Earth-2 Legion Synopsis
Michael Pastor
(and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive Legion
thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
JSA Technology:
- Cosmic Energy (Starman)
- 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
- Miralco
- Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
- Immortality Vitamin from the Amazons
Retro-futurism with tech:
- Rocket packs (for propulsion)
- Mechanical technology
- Aasimovian Atomic Energy
- Magitech ( a result of the Homo Magi never leaving earth)
- Other strange Amazonian technology (telepathy globe? What was it called?)
- Purple Ray
Sociology:
- Many hidden races on Earth "come out" along with other Secret Societies
and JSA Bloodlines, prompting a Diaspora from Earth to planets within our
Solar System and nearby stellar neighbors.
- Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more significant
in this 30th century.
Team-wide considerations:
- *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
- *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
Possible cast of characters: (both hero and villain)
- Power Girl: Earth-2's Supergirl, and perhaps the core inspiration behind
the Society of Super-Heroes.
- Halk Kar: a 20th century native of Thoron. He is the Mon-El analogue,
with powers similar to Superman's, but not as strong.
- Shining Knight: Sir Justin of Ancient Camelot and WWII, known to have
been sent to the 35th century (3450), being sent there by an addled Merlin
rather than the intended 1950. [Adventure #159]
- Ultra Boy: (great- ^n) grandchild of Gary Concord Ultra Man (1950 - 2239)
and Gary Concord Jr. (2214)
- Star Boy: Ted Knight's or Sylvester Pemberton's descendent, who possibly
works in symbiosis with a descendent of the Earth 2 Starro (and possibly
permanently fused to his face)
- Venus Girl: An Amazonian representative from Venus.
- Sympath, an alien empath from the same world as the alien who stole part
of Robin's life essence in an old "Worlds Finest" story. (Can create virtual
personalities of people it has met, by (Try to imagine a Rogue variant who's
a large, obese looking alien with tentacles.)
- Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically based,
and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to the Emerald
Eye?
- Hawkboy and Hawkgirl: Feitherian descendents, one with avian telepathy,
one as a shape changer
- Chemical King: test tube/chemistry set scientific type
- Homo Magi descendent
- Degaton 5: descendant of Per Degaton, possibly with natural time
manipulation powers.
- Vandal Savage: still alive?
- Thunderbolt: descendent of Jay Garrick
- BEM: Bug Eyed Monster (Gates?)
- Charma: en exiled Amazonian with empathic ability to control men and
instill hatred in women.
- Apollo: an exiled Amazonian male with empathic ability to control women.
- Monkey Boy: an intelligent simian
- Atlantean descendant
Questions:
- What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him rich in
this universe?
- Is racism and isolationism more or less prevalent in this version?
Possibly at first, prompting the SSH?
- A Legionnaire that embodies an 'obscure' socio-political though, like
Communism, Fascism, Ghibellinism, Albigensian, or other?
- Does the Earth-2 Legion embody a 1000 year allegorical parallel
heroically, sociologically, or serially?
enjoy,
michael j pastor
CleV
>Team-wide considerations:
>Questions:
>Enjoy,
So cool!!!!!
Dan McEwen
news:40413bca...@news.hispeed.ch:
>>Questions:
>
>>- What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him rich
>>in this universe?
>>- Is racism and isolationism more or less prevalent in this version?
>>Possibly at first, prompting the SSH?
>>- A Legionnaire that embodies an 'obscure' socio-political though,
>>like Communism, Fascism, Ghibellinism, Albigensian, or other?
>>- Does the Earth-2 Legion embody a 1000 year allegorical parallel
>>heroically, sociologically, or serially?
>
>>Enjoy,
>
> So cool!!!!!
Sorry, but you have to have the magic pen before Johnny Thunderbolt can
come out and make this wish come true! ;)
Michael Pastor
> In article <c1r3fr$1lbf6h$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> JSA Technology:
>
> Phantom Lady's black light.
>
>> - Homo Magi descendent
>
> Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
Well Zatara is supposed to have been descended from them isnt he? At least
slightly?
>
>> - Atlantean descendant
>
> Wouldn't that be Earth-1 too? I don't recall any Atlantis in Earth-2
> (and especially not for Aquaman).
We sorta decided that there need to be one for his mother to have come from
somewhere, and it was a blank slate (sorta, as there were a *LOT* of GA
Atlantis tales, including Mu, etc)
>
>> - A Legionnaire that embodies an 'obscure' socio-political though,
>> like Communism, Fascism, Ghibellinism, Albigensian, or other?
>
> The problem with this kind of character is that half the time the
> writer puts it in because he himself believes in the philosophy the
> character espouses. This leads to characters not seeing flaws in
> their philosophy or becoming immune to some of its consequences.
There are no flaws in philosophy. So we avoid that ;-)
michael j pastor
George Grattan
<michael...@hotmail.com> said:
> Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>
> (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive Legion
> thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>
> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>
> JSA Technology:
> - Cosmic Energy (Starman)
> - 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
> - Miralco
Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps it's
become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used especially by
criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to combat?
> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
> - Immortality Vitamin from the Amazons
> Retro-futurism with tech:
> - Rocket packs (for propulsion)
> - Mechanical technology
> - Aasimovian Atomic Energy
> - Magitech ( a result of the Homo Magi never leaving earth)
> - Other strange Amazonian technology (telepathy globe? What was it called?)
The Magic Sphere. We could call it the Amazonian Omnicom, and it could
go horribly insane at one point and become Omnicomputo. :-)
> - Purple Ray
Needs to be used within strict storytelling limits, of course. Hmm. If
the Amazons colonize Venus as Paradise Planet, then perhaps a Venusian
moon becomes their Reformation Island (Reformation Rock), this Legion's
version of Takron-Galtos. (Though having it so close to the home world
would, of course, prove to be a bad idea.)
>
> Sociology:
> - Many hidden races on Earth "come out" along with other Secret Societies
> and JSA Bloodlines, prompting a Diaspora from Earth to planets within our
> Solar System and nearby stellar neighbors.
>
> - Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more significant
> in this 30th century.
Agreed, and let's have Gotham become the uber-megalopolis, with a
Metropolis and New York district, etc.
>
> Team-wide considerations:
>
> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
> - *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
Sure. I think everyone who wants to should be able to be married.
*Cough*.
>
> Possible cast of characters: (both hero and villain)
>
> - Power Girl: Earth-2's Supergirl, and perhaps the core inspiration behind
> the Society of Super-Heroes.
> - Halk Kar: a 20th century native of Thoron. He is the Mon-El analogue,
> with powers similar to Superman's, but not as strong.
> - Shining Knight: Sir Justin of Ancient Camelot and WWII, known to have
> been sent to the 35th century (3450), being sent there by an addled Merlin
> rather than the intended 1950. [Adventure #159]
> - Ultra Boy: (great- ^n) grandchild of Gary Concord Ultra Man (1950 - 2239)
> and Gary Concord Jr. (2214)
> - Star Boy: Ted Knight's or Sylvester Pemberton's descendent, who possibly
> works in symbiosis with a descendent of the Earth 2 Starro (and possibly
> permanently fused to his face)
> - Venus Girl: An Amazonian representative from Venus.
> - Sympath, an alien empath from the same world as the alien who stole part
> of Robin's life essence in an old "Worlds Finest" story. (Can create virtual
> personalities of people it has met, by (Try to imagine a Rogue variant who's
> a large, obese looking alien with tentacles.)
Now try to imagine her drawn by Jim Lee, wearing leather, spandex, and
lots of pockets. :-)
> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically based,
> and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to the Emerald
> Eye?
Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
> - Hawkboy and Hawkgirl: Feitherian descendents, one with avian telepathy,
> one as a shape changer
> - Chemical King: test tube/chemistry set scientific type
> - Homo Magi descendent
> - Degaton 5: descendant of Per Degaton, possibly with natural time
> manipulation powers.
> - Vandal Savage: still alive?
Oh, sure--I'd see him as a cheif arch-nemesis of the team, perhaps
their Universo type figure.
> - Thunderbolt: descendent of Jay Garrick
> - BEM: Bug Eyed Monster (Gates?)
> - Charma: en exiled Amazonian with empathic ability to control men and
> instill hatred in women.
> - Apollo: an exiled Amazonian male with empathic ability to control women.
> - Monkey Boy: an intelligent simian
> - Atlantean descendant
>
> Questions:
>
> - What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him rich in
> this universe?
Kooky as it sounds, I'd still love to have it at least hinted that R.J.
is a time-lost FDR. :-)
--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George
George Grattan
> In article <c1r3fr$1lbf6h$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> JSA Technology:
>
> Phantom Lady's black light.
>
>> - Homo Magi descendent
>
> Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
Nabu could well show up, too (I'd prefer him as their Mordru, I think),
but Zatara existed on E2, so there's at least the possibility of the
Homo Magi having been there, as well. (Obviously, it was only confirmed
on E1.)
>
>> - Atlantean descendant
>
> Wouldn't that be Earth-1 too? I don't recall any Atlantis in Earth-2
> (and especially not for Aquaman).
There was an E2 Aquaman, indeed, as shown in a few brief mentions and
appearances in ALL-STAR SQUADRON. If he was there, so was Atlantis.
Michael Pastor
> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>> Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>
>> (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
>> Legion thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>
> Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>
>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>
> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>
>>
>> JSA Technology:
>> - Cosmic Energy (Starman)
>> - 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
>> - Miralco
>
> Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps it's
> become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used especially
> by criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to combat?
Nice twist.
>
>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
>> - Immortality Vitamin from the Amazons
>> Retro-futurism with tech:
>> - Rocket packs (for propulsion)
>> - Mechanical technology
>> - Aasimovian Atomic Energy
>> - Magitech ( a result of the Homo Magi never leaving earth)
>> - Other strange Amazonian technology (telepathy globe? What was it
>> called?)
>
> The Magic Sphere. We could call it the Amazonian Omnicom, and it could
> go horribly insane at one point and become Omnicomputo. :-)
Amazomnicomputo?
>
>> - Purple Ray
>
> Needs to be used within strict storytelling limits, of course. Hmm.
> If the Amazons colonize Venus as Paradise Planet, then perhaps a
> Venusian moon becomes their Reformation Island (Reformation Rock),
> this Legion's version of Takron-Galtos. (Though having it so close to
> the home world would, of course, prove to be a bad idea.)
Well Venus does indeed need a moon, as it doesn't have one. Maybe the
(artificial/new) moon is where the *men* live, not an island.
>>
>> Sociology:
>> - Many hidden races on Earth "come out" along with other Secret
>> Societies and JSA Bloodlines, prompting a Diaspora from Earth to
>> planets within our Solar System and nearby stellar neighbors.
>>
>> - Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more
>> significant in this 30th century.
>
> Agreed, and let's have Gotham become the uber-megalopolis, with a
> Metropolis and New York district, etc.
Or, as I was originally thinking, that Gotham takes the north east and
Metropolis the south east, but I like your idea the more I think about it.
>
>>
>> Team-wide considerations:
>>
>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>
> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>
>> - *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
>
> Sure. I think everyone who wants to should be able to be married.
>
> *Cough*.
LOL, thanks for that chuckle today.
>
>
>>
>> Possible cast of characters: (both hero and villain)
>>
>> - Power Girl: Earth-2's Supergirl, and perhaps the core inspiration
>> behind the Society of Super-Heroes.
>> - Halk Kar: a 20th century native of Thoron. He is the Mon-El
>> analogue, with powers similar to Superman's, but not as strong.
>> - Shining Knight: Sir Justin of Ancient Camelot and WWII, known to
>> have been sent to the 35th century (3450), being sent there by an
>> addled Merlin rather than the intended 1950. [Adventure #159]
>> - Ultra Boy: (great- ^n) grandchild of Gary Concord Ultra Man (1950
>> - 2239) and Gary Concord Jr. (2214)
>> - Star Boy: Ted Knight's or Sylvester Pemberton's descendent, who
>> possibly works in symbiosis with a descendent of the Earth 2 Starro
>> (and possibly permanently fused to his face)
>> - Venus Girl: An Amazonian representative from Venus.
>> - Sympath, an alien empath from the same world as the alien who
>> stole part of Robin's life essence in an old "Worlds Finest" story.
>> (Can create virtual personalities of people it has met, by (Try to
>> imagine a Rogue variant who's a large, obese looking alien with
>> tentacles.)
>
> Now try to imagine her drawn by Jim Lee, wearing leather, spandex, and
> lots of pockets. :-)
With lots of butt shots and soles of her tentacle shoes.
>
>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
>> based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to
>> the Emerald Eye?
>
> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
SWEET!
>
>> - Hawkboy and Hawkgirl: Feitherian descendents, one with avian
>> telepathy, one as a shape changer
>> - Chemical King: test tube/chemistry set scientific type
>> - Homo Magi descendent
>> - Degaton 5: descendant of Per Degaton, possibly with natural time
>> manipulation powers.
>> - Vandal Savage: still alive?
>
> Oh, sure--I'd see him as a cheif arch-nemesis of the team, perhaps
> their Universo type figure.
>
>> - Thunderbolt: descendent of Jay Garrick
>> - BEM: Bug Eyed Monster (Gates?)
>> - Charma: en exiled Amazonian with empathic ability to control men
>> and instill hatred in women.
>> - Apollo: an exiled Amazonian male with empathic ability to control
>> women.
>> - Monkey Boy: an intelligent simian
>> - Atlantean descendant
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> - What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him
>> rich in this universe?
>
> Kooky as it sounds, I'd still love to have it at least hinted that
> R.J. is a time-lost FDR. :-)
Hmmm..... I'm going back to the origin for the JSA that involves FDR -
anything in that near-death experience that says he actually came forward in
time instead? Anything in his life? How exactly did he die anyway? Where
was Elenor? Was the door locked? ;-)
Brian Doyle
"Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1tjlr$1ncvjt$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Ken Arromdee wrote:
> > In article <c1r3fr$1lbf6h$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> JSA Technology:
> >
> > Phantom Lady's black light.
> >
> >> - Homo Magi descendent
> >
> > Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
>
> Well Zatara is supposed to have been descended from them isnt he? At
least
> slightly?
I thought Zatanna got her homo magi side from Sindella, not Zatara.
Brian Doyle
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> > Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
> >
> > (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
Legion
> > thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>
> Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
> >
> > Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>
> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
Star Legion
All Star Legion
Constellation :)
> > - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
That just sounds... I dunno, kinky....
> > - Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more
significant
> > in this 30th century.
>
> Agreed, and let's have Gotham become the uber-megalopolis, with a
> Metropolis and New York district, etc.
Gothamopolis?
> > - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>
> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
I'd say so too.
> > - *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
>
> Sure. I think everyone who wants to should be able to be married.
>
> *Cough*.
The next sound you hear will be George W Bush's Marital Marshalls knocking
at your door....
> > - Star Boy: Ted Knight's or Sylvester Pemberton's descendent, who
possibly
> > works in symbiosis with a descendent of the Earth 2 Starro (and possibly
> > permanently fused to his face)
I hadn't thought of him being a Knight descendent. I thought the fun there
could be that the "Star" aspect name is based solely from the alien side,
not the human
> > - Sympath, an alien empath from the same world as the alien who stole
part
> > of Robin's life essence in an old "Worlds Finest" story. (Can create
virtual
> > personalities of people it has met, by (Try to imagine a Rogue variant
who's
> > a large, obese looking alien with tentacles.)
>
> Now try to imagine her drawn by Jim Lee, wearing leather, spandex, and
> lots of pockets. :-)
I now have a image in my head that makes me want to be ill. Where _did_ I
put that mental floss!
> > - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
based,
> > and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to the Emerald
> > Eye?
>
> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
I see the Eye being the Lantern in disguise, following an... "incident" in
the past (our future) resulting in Green Lantern being banned from huamn
space. Leave it nice and vague.
> > - Chemical King: test tube/chemistry set scientific type
I still like his catalysis powers
George Grattan
She did, but IIRC, it was Zatara's own search for the source of his
mystic abilities (inherited from his own grandfather, I think), that
led him into contact with Sindella and the Homo Magi. I think the idea
was that he was himself descended from Homo Magi stock through their
interbreeding with European Romany--so Zatanna got a double dose, as it
were (though a much-diluted one from her paternal side.)
Of course, none of this may apply to what was Earth 2, since we never
got Zatanna nor the Homo Magi there. But for our purposes it's fairly
safe to imagine they were around in some form there, too.
Wow. Now that I'm thinking about all of this, it occurs to me how
singularly surprising it is that Roy Thomas never seems to have even
thought to come up with an E2 Zatanna when he was putting together
Infinity, Inc. Since the E1 Zee is quite possibly the first
second-generation superhero descended from a pre-existing character in
DC's history, that seems....odd. :-)
George Grattan
<michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> JSA Technology:
>>> - Cosmic Energy (Starman)
>>> - 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
>>> - Miralco
>>
>> Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps it's
>> become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used especially
>> by criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to combat?
>
> Nice twist.
Well, we have to get the "drugs are bad" messages in wherever we can, right?
>
>>
>>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
>>> - Immortality Vitamin from the Amazons
>>> Retro-futurism with tech:
>>> - Rocket packs (for propulsion)
>>> - Mechanical technology
>>> - Aasimovian Atomic Energy
>>> - Magitech ( a result of the Homo Magi never leaving earth)
>>> - Other strange Amazonian technology (telepathy globe? What was it
>>> called?)
>>
>> The Magic Sphere. We could call it the Amazonian Omnicom, and it could
>> go horribly insane at one point and become Omnicomputo. :-)
>
> Amazomnicomputo?
I see you that and raise it by the names given to the hapless mind
slaves Amazomnicomputo creates out of humans: Amazomnizombies.
>
>>
>>> - Purple Ray
>>
>> Needs to be used within strict storytelling limits, of course. Hmm.
>> If the Amazons colonize Venus as Paradise Planet, then perhaps a
>> Venusian moon becomes their Reformation Island (Reformation Rock),
>> this Legion's version of Takron-Galtos. (Though having it so close to
>> the home world would, of course, prove to be a bad idea.)
>
> Well Venus does indeed need a moon, as it doesn't have one. Maybe the
> (artificial/new) moon is where the *men* live, not an island.
You know, I was fairly sure that our Venus doesn't have a moon when I
typed that, but couldn't be bothered to check. Shame on me, I know.
But this just lets us have the Amazons of E2 create one or more
Venusian moons for their purposes--reformatory planet, male planet,
training planet, whatever.
>
>>
>>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
>>> based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to
>>> the Emerald Eye?
>>
>> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>
> SWEET!
Thanks, I kinda liked that one, too. Seems like a natural. And it
strikes me that it could be our way into the Mallor dynasty idea, as
well--as we could have both of them use some combination of shadow and
green energies in their powers--a dysfunctional Grev and Tasmia, with
aspects of Dragonmage and Sarya thrown in, to play out the GL/Starheart
legacies.
>
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>>
>>> - What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him
>>> rich in this universe?
>>
>> Kooky as it sounds, I'd still love to have it at least hinted that
>> R.J. is a time-lost FDR. :-)
>
> Hmmm..... I'm going back to the origin for the JSA that involves FDR -
> anything in that near-death experience that says he actually came forward in
> time instead? Anything in his life? How exactly did he die anyway? Where
> was Elenor? Was the door locked? ;-)
Oooh. Forget what I said about FDR as R.J.-- I want Eleanor as R.J.,
now (they kinda look alike, and it's long past time she got to found a
superhero dynasty, considering her husband got to do it twice...)
No, seriously: the JSA origin has the Atom taking the spear blow that
was meant to kill FDR and nearly dying--I don't think FDR himself gets
hit at all, though we can certainly play around with whatever mystic
energies were afoot there. (Does the future vision of the United
Planets influence FDR to leave instructions behind for Truman to throw
the full weight of sole superpower US into the United Nations charter?
Do similar notes/journals influence Truman's nascent steps regarding
civil rights? etc.) IIRC, it's Paula (Tigress) Brooks who is actually
killed at one point by a Valkryie's spear, and then brought back
somewhat the morally worse for wear.
George Grattan
>
> "George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>>
>>> (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
> Legion
>>> thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>>
>> Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>>
>>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>
>> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
>> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
>> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>
> Star Legion
>
> All Star Legion
I like this one, despite my silly fondness for the LASSH acronym.
>
> Constellation :)
Which should, of course, be the nickname for their lead cruiser. Though
we'll go with Constellation Racer. :-)
>
>>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
>
> That just sounds... I dunno, kinky....
Zinc and Kegels?
>
>>> - Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more
> significant
>>> in this 30th century.
>>
>> Agreed, and let's have Gotham become the uber-megalopolis, with a
>> Metropolis and New York district, etc.
>
> Gothamopolis?
Just try saying that out loud. Sounds like either a Muppet or a
glandular disorder. Or both. :-)
>
>
>>> - *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
>>
>> Sure. I think everyone who wants to should be able to be married.
>>
>> *Cough*.
>
> The next sound you hear will be George W Bush's Marital Marshalls knocking
> at your door....
Three words for that:
Bring 'em on.
>
>>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
> based,
>>> and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to the Emerald
>>> Eye?
>>
>> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>
> I see the Eye being the Lantern in disguise, following an... "incident" in
> the past (our future) resulting in Green Lantern being banned from huamn
> space. Leave it nice and vague.
Oooh--I like that--Jade Empress inherits the lantern itself somehow (or
unearths it, Kinetix style), and claims it from her brother as her sole
heritage. He seeks out the direct source of the Starheart itself
through mystic means.
George Grattan
> In article <c1tjlr$1ncvjt$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> - Homo Magi descendent
>>> Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
>> Well Zatara is supposed to have been descended from them isnt he? At least
>> slightly?
>
> I don't know, but that does bring up the point that what Earth Zatara is on
> hasn't been very clear. He was treated as an Earth-1 character when Zatanna
> was introduced, but was published in the 1940s. And I *think* he got a cameo
> in All-Star Squadron.
A few of them, in fact, and some lines of dialogue, too. There's no
doubt there was an Earth 2 Zatara--but we don't know if he was
descended from/connected to any Homo Magi that may have also been on
that earth, and we certainly never found out what happened to him.
Dan McEwen
news:c1rvq4$tct$1...@blue.rahul.net:
> In article <c1r3fr$1lbf6h$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>JSA Technology:
>
> Phantom Lady's black light.
>
>>- Homo Magi descendent
>
> Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
Hard to tell. I know Zatara married a Homo magi (on Earth-1, of
course), but it seemed to me that it might have been part of his own
background. I might be misremembering,
>>- Atlantean descendant
>
> Wouldn't that be Earth-1 too? I don't recall any Atlantis in Earth-2
> (and especially not for Aquaman).
Aquaman came from Atlantis, even on Earth-2. As I understood it,
everything about the E-2 Aquaman was rolled into the E-1 version.
>>- A Legionnaire that embodies an 'obscure' socio-political though,
>>like Communism, Fascism, Ghibellinism, Albigensian, or other?
>
> The problem with this kind of character is that half the time the
> writer puts it in because he himself believes in the philosophy the
> character espouses. This leads to characters not seeing flaws in
> their philosophy or becoming immune to some of its consequences.
While true, I think the problem isn't even only this. Characters like
this are often only one-note, defined by the philosophy rather than by
themselves. (Obviously, this isn't always true; Colossus was
technically a Communist, but that was by birth and didn't show through
in his character.)
Dan McEwen
> In article <c1tjlr$1ncvjt$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> Michael Pastor <michael_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> - Homo Magi descendent
>>> Isn't that Earth-1? Use someone with Dr. Fate's powers instead.
>>Well Zatara is supposed to have been descended from them isnt he? At
>>least slightly?
>
> I don't know, but that does bring up the point that what Earth Zatara
> is on hasn't been very clear. He was treated as an Earth-1 character
> when Zatanna was introduced, but was published in the 1940s. And I
> *think* he got a cameo in All-Star Squadron.
He showed up in a few A-SS stories, so he was definitely there. And, of
course, he first appeared early on in Action Comics.
Dan McEwen
> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>
> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
Maybe Legion of All-Star Heroes (LASH)?
>> - Vandal Savage: still alive?
>
> Oh, sure--I'd see him as a cheif arch-nemesis of the team, perhaps
> their Universo type figure.
Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's showing
up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will definitely survive
the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy doesn't age anymore, but
does that mean he's unkillable?
John Duncan Yoyo
wrote:
>Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's showing
>up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will definitely survive
>the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy doesn't age anymore, but
>does that mean he's unkillable?
>
Perhaps he could be badly enough injured to be out of commission for a
few centuries.
I a similar picture to the immortal character from Sandman who is the
last one Death pics up before she leaves Destiny alone to turn out the
lights on the Universe.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
Sean MacDonald
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:404259e5$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
Not necessarily. IIRC, the Golden Age Aquaman (and therefore, the Earth-2
Aquaman, one presumes) had no real connection to Atlantis. However, one
Golden Age story had Superman meeting some traditional-style mermaids, so
there's one aquatic possibility.
--
-Sean MacDonald
"The world began to change and without a word of explanation,
Something very strange started beckoning to you. When they came
to move your things you had packed a suitcase full of memories.
Nothing else to bring, except a different point of view." --Kansas
Sean MacDonald
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:40429a67$0$3079$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> On 2004-02-29 20:28:35 -0500, arro...@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee)
said:
> > I don't know, but that does bring up the point that what Earth Zatara is
on
> > hasn't been very clear. He was treated as an Earth-1 character when
Zatanna
> > was introduced, but was published in the 1940s. And I *think* he got a
cameo
> > in All-Star Squadron.
>
> A few of them, in fact, and some lines of dialogue, too. There's no
> doubt there was an Earth 2 Zatara--but we don't know if he was
> descended from/connected to any Homo Magi that may have also been on
> that earth, and we certainly never found out what happened to him.
It was suggested that Zatara migrated (along with Air Wave I, apparently)
from Earth 2 to Earth 1 at some unspecified time. However, I believe this
suggestion occurred before the whole Homo Magi storyline. Obviously, it
would be troublesome to say that Zatara (born on Earth 2, now living on
Earth 1) is descended from a race that exists only on Earth 1. My solution
would be to say that Zatara migrated to Earth 2 *from* Earth 1 originally,
then went back to his homeworld (Earth 1).
Sean MacDonald
"Dan McEwen" <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns949EDD200B0B1d...@130.133.1.4...
> arro...@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote in
> news:c1rvq4$tct$1...@blue.rahul.net:
> > Wouldn't that be Earth-1 too? I don't recall any Atlantis in Earth-2
> > (and especially not for Aquaman).
>
> Aquaman came from Atlantis, even on Earth-2. As I understood it,
> everything about the E-2 Aquaman was rolled into the E-1 version.
Okay, I've gone to the Aquaman FAQ (or the Aquaman Review page of tegan's
site, actually). In his first appearance, Aquaman tells of his father, a
famous undersea explorer, who discovered Atlantis and taught his son to live
under the ocean. Note that this does not imply that Aquaman has any
Atlantean heritage. Aquaman has a "Radio Television" in his lair. The lair
is described as "an ancient temple of lost Atlantis, long submerged and
forgotten, where he keeps his stock of scientific equipment!" And then
Aquaman discovers the city one day and agrees to satisfy the people's
curiousity about the surface animals. So, there is a sort of domed Atlantis
undersea, but Aquaman has no relation to it. Furthermore, the Atlanteans are
air-breathers. (More Fun #87) Aquaman says "The operation my father
performed on me is known only to one living surgeon!" This makes it clear
that the Golden Age Aquaman is not Atlantean. He's an American who can live
underwater (Adventure #162, March 1951).
Furthermore, he tends not to use aquatic telepathy; instead, he communicates
in non-powered ways with his finny friends, though in More Fun #100,
Aquaman suddenly has "Mysterious Magic" that allows him to summon aid from
the fish. This is different from previous stories, where he can talk to
fish, but not summon them to him.
And his recurring sidekick seems to be Ark the sea lion, not Topo the
octopus or Tusky the walrus. So, the Golden Age Aquaman is quite different
from the Earth-1 Aquaman in ways other than glove color.
Dan McEwen
news:jcd540lvrt4g3it7n...@4ax.com:
> On 1 Mar 2004 02:57:07 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyb...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's
>>showing up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will
>>definitely survive the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy
>>doesn't age anymore, but does that mean he's unkillable?
>>
> Perhaps he could be badly enough injured to be out of commission for a
> few centuries.
>
> I a similar picture to the immortal character from Sandman who is the
> last one Death pics up before she leaves Destiny alone to turn out the
> lights on the Universe.
I always figured he was a special case because Death made the active
choice not to take him. I guess it's possible she might do the same for
Savage, but I can't imagine why. I suppose it could be possible that if
he is that badly injured that he reincarnates like the Immortal Man.
Brian Doyle
> >> - Vandal Savage: still alive?
> >
> > Oh, sure--I'd see him as a cheif arch-nemesis of the team, perhaps
> > their Universo type figure.
>
> Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's showing
> up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will definitely survive
> the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy doesn't age anymore, but
> does that mean he's unkillable?
Basically yes, he's already well over 70,000 years old IIRC, so I have much
less of an issue with him still being around, than with Ra's who we knew
from his very first story, WAS aging and knew his end was in sight, even
relatively speaking.
Vandal Savage has a regenerative power which he's had for millenia and is
purely internal. Ra's needs an external chemical bath to be within range
whenever he is injured, and knews that it is already failing him. Using Ra's
required several rather dumb new abilities to be built in (sentient blood,
armies of clones) to the point that it might as well not have been Ra's and
I contine to wish it hadn't been.
Brian Doyle
"John Duncan Yoyo" <john-dun...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jcd540lvrt4g3it7n...@4ax.com...
> On 1 Mar 2004 02:57:07 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyb...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's showing
> >up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will definitely survive
> >the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy doesn't age anymore, but
> >does that mean he's unkillable?
> >
> Perhaps he could be badly enough injured to be out of commission for a
> few centuries.
>
> I a similar picture to the immortal character from Sandman who is the
> last one Death pics up before she leaves Destiny alone to turn out the
> lights on the Universe.
When was THAT scene shown? We know that Hob is still around at the end of
the Sandman run, but I don't recall him being there at any glimpse of the
end of time (like in "Books of Magic"). Nor would I imagine he'd want to be
around that long.....
George Grattan
>
>
>
>
> "George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:40429a67$0$3079$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>> On 2004-02-29 20:28:35 -0500, arro...@violet.rahul.net (Ken Arromdee)
> said:
>
>>> I don't know, but that does bring up the point that what Earth Zatara is
> on
>>> hasn't been very clear. He was treated as an Earth-1 character when
> Zatanna
>>> was introduced, but was published in the 1940s. And I *think* he got a
> cameo
>>> in All-Star Squadron.
>>
>> A few of them, in fact, and some lines of dialogue, too. There's no
>> doubt there was an Earth 2 Zatara--but we don't know if he was
>> descended from/connected to any Homo Magi that may have also been on
>> that earth, and we certainly never found out what happened to him.
>
> It was suggested that Zatara migrated (along with Air Wave I, apparently)
> from Earth 2 to Earth 1 at some unspecified time.
Yes, I recall that, but given that we never saw it under Thomas'
official edicts on such matters, I'd say there's little evidence for it.
> However, I believe this
> suggestion occurred before the whole Homo Magi storyline. Obviously, it
> would be troublesome to say that Zatara (born on Earth 2, now living on
> Earth 1) is descended from a race that exists only on Earth 1. My solution
> would be to say that Zatara migrated to Earth 2 *from* Earth 1 originally,
> then went back to his homeworld (Earth 1).
Seems far, far easier to simply say there was an E2 Zatara, partially
descended from the Homo Magi as his E1 counterpart was. There were
Atlanteans and Amazons on each earth, along with Aquamen and Wonder
Women on each, so why not Zatara?
George Grattan
> George Grattan <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in
> news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com:
>> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>
>> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
>> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
>> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>
> Maybe Legion of All-Star Heroes (LASH)?
Perfect solution.
>
>>> - Vandal Savage: still alive?
>>
>> Oh, sure--I'd see him as a cheif arch-nemesis of the team, perhaps
>> their Universo type figure.
>
> Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's showing
> up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will definitely survive
> the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy doesn't age anymore, but
> does that mean he's unkillable?
I suppose so, yes, but it's not like anyone's telling stories with the
E2 Vandal Savage anyway. :-)
Michael Pastor
> "George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>>
>>> (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
>>> Legion thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>>
>> Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>>
>>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>
>> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
>> Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
>> All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
See, I thought that Society was the more important of the two words for this
version, but didn't want to smash Society and Legion in the same title.
Part of my reasoning was all the Secret Societies of Homo Magi, etc seem to
be cropping up thus far.
>
> Star Legion
>
> All Star Legion
Legion of All Stars?
>
> Constellation :)
Is there a precedence for Constellation that I am missing?
>
>>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
>
> That just sounds... I dunno, kinky....
Well it wasn't a contraceptive foam since he reproduced eventually. Soaking
in a contraceptive foam for that long wouldve made him permanently sterile I
would think. :-)
>
>>> - Gotham, because of the influence of many JSA natives, is more
>>> significant in this 30th century.
>>
>> Agreed, and let's have Gotham become the uber-megalopolis, with a
>> Metropolis and New York district, etc.
>
> Gothamopolis?
Hehehehe. Well, I was thinking that Metropolis and Gotham would be on par,
instead of substituted outright, but I can go with Gotham being the sole
survivor.
>
>
>>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>>
>> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
>> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>
> I'd say so too.
What would be a reasonable exemption?
>
>>> - *No* restriction on married teammates, but actually encouraged?
>>
>> Sure. I think everyone who wants to should be able to be married.
>>
>> *Cough*.
>
> The next sound you hear will be George W Bush's Marital Marshalls
> knocking at your door....
Refer to JLA 2000 for an interesting take on those attitudes actually. I
really wasn't connecting that idea to the current politico view.
>
>>> - Star Boy: Ted Knight's or Sylvester Pemberton's descendent, who
>>> possibly works in symbiosis with a descendent of the Earth 2 Starro
>>> (and possibly permanently fused to his face)
>
> I hadn't thought of him being a Knight descendent. I thought the fun
> there could be that the "Star" aspect name is based solely from the
> alien side, not the human
Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
>
>>> - Sympath, an alien empath from the same world as the alien who
>>> stole part of Robin's life essence in an old "Worlds Finest" story.
>>> (Can create virtual personalities of people it has met, by (Try to
>>> imagine a Rogue variant who's a large, obese looking alien with
>>> tentacles.)
>>
>> Now try to imagine her drawn by Jim Lee, wearing leather, spandex,
>> and lots of pockets. :-)
>
> I now have a image in my head that makes me want to be ill. Where
> _did_ I put that mental floss!
>
>>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
>>> based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to
>>> the Emerald Eye?
>>
>> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>
> I see the Eye being the Lantern in disguise, following an...
> "incident" in the past (our future) resulting in Green Lantern being
> banned from huamn space. Leave it nice and vague.
Keeping the Green Lantern ban despite the differences? Maybe a ban on the
family line with active powers?
>
>>> - Chemical King: test tube/chemistry set scientific type
>
> I still like his catalysis powers
Oh I wasn't dropping them. I'm just picturing the crew cut 1950's
stereotypical chemistry/physics teacher with the pocket protector standing
behind that tall sink counter desk from high school (who was still teaching
in the 1980s when I took physics).
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> On 2004-02-29 17:31:49 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JSA Technology:
>>>> - Cosmic Energy (Starman)
>>>> - 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
>>>> - Miralco
>>>
>>> Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps
>>> it's become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used
>>> especially by criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to combat?
>>
>> Nice twist.
>
> Well, we have to get the "drugs are bad" messages in wherever we can,
> right?
I wouldn't be against that actually, if only to expose the hypocrisy of the
message in a society ruled by perscription drugs for health reasons. Might
make for an interesting parallel. Perhaps a movement of 'chemically pure'
human beings?
Love it. All those satellite islands of the pre-crisis Paradise Island as
new moons. (It is said that Venus requires a moon if it ever plans on
having a stable atmosphere actually).
>
>>
>>>
>>>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
>>>> based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to
>>>> the Emerald Eye?
>>>
>>> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>>
>> SWEET!
>
> Thanks, I kinda liked that one, too. Seems like a natural. And it
> strikes me that it could be our way into the Mallor dynasty idea, as
> well--as we could have both of them use some combination of shadow and
> green energies in their powers--a dysfunctional Grev and Tasmia, with
> aspects of Dragonmage and Sarya thrown in, to play out the
> GL/Starheart legacies.
Don't forget Obsidian in that obvious parallel.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>>
>>>> - What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him
>>>> rich in this universe?
>>>
>>> Kooky as it sounds, I'd still love to have it at least hinted that
>>> R.J. is a time-lost FDR. :-)
>>
>> Hmmm..... I'm going back to the origin for the JSA that involves
>> FDR - anything in that near-death experience that says he actually
>> came forward in time instead? Anything in his life? How exactly
>> did he die anyway? Where was Elenor? Was the door locked? ;-)
>
> Oooh. Forget what I said about FDR as R.J.-- I want Eleanor as R.J.,
> now (they kinda look alike, and it's long past time she got to found a
> superhero dynasty, considering her husband got to do it twice...)
>
> No, seriously: the JSA origin has the Atom taking the spear blow that
> was meant to kill FDR and nearly dying--I don't think FDR himself gets
> hit at all, though we can certainly play around with whatever mystic
> energies were afoot there. (Does the future vision of the United
> Planets influence FDR to leave instructions behind for Truman to throw
> the full weight of sole superpower US into the United Nations charter?
> Do similar notes/journals influence Truman's nascent steps regarding
> civil rights? etc.) IIRC, it's Paula (Tigress) Brooks who is actually
> killed at one point by a Valkryie's spear, and then brought back
> somewhat the morally worse for wear.
What story was that? I don't remember that last bit at all, but I wasn't
getting Young All Stars towards the end there.
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> On 1 Mar 2004 02:57:07 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyb...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Doesn't this present the same problem others have had with Ra's
>> showing up recently in Legion? It tells us that Savage will
>> definitely survive the next 1000 years. I understand that the guy
>> doesn't age anymore, but does that mean he's unkillable?
>>
> Perhaps he could be badly enough injured to be out of commission for a
> few centuries.
Oh he has gone through many periods of 'convalescence' before in just our
history. Of course, a fight between he and Per Degaton could throw him a
few centuries in the future, with revenge against Degaton 5 on his mind,
bringing him in contact with the Legion...
michael j pastor
Brian Doyle
> > Well, we have to get the "drugs are bad" messages in wherever we can,
> > right?
>
> I wouldn't be against that actually, if only to expose the hypocrisy of
the
> message in a society ruled by perscription drugs for health reasons.
Might
> make for an interesting parallel. Perhaps a movement of 'chemically pure'
> human beings?
They'll be the pale thin humans with the hacking coughs and boils, right? :)
(There are a fewvegetarians I know whom I would never suggest put themselves
forward as examples of the benefits of vegetarian living)
Brian Doyle
> Brian Doyle wrote:
> Constellation :)
>
> Is there a precedence for Constellation that I am missing?
Just that it's a group of stars.. All Star.... constellation... never
mind...
> >>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
> >
> > That just sounds... I dunno, kinky....
>
> Well it wasn't a contraceptive foam since he reproduced eventually.
Soaking
> in a contraceptive foam for that long wouldve made him permanently sterile
I
> would think. :-)
Look it's Kid Prophylactic! Or rather it's No-kid Prophylactic.. whose power
it is... to no have been born... at will.
> >>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
> >>
> >> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
> >> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
> >
> > I'd say so too.
>
> What would be a reasonable exemption?
Something like "technology which is irrevocably incorporated into their
bodies", like a cyborg, or Brainiac-5's forehead force field projector
thingie...
> Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
I know it's not the name he's best know by, but I always liked the name
Skyman. instantly retro and dated as soon as he took it/
> > I see the Eye being the Lantern in disguise, following an...
> > "incident" in the past (our future) resulting in Green Lantern being
> > banned from huamn space. Leave it nice and vague.
>
> Keeping the Green Lantern ban despite the differences? Maybe a ban on the
> family line with active powers?
That works too. Just something to keep the parallel obvious, but different.
George Grattan
Ken Arromdee wrote:
> In article <4043b416$0$3103$61fe...@news.rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>Seems far, far easier to simply say there was an E2 Zatara, partially
>>descended from the Homo Magi as his E1 counterpart was. There were
>>Atlanteans and Amazons on each earth, along with Aquamen and Wonder
>>Women on each, so why not Zatara?
>
>
> Because there would be no age difference, and because there's no Earth-2
> Zatanna in Infinity, Inc.
I have no idea what you're talking about with the age difference thing.
I'm not suggesting that we posit an E2 Zatanna (though I do find it
curious that Thomas never seems to have thought to introduce one), and
we *know* for a fact from A-SS that there *was* an E2 Zatara. We were
never told or shown that he migrated to E1--that was only speculation.
Given that there was an E2 Zatara, why not also an E2 Homo Magi, from
whom an E2 Legionnaire could have been descended?
>
> Of course, neither of these mean there *can't* be an Earth-2 Zatara. However,
> it would be a rather unusual usage of Earth-2.
Not unusual at all--most characters existed on both Earths 1 and 2 in
some form--folks like Dr. Fate were the exception, not the rule--and,
more importantly, we know there was an E2 Zatara from the books
themselves already. He was a member of the All-Star Squadron.
--
-------
Shalom, Peace, Salaam
George
George Grattan
Michael Pastor wrote:
> George Grattan wrote:
>
>>On 2004-02-29 17:31:49 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>><michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>
>>>>>JSA Technology:
>>>>>- Cosmic Energy (Starman)
>>>>>- 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
>>>>>- Miralco
>>>>
>>>>Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps
>>>>it's become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used
>>>>especially by criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to combat?
>>>
>>>Nice twist.
>>
>>Well, we have to get the "drugs are bad" messages in wherever we can,
>>right?
>
>
> I wouldn't be against that actually, if only to expose the hypocrisy of the
> message in a society ruled by perscription drugs for health reasons. Might
> make for an interesting parallel. Perhaps a movement of 'chemically pure'
> human beings?
Devoted to their leader, Mantis Morlo, the Anti-Chemical King. :-)
>
>>
>>
>>>>>- Purple Ray
>>>>
>>>>Needs to be used within strict storytelling limits, of course. Hmm.
>>>>If the Amazons colonize Venus as Paradise Planet, then perhaps a
>>>>Venusian moon becomes their Reformation Island (Reformation Rock),
>>>>this Legion's version of Takron-Galtos. (Though having it so close
>>>>to the home world would, of course, prove to be a bad idea.)
>>>
>>>Well Venus does indeed need a moon, as it doesn't have one. Maybe
>>>the (artificial/new) moon is where the *men* live, not an island.
>>
>>You know, I was fairly sure that our Venus doesn't have a moon when I
>>typed that, but couldn't be bothered to check. Shame on me, I know.
>>
>>But this just lets us have the Amazons of E2 create one or more
>>Venusian moons for their purposes--reformatory planet, male planet,
>>training planet, whatever.
>
>
> Love it. All those satellite islands of the pre-crisis Paradise Island as
> new moons. (It is said that Venus requires a moon if it ever plans on
> having a stable atmosphere actually).
Oh, I knew that, yeah, yeah. :-)
>
>
>>>>>- Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian, magically
>>>>>based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a connection to
>>>>>the Emerald Eye?
>>>>
>>>>Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>>>
>>>SWEET!
>>
>>Thanks, I kinda liked that one, too. Seems like a natural. And it
>>strikes me that it could be our way into the Mallor dynasty idea, as
>>well--as we could have both of them use some combination of shadow and
>>green energies in their powers--a dysfunctional Grev and Tasmia, with
>>aspects of Dragonmage and Sarya thrown in, to play out the
>>GL/Starheart legacies.
>
>
> Don't forget Obsidian in that obvious parallel.
That's who I was thinking off in both the shadow energies and the Jade
Empress' evil nature--she'd be the Obsidian figure psychologically.
>
>
>>>>>Questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>- What role does RJ Brande play in this version? What makes him
>>>>>rich in this universe?
>>>>
>>>>Kooky as it sounds, I'd still love to have it at least hinted that
>>>>R.J. is a time-lost FDR. :-)
>>>
>>>Hmmm..... I'm going back to the origin for the JSA that involves
>>>FDR - anything in that near-death experience that says he actually
>>>came forward in time instead? Anything in his life? How exactly
>>>did he die anyway? Where was Elenor? Was the door locked? ;-)
>>
>>Oooh. Forget what I said about FDR as R.J.-- I want Eleanor as R.J.,
>>now (they kinda look alike, and it's long past time she got to found a
>>superhero dynasty, considering her husband got to do it twice...)
>>
>>No, seriously: the JSA origin has the Atom taking the spear blow that
>>was meant to kill FDR and nearly dying--I don't think FDR himself gets
>>hit at all, though we can certainly play around with whatever mystic
>>energies were afoot there. (Does the future vision of the United
>>Planets influence FDR to leave instructions behind for Truman to throw
>>the full weight of sole superpower US into the United Nations charter?
>>Do similar notes/journals influence Truman's nascent steps regarding
>>civil rights? etc.) IIRC, it's Paula (Tigress) Brooks who is actually
>>killed at one point by a Valkryie's spear, and then brought back
>>somewhat the morally worse for wear.
>
>
> What story was that? I don't remember that last bit at all, but I wasn't
> getting Young All Stars towards the end there.
It's in the Axis Amerika arc, called "Atom and Evil", I think--don't
recall the issues, but it does have some neat bits, chiefly the idea
that that (very) near death experience changes Paula Brooks for the
worse. Arn Munro convinces the Valkryie to let her return from the dead,
and Brunhilde warns him: "No mortal returns from those shores
unchanged." Paula had always been a bit amoral, of course, but that
event causes her to leave the team and clearly sets her on the path to
become the Huntress.
George Grattan
Michael Pastor wrote:
> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
>>"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>>
>>>On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>>><michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>>>
>>>>(and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
>>>>Legion thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>>>
>>>Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>>
>>>>Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>>
>>>SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
>>>Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
>>>All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>
>
> See, I thought that Society was the more important of the two words for this
> version, but didn't want to smash Society and Legion in the same title.
> Part of my reasoning was all the Secret Societies of Homo Magi, etc seem to
> be cropping up thus far.
I just can't sign on at all to creating an "Earth-2 Legion" that's not
going to have the word "Legion" in its official name. Call me a
traditionalist. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>>- *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>>>
>>>I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
>>>somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>>
>>I'd say so too.
>
>
> What would be a reasonable exemption?
An energy containment suit so one could avoid floating around like an
invisible blob? Oh, wait....
Seriously, I think something along the lines of what was done in the
original version with Mon-El's serum, Wildfire's suit, Quislet's ship,
etc. Something that doesn't create member's power, but helps or even
outright allows him or her to use it truly effectively. (Though public
safety shouldn't be unreasonably compromised; if the breakdown of the
device would result in a direct threat to civilians, no go.)
George Grattan
Brian Doyle wrote:
>
>
> Look it's Kid Prophylactic! Or rather it's No-kid Prophylactic.. whose power
> it is... to no have been born... at will.
Wow. And Kid Psycho thought he had a limited shelf-life with *his*
powers....
>
>
>
>
>>Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
>
>
> I know it's not the name he's best know by, but I always liked the name
> Skyman. instantly retro and dated as soon as he took it/
I love that retro feel to the name, too--reminds me that we've got to
work Captain Future and Rocketeer analogues in here while we all wait
for the premiere of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow". Maybe we
have the history of E2's heroic age give a much greater place of
prominence to Skyman than we might have expected from the stories we
saw, positing him as the leader of what became an ongoing line of hero
teams stemming from the JSA/Infinity periods? Through in his time-tossed
adventures and his ties to Sir Justin and Kara Zor-L, and I've got a
nice view of a Skyman statue shaping up in Pemberton Plaza, right in
front of LASH HQ in Gothamopolis. :-)
Dan McEwen
True enough. BTW, was there ever an explicit mention that Savage
crossed between Earths, or were there always supposed to be two of him?
It's more significant a question for Savage over nearly any other
character due to his shared history with the definitely-Earth-1-based
Immortal Man.
Michael Pastor
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c20npe$1knast$2...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
>> Constellation :)
>>
>> Is there a precedence for Constellation that I am missing?
>
> Just that it's a group of stars.. All Star.... constellation... never
> mind...
Oh no! Not never mind. I over thought it and thought I was missing a
reference is all. That's a great name.
>
>>>>> - Ultra Man's suspended animation foam
>>>
>>> That just sounds... I dunno, kinky....
>>
>> Well it wasn't a contraceptive foam since he reproduced eventually.
>> Soaking in a contraceptive foam for that long wouldve made him
>> permanently sterile I would think. :-)
>
> Look it's Kid Prophylactic! Or rather it's No-kid Prophylactic..
> whose power it is... to no have been born... at will.
Immaculate Conception Lass?
>
>>>>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>>>>
>>>> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
>>>> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>>>
>>> I'd say so too.
>>
>> What would be a reasonable exemption?
>
> Something like "technology which is irrevocably incorporated into
> their bodies", like a cyborg, or Brainiac-5's forehead force field
> projector thingie...
Tharok.
>
>> Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
>
> I know it's not the name he's best know by, but I always liked the
> name Skyman. instantly retro and dated as soon as he took it/
I loved it too, including how self-aware he was about the kitschyness of it.
He was the perfect Leave It To Beaver Super-Hero.
>
>>> I see the Eye being the Lantern in disguise, following an...
>>> "incident" in the past (our future) resulting in Green Lantern being
>>> banned from huamn space. Leave it nice and vague.
>>
>> Keeping the Green Lantern ban despite the differences? Maybe a ban
>> on the family line with active powers?
>
> That works too. Just something to keep the parallel obvious, but
> different.
The same, but different.
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> Ken Arromdee wrote:
>> In article <4043b416$0$3103$61fe...@news.rcn.com>,
>> George Grattan <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Seems far, far easier to simply say there was an E2 Zatara,
>>> partially descended from the Homo Magi as his E1 counterpart was.
>>> There were Atlanteans and Amazons on each earth, along with Aquamen
>>> and Wonder Women on each, so why not Zatara?
>>
>>
>> Because there would be no age difference, and because there's no
>> Earth-2 Zatanna in Infinity, Inc.
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about with the age difference
> thing. I'm not suggesting that we posit an E2 Zatanna (though I do
> find it curious that Thomas never seems to have thought to introduce
> one), and we *know* for a fact from A-SS that there *was* an E2
> Zatara. We were never told or shown that he migrated to E1--that was
> only speculation. Given that there was an E2 Zatara, why not also an
> E2 Homo Magi, from whom an E2 Legionnaire could have been descended?
Are we sure we don't have the migration story? It's super-implied. There's
never been a mention of a different Zatara. The death in Swamp Thing was a
singular event.
>
>>
>> Of course, neither of these mean there *can't* be an Earth-2 Zatara.
>> However, it would be a rather unusual usage of Earth-2.
>
> Not unusual at all--most characters existed on both Earths 1 and 2 in
> some form--folks like Dr. Fate were the exception, not the rule--and,
> more importantly, we know there was an E2 Zatara from the books
> themselves already. He was a member of the All-Star Squadron.
As far as I am concerned, this jury of one decides, that he is the same
character. There's never even been the slightest hint of another. Dr. Fate
is another perfect example of a magically based migratory character. Hmmm..
Is there a trend with the magic based characters moving from Earth-2 to 1?
Spectre is another!
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> Michael Pastor wrote:
>
>> George Grattan wrote:
>>
>>> On 2004-02-29 17:31:49 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>>> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> JSA Technology:
>>>>>> - Cosmic Energy (Starman)
>>>>>> - 9th Metal (Hawkman) (for flight rings)
>>>>>> - Miralco
>>>>>
>>>>> Still dubious about this as a source for members' powers--perhaps
>>>>> it's become an all-purpose drug as others have suggested, used
>>>>> especially by criminals, giving the team worthier muggers to
>>>>> combat?
>>>>
>>>> Nice twist.
>>>
>>> Well, we have to get the "drugs are bad" messages in wherever we
>>> can, right?
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't be against that actually, if only to expose the hypocrisy
>> of the message in a society ruled by perscription drugs for health
>> reasons. Might make for an interesting parallel. Perhaps a
>> movement of 'chemically pure' human beings?
>
> Devoted to their leader, Mantis Morlo, the Anti-Chemical King. :-)
Word association after a night at Karaoke:
Chemical King, Miralco, Condo Arlik, Condo vs Morlo
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> - Purple Ray
>>>>>
>>>>> Needs to be used within strict storytelling limits, of course.
>>>>> Hmm. If the Amazons colonize Venus as Paradise Planet, then
>>>>> perhaps a Venusian moon becomes their Reformation Island
>>>>> (Reformation Rock), this Legion's version of Takron-Galtos.
>>>>> (Though having it so close to the home world would, of course,
>>>>> prove to be a bad idea.)
>>>>
>>>> Well Venus does indeed need a moon, as it doesn't have one. Maybe
>>>> the (artificial/new) moon is where the *men* live, not an island.
>>>
>>> You know, I was fairly sure that our Venus doesn't have a moon when
>>> I typed that, but couldn't be bothered to check. Shame on me, I
>>> know.
>>>
>>> But this just lets us have the Amazons of E2 create one or more
>>> Venusian moons for their purposes--reformatory planet, male planet,
>>> training planet, whatever.
>>
>>
>> Love it. All those satellite islands of the pre-crisis Paradise
>> Island as new moons. (It is said that Venus requires a moon if it
>> ever plans on having a stable atmosphere actually).
>
> Oh, I knew that, yeah, yeah. :-)
I don't know if multiple moons contributes or complicates having a stable
atmosphere, however. Any astronomers reading that would know?
>>
>>
>>>>>> - Starheart: descendent of Green Lantern/Jade/Obsidian,
>>>>>> magically based, and Asian in descent (Dragonmage). Is there a
>>>>>> connection to the Emerald Eye?
>>>>>
>>>>> Twin sister, controlling her own share of the power? Jade Empress?
>>>>
>>>> SWEET!
>>>
>>> Thanks, I kinda liked that one, too. Seems like a natural. And it
>>> strikes me that it could be our way into the Mallor dynasty idea, as
>>> well--as we could have both of them use some combination of shadow
>>> and green energies in their powers--a dysfunctional Grev and
>>> Tasmia, with aspects of Dragonmage and Sarya thrown in, to play out
>>> the GL/Starheart legacies.
>>
>>
>> Don't forget Obsidian in that obvious parallel.
>
> That's who I was thinking off in both the shadow energies and the Jade
> Empress' evil nature--she'd be the Obsidian figure psychologically.
Shrinking Violet, Jade, Obsidian
Oh jeez...does this establish a precedent for including the Ring Saga and
the eternal Ragnorak (1000 year) cycle too? ;-)
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> Michael Pastor wrote:
>
>> Brian Doyle wrote:
>>
>>> "George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>> news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>>>
>>>> On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>>>> <michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>>>>
>>>>> (and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
>>>>> Legion thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>>>>
>>>> Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>>>
>>>>> Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>>>
>>>> SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I
>>>> think Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion
>>>> of All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>>
>>
>> See, I thought that Society was the more important of the two words
>> for this version, but didn't want to smash Society and Legion in the
>> same title. Part of my reasoning was all the Secret Societies of
>> Homo Magi, etc seem to be cropping up thus far.
>
> I just can't sign on at all to creating an "Earth-2 Legion" that's not
> going to have the word "Legion" in its official name. Call me a
> traditionalist. :-)
Call me a traditionalist of a different color, wanting Society. ;-)
Damn I hate disagreeing with you. You win.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>>>>
>>>> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
>>>> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>>>
>>> I'd say so too.
>>
>>
>> What would be a reasonable exemption?
>
> An energy containment suit so one could avoid floating around like an
> invisible blob? Oh, wait....
LOL
>
> Seriously, I think something along the lines of what was done in the
> original version with Mon-El's serum, Wildfire's suit, Quislet's ship,
> etc. Something that doesn't create member's power, but helps or even
> outright allows him or her to use it truly effectively. (Though public
> safety shouldn't be unreasonably compromised; if the breakdown of the
> device would result in a direct threat to civilians, no go.)
Or mortal life. Hey, would a 24 hour charge count?
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Look it's Kid Prophylactic! Or rather it's No-kid Prophylactic..
>> whose power it is... to no have been born... at will.
>
> Wow. And Kid Psycho thought he had a limited shelf-life with *his*
> powers....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
>>
>>
>> I know it's not the name he's best know by, but I always liked the
>> name Skyman. instantly retro and dated as soon as he took it/
>
> I love that retro feel to the name, too--reminds me that we've got to
> work Captain Future and Rocketeer analogues in here while we all wait
> for the premiere of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".
Don't forget Adam Strange and Rann. And to take a nod from Kingdom Come,
maybe Ultra Man is the Earth-2 Adam Strange stylisticly. Hey, we want 9th
metal rings or belts, and rocket packs... And Superman was the Man of
Tomorrow. And which World's Fair was the World of Tomorrow? And how about
the Skylon and Spherion for inspiration for the Legion HQ? (Did I get their
names right?)
> Maybe we have the history of E2's heroic age give a much greater place of
> prominence to Skyman than we might have expected from the stories we
> saw, positing him as the leader of what became an ongoing line of hero
> teams stemming from the JSA/Infinity periods?
I don't know what you mean exactly by heroic age in that sentence. But I
already thought of him as that.
Sylvester Pemberton was the first kid sidekick of the first generation of
hereos who was actually the hero, just like the Teen Titans became, and just
like the Legion always were. His was also the first 'heir to the power'
other than Robin, Huntress and Power Girl (the Super Squad. Yes, I know
that Huntress was never part of the Super Squad, but she probably should
have been.) Power Girl we got. Robin and Huntress we don't yet. (And
remember I can't figure out the Grayson/Wayne Legacy yet)
Through in his
> time-tossed adventures and his ties to Sir Justin and Kara Zor-L,
Ok, who of the Seven Soldiers of Victory were time tossed besides Justin and
Syl?
and
> I've got a nice view of a Skyman statue shaping up in Pemberton
> Plaza, right in front of LASH HQ in Gothamopolis. :-)
The Pembertons are an LA/Hollywood Family though. Pemberton Plaza ala
Universal Studios and Tomorrow Land in Disneyland?
Skyman as Superboy, but in the significance this time around that Supergirl
had in LSH. Big time guest star, but not inspiration.
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
> In article <Xns949FEDE2421D1d...@130.133.1.4>,
> Dan McEwen <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> True enough. BTW, was there ever an explicit mention that Savage
>> crossed between Earths, or were there always supposed to be two of
>> him? It's more significant a question for Savage over nearly any
>> other character due to his shared history with the
>> definitely-Earth-1-based Immortal Man.
>
I think their only shared history was pre-Crisis, as the Forgotten Heroes
saga happened *just before* Crisis did. Remember that the Forgotten Heroes
were a team, and as a team, allied themselves with Brainiac (pre-Crisis
version) and Darkseid and Alexander Luthor. Immortal Man supposedly died
his last death in an anti-matter wave. [Just how did he come back in
Resurrection Man by the way?]
michael j pastor
George Grattan
Ken Arromdee wrote:
> In article <4043ec6a$0$3103$61fe...@news.rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <GGratone_NOSPAM_ATnetscapeDOTnet> wrote:
>
>>>Of course, neither of these mean there *can't* be an Earth-2 Zatara. However,
>>>it would be a rather unusual usage of Earth-2.
>>
>>Not unusual at all--most characters existed on both Earths 1 and 2 in
>>some form--folks like Dr. Fate were the exception, not the rule--and,
>>more importantly, we know there was an E2 Zatara from the books
>>themselves already. He was a member of the All-Star Squadron.
>
>
> But I can't think of *any* Earth-2 character who's a similar age to their
> Earth-1 counterpart, unless they have to be the same age because they're based
> off a real life historical or mythical figure. If Zatara existed on both
> Earths at the same age, that would be very unusual.
Why assume the E1 Zatara was active in W.W. II? We've got no evidence
for that and, in fact, have contrary evidence: a Superbaby story in
which the E1 Zatara, while a grown man (but young), meets young Kal-El.
There's simply no reason to think that the E1 Zatara wasn't the
requisite 20 years or so younger than his E2 counterpart, and the
Superbaby story confirms it, in fact, since it's set long after W.W. II,
of course.
>
> You may as well either assume that he moved (he's a magician and wouldn't
> have much trouble doing so), or that his appearance in All-Star Squadron was
> just a mistake.
Thomas tended not to make those kinds of mistakes on his own terms. I
don't see a problem here at all.
George Grattan
Michael Pastor wrote:
> George Grattan wrote:
>
>>Ken Arromdee wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4043b416$0$3103$61fe...@news.rcn.com>,
>>>George Grattan <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Seems far, far easier to simply say there was an E2 Zatara,
>>>>partially descended from the Homo Magi as his E1 counterpart was.
>>>>There were Atlanteans and Amazons on each earth, along with Aquamen
>>>>and Wonder Women on each, so why not Zatara?
>>>
>>>
>>>Because there would be no age difference, and because there's no
>>>Earth-2 Zatanna in Infinity, Inc.
>>
>>I have no idea what you're talking about with the age difference
>>thing. I'm not suggesting that we posit an E2 Zatanna (though I do
>>find it curious that Thomas never seems to have thought to introduce
>>one), and we *know* for a fact from A-SS that there *was* an E2
>>Zatara. We were never told or shown that he migrated to E1--that was
>>only speculation. Given that there was an E2 Zatara, why not also an
>>E2 Homo Magi, from whom an E2 Legionnaire could have been descended?
>
>
> Are we sure we don't have the migration story? It's super-implied. There's
> never been a mention of a different Zatara. The death in Swamp Thing was a
> singular event.
Which it would still be even if that character were "only" the E1
version, of course.
I don't know of any Zatara migration story. I do know of an E1
Zatara/Superbaby story. I also know of a Zatara on E2 (whom I obviously
think was "of" E2) in more than one A-SS story. We've got migration
stories--or mentions of them--for almost every other analogous situation
I can think of (Air Wave, Sargon, all the E2 to EX folks, Black
Canary)--I've always just assumed that the E2 Zatara faded away,
retired, was killed--whatever.
>
>
>>>Of course, neither of these mean there *can't* be an Earth-2 Zatara.
>>>However, it would be a rather unusual usage of Earth-2.
>>
>>Not unusual at all--most characters existed on both Earths 1 and 2 in
>>some form--folks like Dr. Fate were the exception, not the rule--and,
>>more importantly, we know there was an E2 Zatara from the books
>>themselves already. He was a member of the All-Star Squadron.
>
>
> As far as I am concerned, this jury of one decides, that he is the same
> character. There's never even been the slightest hint of another. Dr. Fate
> is another perfect example of a magically based migratory character. Hmmm..
> Is there a trend with the magic based characters moving from Earth-2 to 1?
> Spectre is another!
Dr. Fate *didn't* move from E2 to E1--ever. Spectre did, but only
because there were two Corrigans, so that rather queers the theory.
Sargon and Air Wave appear to have been straight transits, yes.
Here's my Occam's Razor take on it:
Given:
1) We know there was a Zatara on E2 who was a member of the A-SS.
2) We know there was a Zatara on E1 who met Superbaby as a young man.
3) We know that many characters existed on both earths.
4) We never saw or were told about (to my knowledge) a migration in this
case.
Then:
There were versions of Zatara on E2 and E1. We know the E1 version
married Sindella of the Homo Magic, from whom he was himself descended,
and had a daughter Zatanna, and that he died in ST #50. We don't know
what happened to the E2 Zatara, nor whether he had a child, nor whether
the Homo Magi even existed on E2.
But, for the purposes of this E2 Legion exercise, I say they did, since
we've got no evidence to the contrary and the precedence of
doppelgangers for Amazons and other secret societies on each world.
George Grattan
Michael Pastor wrote:
>
>
> Oh jeez...does this establish a precedent for including the Ring Saga and
> the eternal Ragnorak (1000 year) cycle too? ;-)
Good Lord. Seems like a natural on several levels, doesn't it? Flight
rings, power rings, etc.
George Grattan
Michael Pastor wrote:
> George Grattan wrote:
>
>>Brian Doyle wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Look it's Kid Prophylactic! Or rather it's No-kid Prophylactic..
>>>whose power it is... to no have been born... at will.
>>
>>Wow. And Kid Psycho thought he had a limited shelf-life with *his*
>>powers....
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Either way, and don't forget the Pembertons.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know it's not the name he's best know by, but I always liked the
>>>name Skyman. instantly retro and dated as soon as he took it/
>>
>>I love that retro feel to the name, too--reminds me that we've got to
>>work Captain Future and Rocketeer analogues in here while we all wait
>>for the premiere of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".
>
>
> Don't forget Adam Strange and Rann. And to take a nod from Kingdom Come,
> maybe Ultra Man is the Earth-2 Adam Strange stylisticly. Hey, we want 9th
> metal rings or belts, and rocket packs... And Superman was the Man of
> Tomorrow. And which World's Fair was the World of Tomorrow? And how about
> the Skylon and Spherion for inspiration for the Legion HQ? (Did I get their
> names right?)
Trylon and Perishpere--and I had the same thought, but worried that
having them inhabit the Squadron's old HQ would be a bit too on the
nose. I'd like to see them preserved into the Legion's time, yes--and
for that entire World's Fair area to become a museum of the "Age of
Heroes" or somesuch--rather like the Superman Museum always was in the
E1 version.
>
>
>
>>Maybe we have the history of E2's heroic age give a much greater place of
>>prominence to Skyman than we might have expected from the stories we
>>saw, positing him as the leader of what became an ongoing line of hero
>>teams stemming from the JSA/Infinity periods?
>
>
> I don't know what you mean exactly by heroic age in that sentence. But I
> already thought of him as that.
I mean the period of human history that saw the birth and then ongoing
role of metahumans. For the E1 Legion, it begins with Superboy, of
course, and moves through the JLA and presumably beyond. For and E2
Legion, it would need to begin with the JSA, A-SS, and, later, Infinity,
Inc.--and we could easily see Skyman emerging as a key figure in what
the E2 Legion's era has decided is the significant history of that period.
>
> Sylvester Pemberton was the first kid sidekick of the first generation of
> hereos who was actually the hero, just like the Teen Titans became, and just
> like the Legion always were. His was also the first 'heir to the power'
> other than Robin, Huntress and Power Girl (the Super Squad. Yes, I know
> that Huntress was never part of the Super Squad, but she probably should
> have been.)
Well, she couldn't have been-she wasn't around yet. By the time she
showed up they were simply full-on JSA members and no one was using the
term any more.
Power Girl we got. Robin and Huntress we don't yet. (And
> remember I can't figure out the Grayson/Wayne Legacy yet)
Which doesn't bother me in the slightest, oddly. I think it would be a
huge mistake to insist on a specific legacy for every JSAers or Golden
Ager--and even some of the major ones like Batman should be allowed to
lie fallow, I think.
>
>
> Through in his
>
>>time-tossed adventures and his ties to Sir Justin and Kara Zor-L,
>
>
> Ok, who of the Seven Soldiers of Victory were time tossed besides Justin and
> Syl?
>
They all were, by the Nebula Man--all ended up in different time periods
until rescued by the JSA and JLA. (The problem here is that we need a
retcon to that story if we want to get Sylvester into the Legion's
era--but I'm cool with that aspect of it. Or, alternatively, give him a
previously unrevealed time-travel adventure in his Skyman days, perhaps
just prior to his death. That could work well, too, and have a certain
poignancy, especially if he learns what he's going back to.)
>
> and
>
>>I've got a nice view of a Skyman statue shaping up in Pemberton
>>Plaza, right in front of LASH HQ in Gothamopolis. :-)
>
>
> The Pembertons are an LA/Hollywood Family though. Pemberton Plaza ala
> Universal Studios and Tomorrow Land in Disneyland?
Sure-but I think he'd warrant a stature at the Legion HQ, too.
>
> Skyman as Superboy, but in the significance this time around that Supergirl
> had in LSH. Big time guest star, but not inspiration.
Nicely parsed. PG becomes the Superboy figure, Sky becomes the Supergirl
figure in some ways. I like.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:4044b50a$0$3080$61fe...@news.rcn.com:
>...
> Why assume the E1 Zatara was active in W.W. II? We've got no
> evidence for that and, in fact, have contrary evidence: a
> Superbaby story in which the E1 Zatara, while a grown man (but
> young), meets young Kal-El. There's simply no reason to think
> that the E1 Zatara wasn't the requisite 20 years or so younger
> than his E2 counterpart, and the Superbaby story confirms it, in
> fact, since it's set long after W.W. II, of course.
Not that long, surely. A Google search indicates it was published
in 1981, which means that at the time the canonical 29-year-old
Superman was born in 1952. Someone in his 20s in WWII would be in
his 30s in the early 50s, and sixtyish as of the then-present.
That seems a reasonable fit for Zatara at the time.
I don't have strong feelings on the issue. (I'd actually always
assumed that the migration had been made explicit, and have been
surprised to discover as a result of this thread that it wasn't.)
But there wouldn't necessarily have been a very wide age gap
between Earth-1 and Earth-2 Zataras. Conversely there could have
been: if Zatara was, say, 29 at the time of his 1938 debut, and 20
in the Superbaby story, you could have two Zataras with a twentyish
year age gap while still having an Earth-1 Zatara of an appropriate
age to have a twentysomething daughter in the early 80s (and an
Earth-2 Zatara of a reasonable age to be retired or gone by the
then-present).
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Sean MacDonald
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns94A07D9C6564...@130.133.1.4...
> I don't have strong feelings on the issue. (I'd actually always
> assumed that the migration had been made explicit, and have been
> surprised to discover as a result of this thread that it wasn't.)
It was explicit, just not in any story. You had to go to text sources, such
as "Ask the Answer Man" columns and/or letters pages, to find out that he
had migrated in a story as yet untold (and a story that nobody had any real
interest in telling, obviously).
--
-Sean MacDonald
"The world began to change and without a word of explanation,
Something very strange started beckoning to you. When they came
to move your things you had packed a suitcase full of memories.
Nothing else to bring, except a different point of view." --Kansas
CleV
<GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Michael Pastor wrote:
>> Brian Doyle wrote:
>>>"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>>news:40425946$0$3076$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>>>>On 2004-02-28 17:07:52 -0500, "Michael Pastor"
>>>><michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>>>>Okay, a collection of all of the ideas presented thus far:
>>>>>(and I decided to post this today so that George has some positive
>>>>>Legion thoughts today after his reading Legion #30)
>>>>Awww, that's sweet. :-) (But I'm better now, anyway....)
>>>>>Possible name: Society of Super-Heroes
>>>>SSH? Sounds like they're telling crime to be quiet. :-) And I think
>>>>Legion needs to be in the title, somehow. Perhaps the Legion of
>>>>All-Star Super-Heroes? (LASSH?, sounds like LSH?)
>> See, I thought that Society was the more important of the two words for this
>> version, but didn't want to smash Society and Legion in the same title.
>> Part of my reasoning was all the Secret Societies of Homo Magi, etc seem to
>> be cropping up thus far.
>I just can't sign on at all to creating an "Earth-2 Legion" that's not
>going to have the word "Legion" in its official name. Call me a
>traditionalist. :-)
So far, I like All Star Legion the bestest :-)
Michael Pastor
ASL?
American Sign Language or, if you're in a chat room, age/sex/location? ;-)
michael j pastor
Wayne Garmil
<No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:c20npe$1knast$2...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
>> >>> - *Not* restricted by artificial powers?
>> >>
>> >> I'd stick with this restriction, personally, or at least modify it
>> >> somewhat but keep it active in some sense.
>> >
>> > I'd say so too.
>>
>> What would be a reasonable exemption?
>
>Something like "technology which is irrevocably incorporated into their
>bodies", like a cyborg, or Brainiac-5's forehead force field projector
>thingie...
I have to say, I like that DnA is having B5 use his force fields
offensively as he got used to having it basically internalized. When
it was external, it was just defence. I wonder if B5 has been studing
Sue Storm in those old FantasticFour comics he found in the archive :)
Wayne
Wayne Garmil
<GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>I love that retro feel to the name, too--reminds me that we've got to
>work Captain Future and Rocketeer analogues in here while we all wait
>for the premiere of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".
OH! Suggestion: have the E-2 Ferro be a Rocketeer analogue. He
already needs to wear a helmet, so it is not that far a stretch to
give it a fin and have him be a whiz at using a rocket pack. Make it
be a specialized one that can compensate for his sudden weight
increase when he armors-up.
Wayne
George Grattan
Sean MacDonald wrote:
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns94A07D9C6564...@130.133.1.4...
>
>
>>I don't have strong feelings on the issue. (I'd actually always
>>assumed that the migration had been made explicit, and have been
>>surprised to discover as a result of this thread that it wasn't.)
>
>
> It was explicit, just not in any story. You had to go to text sources, such
> as "Ask the Answer Man" columns and/or letters pages, to find out that he
> had migrated in a story as yet untold (and a story that nobody had any real
> interest in telling, obviously).
>
Can we get a citation on that? I'd obviously yield to the superior wit
and wisdom of Mr. Rozakis--just as I yield the principle to Mr.
Schiffer--as usual--that the Superbaby story itself doesn't truly
mitigate against a migration.
But, hey: all I flippin want is a Homo Magi civilization on Earth-2,
anyway, and it doesn't really matter whether or not Zatara migrated,
even if I tend to think it just lumps him in with losers like Sargon. At
least it would "explain" why we never saw an E2 Zatanna.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> But, hey: all I flippin want is a Homo Magi civilization on
> Earth-2, anyway, and it doesn't really matter whether or not
> Zatara migrated, even if I tend to think it just lumps him in
> with losers like Sargon. At least it would "explain" why we
> never saw an E2 Zatanna.
Given that Earth-2 had all the extra magic the Guardians shoved over
from Earth-1 (well, from Oa, which isn't Oa-1 since none of the other
universes had an Oa) supercharging its own base magic, you could
either argue 1) that if Earth-1 had Homo Magi, then certainly Earth-2
did also or b) Earth-2 never had magic restricted to a human
subspecies in the first place, hence the larger percentage of magic-
using and magic-based heroes in the JSA versus the JLA; gaining magic
on Earth-2 would be a more traditional mix of learning secret
knowledge, happening on ancient artifacts, encountering supernatural
creatures, and inborn talents (not necessarily concentrated in a
single population). Since you want a Homo Magi civilization in the
Earth-2 Legion, it seems natural to go with the first-- though you
could also have magic users separating themselves from mainstream
civilization during the intervening millennium.
Michael Pastor
Sweet! However, it doesn't need to compensate nearly as much as we have the
technology of 9th Metal, which does not seem to have any mass restrictions.
michael j pastor
Brian Doyle
> > OH! Suggestion: have the E-2 Ferro be a Rocketeer analogue. He
> > already needs to wear a helmet, so it is not that far a stretch to
> > give it a fin and have him be a whiz at using a rocket pack. Make it
> > be a specialized one that can compensate for his sudden weight
> > increase when he armors-up.
> >
>
> Sweet! However, it doesn't need to compensate nearly as much as we have
the
> technology of 9th Metal, which does not seem to have any mass
restrictions.
Why not just have Nth Lad, who is like Ferro but morphs to the antigravity
metal. He uses the jetpack for steering, since his metal form only
counteracts gravity, but retains (somehow) mass so he could be an effective
cannonball when need be..
George Grattan
I second the motion. "Nth Lad" has to be the best postmodern
retrofuturist superhero name anyone's come up with in a long, long
time. Earth human, perhaps descended from the Hall or Saunders family
line (but, please: no reincarnation), mutant ability to transform into
the widely-used anti-grav Nth metal and manipulate his mass, uses
powerful rocket tech (as allowed in our E2 rule set) to becoming
something like Stone Boy crossed with Ferro crossed with the Rocketeer
crossed with Colossus. Love it.
Given the SF/comics influences of Alex Raymond (Flash Gordon and the
Hawk-Men of Mongo, especially) on Hawkman, this is a natural way to
roll all those threads into one elegant figure. Hell, I already want an
Nth Lad miniseries...
(On, and for our purposes, of course the future E2 Feitherans Hawkgirl
and Hawkboy will owe a lot to Raymond's designs...)
--
Shalom, Peace, Salaam,
George
Brian Doyle
> > Why not just have Nth Lad, who is like Ferro but morphs to the
antigravity
> > metal. He uses the jetpack for steering, since his metal form only
> > counteracts gravity, but retains (somehow) mass so he could be an
effective
> > cannonball when need be..
>
> I second the motion. "Nth Lad" has to be the best postmodern
> retrofuturist superhero name anyone's come up with in a long, long
> time.
Ummm, thank you, I'm going to treat that as a compliment... a very
complicated, rather specific compliment mind you, but a compliment
nevertheless.
> Earth human, perhaps descended from the Hall or Saunders family line
Hal Pemberton Nolan (And he's always very specific about the middle name)
> (but, please: no reincarnation),
And keeping the Ferro Lad notion, should he have a twin? Evil or
otherwise.... Xander Nolan perhaps
Amen.
> mutant ability to transform into
> the widely-used anti-grav Nth metal and manipulate his mass, uses
> powerful rocket tech (as allowed in our E2 rule set) to becoming
> something like Stone Boy crossed with Ferro crossed with the Rocketeer
> crossed with Colossus. Love it.
That's about the size of it yep. :)
> Given the SF/comics influences of Alex Raymond (Flash Gordon and the
> Hawk-Men of Mongo, especially) on Hawkman, this is a natural way to
> roll all those threads into one elegant figure. Hell, I already want an
> Nth Lad miniseries...
And I want the DC Direct action figure!!!!
Michael Alan Chary
Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal in accord
with the other eight metals of classical science.
--
"The Pseudo Politically Correct term that I would use to describe the mind set
of postmodernism is "epistemologically challenged": a constitutional inability
to adopt a reasonable way to tell the good stuff from the bad stuff."
- Chip Morningstar
Brian Doyle
"Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c287lm$rar$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal in accord
> with the other eight metals of classical science.
It's been called both fairly interchangeably over many, many years.
"Ninth" may be technically correct, but "Nth" is cooler in this context, and
has that nice feeling of being a non specific number beyond however many
metals are known to actual metallurgy.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
Michael S. Schiffer
news:c288d5$5ph$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk:
> "Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:c287lm$rar$1...@panix3.panix.com...
>> Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal
>> in accord with the other eight metals of classical science.
> It's been called both fairly interchangeably over many, many
> years.
Was "Nth" ever used while Earth-2 was still in existence? My
recollection (which may be wrong) is that it's a post-Crisis retcon,
in which case it arguably doesn't fit with the idea of an Earth-2
Legion.
Michael Pastor
I disagree and think the Ninth Metal is the cooler of the two, as it was
already retro when it was created.
michael j pastor
George Grattan
>
> "George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:40477819$0$3090$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>> On 2004-03-03 19:51:07 -0500, "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk>
> said:
>
>>> Why not just have Nth Lad, who is like Ferro but morphs to the
> antigravity
>>> metal. He uses the jetpack for steering, since his metal form only
>>> counteracts gravity, but retains (somehow) mass so he could be an
> effective
>>> cannonball when need be..
>>
>> I second the motion. "Nth Lad" has to be the best postmodern
>> retrofuturist superhero name anyone's come up with in a long, long
>> time.
>
> Ummm, thank you, I'm going to treat that as a compliment... a very
> complicated, rather specific compliment mind you, but a compliment
> nevertheless.
Oh, it was absolutely meant as one.
(Though I'll admit that the phrase "postmodern retrofuturistic" is
probably unecessarily redundant, as I don't think one can be the latter
without being the former. While we're at this: does anyone here
remember the term coined a few years ago for the sense of nostalgia one
can have while thinking of past verisons of the future? I seem to
recall it showing up in a New Yorker article, but can't find it in a
quick search. I'm sure the Germans have a term for it, but I think
there's a specific English term as well....)
George Grattan
> Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal in
> accord with the other eight metals of classical science.
I know, but Ninth got bastardized to "Nth" fairly early on and the two
have shown up interchangably since then. (I have no idea which one is
currently, um, ascendant, since I long ago just started reading it as
"Nth" regardless of what was on the page....). For this retrofuturist
exercise, I think "Nth Lad" has more zip, but to each his own.
George Grattan
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
Dammit, Schiffer, you and your superior grasp of facts. (And that goes
for you too, Chary, as George Bailey would say....)
Okay, fine: "Ninth Lad" sounds terribly flat to me (where are the other
eight, one wonders?), but it's got the better pedigree. Maybe we make a
running meta-joke of how that's what he wants to be called, but it
keeps getting miswritten and mispoken as Nth Lad, and he finally just
gives up? :-)
Michael S. Schiffer
> On 2004-03-04 17:08:25 -0500, "Michael S. Schiffer"
><msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
>...
>> Was "Nth" ever used while Earth-2 was still in existence? My
>> recollection (which may be wrong) is that it's a post-Crisis
>> retcon, in which case it arguably doesn't fit with the idea of
>> an Earth-2 Legion.
> Dammit, Schiffer, you and your superior grasp of facts. (And
> that goes for you too, Chary, as George Bailey would say....)
George Bailey, Legionnaire:
"You sit around here and you spin your little webs and you think
the whole world revolves around you... In the whole vast
configuration of things, I'd say you were nothing but a scurvy
little spider." George Bailey to Spider-Girl, Adv. 323.
"One of us is going to jail, well it's not gonna be me." George
Bailey to Ultra Boy S/LSH #239, "Murder Most Foul".
"I know what I'm gonna do tomorrow and the next day and the next
year and the year after that." George Bailey after piercing the
Iron Curtain of Time.
"Why, the whole town knows you've been giving money to Violet",
Rokk Krinn to George Bailey, LSH v.4.
"What happened to your wings?" George Bailey to Bounty, LSH v.4.
"What do you want, Mary? Do you want the moon? If you want it, I'll
throw a lasso around it and pull it down for you. Hey. That's a
pretty good idea." George Bailey (or possibly Tom Bierbaum), LSH
v.4 #18.
> Okay, fine: "Ninth Lad" sounds terribly flat to me
And following the Latinate precedent of Ferro Lad doesn't help
much-- googling tells me that would be "Novo Lad", which doesn't
exactly roll trippingly off the tongue. Or we could make the
character a girl and get the invariably overestimated Nova Lass.[1]
An alternative Latin "ninth" gets us "Nono Lad", which seems to
speak more to the character's social/romantic life than his powers.
:-)
[1]Who, admittedly, would make a fair teammate for Cosmic Boy if
this Legion has one-- Rokk really was quite lucky that no one ever
took his name too literally. ("That one's called 'Cosmic Boy'-- I
don't know what he does, but we'd better hit him with everything
we've got, then go after the Kryptonians and the Daxamites." "I
don't know, boss-- *that* one's called 'Star Boy'. Maybe we should
make him number two?")
(where are
> the other eight, one wonders?)
Maybe he inherited the Metal Men? :-)
(Sure, they were from Earth-1. But after all the traffic from
Earth-2 to Earth-1, surely *someone* could have gone the other way.
And built a bunch more of them. Okay, it's a stretch.)
, but it's got the better
> pedigree. Maybe we make a running meta-joke of how that's what
> he wants to be called, but it keeps getting miswritten and
> mispoken as Nth Lad, and he finally just gives up? :-)
"There were only three spaces on the form."
"But why didn't you just write '9th'?"
"Um...."
Brian Doyle
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:4047ad8b$0$3070$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> On 2004-03-04 17:08:25 -0500, "Michael S. Schiffer"
> <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
>
> > "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> > news:c288d5$5ph$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk:
> >> "Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >> news:c287lm$rar$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> >
> >>> Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal
> >>> in accord with the other eight metals of classical science.
> >
> >> It's been called both fairly interchangeably over many, many
> >> years.
> >
> > Was "Nth" ever used while Earth-2 was still in existence? My
> > recollection (which may be wrong) is that it's a post-Crisis retcon,
"That, I did not know", as they say
> Okay, fine: "Ninth Lad" sounds terribly flat to me (where are the other
> eight, one wonders?),
George Rodd would explain that they've all been fused into him, along with
Colossus and probably Metamorpho....
Time to be Evillo
> but it's got the better pedigree. Maybe we make a
> running meta-joke of how that's what he wants to be called, but it
> keeps getting miswritten and mispoken as Nth Lad, and he finally just
> gives up? :-)
Kind of like the post Zero Hour Gil'Dan, who took a millenium to live down
the fact that the first prominent member of their species (in Invasion) had
cheerfully introduced himself as being a member of the Gil'Dishpan. :)
And before anyone says anything, I do know that the species first appeared
in the Pre-Zero hour Legion.
Michael Alan Chary
No, "Ninth" is cooler because it suggests erudition and education and a
knowledge of classical history ala a museum curator. "Nth" just
suggests some ignorant fool who didn't know why 9 was an important number.
>
>That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
>
Feel free :)
Michael Alan Chary
How about Hawklad? Or the Earth-2 Golden Eagle :)
Hey, you ever read Nth Man, the Ultimate Ninja?
Other possibllities:
Kid Spectre, Dr. Fate (though the helmet ages kids whouse it,leading to
the E-2 Kara red k story) Some Kid with the T-bolt.
Tom Galloway
Ken Arromdee <arro...@violet.rahul.net> wrote:
>But I can't think of *any* Earth-2 character who's a similar age to their
>Earth-1 counterpart, unless they have to be the same age because they're based
>off a real life historical or mythical figure. If Zatara existed on both
>Earths at the same age, that would be very unusual.
Vigilante. The Earth-1 version was introduced as an elderly retired hero
circa JLA #80, and since the Earth-2 version was lost back in time and
forgotten by everyone, er, at the time, it had to be a separate Earth-1
version.
tyg t...@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Michael Pastor
We have Hawkboy and Hawkgirl (Feitherians) already.
>
> Hey, you ever read Nth Man, the Ultimate Ninja?
>
> Other possibllities:
>
> Kid Spectre, Dr. Fate (though the helmet ages kids whouse it,leading
> to the E-2 Kara red k story) Some Kid with the T-bolt.
There is so much magic in the Earth-2 Universe (and makes me wonder about
the Golden Age producing it, or the Silver Age that allowed those characters
to survive).
Too many one-to-one ratios of JSA characters and we're just retreading. If
we were to expand it to All Star Squardron, it would be worse. And let's
not forget the possibility of villainous descendents or heirs to power
(especially with the Tbolt).
michael j pastor
Mr Vo
> Wow. Now that I'm thinking about all of this, it occurs to me how
> singularly surprising it is that Roy Thomas never seems to have even
> thought to come up with an E2 Zatanna when he was putting together
> Infinity, Inc. Since the E1 Zee is quite possibly the first
> second-generation superhero descended from a pre-existing character in
> DC's history, that seems....odd. :-)
Wasn't Zatara from Earth-2 and then migrated to Earth-1? It may have not
been addressed in a story, but I'm pretty sure it was unspoken canon during
All-Star Squadron that all Golden Age characters originated from Earth-2.
There was only one mystic powered Zatara and he was from Earth-2. If one
existed on Earth-1, who knows... but he was never shown.
So an Earth-2 Zatara offspring would be Zatanna's sister, not an analogue.
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Tom Galloway
George Grattan <GGratone_NOSPAM_ATnetscapeDOTnet> wrote:
>think was "of" E2) in more than one A-SS story. We've got migration
>stories--or mentions of them--for almost every other analogous situation
>I can think of (Air Wave, Sargon, all the E2 to EX folks, Black
>Canary)--I've always just assumed that the E2 Zatara faded away,
>retired, was killed--whatever.
I'm pretty sure there was never an explicit Air Wave migration story. The
"Whatever Happened to Air Wave I" story was set on Earth-1 with Superboy,
and that was AW I's only appearance alive post-Golden Age. If anything, due
to the problems introduced of Hal Jordan being named for Hal Jordan and their
being cousins, it's easier to assume that Air Wave was, other than perhaps
Aquaman, the last character to have a very close Earth-1 version of an
Earth-2 character introduced (Wildcat was earlier by a few years. :-)).
tyg t...@Panix.com
Brian Doyle
> >"Ninth" may be technically correct, but "Nth" is cooler in this context,
and
> >has that nice feeling of being a non specific number beyond however many
> >metals are known to actual metallurgy.
>
> No, "Ninth" is cooler because it suggests erudition and education and a
> knowledge of classical history ala a museum curator.
Classical hiustory I'll give you, but an _educated_ man would know that
there were more than eight metals! It'd be like Ron Karr calling himself
"World Boy" :)
> "Nth" just suggests some ignorant fool who didn't know why 9 was an
important number.
Or is making an alegbraic statement. His full name would have been "Nth Lad,
where N is an integer equal to (Known number of elemental metals+1)" :)
He would have been X Lad, but the Xavier Interplanetary Campus would have
sued.
Michael Pastor
> "Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:c28ri1$36j$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
>>> "Ninth" may be technically correct, but "Nth" is cooler in this
>>> context, and has that nice feeling of being a non specific number
>>> beyond however many metals are known to actual metallurgy.
>>
>> No, "Ninth" is cooler because it suggests erudition and education
>> and a knowledge of classical history ala a museum curator.
>
> Classical hiustory I'll give you, but an _educated_ man would know
> that there were more than eight metals! It'd be like Ron Karr calling
> himself "World Boy" :)
What were the eight metals? Maybe this is the clue we need to settle this.
michael j pastor
Michael Pastor
My own research only discovered 7 metals from Ancient Babylon: Silver,
Gold, Copper, Iron, Mercury, Lead and Tin.
michael j pastor
Sean MacDonald
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:4047ad8b$0$3070$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
too, Chary, as George Bailey would say....)
>
> Okay, fine: "Ninth Lad" sounds terribly flat to me (where are the other
> eight, one wonders?),
It reminds me of the Japanese cartoon, 8-Man (aka the Eighth Man).
--
-Sean MacDonald
"The world began to change and without a word of explanation,
Something very strange started beckoning to you. When they came
to move your things you had packed a suitcase full of memories.
Nothing else to bring, except a different point of view." --Kansas
Brian Doyle
> Michael Pastor wrote:
> My own research only discovered 7 metals from Ancient Babylon: Silver,
> Gold, Copper, Iron, Mercury, Lead and Tin.
Seven seems to be more popular certainly, according to my vast researches (A
quick google) some counts included brass, not being aware it was a
zinc/copper alloy, and the one that sort of broke the mould was platinum.
George Grattan
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
Michael, I already liked you a lot, but you've just made me like you a
whole lot more. (Don't know if I need to reveal much more than the fact
that my wife's name is Mary and I look a bit like Stewart to explain my
life-long connection to that film....)
George Bailey in the drug store, wishing on the Miracle Machine: "Wish
I had a million dollars. Hot Dog!"
Wait, that kinda would derail the story right there, wouldn't it?....
(Do they dance over the polymer shield at Harry's high school graduation?)
George Grattan
>
> How about Hawklad? Or the Earth-2 Golden Eagle :)
We'd already posited a Hawkgirl and Hawkboy (Feitherans), so Hawklad
might be too many birds of a feather flocking together. And I think
it's best for all concerned if we let poor Charlie Parker's ghost rest.
(That one, of course, not the other one....)
>
> Hey, you ever read Nth Man, the Ultimate Ninja?
Never heard of it.
>
> Other possibllities:
>
> Kid Spectre,
The mind boggles. We really want to give the spirit of vengenance and
the powers of God to an adolescent? :-)
> Dr. Fate (though the helmet ages kids whouse it,leading to the E-2 Kara
> red k story) Some Kid with the T-bolt.
I'd go for some kind of Nabu connection--though not a Dr. Fate, per se.
(I had suggested the idea that Nabu could function as the E2 Legion's
Mordru analogue, having become evil or chaotic or whatever by that
time--perhaps out of boredom.) And maybe a descendant of the T-Bolt
itself, somehow, could exist in the Legion's universe--their version of
Quislet, perhaps?
George Grattan
> In article <c288d5$5ph$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Brian Doyle <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> "Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:c287lm$rar$1...@panix3.panix.com...
>>
>>> Except that it wasn't the "Nth" metal. It was the *NINTH* metal in accord
>>> with the other eight metals of classical science.
>>
>> It's been called both fairly interchangeably over many, many years.
>>
>> "Ninth" may be technically correct, but "Nth" is cooler in this context, and
>> has that nice feeling of being a non specific number beyond however many
>> metals are known to actual metallurgy.
>
> No, "Ninth" is cooler because it suggests erudition and education and a
> knowledge of classical history ala a museum curator. "Nth" just
> suggests some ignorant fool who didn't know why 9 was an important
> number.
Be that as it may in regards to the original error, yes, "Nth"--for our
purposes--connotes ultimate extrapolation, which is a damn fine
aesthetic to foreground in a retrofuturistic exercise. :-)
Michael S. Schiffer
> On 2004-03-04 18:05:37 -0500, "Michael S. Schiffer"
><msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
>> George Grattan <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in
>> news:4047ad8b$0$3070$61fe...@news.rcn.com:
>...
>>> Dammit, Schiffer, you and your superior grasp of facts. (And
>>> that goes for you too, Chary, as George Bailey would say....)
>> George Bailey, Legionnaire:
><snip>
> Michael, I already liked you a lot, but you've just made me like
> you a whole lot more. (Don't know if I need to reveal much more
> than the fact that my wife's name is Mary and I look a bit like
> Stewart to explain my life-long connection to that film....)
I'm glad you liked it. (Though under the circumstances, I strongly
advise you not to entrust any Uncle Billy either of you might have
with any major financial responsibility.)
> George Bailey in the drug store, wishing on the Miracle Machine:
> "Wish I had a million dollars. Hot Dog!"
> Wait, that kinda would derail the story right there, wouldn't
> it?....
Well, it would have, except that Saturn Girl's telepathic block
made him forget it every time he returned to Bedford Falls.
Brian Doyle
> No, "Ninth" is cooler because it suggests erudition and education and a
> knowledge of classical history ala a museum curator.
I remember when I first read it, as a kid of about, what, 11, I assumed
that, since it was a metal which clearly broke the law of gravity and the
fact that even I knew there were may more than eight metals, there was no
reason for it to be called "Ninth metal" as in "relating to the number 9"
but "Ninth", as if it rhymed with "plinth". Since it was a meaningless
concept I assumed it was a meaningless name.
Just shows to go ya.
Michael Pastor
Only thing I found was 'steampunk' (to contrast with cyberpunk, which is the
diametric opposite).
http://www.web-dictionary.org/encyclopedia/st/Steampunk.html
michael j pastor
Brian Doyle
My favourite example of modern steampunk would be the excellent "Diffference
Engine" novel, which postulates what might have happened is Ada Lovelace and
Charles Babbage had managed to create a fully working difference engine at
the dawn of the British Industrial Revolution.
Michael S. Schiffer
Steampunk has broadened in a couple of different directions, but I
don't think either is general enough for George's purposes.
Depending on whether the emphasis is on the "steam" or the "punk",
it can to be applied to the transposition of a punk (or at least
outsider) outlook to the Steam Age (actual or altered by
retrofuturistic tech), to imagined high-tech based off of the Steam
Age without any special outsider status for the characters. (These
overlap-- "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" can fit under
either definition, for example.)
Most steampunk is potentially a special case of what George is
describing, or at least a related idea. George seems to be talking
more about the visions of the future actually imagined in the past,
whereas a lot of steampunk takes modern institutions and recasts
them in the past's terms-- e-mail via telegraphy (electric or
semaphore) combined with Babbage engines and that sort of thing.
Though not all-- many authors, like Moore, use ideas from Verne,
Wells, Kipling, etc. in shaping their worlds, which is the sort of
thing I think George is talking about.
For the Legion, we're looking at 20th century futures rather than
19th. Analogies with steampunk might be "dieselpunk", "atompunk",
or "rocketpunk"-- but any Legion of Super-Heroes worthy of the name
seems to be as far from the "punk" aspect as it's possible to get.
That said, William Gibson, one of the founders of the cyberpunk
genre, also wrote the short story "The Gernsback Continuum", which
touched on the idea we're discussing. And though it's a bit of a
conflict of interest, I'd also point to "Gernsback", an alternate
history in the _GURPS Alternate Earths_ role playing supplement,
which attempts to put together a reasonably coherent world with a
World Science Council, jetpacks, flying cars, etc. (The conflict
is because I'm one of the coauthors. Most of the credit for that
chapter goes to Ken Hite, though, so it's not really tooting my own
horn. :-) )
George Grattan
<michael...@hotmail.com> said:
Thanks, but that's not it. The term I'm thinking of doesn't denote a
genre or aesthetic (i.e. steampunk) but rather that peculiar sense of
nostalgia one might get when looking at the "World of Tomorrow"
exhibits in, say, the 1939 World's Fair--and the nostalgia is for those
previous attitudes of what the future would be like. Steampunk
obviously creates (depends upon, in some ways) this particular
nostalgic mode, but isn't the thing itself.
George Grattan
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
Right, but specifically a sense of nostalgia for those past visions of
the future. As you say, the mood can certainly be evoked by much of
steampunk--but not when steampunk varies from what was actually
imagined about the future at the time of its specific setting.
"Futurama" frequently seems to employ (and mock) the specific kind of
nostalgia I'm talking about, but other examples would be the W.W. II
pastiche that showed up in Legion a few years back, or the various
design choices sometimes showing up in advertising these days, or even
some aspects of the movie "Blast from the Past".
Probably the best comics examples that come to mind are the varied ways
Roy Thomas used to use the 1939 World's Fair's projections of the
future in A-SS (he was clearly nostalgic for them, and modern readers
were invited to be, too...) and some of the Chicago World's Fair
sections in _Jimmy Corrigan_ where the sense of loss of personal
history and connection to significant events is mirrored by a sense of
loss of those previous (now discounted) visions of the future.
>
> That said, William Gibson, one of the founders of the cyberpunk genre,
> also wrote the short story "The Gernsback Continuum", which touched on
> the idea we're discussing. And though it's a bit of a conflict of
> interest, I'd also point to "Gernsback", an alternate history in the
> _GURPS Alternate Earths_ role playing supplement, which attempts to put
> together a reasonably coherent world with a World Science Council,
> jetpacks, flying cars, etc. (The conflict is because I'm one of the
> coauthors. Most of the credit for that chapter goes to Ken Hite,
> though, so it's not really tooting my own horn. :-) )
I think you've earned more than enough goodwill here over the years to
deserve a few toots. :-)
Gernsback, eh? Did we even find out what happened to him from the A-SS
days? I seem to recall Meckanique trashing him, but presumably Robotman
would have/could have rebuilt him.
A 30th Century Gernsback as the mysterious Robot Phantom of the United
Planets Fair in Gothamopolis would be a bit too much gilding on the
lily, I suppose....
Brian Doyle
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns94A49BD7E514...@130.133.1.4...
> Steampunk has broadened in a couple of different directions, but I
> don't think either is general enough for George's purposes.
> Depending on whether the emphasis is on the "steam" or the "punk",
> it can to be applied to the transposition of a punk (or at least
> outsider) outlook to the Steam Age (actual or altered by
> retrofuturistic tech), to imagined high-tech based off of the Steam
> Age without any special outsider status for the characters. (These
> overlap-- "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" can fit under
> either definition, for example.)
Was there much tech in LoEG that isn't already covered by Welles and Verne?
The Nautilus was already capable of doing everything it was seen doing when
Verne wrote it. And neither Wells nor Verne could be classed as Steampunk,
they were genuine "Scientific romance"-rs
> For the Legion, we're looking at 20th century futures rather than
> 19th. Analogies with steampunk might be "dieselpunk", "atompunk",
> or "rocketpunk"-- but any Legion of Super-Heroes worthy of the name
> seems to be as far from the "punk" aspect as it's possible to get.
Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls with that
approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which modelled itself after
1940's New York, but kept the high tech trappings.
Brian Doyle
"George Grattan" <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:404a5276$0$3078$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> A 30th Century Gernsback as the mysterious Robot Phantom of the United
> Planets Fair in Gothamopolis would be a bit too much gilding on the
> lily, I suppose....
You could have a future race of sentient robots treating the name Gernsback
like races in the Legion these days treat the name Valor.... :)
Michael S. Schiffer
> message news:Xns94A49BD7E514...@130.133.1.4...
>> Steampunk has broadened in a couple of different directions,
>> but I don't think either is general enough for George's
>> purposes. Depending on whether the emphasis is on the "steam"
>> or the "punk", it can to be applied to the transposition of a
>> punk (or at least outsider) outlook to the Steam Age (actual or
>> altered by retrofuturistic tech), to imagined high-tech based
>> off of the Steam Age without any special outsider status for
>> the characters. (These overlap-- "The League of Extraordinary
>> Gentlemen" can fit under either definition, for example.)
> Was there much tech in LoEG that isn't already covered by Welles
> and Verne? The Nautilus was already capable of doing everything
> it was seen doing when Verne wrote it.
The Nautilus wasn't practical tech at the time Verne was writing in
our world-- it was a vision of potential high tech that Moore
incorporated, in much the same way that the LSH incorporated
jetpacks and flying cars. Granted, his period isn't so much the
Victorian future as sort of sidewise, but that's pretty much the
same situation as _The Difference Engine_.
And neither Wells nor
> Verne could be classed as Steampunk, they were genuine
> "Scientific romance"-rs
But Moore's characters were definite outsiders, most of them with
familiarity with fairly grotty parts of society. They are working
for the British government, which isn't very punk, but the
characters have their own agendas which often are somewhat to very
seamy.
>> For the Legion, we're looking at 20th century futures rather
>> than 19th. Analogies with steampunk might be "dieselpunk",
>> "atompunk", or "rocketpunk"-- but any Legion of Super-Heroes
>> worthy of the name seems to be as far from the "punk" aspect as
>> it's possible to get.
> Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
> with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
> modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
> trappings.
The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law (albeit
unjustly).
Michael Pastor
> "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> news:c2dnuu$k08$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk:
>> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in
>> message news:Xns94A49BD7E514...@130.133.1.4...
>
>
>>> than 19th. Analogies with steampunk might be "dieselpunk",
>>> "atompunk", or "rocketpunk"-- but any Legion of Super-Heroes
>>> worthy of the name seems to be as far from the "punk" aspect as
>>> it's possible to get.
>
>> Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
>> with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
>> modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
>> trappings.
>
> The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
> with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
> latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law (albeit
> unjustly).
Well, the style of Ultra Man (very rocketeer and adam strange-like) in a
younger model would be wonderful with that as well.
What's the name of Doiby Dickle's planet and how well fleshed out is it?
michael j pastor
Brian Doyle
"Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2eljd$1s1eeb$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de...
It's Myrg, moderately well fleshed out in Green Lantern and Young Justice.
It was seen most recently in Young Justice, where an alien invasion was
eventually decided by Robin and the gang on one side and maurading aliens on
the other, deciding the fate of the world by mneans of a baseball game.
Highpoint of the moment was, after Robin bemoaning the fact that he doesn't
feel quite up to facing hordes of aliens as "What am I expecting them to do?
Say "Look it's a kid in red and green tights! Let's surrender" ?",
the aliens do precisely that, before their embarassed leader has to
explain that red and green is a colour combination worn only by
rulers on their world.
Brian Doyle
> > and Verne? The Nautilus was already capable of doing everything
> > it was seen doing when Verne wrote it.
>
> The Nautilus wasn't practical tech at the time Verne was writing in
> our world-- it was a vision of potential high tech that Moore
> incorporated, in much the same way that the LSH incorporated
> jetpacks and flying cars.
That's not quite what I meant. I don't recall Moore adding any EXTRA tech to
the Nautilus, it was sci fi at the time, and I don't recall it being any
more advanced when Moore used it.
> And neither Wells nor
> > Verne could be classed as Steampunk, they were genuine
> > "Scientific romance"-rs
>
> But Moore's characters were definite outsiders, most of them with
> familiarity with fairly grotty parts of society.
But they weren't Moore's characters, they were Verne, Welles, Stevensons and
Stokers. With the possible exception of Hyde (Going from a person who was
shorter than Jekyll to the monster we saw) I don't think he added enough to
them, per se, to make them "his".
< They are working
> for the British government, which isn't very punk, but the
> characters have their own agendas which often are somewhat to very
> seamy.
True.
> > Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
> > with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
> > modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
> > trappings.
>
> The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
> with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
> latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law (albeit
> unjustly).
The Newsboy Legion of Superheroes? :)
Michael S. Schiffer
>
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in
> message news:Xns94A57903DCBE...@130.133.1.4...
>> "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:c2dnuu$k08$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk:
>> > Was there much tech in LoEG that isn't already covered by
>> > Welles and Verne? The Nautilus was already capable of doing
>> > everything it was seen doing when Verne wrote it.
>> The Nautilus wasn't practical tech at the time Verne was
>> writing in our world-- it was a vision of potential high tech
>> that Moore incorporated, in much the same way that the LSH
>> incorporated jetpacks and flying cars.
> That's not quite what I meant. I don't recall Moore adding any
> EXTRA tech to the Nautilus, it was sci fi at the time, and I
> don't recall it being any more advanced when Moore used it.
I think juxtaposing all the high tech of a wide variety of
Victorian literature comes to much the same thing. There isn't
just the Nautilus or the Channel Tunnel or whatever, there's all of
it. The Paris of "League" is visibly different (more so than
London) as a result of all of it.
>> And neither Wells nor
>> > Verne could be classed as Steampunk, they were genuine
>> > "Scientific romance"-rs
>> But Moore's characters were definite outsiders, most of them
>> with familiarity with fairly grotty parts of society.
> But they weren't Moore's characters, they were Verne, Welles,
> Stevensons and Stokers. With the possible exception of Hyde
> (Going from a person who was shorter than Jekyll to the monster
> we saw) I don't think he added enough to them, per se, to make
> them "his".
Stoker's Mina Murray doesn't strike me as getting involved in half
the things that Moore's Mina does, particularly as an active
participant rather than a victim. I get the impression that
Quatermain's come down in the world as well, though I've read fewer
of his adventures. Other characters, like Nemo and the Invisible
Man and Hyde, are already outsiders, and the tone of Moore's
stories is different from that of the source Victorian romances.
Still, as with all genre classifications it's a judgment call.
(Check out rec.arts.sf.written for the quarterly "What is science
fiction?/How easy or useful is it to distinguish from fantasy?"
megathread.) Ultimately, if most people who have an opinion about
steampunk would call "League" steampunk, then it's IMHO reasonable
to talk about it as such, and if not then it isn't. I don't
offhand know which is the case.
>...
>> > Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
>> > with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
>> > modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
>> > trappings.
>> The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
>> with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
>> latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law
>> (albeit unjustly).
> The Newsboy Legion of Superheroes? :)
Hmm... that might be a good Subs analog. Or the Earth-2 Legion's
answer to Infinity, Inc and the v.4 SW6ers.
George Grattan
>
>>
>> But Moore's characters were definite outsiders, most of them with
>> familiarity with fairly grotty parts of society.
>
> But they weren't Moore's characters, they were Verne, Welles, Stevensons and
> Stokers. With the possible exception of Hyde (Going from a person who was
> shorter than Jekyll to the monster we saw) I don't think he added enough to
> them, per se, to make them "his".
I think Moore's Mina is different enough from (thoughly clearly
extrapolated from) Stoker's as to be fairly called "Moore's Mina."
>
>
>>> Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
>>> with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
>>> modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
>>> trappings.
>>
>> The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
>> with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
>> latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law (albeit
>> unjustly).
>
> The Newsboy Legion of Superheroes? :)
He shoots, he scores again. :-)
George Grattan
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
The esteemed Jess Nevins, at least, comes down on the side of
classifying LOEG as Steampunk. (And anyone who's genuinely enojyed
reading this thread who hasn't already got a copy of Nevin's _Heroes &
Monsters: The Unofficial Guide to the LOEG_ is doing himself or herself
one serious disservice.)
>
>> ...
>
>>>> Though it might be fun to havea couple of members from worls
>>>> with that approach, sort of like Doiby Dickies world, which
>>>> modelled itself after 1940's New York, but kept the high tech
>>>> trappings.
>
>>> The Ultra Boy analog, if any, would be a natural place to start
>>> with that. Ditto any reflections of the Atom and Wildcat, the
>>> latter of whom spent some time on the wrong side of the law
>>> (albeit unjustly).
>
>> The Newsboy Legion of Superheroes? :)
>
> Hmm... that might be a good Subs analog. Or the Earth-2 Legion's
> answer to Infinity, Inc and the v.4 SW6ers.
I love it as the Subs analog. Space-faring group of teen "cub"
reporters who, because of their proximity to news as it happens, are
aware of unfolding events where the Legion of All-Stars (or Legion of
All-Star Super-Heroes) might need a hand, or at least someone watching
over the homeworld for a bit. Take Clark Kent's basic motivation for
journalism, add jet packs, teenagers, the 30th Century, and stir. :-)
Wayne Garmil
<ggra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>I'd go for some kind of Nabu connection--though not a Dr. Fate, per se.
>(I had suggested the idea that Nabu could function as the E2 Legion's
>Mordru analogue, having become evil or chaotic or whatever by that
>time--perhaps out of boredom.)
Didn't Nabu switch from being a Lord of Order to being a Lord of Chaos
in one of those mega-crossovers from a few years ago? And there was
Chaos Lord that went over to the side of Order at the same time. This
would definately explain Nabu's recent actions in JSA.
By the way, I like the Nabu idea of him being the E-2 Mondru
replacement.
>And maybe a descendant of the T-Bolt
>itself, somehow, could exist in the Legion's universe--their version of
>Quislet, perhaps?
But the T-Bolt needs someone to call on him and tell him what to do.
He is unable to act on his own, even when he wants to. It's part of
what make him a djin. But he really needs to say the line:
Powers to control the universe, little tiny living space!
Whoever came up with that line was a genius! I wonder if it was one
of Robin Williams ad-libs that Disney ended up animating since it was
so good.
Wayne
George Grattan
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:53:41 -0500, George Grattan
> <ggra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> I'd go for some kind of Nabu connection--though not a Dr. Fate, per se.
>> (I had suggested the idea that Nabu could function as the E2 Legion's
>> Mordru analogue, having become evil or chaotic or whatever by that
>> time--perhaps out of boredom.)
>
> Didn't Nabu switch from being a Lord of Order to being a Lord of Chaos
> in one of those mega-crossovers from a few years ago?
Quite possibly. I tend not to read those things, and not to remember
them when I do. :-)
> And there was
> Chaos Lord that went over to the side of Order at the same time. This
> would definately explain Nabu's recent actions in JSA.
I thought Nabu was merely being a hard-ass Lord or Order, dismissive of
Hector, in the current JSA, not that he'd switched sides. But, again, I
tend not to remember such things--Johns' JSA reads to me pretty much as
mega-crossover book, despite the fact that it's a monthly ongoing.
>
> By the way, I like the Nabu idea of him being the E-2 Mondru
> replacement.
Thanks. It's a bit of a swipe--as per his motivations, at least--from
what Alan Moore did with Mr. M in "Whatever Happened to the Man of
Tomorrow", I'll admit. Just thought that several millennia of being a
Law of Order might well put someone in a cranky mood. (Thing of all the
loose socks he's had to pick up....). Or, more cosmically, perhaps he'd
be forced to switch sides to compensate for a Lord of Chaos who'd done
the same in the E2 cosmos.
>
>> And maybe a descendant of the T-Bolt itself, somehow, could exist in
>> the Legion's universe--their version of Quislet, perhaps?
>
> But the T-Bolt needs someone to call on him and tell him what to do.
> He is unable to act on his own, even when he wants to. It's part of
> what make him a djin. But he really needs to say the line:
>
> Powers to control the universe, little tiny living space!
Which would work great for an Quislet analog, yes. :-)
Okay, how's this: put a Tbolt in a tiny interdimensional space
ship/bottle/Omnicom that falls into the hands of the E2 Chuck Taine,
who becomes an honorary Legion member because of his ability to command
the djinn inside. Chuck was in some ways the Legion's version of JT
anyway--goofy morale officer with a heart of gold.
Michael Pastor
Add to it more tidbits from Midnights Earth-2 Timeline (an invaluable
resource for this thread so far):
2956
Craig King, telenews reporter for The Daily Solar System under the
employ of Parri Wyte, uses scientific gadgetry - including "concealed jet
units for flight" and "a concealed degravitator to make heavy things
light" -
that enables him to simulate, albeit somewhat imperfectly, some of
Superman's
powers. Donning a costume identical to Superman's he has a brief career as
a
crimefighter, before summoning the original Superman from April 1956 to his
time for help. [Action #215]
3000
========================
Brane and Ricky are inspired by time capsule footage of Batman and Robin
to don similar guises to liberate Earth from domination by the Saturnian
warlord Fura. [Batman #62]
Jor-L, nonpowered descendent of Superman, re-establishes law and order
following the departure of the Saturnians, as a member of the Federal Men.
[Jerry Siegel & Joe Schuster]
On Earth-2A, The first woman president, Arda Moore, is elected. [Wonder
Woman #7]
3051
========================
Brane Taylor and his nephew become Batman and Robin of the year 3051 after
perusing historical "micro-films" of Batman's exploits, battling villains
including the villainous space pirate Yerxa. [Batman #67]
so maybe the world's finest descendents (non-powered) make up the Newsboy
Legion?
michael j pastor
George Grattan
<michael...@hotmail.com> said:
>>>
>>>> The Newsboy Legion of Superheroes? :)
>>>
>>> Hmm... that might be a good Subs analog. Or the Earth-2 Legion's
>>> answer to Infinity, Inc and the v.4 SW6ers.
>>
>> I love it as the Subs analog. Space-faring group of teen "cub"
>> reporters who, because of their proximity to news as it happens, are
>> aware of unfolding events where the Legion of All-Stars (or Legion of
>> All-Star Super-Heroes) might need a hand, or at least someone watching
>> over the homeworld for a bit. Take Clark Kent's basic motivation for
>> journalism, add jet packs, teenagers, the 30th Century, and stir. :-)
>
> Add to it more tidbits from Midnights Earth-2 Timeline (an invaluable
> resource for this thread so far):
>
> 2956
> Craig King, telenews reporter for The Daily Solar System under the
> employ of Parri Wyte, uses scientific gadgetry - including "concealed jet
> units for flight" and "a concealed degravitator to make heavy things
> light" -
> that enables him to simulate, albeit somewhat imperfectly, some of
> Superman's
> powers. Donning a costume identical to Superman's he has a brief career as
> a
> crimefighter, before summoning the original Superman from April 1956 to his
> time for help. [Action #215]
That works in so perfectly. Can you repost the link for that timeline?
I've switched newsreaders and my new Unison seems to be a bit hungry.
>
> so maybe the world's finest descendents (non-powered) make up the Newsboy
> Legion?
Which could solve the "problem" of wanting to include them somehow
without giving them too great a role, sure.