference to another Power
>>Girl missing from (the new) Earth-2.
>>
>>See. The beginnings of a mess.
>
> It's ONE panel...ONE...PANEL.
And speaking of one panel, Rip Hunter's chalkboard in Booster Gold makes
reference to PG missing as well. Which I think is the beginning of her
"journey", but could be inreference to the missing E2 PG. Something's
coming, and I too hope it will not make things more confusing for this
character.
lione...@yahoo.com
> Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote innews:1186204775.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >> I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
> >> Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm Universe
> >> titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different universes.
>
> > Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>
> I think he believes it. Without doubt, the Authority (and by extension,
> Stormwatch - which then connects to the rest of the WU) lives in the
> same world as Planetary. There was even a crossover of sorts in which
> didn't actually meet up.
That crossover established no such thing.
lione...@yahoo.com
> On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
> > Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm Universe
> > titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different universes.
>
> Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>
> = DUG.
> ===
I believe it because its true.
lione...@yahoo.com
wrote:
OK, Actually someone pointed out the Jenny Sparks Elijah get together
elsewhere. However, there are a lot of inconsistencies if they truly
fully exist in the same universe as groups such as the Authority and
don't just pass through from time to time.
lione...@yahoo.com
> On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
> > Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm Universe
> > titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo different universes.
>
> Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>
> ===
> = DUG.
> ===
My response was triggered by the fact that I had no idea what you were
trying to say and what significance you thought it had. I never
mentioned anything about Worldstorm or Stormwatch so I was not sure
why you brought those up. It seemed like a total nonsequitor to my
post. I was just trying to clarify my original comments.
Dan McEwen
news:1187360122.6...@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com:
They were in the same story, fighting the same enemy. They just didn't
actually encounter one another. Jenny Sparks has fucked Elijah Snow. A
linking point is that they're both "Century Babies". We also know that
the Authority is chock full of ex-Stormwatch members. Planetary has
outright referenced Henry Bendix. Please explain to me how it didn't
establish that they were in the same universe.
Dan McEwen
news:1187360438....@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 17, 7:16 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> On Aug 3, 10:19 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>> > On Aug 2, 11:59 am, "lionelhu...@yahoo.com" <lionelhu...@yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > I have no idea what you are talking about. I just meant that
>> > > Planetary does not crossover into any of the other Wildstorm
>> > > Universe titles and none of the characters overlap, ergo
>> > > different universes.
>>
>> > Are you lying to win the argument or do you actually believe this?
>> I believe it because its true.
>
> OK, Actually someone pointed out the Jenny Sparks Elijah get together
> elsewhere. However, there are a lot of inconsistencies if they truly
> fully exist in the same universe as groups such as the Authority and
> don't just pass through from time to time.
They work in entirely different areas. They're not prone to meet up
very often.
Chenry
wrote:
This is a pretty good indicator that Planetary takes place in The
Wildstorm U (and why it's important to the concept).
http://home.earthlink.net/~rkkman/frames/summaries/Sproposal.htm
Daibhid Ceanaideach
did say:
OKay, now I'm mildly annoyed because I think I've seen the
Moore quote Ellis references with "mad and beautiful ideas",
and I can't remember what it was, and I can't find it online.
It was *something* like "X is the sort of mad and beautiful
idea comics are all about" where "X" was the bottle city of
Kandor, or Krypto the Superdog, or invisible yellow sheilds.
Something wacky and Silver Age, anyway. But I can't remember
exactly what.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"There *is* no Niels, the Bouncing Cat! He's gone!
Now, there is only ... P-Cat, the Penitent Puss!"
lione...@yahoo.com
Yes, the Authority is and always has been in the Wildstorm Universe.
However, the only events linking Planetary to the rest of the WS
universe are
(1) Elijah/Jenny
and
(2) Authority/Planetary.
With respect to the latter, it's been awhile since I read it but I
thought it was possible that that the Planetary crew and the Authority
crew may have been working in different Universes.
BTW, when I say different Universes, I mean just that. A different
universe connected through the Bleed.
As far as the Jenny thing, I thought that was just Millar ignoring
continuity.
Besides these two events has there been anything else that links
Planetary to the Wildstorm U? I am seriously asking.
grinningdemon
Well...there's the very idea of the century babies (like Elijah and
Jenny) which has always been an idea exclusive to the Wildstorm
Universe that was thought up by the creator of both Authority and
Planetary...the fact that Elijah's "guides" have been mentioned in
other Wildstorm books (I remember it happening more than once but I'm
spacing out on where exactly...I can't remember if it was in the
Authority or Wildcats...and I also want to say they were mentioned in
the Majestic series but I might be wrong on that one).
Simply put, there are several pieces of evidence suggesting Planetary
DOES take place in the Wildstorm Universe and nothing to suggest that
it does not.
Duggy
> >But a small number, mostly one-shots.
> Ever hear of Kingdom Come or New Frontier? They were Elseworlds
> stories and they did very well, as I recall.
Two out of hundreds?
Thank you for proving *my* point.
> >The entrenched belief that they are not "really" and only the main
> >line accounts for anything.
> The only way this would apply is if DC actually treated them as
> secondary...
Which they'd have to as they have 50 New Earth comics and they'd have
5 or 6 comics set of individual Earths.
The other option is to drop everything back to 1-2 comics a universe.
> they could just as easily do them as completely
> independent lines and they could be successful if anyone actually
> wanted them...look at All-Star or Marvel's Ultimate line...you don't
> have to do away with one to have success with another.
All-Star? The one that was going to have Batgirl and Wonder Woman but
down won't for a while?
> >No. Things don't just sell. Things have to presented in the correct
> >way before they will sell.
> Yes...and all it would take is for DC to put some A-list talent on
> those books to get them attention...
Not all talent is A-list.
Would you ban A-list talent from New Earth comics to do it?
Or would you get them to do more and more stuff?
> from there it would all be about
> the strength of the books themselves...
Not always.
> if the interest is there then
> it would work...personally, I think it would flood the market and
> probably be a huge flop...but that's just me.
Exactly.
If you flood the market - ala DC Focus or Helix - people avoid it.
If you do it as a dribble people avoid it and you can't promote it
with Crossovers.
> Again...look at All Star and Ultimate...
Yes, look at All Star.
Ultimate works. But it isn't 51 universes. It's one.
> if people are as unhappy with new earth as you say,
When did I say that?
> There is also just as much potential to alienate readers and lose
> sales...
Certainly.
> sales have nothing to do with the multiverse...they have to do
> with the general quality of the books...
Not true. People will avoid stuff in a new universe because it is a
new universe.
> You don't need to dump everything and start from scratch for
> that...
They did at the beginning of the Silver Age.
> you just need better writing and editing...
Why? What's wrong with the writing and the editting?
> and your idea would have no impact on that whatsoever.
People's purchasing habits are based more more than just writing and
editting?
How many great books with great writing have died on the vine?
> >Agreed. But it's a step towards it.
> It COULD be a step towards it...if that's the direction they were
> headed...and there is no real evidence it is.
Of course not. But there are hints.
> >The destruction of New York and the beginning of The Great
Disaster is
> >par for the course? I think not.
> We don't even know what the "Great Disaster" is...it could be Superman
> stubbing his toe for all we know...it's no different than any other
> major event DC has done...or even some not so major events.
We know that the Countdown poster image of the Statue of Liberty is a
reference to Kamandi.
> What makes this "great disaster" any bigger than all these others?
Because it relates to the Great Disaster comics Kamandi, Hercules
Unbound & Atomic Knight/
> How? Now that the multiverse exists again, there is absolutely no
> story that could be told without the new earth that could not be told
> with it...well, other than the story destroying it...but that would be
> a one-shot deal.
Earth-1 & Earth-2 can't become living breathing Earths with New Earth
to steel their thunder.
> >However, on Earth-2 it's already happened.
> ...and we have an E-2 again...presumably with a dead Batman...so I
> don't see what your point is here.
Would you buy Earth-2 Nightwing when New Earth Nightwing is still
being published?
> >I didn't say it was proof, I said it was a hint.
> It could be a hint at a number of things...this is just what you want
> to see happen so it's what you're reading into it.
When did I deny that?
> Actually, if new earth goes bye bye, I think that means every comic
> DOES have to be set on another earth...doesn't it?
Yes, and?
> That said, I can't think of a single DC book set in the present day
> DCU that didn't tie-in to some aspect of Infinite Crisis at some point
> along the way...can you? Remember, there were a lot of different
> things going on during Infinite Crisis...far more than now.
And they still would. Duh.
> If there were entire lines of books set in the multiverse, that
> wouldn't be particularly interesting...
There are 52 universe. If you have 5 or 6 Earth-1 books and 5 or 6
Earth-2 books, and 5 or 6 Earth-8 books, you don't have room for too
many Earth-6 books. Or any Earth-12 books.
There's still room for a roamer.
>and it makes no sense for them
> to start this book now with such a grand premise if they only intend
> to change it in less than a year.
Unless it's a MacGuffin. And 20 months isn't "less than a year" it's
more.
> It was the only way it could be done...some of their best books
> couldn't have existed at all if they restarted everything across the
> board...
Agreed.
> all they needed to do was take page from John Byrne's Superman
> reboot...redo the origin and hit on all the major changes and then
> skip ahead to the present...
Which leaves you with a silent past, which is painful and causes
inconsistency.
> the problems arose mainly from inconsistency...
Exactly.
> >> >Maybe. But I'm willing to look at option. I'm not pretending they
> >> >aren't there.
> >> No, you're just wildly speculating as to there meaning.
> >Yes. Welcome to rec.arts.comics.dc.universe.
> Fair enough.
===
= DUG.
===
Dan McEwen
news:1187408369.7...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
Century babies, which I've mentioned. Henry Bendix, which I've also
mentioned. (He was the head of Stormwatch, in case you're unaware.)
Stormwatch mentioned in the background, which I didn't mention but
someone else did.
lione...@yahoo.com
That's right there is his agent of S.T.O.R.M. buddy which is an
implied (or did they even make it explicit?) precursor to Stormwatch..
In what issue of Planetary was Bendix mentioned.
And the Authority is definitely in WSU proper. I never disputed that.
Dan McEwen
news:1187467580....@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
This whole thing is ridulous. You're wrong but I'm not doing all the
legwork on it.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Aug 17, 1:40 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >But a small number, mostly one-shots.
>> Ever hear of Kingdom Come or New Frontier? They were Elseworlds
>> stories and they did very well, as I recall.
>
>Two out of hundreds?
>
>Thank you for proving *my* point.
It proves nothing...these are just two of the stand-outs...if they
were the only successful Elseworlds books then the line would have
ended years before either of these even came out...I can think of
quite a few great elseworlds stories.
>
>> >The entrenched belief that they are not "really" and only the main
>> >line accounts for anything.
>
>> The only way this would apply is if DC actually treated them as
>> secondary...
>
>Which they'd have to as they have 50 New Earth comics and they'd have
>5 or 6 comics set of individual Earths.
>
>The other option is to drop everything back to 1-2 comics a universe.
I really don't see your point here...even if they drop new earth, the
focus would inevitably fall back to E-1 and/or E-2...leaving the rest
in the dust...they aren't going to just start putting out books left
and right set on all 52 earths.
>
>> they could just as easily do them as completely
>> independent lines and they could be successful if anyone actually
>> wanted them...look at All-Star or Marvel's Ultimate line...you don't
>> have to do away with one to have success with another.
>
>All-Star? The one that was going to have Batgirl and Wonder Woman but
>down won't for a while?
Those books are still coming...they haven't been cancelled...only put
off because the creators are too busy at the moment...the Superman and
Batman (which I personally think is crap) books sell very well and
that, to me, disproves your theory.
>
>> >No. Things don't just sell. Things have to presented in the correct
>> >way before they will sell.
>> Yes...and all it would take is for DC to put some A-list talent on
>> those books to get them attention...
>
>Not all talent is A-list.
>
>Would you ban A-list talent from New Earth comics to do it?
>
>Or would you get them to do more and more stuff?
It's not mutually exclusive...fans go where the talent is...you don't
have to keep them from doing new earth stuff...I again point to the
All Star line with Grant Morrison and Frank Miller as proof.
>
>> from there it would all be about
>> the strength of the books themselves...
>
>Not always.
No, not always...but your assertion that a multiverse line can only
succede if readers aren't given any choice is just ridiculous. If
people are genuinely interested in the concept and the books are done
well then they will sell.
>
>> if the interest is there then
>> it would work...personally, I think it would flood the market and
>> probably be a huge flop...but that's just me.
>
>Exactly.
You realize you just agreed with me that your idea wouldn't work,
right?
>
>If you flood the market - ala DC Focus or Helix - people avoid it.
>
>If you do it as a dribble people avoid it and you can't promote it
>with Crossovers.
Umm...you kind of have to do one or the other...it's the only way to
do what you propose...if you admitt that neither way works, I'm not
sure what we are arguing about.
>
>> Again...look at All Star and Ultimate...
>
>Yes, look at All Star.
Whether you want to admit it or not, All Star is commercially
successful.
>
>Ultimate works. But it isn't 51 universes. It's one.
So? It works...and it's not set in the main Marvel Universe...and the
Main Marvel Universe didn't have to go away for it to work.
>
>> if people are as unhappy with new earth as you say,
>
>When did I say that?
What are we discussing here?
>
>> There is also just as much potential to alienate readers and lose
>> sales...
>
>Certainly.
OK...you're just screwing with me now, aren't you?
>
>> sales have nothing to do with the multiverse...they have to do
>> with the general quality of the books...
>
>Not true. People will avoid stuff in a new universe because it is a
>new universe.
Umm...Ultimate, All Star, Vertigo, MAX (to a lesser degree) all seem
to prove you wrong...new universes...and still successful.
>
>> You don't need to dump everything and start from scratch for
>> that...
>
>They did at the beginning of the Silver Age.
Yes...and then they changed their minds and brought it all back in the
form of the multiverse...and that doesn't really compare anyway as
virtually all super hero books had been absent from newstands for
years before they did it.
>
>> you just need better writing and editing...
>
>Why? What's wrong with the writing and the editting?
If you are happy with things as they are, then why are we having this
conversation?
There are good books and there are bad books...this has been the case
at any given time since comics began...this will always be the case no
matter what gimmick they come up with.
>
>> and your idea would have no impact on that whatsoever.
>
>People's purchasing habits are based more more than just writing and
>editting?
>
>How many great books with great writing have died on the vine?
This rarely happens with established, popular characters...only with
new ones...and this would still be the case whether they were set on
E-1, E-2, or E-22.
>
>> >Agreed. But it's a step towards it.
>> It COULD be a step towards it...if that's the direction they were
>> headed...and there is no real evidence it is.
>
>Of course not. But there are hints.
> > >The destruction of New York and the beginning of The Great
>Disaster is
>> >par for the course? I think not.
>
>> We don't even know what the "Great Disaster" is...it could be Superman
>> stubbing his toe for all we know...it's no different than any other
>> major event DC has done...or even some not so major events.
>
>We know that the Countdown poster image of the Statue of Liberty is a
>reference to Kamandi.
>
>> What makes this "great disaster" any bigger than all these others?
>
>Because it relates to the Great Disaster comics Kamandi, Hercules
>Unbound & Atomic Knight/
So what? This proves nothing at all. This could play out any number
of ways.
>
>> How? Now that the multiverse exists again, there is absolutely no
>> story that could be told without the new earth that could not be told
>> with it...well, other than the story destroying it...but that would be
>> a one-shot deal.
>
>Earth-1 & Earth-2 can't become living breathing Earths with New Earth
>to steel their thunder.
It that's true, then there can't be much interest in them...by this
logic, the old multiverse would never have worked...they didn't all
spring up at the same time.
>
>> >However, on Earth-2 it's already happened.
>> ...and we have an E-2 again...presumably with a dead Batman...so I
>> don't see what your point is here.
>
>Would you buy Earth-2 Nightwing when New Earth Nightwing is still
>being published?
Since there is no E-2 Nightwing, probably not...seriously though, I
wouldn't buy an E-2 book because I have little interest in the
multiverse...but that's just me...all that would happen if they did
away with new earth would be me saving a considerable sum of money
each month when I drop all DCU books...furthermore, if you don't think
an E-2 Nightwing book could sell while the new earth Nightwing book
continues, I don't know how you think an E-2 Nightwing book would sell
while an E-1 Nightwing book was going. What's the difference really?
And, if there aren't going to be overlapping books like that in the
multiverse line, then why can't they just be set on new earth? Your
logic is seriously flawed.
>
>> >I didn't say it was proof, I said it was a hint.
>> It could be a hint at a number of things...this is just what you want
>> to see happen so it's what you're reading into it.
>
>When did I deny that?
>
>> Actually, if new earth goes bye bye, I think that means every comic
>> DOES have to be set on another earth...doesn't it?
>
>Yes, and?
I was responding to your statement that not every book would have to
be set on another earth...which would seem to cut your idea off at the
knees.
>
>> That said, I can't think of a single DC book set in the present day
>> DCU that didn't tie-in to some aspect of Infinite Crisis at some point
>> along the way...can you? Remember, there were a lot of different
>> things going on during Infinite Crisis...far more than now.
>
>And they still would. Duh.
Huh? Are you even reading my posts?
>
>> If there were entire lines of books set in the multiverse, that
>> wouldn't be particularly interesting...
>
>There are 52 universe. If you have 5 or 6 Earth-1 books and 5 or 6
>Earth-2 books, and 5 or 6 Earth-8 books, you don't have room for too
>many Earth-6 books. Or any Earth-12 books.
>
>There's still room for a roamer.
Why fix what isn't broken?
>
>>and it makes no sense for them
>> to start this book now with such a grand premise if they only intend
>> to change it in less than a year.
>
>Unless it's a MacGuffin. And 20 months isn't "less than a year" it's
>more.
It's less than a year from now. And, if you think DC would
fundamentally alter their entire line of books just to mislead the
readers from the actual plan, you are seriously reaching.
>
>> It was the only way it could be done...some of their best books
>> couldn't have existed at all if they restarted everything across the
>> board...
>
>Agreed.
>
>> all they needed to do was take page from John Byrne's Superman
>> reboot...redo the origin and hit on all the major changes and then
>> skip ahead to the present...
>
>Which leaves you with a silent past, which is painful and causes
>inconsistency.
Not at all...if they do it right and show all the major changes then
everything else is as it always was...there is no silent past or
inconsistency.
Mathew Krull
intentionally put it away from the bigger books and avoided direct
crossovers because, frankly, that would have been counter to what they
were trying to do with the series. Chenry even posted a link to Ellis'
original proposal for the series.
lione...@yahoo.com
MG
>>> Again, it beats the hell out of multiple Donnas that are identical in
>>> everyway in everything but origin.
Donna is a bad example of the multiverse concept as she was unique to
Earth-1 before Crisis.
The multiple Donnas is an invention of the post-Crisis merged Earth that was
supposed to be less confusing.
Eminence
wrote:
The biggest inconsistency that I can see is that Elijah's work is in
conflict with the goals of the Four, and while the Four took steps to
prevent the rise (in the WS universe) of analogues of Superman, Wonder
Woman, and Green Lantern, they apparently took no such steps against
the Authority, Majestic, et al.
Eminence
_______________
Usenet: Global Village of the Damned
grinningdemon
Maybe so...but the suggestion Duggy gave is to a different Donna on a
different earth for every origin she has...and that really doesn't
seem like an improvement to me.