Main difference between anime and U.S. cartoons?
leo86
anime in America and one of the key questions that came up in the
pre-interview was the difference between American animation and
Japanese animation, particularly on TV. The interviewer seems to think
that "Sponge Bob Squarepants" is the big thing in animation in the
U.S. right now and anime is only a small part of the overall animation
market. In some broad sense that may be true, but I pointed out the
huge, unprecedented number of anime shows now on U.S. television on
several different channels. I also pointed out how such shows as
"Pokemon," "Dragon Ball Z," and "Yu-Gi-Oh" had much greater impact
among the young males making up the key cartoon audience, while shows
like "Sponge Bob" attracted older teens and family members who don't
normally watch cartoons.
At some point, I described American cartoons as "formulaic" so I was
then asked what kinds of formulas American animation followed. I then
realized I really don't know what American animation is like these
days, even though I've sampled a good number of the current shows. So
I scanned a handy copy of TV Guide and came up with "Teenage Mutant
Ninja Turtles" and described that show: heavy doses of comedy and
slang; use of Asian martial arts as an action gimmick, without any
insight into the origin, nature or spirtual aspects of those martial
arts; rounded, cartoonish characters; no serious elements; and stories
that finished in one episode rather than continuing. And then I saw in
TV Guide, "X-Men Evolution," which fits a certain TV cartoon superhero
mold, but may in fact be a little more sophisticated than that. I tend
to think all American action cartoons tend to look alike (the new
Superman, Batman, Justice League, Teen Titans cartoons, for instance),
while the new, minimalist stuff on Cartoon Network seems to be
developing a distinct, though still formulaic, look of its own
(although one that is distinctly ugly, at least to me). There are
always exceptions, I'm sure, but I don't see any American cartoons
standing out from the pack of the current crop. Am I missing
something? Or am I right, at least in a more general sense?
So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
Thanks.
Joe Gottman
"leo86" <le...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ba221860.0309...@posting.google.com...
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
One major difference is the plot structure. Many anime are structured
like serials, with long continuing storylines. Most American cartoon series
are composed of individual episodes with little, if any relation between
each other. The long storylines make it possible for anime cartoons to have
more complex plots, and actual character development. On the other hand, it
is easier for the casual viewer to start watching American cartoons after
missing several episodes, because he or she does not have to catch up on the
back story.
Joe Gottman
AstroNerdBoy
>
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
>
> Thanks.
Current American cartoons are mostly dumbed down to the lowest common
denominator and geared primarily for kids. Anime tends to tell a story or
have a ecchi-filled fanservice-fest. There are exceptions of course, but
considering how good anime titles got brought over for American TV like
"Escaflowne", then butchered to death in a desperate attempt to domesticate
them, shows that American's still see animation as primarily a kids medium
and not a vehicle to tell good stories.
-Earl
--
Hild: What a bad time to die. What will you do without your weapon?
Rind: Weapon? You've misunderstood. That's not a weapon. That's safety
equipment. As long as I was using that, your safety was guaranteed.
from "Oh My Goddess" vol. 26 ch. 163
Derek Janssen
Pretty much--
Except you left out the part about how most American cartoons stagnated
themselves somewhere in the mid-90's, when everyone coming out of art
school tried to offer up their tribute on the John K. altar, by
concocting their OWN frathouse revenge-fantasies against what they
thought the cheesy 50's-60's toons of their syndicated-afternoon
childhood looked like:
Cult imitation begat cult imitation, John K.-clones stuck in the 60's
evolved into the Craig McCrackens and Genny Tartakovskys neurotically
stuck in the Hanna-Barbera 70's, and CN and Nicktoons now daily try to
out-kitsch each other with the exact same act, Spongebob included...
To the point that now the entire industry seems to have forgotten what
it was doing and tries to survive by feeding off its own rapidly
depleting cult-kitsch nostalgia--While most *real* cartoon fans are now
flocking to the mainstream anime DVD/CN-import boom in droves just to
get a fresh, original breath of toons with actual stories and artwork.
(So, might want to pass along that some of us're, uh...kind of
*embarrassed* that the Japanese think the Powerpuff Girls are genius,
and hint just exactly how well the Movie did with us shirois on its home
turf.)
Derek Janssen (oh, and tell Excel that we haven't called anime
"Japanimation" for at least eleven years now) :)
dja...@rcn.com
Chris Sobieniak
(AstroNerdBoy) wrote:
>Current American cartoons are mostly dumbed
>down to the lowest common denominator and
>geared primarily for kids.
Pretty much how I feel about it too!
>Anime tends to tell a story or have a ecchi-filled
>fanservice-fest. There are exceptions of course,
>but considering how good anime titles got brought
>over for American TV like "Escaflowne", then
>butchered to death in a desperate attempt to
>domesticate them, shows that American's still see
>animation as primarily a kids medium and not a
>vehicle to tell good stories.
>-Earl
A very sad tragedy for all of us to bare!
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Chris Sobieniak
>At some point, I described American cartoons as
>"formulaic" so I was then asked what kinds of
>formulas American animation followed. I then
>realized I really don't know what American
>animation is like these days, even though I've
>sampled a good number of the current shows.
I'm the same way too. Nothing today interests me anymore on TV than
anime.
>So I scanned a handy copy of TV Guide and came
>up with "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and
>described that show: heavy doses of comedy and
>slang; use of Asian martial arts as an action
>gimmick, without any insight into the origin, nature
>or spirtual aspects of those martial arts; rounded,
>cartoonish characters; no serious elements; and
>stories that finished in one episode rather than
>continuing.
That's about right!
>while
>the new, minimalist stuff on Cartoon Network
>seems to be developing a distinct, though still
>formulaic, look of its own (although one that is
>distinctly ugly, at least to me).
I felt the same way too, why I probably stopped watching many of these
cartoons too easily.
>There are always exceptions, I'm sure, but I don't
>see any American cartoons standing out from the
>pack of the current crop. Am I missing something?
>Or am I right, at least in a more general sense?
>So, since I see so little American animation these
>days, can you guys help me out here as I twist the
>question around and ask you what it is about
>American animation that makes it so different from
>anime?
>Thanks
Well, there's many points, one I can name off is that of the way
American cartoons are too formulaic and structured in their premise so
that the shows don't have to be watched in any particular order or to
have any kind of storylines or situations that span over many episodes
as the way anime does (following a serial pattern in this case).
Travers Naran
> I'm going to be interviewed in three days by the Japanese press about
> anime in America and one of the key questions that came up in the
The basic genres I've seen are:
* For Kids and Parents
* Pre-schooler Cartoons
* Typical Action/Superhero
* Hanna Barbara Retro
* Gross and Tasteless
* College crowd (a.k.a. MTV cartoons)
* Teenage girls
As you can see, cartoons are mostly for kids in America still. There's
a few exceptions, like the "Gross and Tasteless" and some "Hanna Barbara
Retro", but generally, if it's animated, it's for a child under 12.
Kids and Parents
================
Ex: Dexter's Laboratory, Spongebob Squarepants, Ned's Newt
These are shows that kids and their parents can watch together. Adults
who generally don't like cartoons will also watch them to unwind from
work. They are generally harmless, inoffensive. The humor is pretty
lightweight so a child can understand, but sometimes has a reference
that only adults would appreciate.
Little Girls and Boys
======================
Ex: Maggie and the Ferocious Beast
For American parents upset with the violence and "garbage" private
broadcasters "force" on their kids. These shows are nearly totally
harmless. Think Hamtaro.
Hanna Barbara retro
====================
Ex: Powerpuff Girls, Johnny Bravo, Harvey Birdman, Seaquest 2011
These are shows for 20-30 year olds who have fond memories of growing up
on Hana-barbara cartoons. The Powerpuff Girls and Johnny Bravo are
usually safe for young kids, but Harvey Birdman and Seaquest definitely
aren't. The interesting thing is these shows are both nostalgic _and_
mocking towards the old Hana Barbara style of cartoons.
Gross and Tasteless
===================
Ex: Ren n Stimpy, Quads, The Ripping Friends, South Park
Lead by "Ren N Stimpy", these cartoons are basically sophomoric
gross-out humor taking to its extremes. Mostly intended for 20-30 year
olds, but younger kids enjoy the gross sophomoric humor.
College Age Cartoons
====================
Ex: Undergrads or anything from MTV
These are wacky comedy cartoons for the MTV crowd. Self-referential and
trying too hard to be hip and trendy.
Teenage Girls
=============
Ex: Totally Spies, Braceface, Sabrina: The Teenage Witch, Clone High
America's version of shoujou anime, but these shows are invariably
insipid and shallow compared to your typical Japanese shoujou. Strong
young female characters are the heroes of these cartoons, and usually
have no challenging content.
Typical Action/Superhero
========================
Ex: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Justice League, X-Men: Evolution
The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves. Even
comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero comic. This
format and formula has not changed a bit since the 1980s. But X-Men:
Evolution is showing signs of great promise.
Off on its own thing
====================
Ex: Samurai Jack
I don't know if this series is a work of art, or just a really boring
vanity project.
Bright spot: X-Men Evolution
=============================
Normally, the superhero format and formula are some superhero (sometimes
from a comic book) fights outlandish villains with melodramatic motives
in self-contained episodes that can be aired in any order. Hell, you
could even skip a season and never notice the difference.
X-Men Evolution seemed like it was going to be a cross between Superhero
formula and the Teenage Girl format, but this series is showing anime
like plotting. Characters are deeper and more interesting than you
usually expect from American animation, and the stories take place
across entire seasons with actual growth and change in the main characters.
Is XM:E an abbaration? I don't know, but it's certainly looks like a
ray of hope in an otherwise bleak and dull animation industry.
The Japanese Invasion IV
=========================
I believe there has been four invasions of Japanese animation, anime,
since the invention of the genre in the 50s.
Invasion I = Gigantor, Astro Boy and Speed Racer
Invasion II = Battle of the Planets, Starblazers (Space Battleship Yamato)
Invasion III = Robotech (a.k.a. Macross), Transformers[*]
Invasion IV = Pokemon, Yuh-gi-oh, Cardcaptor Sakura, Beyblade, etc.
[*] The animation was American, but the robots were definitely Japanese.
The first and second invasion were just to fill timeslots on independent
TV stations. The third and fourth invasions are most definitely market
driven. Supposedly, Robotech was brought over because Revel had
licensed the model kits and wanted kids to know what they were about.
The fourth invasion is mostly pure marketing.
But in each case, the invasions have left a mark on the audience. At
first, it was just accepting the drawing style, but eventually it seems
to have helped kids adapt to the idea of a long, on-going story line,
and more amazingly of all, American kids are watching shows that have
characters that clearly exist in a culture different than their own.
Nowadays, the kids know their favorite animations are from Japan, and it
doesn't bother them. The mantra in Hollywood and TV land used to be
"Americans kids can't identify with non-Americans". That mantra has
been disproven, and a new market has opened up. The mainstreaming of
anime is still at a very, very early stage, but it's happening.
Fox Saturday morning, still the most influential source of animation,
has shown several anime series (Escaflowne, Gundam), and they advertise
The Shaman King as Shonen Jump's The Shaman King. Cartoon Network's
Anime lineup is #1 with kids and #3 with adults for that timeslot.
Things are definitely changing, and it will be interesting to see how
the American animation industry adapts.
--
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Ronny Cook
(1) In American animation, people don't get hurt, either emotionally
or physically. Yes, there is cartoon violence, but actually
showing major characters dying (or even being sad in a serious
way) is quite rare.
(2) As others have mentioned, American animation is far more episodic. That
is, actions do not have consequences. More or less the same characters
will appear in more or less the same form throughout the series.
As for being formulaic, I don't think American animation is any more
guilty of this than anime. Anybody who watches Sailor Moon, Zoids -
certainly any of the "creature combat" shows - can't miss the fact
that they tend to be formulaic. Where the difference lies here is
mainly in using different formulae...
I'm also one of those who watches very little television... anime on
TV down here tends to be rare and depressingly dumbed-down when it
*does* appear. The amount of television I watch weekly could be
comfortably counted (in hours) on the fingers of one hand. Sometimes
on the fingers of one finger. :-)
...Ronny
--
Ronny Cook - gro.koocynnor@ynnor (read backwards) -- www.ronnycook.org
Yes, the domain is sad, but effective. :-)
Ethan Hammond
>
> Derek Janssen (oh, and tell Excel that we haven't called anime
> "Japanimation" for at least eleven years now) :)
And I never did because the term brings me great chagrin.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Scott
> I'm going to be interviewed in three days by the Japanese press about
> anime in America and one of the key questions that came up in the
> pre-interview was the difference between American animation and
> Japanese animation, particularly on TV. The interviewer seems to think
> that "Sponge Bob Squarepants" is the big thing in animation in the
> U.S. right now and anime is only a small part of the overall animation
> market.
Anime is the animation market. All the revenue growth is anime. All
the merchandising is anime. Almost every new project is either anime or
heavily influenced by it. Anime is getting all of the press and shelf
space. Shows like Spongebob Squarepants are the exception, not the rule.
The market at this point is probably 20% Toonami, 30% Pixar, and 50%
Cartoon Network.
> At some point, I described American cartoons as "formulaic" so I was
> then asked what kinds of formulas American animation followed.
There is one formula: sour, ambivalent and thoroughly unpleasant
characters involved in a perpetual insult contest. Everything else is
anime.
> heavy doses of comedy and
> slang;
...usually at the expense of at least one character's dignity...
> use of Asian martial arts as an action gimmick, without any
> insight into the origin, nature or spirtual aspects of those martial
> arts; rounded, cartoonish characters; no serious elements; and stories
> that finished in one episode rather than continuing.
That about covers it. :)
> There are
> always exceptions, I'm sure, but I don't see any American cartoons
> standing out from the pack of the current crop.
The PowerPuff Girls is notable since it was adapted as a feature film
and had a very successful merchandising program. Spongebob Squarepants
remains quite successful. Most other non-anime shows are quite
unremarkable and very unoriginal.
> Am I missing
> something? Or am I right, at least in a more general sense?
You're right.
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
The lack of real writing forms the basis for almost all complaints about
non-anime animated television and most of the movies. Very, very little
thought is given to exactly what a show is trying to say. Most creative
decisions are marketing-centered, which means the show serves as nothing
more than a half-hour commercial for a money-grab merchandising program
and ends up saying nothing after 26 episodes.
The reason anime is successful is because most anime series actually say
something, and that is because great care is taken in writing the
stories for anime.
Non-anime projects are also often done as cheaply as possible, with
absolutely no craftsmanship, artistic endeavor or lasting meaning
involved, so it won't become "too expensive" for the $100-million
production company.
There are several reasons for this, but the most obvious one is that it
is virtually impossible for a creative person to sell a creative idea to
a middle-management-operated bureaucracy.
At a basic level, bureaucracies are anti-creative constructs. They are
designed specifically to avoid risk and unpredictability, which are the
raw materials of creativity.
The person who developed the THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR Lilo and
Stitch, for example, spent TEN YEARS pitching the idea before it was
approved. Just as a point of reference, it took just over four years to
build the Superdome. Twelve publishers turned down Harry Potter. Three
attempts were made to cancel development on the Sims. 20th Century Fox
tried repeatedly to convince George Lucas there was no market for "space
movies." There are hundreds of examples of this.
Pixar, Cartoon Network and Dreamworks are the only companies doing any
really halfway original animation any more. Disney is busy re-releasing
Sleeping Beauty (after 44 years) and Snow White (after almost 70 years).
Oh, and let's not forget the brilliant "Cinderella II" which actually
tries to add a sequel to "happily ever after."
Meanwhile, there are dozens upon dozens of anime companies that are
producing one amazingly original series and OAV after another. The DVD
display at Suncoast compared to just 3 years ago is a wonder to behold.
Earlier this summer, the Incredible Hulk movie merchandise was pushed
to the *back of the store* in favor of Ruroni Kenshin and Magic Knight
Rayearth manga ***while Hulk was still in it's second week of release***
And of course, let's not forget that anime won the Academy Award this
year. That about says it all.
--
Scott
Pål Are Nordal
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
Some thoughts in random order:
US animation doesn't have a tradition of producing (mostly) faithful
adaptations of most successful comics. I think this is a *very*
important difference between the US and Japanese animation market, and
very much overlooked when people compare them. The times this has
happened in the US (90s Spider-Man, X-Men, Hulk, Spawn) you generally
see less interference from the suits since they're already proven
properties, and they're more hesitant to "fix" it. Of course, given that
the US comics market is at an all time low thanks to collector madness
of the mid 90s, "successful comic" may be an oxymoron.
A lot of anime aimed at kids (particularly those not based on a
successful manga) can be far, far stupider, plotless and play it safer
then the average US cartoon. Heck, you even have examples like Beast
Wars, where the show was dumbed down, character deaths were sidestepped,
and one of the show's two tough females was changed into a man, all
because it was deemed inappropriate for the Toy companys intended target
audience.
Networks like to be able to run episodes in whatever order they want, so
tight continuity is discouraged. That's not to say that there haven't
been exceptions (Exo-Squad, Roughnecks, etc.). Those were mainly in
first run syndication though, which is a thing of the past at the moment.
On average, US cartoons have considerably larger budgets (more
consistent animation, higher frame rate, and the cast and crew generally
get paid more). When the budget shrinks, US shows go for poorer, but
consistent animation, rather then lots of slow pans, animation loops
etc. to save money for more important scenes.
Licensing and dubbing is a *lot* cheaper then doing an original show,
especially since the dubbing cast/crew isn't paid much in comparison to
those for original animation and don't get any residual payments for
reruns. This means dubbed anime can be successful with much lower
ratings then a comparable US production.
US shows are rarely intended to have limited runs. Unless it makes it to
50 or more episodes, it is usually a failure.
There are much, much fewer new US cartoons produced each year. Starting
one up is much more of a big deal, so more people tend to get involved
to make sure it's done their way. A really sad example is the
Sony/Mainframe Heavy Gear series, where the writers started out planning
a faithful adaptation of the civil war storyline in the original RPG
with lots of political intrigue. The story got diluted, and diluted
throughout development, most notably by Bandai America who were supposed
to create toys for the show, and put a lot of restrictions on the
designs and nixed the idea of a story arc, eventually turning the show
into an endless series of repetitive gladiatorial mecha matches.
The market for serious late night animated shows isn't anywhere large
enough in the US to make continuous original productions attractive.
There have been a few attempts though, by MTV and HBO (Spawn), but no
big successes.
Aside from CGI and really low budget 2D (South Park, Adult Swim), the
actual animation is outsourced to countries with lower labor costs,
usually to Korea or Japan. Sometimes even to well known anime studios.
Japan has very, very limited live action production capacity in
comparison to North America. Shows that could only be pulled off as
animation in Japan, may end up getting done as live action in the US
instead.
Pål Are Nordal
>
> Hanna Barbara retro
> Gross and Tasteless
It should be noted that these are getting considerably better ratings on
Adult Swim then anime. Anime gets aired though because it's cheaper to
acquire.
> The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves. Even
> comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero comic.
In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant robots in Japan. There is
a *lot* more to US comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
> This
> format and formula has not changed a bit since the 1980s.
I don't know. 90s Batman, Spawn, Spider-Man and Hulk were very different
shows. HBO's Spawn had sex and gross violence (animated by Madhouse,
Kawajiri would be proud). Hulk was outright gritty and depressive until
it got revamped for it's second season due to low ratings. I think Betty
Ross summed up the bitter spirit of the show in the season one finale
"Try as we may, perhaps it is beyond our control to ever alter the
course of our destiny. The winds of change simply blow past us...
Humbling us... Reminding us of how helpless we really are."
> Is XM:E an abbaration? I don't know, but it's certainly looks like a
> ray of hope in an otherwise bleak and dull animation industry.
It has Boyd Kirkland and Greg Johnson at the helm. Tehy rite godd!
> Invasion III = Robotech (a.k.a. Macross), Transformers[*]
>
> [*] The animation was American, but the robots were definitely Japanese.
The toys and animation was Japanese. The concept and writing was US.
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>>
>> Hanna Barbara retro
>> Gross and Tasteless
>
> It should be noted that these are getting considerably better ratings on
> Adult Swim then anime. Anime gets aired though because it's cheaper to
> acquire.
Are they? Because it seems like I haven't heard of a new HB retro
cartoon in years, and the only new G&T series have been on Spike TV. If
they were successful, you'd usually expect a whole bunch of imitators
flooding the market.
>> The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves. Even
>> comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero comic.
>
> In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant robots in Japan. There is
> a *lot* more to US comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
Well, the indies would complain they have solid sales, but from the last
charts I've seen, manga is dominating the graphic novels market. Did I
say dominating? I meant razing the other gfx novels into dust. Hell,
the last volume of Chobits actually showed up in someone's top 20
bestselling books list!
>> This format and formula has not changed a bit since the 1980s.
>
> I don't know. 90s Batman, Spawn, Spider-Man and Hulk were very different
> shows. HBO's Spawn had sex and gross violence (animated by Madhouse,
> Kawajiri would be proud). Hulk was outright gritty and depressive until
> it got revamped for it's second season due to low ratings. I think Betty
> Ross summed up the bitter spirit of the show in the season one finale
> "Try as we may, perhaps it is beyond our control to ever alter the
> course of our destiny. The winds of change simply blow past us...
> Humbling us... Reminding us of how helpless we really are."
But those are 4 examples out how many superhero animations we've had
during that same time? Spawn came and went, but hasn't really left an
impact on the industry. Can you point to 3 shows that are clearly
influenced by Spawn? Spider-Man just added a bit more of the comic book
arc, but generally kept to the old TV superhero formula. I don't recall
the 90s Hulk.
The 90s Batman did leave a demonstrable mark on the industry in Superman
and Justice League, as well as daring to suggest a superhero show can be
maturely written and kids will still watch.
>> Is XM:E an abbaration? I don't know, but it's certainly looks like a
>> ray of hope in an otherwise bleak and dull animation industry.
>
> It has Boyd Kirkland and Greg Johnson at the helm. Tehy rite godd!
'Dem and Paul Dini. Comic book geeks rite reel gooder!
>> Invasion III = Robotech (a.k.a. Macross), Transformers[*]
>>
>> [*] The animation was American, but the robots were definitely Japanese.
>
> The toys and animation was Japanese. The concept and writing was US.
It was? Are you sure it wasn't just farmed out to Japan and Korea (w/
keyframes and storyboards still done in America)? The reason I say that
is because most of the robot animations were God-awful!
Arnold Kim
Nothing else to add here except that it's unfair that you're lumping Batman,
Superman, and Justice League as more or less "typical" action animation.
Those three, especially Batman, broke all the rules in terms of what can and
can't be shown in animated programming on television. Batman was the first
to show crime and violence in anything resembling a realistic light. It's
the only American animation that I've ever really seen incorporate elements
of film noir into its storytelling. And it's one of the few I've seen where
the characters aren't just two dimensional but are shown dealing with deep
emotional conflicts. Just because it's episodic doesn't mean it's not
capable of greatness. Most of Cowboy Bebop was episodic too.
Plus, Batman actually invented its own unique visual style (called "Dark
Deco) that really isn't like anything that came before it . The only
reasons why the three series look alike is because they're made by the same
people and take place in the same continuity.
Arnold Kim
Lawrence Lin
> decisions are marketing-centered, which means the show serves as nothing
> more than a half-hour commercial for a money-grab merchandising program
> and ends up saying nothing after 26 episodes.
And *Mon/latest-anime-toy-game-juggernaut is any different?
Anime is as capable (if not more) than US cartoons at pumping up bilge.
Arthur Levesque
And anime isn't? Anime just has different formulae.
--
/\ Arthur Levesque <fnord?> http://boog.org & http://DammitJa.net __
\B\ack King of the Potato People & shanana-Cobain <*> Urban Spaceman (oO)
\S\lash Screw the cheese-eating surrender monkeys! Sweet Transvestite /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable! My work here is done...
Adam Haun
>So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
>help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
>about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
After reading the other posts and giving this one some thought, I
think the only real difference is what doesn't get made. As others
have pointed out, anime can be just as mindless and formulaic as
American cartoons. The difference is that the stuff that *isn't*
mindless and formulaic doesn't get made at all here. We have no Lain,
Bebop, or Eva to redeem our animation. In terms of Sturgeon's Law, we
cull the good ten percent of the cartoons out, and leave the other
ninety percent in.
--
Adam Haun
ad...@infinity.idleplay.net
Ia! Ia! Rob Kelk fthagn!
Chris Sobieniak
(Pål Are Nordal) wrote:
>Some thoughts in random order:
>US animation doesn't have a tradition of producing
>(mostly) faithful adaptations of most successful
>comics. I think this is a *very* important difference
>between the US and Japanese animation market,
>and very much overlooked when people compare
>them. The times this has happened in the US (90s
>Spider-Man, X-Men, Hulk, Spawn) you generally
>see less interference from the suits since they're
>already proven properties, and they're more
>hesitant to "fix" it. Of course, given that the US
>comics market is at an all time low thanks to
>collector madness of the mid 90s, "successful
>comic" may be an oxymoron.
I blame it on that too, plus the way comics have allegated themselves
into these seedy comic shops and bookstores and outside the newsstands
of supermarkets and corner drug stores of yesteryear.
>A lot of anime aimed at kids (particularly those not
>based on a successful manga) can be far, far
>stupider, plotless and play it safer then the
>average US cartoon. Heck, you even have
>examples like Beast Wars, where the show was
>dumbed down, character deaths were sidestepped,
>and one of the show's two tough females was
>changed into a man, all because it was deemed
>inappropriate for the Toy companys intended target
>audience.
Though Beast Wars was produced by Mainframe in Canada, so it probably
wouldn't count as anime anyway.
>Networks like to be able to run episodes in
>whatever order they want, so tight continuity is
>discouraged. That's not to say that there haven't
>been exceptions (Exo-Squad, Roughnecks, etc.).
>Those were mainly in first run syndication though,
>which is a thing of the past at the moment.
Remember back when this was possible to watch cartoons on saturday
morning.
>On average, US cartoons have considerably larger
>budgets (more consistent animation, higher frame
>rate, and the cast and crew generally get paid
>more). When the budget shrinks, US shows go for
>poorer, but consistent animation, rather then lots
>of slow pans, animation loops etc. to save money
>for more important scenes.
And the eventual farming of said animation to Korea, Taiwan, and
mainland China to save extra moolah.
>Licensing and dubbing is a *lot* cheaper then
>doing an original show, especially since the
>dubbing cast/crew isn't paid much in comparison to
>those for original animation and don't get any
>residual payments for reruns. This means dubbed
>anime can be successful with much lower ratings
>then a comparable US production.
Too bad we don't follow a simular pattern that has been already
established in countries like France and Italy where anime
licensing/dubbing has been common for decades.
>US shows are rarely intended to have limited runs.
>Unless it makes it to 50 or more episodes, it is
>usually a failure.
Originally in the case of a daily syndicated package, the total would be
some 65 episodes. 13 episodes is a common number for a cartoon's season
run, though many times 52 episodes tend to be another common number,
depending on the popularity of the particular show and how many episodes
might be milked out of it.
>There are much, much fewer new US cartoons
>produced each year. Starting one up is much more
>of a big deal, so more people tend to get involved
>to make sure it's done their way. A really sad
>example is the Sony/Mainframe Heavy Gear
>series, where the writers started out planning a
>faithful adaptation of the civil war storyline in the
>original RPG with lots of political intrigue. The
>story got diluted, and diluted throughout
>development, most notably by Bandai America
>who were supposed to create toys for the show,
>and put a lot of restrictions on the designs and
>nixed the idea of a story arc, eventually turning the
>show into an endless series of repetitive
>gladiatorial mecha matches.
Sad indeed, I probably would've watched it.
>The market for serious late night animated shows
>isn't anywhere large enough in the US to make
>continuous original productions attractive. There
>have been a few attempts though, by MTV and
>HBO (Spawn), but no big successes.
Sad really (and I used to watch the animation on MTV back then).
>Aside from CGI and really low budget 2D (South
>Park, Adult Swim),
I still can't believe these shows are ever made. Looked too much like
the kind of BS budget vaules I expect from typical fan-made productions
(still "Sealab 2021" has some great laughs).
>the actual animation is
>outsourced to countries with lower labor costs,
>usually to Korea or Japan. Sometimes even to well
>known anime studios.
Used to remember back when I would spot "TMS" for animating a particular
cartoon, and I would love watching the episode because it felt a lot
better over anything else that was probably outsourced out to some
Philipino studio.
>Japan has very, very limited live action production
>capacity in comparison to North America.
Pretty much what makes it so unique!
>Shows that could only be pulled off as animation
>in Japan, may end up getting done as live action in
>the US instead.
Not that I hope for a live-action Cowboy Bebop anytime soon!
Derek J Decker
le...@my-deja.com (leo86)9 Sep 2003 19:03:37 -0700 writes:
:>
:>So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
:>help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
:>about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
American animation tends to be ordered up as a commodity - so many episodes,
like so many sacks of wheat. The result is that once the basic premise of
a series is set and we're introduced to the main characters, each episode
is completely stand-alone. This way they can be shown in any order.
There's no character development, no ongoing plot, no new characters that
appear in future episodes, or any feature that would make it awkward to
show a series out of order. I think this is a requirement from the networks,
to make their lives easier. If a story can't be wrapped up in a half-hour
slot, it's not told.
Now, this is Usenet. And on Usenet, when you make a blanket statement like
this, you're sure to be inundated with counter-examples - both of episodic
anime and of American shows with actual plot development. But you can
certainly
watch seasons of Sponge Bob, Dexter's Lab, Hey Arnold, Rugrats, PowerPuff
Girls, Ed Edd and Eddy, Scooby-Doo, Recess, Samurai Jack, Courage the
Cowardly Dog, Sitting Ducks (if that show is even watchable by humans),
Tom & Jerry, The Fairly Oddparents, Rocket Power, the Wild Thornberrys, or
CatDog in any order and not miss a thing. I know, because that's what
happens on the tube here with the kids.
Try watching Lain, Escaflowne, Inuyasha, or Evangelion with the shows out
of order sometime. I'd bet many of you reading this are wincing just
considering the idea. More episodic anime like, say, Cowboy Bebop could
survive having some eps switched around - but what would happen to Bebop if
it was shown in reverse order?
I'm fairly convinced that it's the ideas of ongoing story arcs, characters
who are interesting and develop over time as they react to their experiences,
and mysteries that get cleared up over the course of a series that make for
the largest differences between American animation and Japanese anime - more
so than any stylistic conventions (big eyes, sweat drops, etc) or cultural
differences (the First Kiss thing, etc) that might be there.
-Derek
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Derek J Decker de...@decker.net Decker Automation |
| |
| http://DeckerAutomation.myiglou.com |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Liam Slider
<snip>
It's simple. In Japan Anime is often considered a serious form of art
and entertainment. This developed mainly because they had no real
equilivant to Hollywood, nor the budgets for it. You could pull off
things in Anime that were simply impossible, or just financially
impossible in regular movies. Anime is targetted at a wide audience,
from kids stuff, to shows for adults.
In the USA cartoons are seen (and have almost always been seen) as
completely non-serious, mostly kids stuff, cheap garbage for the masses.
Certainly nothing to tell serious or involved stories with. Mostly
targets the kid market. Oh and of course, don't expect kids to be able
to enjoy long involved storylines anyway...
In short, in the US the media is run by idiots.
--
"It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative
scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the
preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When
this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their
prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them." -
Arthur C. Clarke, 1963
Liam Slider
Note, this also explains Pokemon's audience... I've actually had people
tell me they liked that piece of crap exactly for the reason that
storylines don't matter, you can drop in at any place in the story. So
*some* anime falls into that trap too.
Liam Slider
<snip>
> Anime tends to tell a story or
> have a ecchi-filled fanservice-fest.
Hey, that's not fair, some shows do both at the same time! Like Burn Up:
Excess! Serious story, but still 90% fanservice.
Chris Sobieniak
(Liam Slider) wrote:
>leo86 wrote:
><snip>
>It's simple. In Japan Anime is often considered a
>serious form of art and entertainment. This
>developed mainly because they had no real
>equilivant to Hollywood, nor the budgets for it.
>You could pull off things in Anime that were
>simply impossible, or just financially impossible in
>regular movies. Anime is targetted at a wide
>audience, from kids stuff, to shows for adults.
What made anime what it is. Hardly looked on as an odd form of
entertainment at all.
> In the USA cartoons are seen (and have almost
>always been seen) as completely non-serious,
>mostly kids stuff, cheap garbage for the masses.
>Certainly nothing to tell serious or involved stories
>with. Mostly targets the kid market. Oh and of
>course, don't expect kids to be able to enjoy long
>involved storylines anyway...
Shame really (and I used to enjoy the few I used to see on Nick that did
that).
>In short, in the US the media is run by idiots.
Best explains the above!
Blade
news:bjosvu$env$2...@blue.rahul.net:
> In article
> <12462-3F...@storefull-2175.public.lawson.webtv.net>, Chris
> Sobieniak <chrism...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>What made anime what it is. Hardly looked on as an odd form of
>>entertainment at all.
>
> I don't know about that. From what I hear, anime in Japan is like
> Star Wars over here. Everyone's seen some of it and knows what it
> is, but only kids and geeks are really fans of it. Your average
> Japanese person watches some anime like Sazae-san or Miyazaki
> movies, but doesn't consider himself a fan and doesn't watch anime
> in general.
That's actually a great comparison, Ken. The person writing the article
should use it.
Blade
DishRoom1
dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>Japan has very, very limited live action production
>>capacity in comparison to North America.
>
>Pretty much what makes it so unique!
I'm glad to learn about that. ^_^
>>Shows that could only be pulled off as animation
>>in Japan, may end up getting done as live action in
>>the US instead.
>
>Not that I hope for a live-action Cowboy Bebop anytime soon!
>
And besides we know all too well what happens when Hollywood turns *OUR*
cartoons into live-action... -_-
John Shughart
DishRoom1
>Travers Naran wrote:
>>
>> Hanna Barbara retro
>> Gross and Tasteless
>
>It should be noted that these are getting considerably better ratings on
>Adult Swim then anime. Anime gets aired though because it's cheaper to
>acquire.
Still, I perfer my anime over those guys anytime. I don't enjoy Hanna-Barbera
and its imitators as I used to anymore, and I have a sensitive appatite
conservative tastes, hence I get weak-stomached and gravley ill to the bone
over the Gross and Tasteless genre.
>> The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves. Even
>> comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero comic.
>
>In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant robots in Japan. There is
>a *lot* more to US comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
Nearly sadly true. Its unfair that, even with the Collectors Market Craze of
the 1990s long gone, the superheroes still dominate the comic book market with
*still* nothing of great depth or intellegence to say, while some better comics
like the those of furry (independent anthropomorphic-animal fantasy/cartooning)
comics get little attention.
John Shughart
Blade
news:20030911034216...@mb-m13.aol.com:
> dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>> The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves.
>>> Even comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero
>>> comic.
>>In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant robots in Japan.
>>There is a *lot* more to US comics, however nobody appears to be
>>buying.
> Nearly sadly true. Its unfair that, even with the Collectors Market
> Craze of the 1990s long gone, the superheroes still dominate the
> comic book market with *still* nothing of great depth or
> intellegence to say, while some better comics like the those of
> furry (independent anthropomorphic-animal fantasy/cartooning) comics
> get little attention.
Nothing of great depth or intelligence to say? Boy, hie thee to a comic
shop and purchase a copy of Watchmen. There has still never been a manga
that matches it.
Blade
DishRoom1
>Pål Are Nordal wrote:
>> Travers Naran wrote:
>>>
>>> Hanna Barbara retro
>>> Gross and Tasteless
>>
>> It should be noted that these are getting considerably better ratings on
>> Adult Swim then anime. Anime gets aired though because it's cheaper to
>> acquire.
>
>Are they? Because it seems like I haven't heard of a new HB retro
>cartoon in years, and the only new G&T series have been on Spike TV. If
>they were successful, you'd usually expect a whole bunch of imitators
>flooding the market.
I am thankful that the G&T genre didn't spawn many imatators.
>
>>> The superhero format has never left American comics or airwaves. Even
>>> comics aimed for adults are usually some sort of superhero comic.
>>
>> In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant robots in Japan. There is
>> a *lot* more to US comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
>
>Well, the indies would complain they have solid sales, but from the last
>charts I've seen, manga is dominating the graphic novels market. Did I
>say dominating? I meant razing the other gfx novels into dust. Hell,
>the last volume of Chobits actually showed up in someone's top 20
>bestselling books list!
That's good for them. ^_^
John Shughart
DishRoom1
>Scott wrote:
>
>> decisions are marketing-centered, which means the show serves as nothing
>> more than a half-hour commercial for a money-grab merchandising program
>> and ends up saying nothing after 26 episodes.
>
>And *Mon/latest-anime-toy-game-juggernaut is any different?
>
>Anime is as capable (if not more) than US cartoons at pumping up bilge.
What about "Digimon"? Even though the show is based on a Tomagotchi-inspired
collectors-card game series, it folows the anime aesthetic rules of story arcs,
deep and everchanging character development, intellegent storytelling. Once
they had a season titled: "Digimon:Tamers" that was the most high-shining
example of this.
John Shughart
Chris Kern
<li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> posted the following:
>It's simple. In Japan Anime is often considered a serious form of art
>and entertainment. This developed mainly because they had no real
>equilivant to Hollywood, nor the budgets for it. You could pull off
>things in Anime that were simply impossible, or just financially
>impossible in regular movies. Anime is targetted at a wide audience,
>from kids stuff, to shows for adults.
This is almost complete nonsense. Anime is the same as cartoons in
America. It's all for kids except for a very few pieces. Anime is
not considered a "serious" hobby or a serious form of art any more
than cartoons are in the US.
If you go up to a random Japanese person and say you are a fan of
anime, that says "geek". It's the same as saying you're a fan of
cartoons in the US. Anyone high school age or older shouldn't be
watching anime.
(None of this applies to manga, however, which *is* sometimes
considered a "serious" form of art and entertainment, thought not
really -- you wouldn't find businessmen discussing manga by the
watercooler, even if they read some on the train to work that
morning.)
-Chris
Chris Kern
the following:
>Nothing of great depth or intelligence to say? Boy, hie thee to a comic
>shop and purchase a copy of Watchmen. There has still never been a manga
>that matches it.
Perhaps you mean "there has still never been a manga published in
English that matches it"?
-Chris
Travers Naran
> Nothing of great depth or intelligence to say? Boy, hie thee to a comic
> shop and purchase a copy of Watchmen. There has still never been a manga
> that matches it.
Watchmen is the only thing of note in the last 20 years. Everything
else of "depth" in superhero comics has been a pale imitation of it.
And I say 20 years, because from what I've been reading, Squadron
Supreme was the only thing that rivaled it.
But then again, I'd compare some of the independent comics up against
the best of Japanese manga.
Liam Slider
Damn straight, and damn good villains to boot. The major villains almost
never died due to their own incompetance. The last season was a joke I
hear...
Liam Slider
Explain anime like Noir then. It's definately not kids stuff. And not
"geek stuff" either. Hell explain a lot of the other *serious* anime
that's clearly not kids stuff. And why would they consider manga to be
good entertainment, and not anime. Especially when anime often is based
on manga? Your argument makes no sense.
Chris Sobieniak
>Chris Sobieniak wrote --
>>dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>>Japan has very, very limited live action
>>>production capacity in comparison to North
>>>America.
>>Pretty much what makes it so unique!
>I'm glad to learn about that. ^_^
Glad you see my point! You don't have to have a big budget to put
together something that creativity knows no limits.
>>>Shows that could only be pulled off as
>>>animation in Japan, may end up getting done as
>>>live action in the US instead.
>>Not that I hope for a live-action Cowboy Bebop
>>anytime soon!
>And besides we know all too well what happens
>when Hollywood turns *OUR* cartoons into
>live-action... -_-
>John Shughart
Still waiting to see how Evangelion will turn out once that's done.
Chris Sobieniak
wrote:
>dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>considerably better ratings on Adult Swim then
>>anime. Anime gets aired though because it's
>>cheaper to acquire.
>Still, I perfer my anime over those guys anytime. I
>don't enjoy Hanna-Barbera and its imitators as I
>used to anymore, and I have a sensitive appatite
>conservative tastes, hence I get weak-stomached
>and gravley ill to the bone over the Gross and
>Tasteless genre.
I know how you feel. I can get sick of it too after a while.
>>In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant
>>robots in Japan. There is a *lot* more to US
>>comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
>Nearly sadly true. Its unfair that, even with the
>Collectors Market Craze of the 1990s long gone,
>the superheroes still dominate the comic book
>market with *still* nothing of great depth or
>intellegence to say, while some better comics like
>the those of furry (independent
>anthropomorphic-animal fantasy/cartooning)
>comics get little attention.
>John Shughart
Too bad it never turned in favor of the indie furry titles and what-not.
Michael Lo
Michael Lo
Sometimes I wonder if making animated series in Japan is something like
a "make work" project. With Noir, the producers were trying to win a
following in a small market (Noir was on at 1:15 in the morning and I
remember correctly wasn't it only on a channel with a limited audience).
Reading the producer's notes on the DVDs it seems that they were fresh
off a project and had to come up with a new project which is what led to
Noir. While ostensibly aimed at a male audience, the producers wanted
to be go for a more inclusive market which is why there was only a smidge
of fan service and the characters were all designed by women artists
(none of the 4 are double-F cup and running around in g-strings). However
if things didn't work out alright with Noir, no one's complaining-the makers
knew that they had a limited audience at best and it seems they were
mostly hoping to get some acclaim for their project (Didn't Bee-Train just
mostly do video-game portovers before Noir?).
Chris Mattern
> Blade wrote:
>
> > Nothing of great depth or intelligence to say? Boy, hie thee to a comic
> > shop and purchase a copy of Watchmen. There has still never been a manga
> > that matches it.
>
> Watchmen is the only thing of note in the last 20 years. Everything
> else of "depth" in superhero comics has been a pale imitation of it.
>
> And I say 20 years, because from what I've been reading, Squadron
> Supreme was the only thing that rivaled it.
>
whether that's a superhero comic.
Chris Mattern
Arnold Kim
"Liam Slider" <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote in message
news:bjq9t5$m9p2g$1...@ID-169482.news.uni-berlin.de...
Anime in Japan is much like the US comic book industry in that both are
largely considered to be for geeks or children, though there may be great
adult oriented works in both. Anime has Noir and works by directors like
Mamoru Oshii, US comics have Watchmen and Neil Gaiman.
> And why would they consider manga to be
> good entertainment, and not anime. Especially when anime often is based
> on manga? Your argument makes no sense.
Because the manga that adults read is very rarely turned into anime.
Arnold Kim
Blade
news:kdo0mv457mufncjt1...@4ax.com:
No. Unless there's some amazing gem I've never read, seen, heard
anything about, or had described to me.
Blade
Blade
> Blade wrote:
>
>> Nothing of great depth or intelligence to say? Boy, hie thee to a
>> comic shop and purchase a copy of Watchmen. There has still never
>> been a manga that matches it.
>
> Watchmen is the only thing of note in the last 20 years. Everything
> else of "depth" in superhero comics has been a pale imitation of it.
There's also Kingdom Come. And a few other things of quality and
interest, if not at the same level. Starlin's stuff, for instance. Also
Joe Kelly's run on Deadpool, which rivals Excel Saga for off-the-wall
humour and insane amounts of references, as well as just being a good
continuing story.
> And I say 20 years, because from what I've been reading, Squadron
> Supreme was the only thing that rivaled it.
Eh. I liked SS for what it was, but I wouldn't put it up against
Watchmen. Less well-thought-out, and too much of an agenda for my
tastes. Still very much above the grade, though.
> But then again, I'd compare some of the independent comics up
> against the best of Japanese manga.
Yes, so would I. Blue Monday and Gold Digger spring to mind rather
quickly.
Blade
Rose Prescott
<matt...@comcast.net> writes:
>> Watchmen is the only thing of note in the last 20 years. Everything
>> else of "depth" in superhero comics has been a pale imitation of it.
>>
>> And I say 20 years, because from what I've been reading, Squadron
>> Supreme was the only thing that rivaled it.
>>
>Have you read "V for Vendetta"? Although I suppose it's arguable as to
>whether that's a superhero comic.
Same question for Sandman, though the early issues started out from a superhero
springboard.
Rose
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
DishRoom1
Liam Slider
Chris Kern wrote --
I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons. You
still haven't explained that if what you state is true, then how is it the
anime/magna we've see, even some of the children's shows like "Digimon: Tamers"
or a family movie like "Spirited Away", is far more trailblazing than American
cartoons, even Disney's.
John Shughart
leo86
It was a big help to me.
This was for a TV documentary. The crew only just finished and left my
office, so I'll give you all a complete report when I know what the
finished product looks like. In fact, I selected some of the responses
from the group here and showed them to the producer. So now, they
might want to interview some of YOU! Are you ready for your 15
minutes? :)
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> Lawrence Lin wrote --
>>
>>
>>>Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>decisions are marketing-centered, which means the show serves as nothing
>>>>more than a half-hour commercial for a money-grab merchandising program
>>>>and ends up saying nothing after 26 episodes.
>>>
>>>And *Mon/latest-anime-toy-game-juggernaut is any different?
>>>
>>>Anime is as capable (if not more) than US cartoons at pumping up bilge.
>>
>>
>> What about "Digimon"? Even though the show is based on a
>Tomagotchi-inspired
>> collectors-card game series, it folows the anime aesthetic rules of story
>arcs,
>> deep and everchanging character development, intellegent storytelling. Once
>> they had a season titled: "Digimon:Tamers" that was the most high-shining
>> example of this.
>
>Damn straight, and damn good villains to boot. The major villains almost
>never died due to their own incompetance. The last season was a joke I
>hear...
Well, "Digimon Frontiers" wasn't too bad, but not quite as gripping at the
Tamers adventures. Frontiers is about these five kids who ride into the Digital
World via trains and absorb warrior-spirits, which turns the kids themselves
into Digimon, to save to Digital World from being gobbled up by one corrupt
Digimon. Had some interesting points, but no candle match with the Tamers,
where the three preteen heroes are partnered each with a Digimon that each kid
gets strongly bonded with, personally and psycologically.
John Shughart
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>>Chris Sobieniak wrote --
>>>dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>>>Japan has very, very limited live action
>>>>production capacity in comparison to North
>>>>America.
>>>Pretty much what makes it so unique!
>>I'm glad to learn about that. ^_^
>
>Glad you see my point! You don't have to have a big budget to put
>together something that creativity knows no limits.
>
>>>>Shows that could only be pulled off as
>>>>animation in Japan, may end up getting done as
>>>>live action in the US instead.
>>>Not that I hope for a live-action Cowboy Bebop
>>>anytime soon!
>>And besides we know all too well what happens
>>when Hollywood turns *OUR* cartoons into
>>live-action... -_-
>>John Shughart
>
>Still waiting to see how Evangelion will turn out once that's done.
I know that this is not proposed as going to live action, but I am curious as
to how "Saber Marionette J" would have looked in live action with Japanese
filmmarkers and cast, but I'm happy enough with the anime and manga versions.
^_^
John Shughart
Invid Fan
<dish...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
> anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons.
Our old anime club was running a video room at a gaming con at the
University of Buffalo. Two female Japanese students walk in while
Macross: Do You Remember Love (untranslated) is showing. Their
reaction? "You're watching THAT?! It's for little kids!" Our manhood
was sorely tested that day :)
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Blade
news:884b7c04.03091...@posting.google.com:
Not according to the attributions.
Blade
Liam Slider
Hell a lot of "kids" anime is better than all the crap they put on TV
for adults here.
Derek Janssen
>>I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
>>anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons.
>
> Our old anime club was running a video room at a gaming con at the
> University of Buffalo. Two female Japanese students walk in while
> Macross: Do You Remember Love (untranslated) is showing. Their
> reaction? "You're watching THAT?! It's for little kids!" Our manhood
> was sorely tested that day :)
Ah, the Sailor Moon Syndrome... :)
Often culturally answered with our US reply "Oh, yeah?--You should see
what WE show little kids!!"
(I dunno, for me it's hard to take their pop-culture-acclimated sneering
at the "outdated" Sailor Moon, Macross and DBZ "that even little kids
don't watch anymore", and then rationalize that whole Powerpuff Girls
thing of theirs--
Looks like there's some serious grass-is-greener factor going on here)
Derek Janssen
dja...@rcn.com
Arnold Kim
"DishRoom1" <dish...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030911202927...@mb-m17.aol.com...
From everything I've heard over the years when it came to accounts of
whether or not anime was really accepted by Japanese adults at large.
Pretty much the reaction from the Japanese I've gathered is more or less
"Yeah, I liked anime... when I was, like, ten."
> still haven't explained that if what you state is true, then how is it the
> anime/magna we've see, even some of the children's shows like "Digimon:
Tamers"
> or a family movie like "Spirited Away", is far more trailblazing than
American
> cartoons, even Disney's.
They have more respect for children's stories, but they're still considered
children's stories. And this isn't just in Japan- most of the fairy tales
you read as a kid were really quite violent in their original forms.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
I'm thinking that if it was really as good as Watchmen, _someone_ would have
thought to publish it in English.
Arnold Kim
Blade
news:bjravj$gml$1...@bob.news.rcn.net:
That was precisely my thought. Not that there aren't stupendously good
manga, but even the ones I really really liked have flaws that prevent
them from matching up to Watchmen. Then again, there's hardly any novels
I've read there are as good as Watchmen, either. It ranks up there with
Utena as what I consider some of the best speculative fiction ever.
Blade
Chris Kern
<li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> posted the following:
>Explain anime like Noir then. It's definately not kids stuff. And not
>"geek stuff" either.
Sure it is. I have no idea why you think Noir would not be "geek
stuff". Almost nobody in Japan knows it exists, and as soon as they
heard it was anime, any sort of claim of "seriousness" or anything
would be laughed at.
> Hell explain a lot of the other *serious* anime
>that's clearly not kids stuff.
Geek stuff.
> And why would they consider manga to be
>good entertainment, and not anime. Especially when anime often is based
>on manga? Your argument makes no sense.
You're right that it doesn't make sense that manga should be
acceptable while anime is not. But what's "geek" and what's "normal"
often does not make logical sense, in the US and in Japan.
-Chris
Chris Kern
following:
>I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
>anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons.
I live in Japan. I talk to Japanese people.
>You
>still haven't explained that if what you state is true, then how is it the
>anime/magna we've see, even some of the children's shows like "Digimon: Tamers"
>or a family movie like "Spirited Away", is far more trailblazing than American
>cartoons, even Disney's.
You seem to want a logically sound argument for why Japanese people
consider anime to be for kids -- one may not exist. Society does not
use a logical process to determine what is "for kids" or not. Anime
is considered to be kiddy because it is. There's really no other
explanation that can be given for this -- it's just a part of Japanese
society. The companies create anime for kids (or geeks), and they are
watched mostly by kids and geeks.
You cannot say "Japanese animation is more mature than American
animation. Therefore Japanese animation is for adults as well as
kids." It simply does not work that way.
And note that not all shows are "trailblazing" and "mature". There
are a number of insipid, awful anime that don't have developing plots,
or "mature" themes, or anything like that. And this really tends to
be what's popular (Sazae-san, Chibi Maruko-chan, and that stupid show
about the ninja kids are all more popular than any of these
"trailblazing" shows mentioned).
-Chris
Chris Kern
the following:
>Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:kdo0mv457mufncjt1...@4ax.com:
>> Perhaps you mean "there has still never been a manga published in
>> English that matches it"?
>
>No. Unless there's some amazing gem I've never read, seen, heard
>anything about, or had described to me.
Which is quite possible, given the thousands and thousands of manga
that are published in Japan. Virtually all of the manga published in
the US are kids' manga, so of course the stories (in the end) will not
be incredibly mature or deep (considerably deeper on the whole than
what passes for kids' entertainment in the US). America has not seen
even 1% of the total manga in existence.
And I do not agree with the "if it's good, they would have published
it in the US".
Essentially, then, you are claiming that a large number of manga you
have never read or heard of are worse than The Watchmen. How is this
any different than the DBZ-hater attitudes you often criticize?
I have never read The Watchmen, so I can't say that anything is better
than it.
I'll nominate "20th Century Boys" as the amazing gem you've never
read, though. 20CB is the best work of graphic fiction that I have
ever read.
-Chris
Chris Kern
the following:
>"Arnold Kim" <ki...@erols.com> wrote in
>news:bjravj$gml$1...@bob.news.rcn.net:
>> I'm thinking that if it was really as good as Watchmen, _someone_
>> would have thought to publish it in English.
>
>That was precisely my thought. Not that there aren't stupendously good
>manga, but even the ones I really really liked have flaws that prevent
>them from matching up to Watchmen. Then again, there's hardly any novels
>I've read there are as good as Watchmen, either. It ranks up there with
>Utena as what I consider some of the best speculative fiction ever.
I'll recommend that you both (and everyone reading this thread,
actually) try 20th Century Boys if scanlations are acceptable to you.
http://www.mangascreener.com/project.php?id=8&&page=1
I think it's unlikely this will ever be published in English despite
Naoki Urasawa's very high popularity and esteem in Japan (his earlier
series, Monster, is also considered a masterpiece but I haven't read
it yet).
I hesitate to describe the series even a little bit because *any* sort
of spoilers at all, even just for the first few chapters, can affect
the gradual, mysterious story that Urasawa tries to tell here.
My roommate recommended The Watchmen a while back and I should have
read it while I still lived with him -- it's something that I
definitely want to read eventually.
-Chris
Blade
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:49:05 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> posted
> the following:
>
>>Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:kdo0mv457mufncjt1...@4ax.com:
>
>>> Perhaps you mean "there has still never been a manga published in
>>> English that matches it"?
>>
>>No. Unless there's some amazing gem I've never read, seen, heard
>>anything about, or had described to me.
>
> Which is quite possible, given the thousands and thousands of manga
> that are published in Japan. Virtually all of the manga published in
> the US are kids' manga, so of course the stories (in the end) will not
> be incredibly mature or deep (considerably deeper on the whole than
> what passes for kids' entertainment in the US). America has not seen
> even 1% of the total manga in existence.
>
> And I do not agree with the "if it's good, they would have published
> it in the US".
Actually, I said, if it were that good, I would have seen it, or read it,
or heard about it. I am not limited to only what is published in the US,
and I know about many manga that haven't been translated. I find it
difficult to believe something so profoundly great would cause so little
a stir.
> Essentially, then, you are claiming that a large number of manga you
> have never read or heard of are worse than The Watchmen. How is this
> any different than the DBZ-hater attitudes you often criticize?
The difference between "I know nothing about the show, but hate it" and
"If there was something as good as this widely acclaimed piece of work, I
probably would have heard of it"? I think you can probably figure it out
for yourself.
Blade
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> Arnold Kim wrote --
I know. Whoda thought animation about kids befriending digitally-created
creatures is more mature in spirit than some of today's American live-action
media for adults?
John Shughart
Travers Naran
> On 12 Sep 2003 00:29:27 GMT, dish...@aol.com (DishRoom1) posted the
> following:
>
>>I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
>>anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons.
>
> I live in Japan. I talk to Japanese people.
You forgot to mention that otaku is an insult and put-down in Japan. :-)
> You cannot say "Japanese animation is more mature than American
> animation. Therefore Japanese animation is for adults as well as
> kids." It simply does not work that way.
That's a little over simplified. There are more anime titles meant for
an older audience than American animation titles aimed at an older audience.
> And note that not all shows are "trailblazing" and "mature". There
> are a number of insipid, awful anime that don't have developing plots,
> or "mature" themes, or anything like that. And this really tends to
> be what's popular (Sazae-san, Chibi Maruko-chan, and that stupid show
> about the ninja kids are all more popular than any of these
> "trailblazing" shows mentioned).
Also, we tend to get the best of the best, so there's a distorted view
of the generaly quality level of anime in Japan. Isn't there something
like a 100 shows airing at the moment?
It reminds me of the "British TV is better than North American TV"
debate. It is on average better, but not by that much. A lot of bad
britcoms and dramas never cross the Atlantic, so we only see the best of
the best.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> Arnold Kim wrote --
Ok, then. Still, it's hard to believe the Japanese look down on animation. It's
kind of like art historians and caring deeply for the Reinassance European
work.
John Shughart
DishRoom1
I wrote -->>dr...@spamcop.net wrote --
>>>It should be noted that these are getting
>>>considerably better ratings on Adult Swim then
>>>anime. Anime gets aired though because it's
>>>cheaper to acquire.
>>Still, I perfer my anime over those guys anytime. I
>>don't enjoy Hanna-Barbera and its imitators as I
>>used to anymore, and I have a sensitive appatite
>>conservative tastes, hence I get weak-stomached
>>and gravley ill to the bone over the Gross and
>>Tasteless genre.
>
>I know how you feel. I can get sick of it too after a while.
>
>>>In US comics, superheros sell. Just like giant
>>>robots in Japan. There is a *lot* more to US
>>>comics, however nobody appears to be buying.
>>Nearly sadly true. Its unfair that, even with the
>>Collectors Market Craze of the 1990s long gone,
>>the superheroes still dominate the comic book
>>market with *still* nothing of great depth or
>>intellegence to say, while some better comics like
>>the those of furry (independent
>>anthropomorphic-animal fantasy/cartooning)
>>comics get little attention.
>>John Shughart
>
>Too bad it never turned in favor of the indie furry titles and what-not.
Well, yeah plus that the independent comic market was hit hard by those
inferiorly produced Teenage Muntant Ninja Turtles knock offs years ago, and its
been stuggling much since. We furries have been doing fine though, although in
recent years we had our share of false, ugly negative sterotyping, just like
the anime community does, but we still survive. We have some comic companies
Radio Comix and Shanda Fantasy Arts that sell some of my favorite furry comics.
And recently there's word that furry writter Paul Kidd is having Japanese
animators work on a small animated short based of his adult
Furry-Fandom-self-parody comic, "Tank Vixens".
John Shughart
8-Bit Star
>
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
The primary difference I've seen is that Japanese
animation is more open to "pushing it" as it were,
than American animation is. Rarely in America
do you see semi-sadistic heroes (Yu-Gi-Oh),
situations that really ARE wacky (Ranma 1/2)
or plotlines that actually don't feel they have
to explain every last technical detail (too many
to list). And not since the 80s have we seen
situations with actual drama in them (such as
many episodes of Rockman EXE). In fact I'll
note that many English dubs ad extrenuous
dialogue and other such things to CUT DOWN
on the latter two qualities.
So to speak, there's very few US cartoons that
I'd say really ever "pushed it." Among them
Spawn (Which... did things that not even an
R-Rated live action film would do, as far as
I've seen), Codename Kids Next Door (truly
bizarre situations, and some of the humor
does push it a bit, and also features a
cast of kids who actually *aren't* annoying),
Thundercats had a continuous storyline, and
He-Man (both the 1983 one and the 2003 one)
had some serious character-oriented drama.
But then, these are four incidents over the
span of 20-something years. Whereas we only
do this occasionally, Anime typically does it
CONSISTENTLY.
Another thing anime usually has: focus.
There is no better example of a cartoon
lacking focus than the 1996 Mega Man
cartoon from Ruby-Spears. Though primarily
a Sci-Fi series, near the end of the first
season it went off the rocker and started
throwing magical objects and ancient curses
into the mix, as well it got away from it's
original focus, becoming less about Mega Man
and his battles against Wily and more like
just a generic action series in which you
could very well replace Mega Man with
that dude from Silverhawks and still have
had the same show.
As opposed to a show like Lupin the 3rd--you
know it's ALWAYS going to be about Lupin and
he's ALWAYS going to be doing something
criminal and getting chased by Zenigata.
He's not going to turn and suddenly start
playing Ghostbusters or something unless
there's a potential cash flow involved.
Well, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it,
at least, for now.
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>Chris Kern wrote:
>
>> On 12 Sep 2003 00:29:27 GMT, dish...@aol.com (DishRoom1) posted the
>> following:
>>
>>>I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
>>>anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons.
>>
>> I live in Japan. I talk to Japanese people.
>
>You forgot to mention that otaku is an insult and put-down in Japan. :-)
Sometimes. It can often be used in a joking manner or in a jokingly
self-depriciating manner (i.e. someone might say "I'm a computer
otaku")
>> And note that not all shows are "trailblazing" and "mature". There
>> are a number of insipid, awful anime that don't have developing plots,
>> or "mature" themes, or anything like that. And this really tends to
>> be what's popular (Sazae-san, Chibi Maruko-chan, and that stupid show
>> about the ninja kids are all more popular than any of these
>> "trailblazing" shows mentioned).
>
>Also, we tend to get the best of the best, so there's a distorted view
>of the generaly quality level of anime in Japan. Isn't there something
>like a 100 shows airing at the moment?
That seems a bit much, but there are quite a few. The difference is
far more apparent in manga -- there are over 1,000 manga stories
running right now, and most of them suck horribly.
-Chris
Chris Kern
the following:
>Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:msj2mv4c3qkst69tq...@4ax.com:
>> And I do not agree with the "if it's good, they would have published
>> it in the US".
>
>Actually, I said, if it were that good, I would have seen it, or read it,
>or heard about it. I am not limited to only what is published in the US,
>and I know about many manga that haven't been translated. I find it
>difficult to believe something so profoundly great would cause so little
>a stir.
Had you heard of Monster or 20th Century Boys?
-Chris
David Johnston
Well there are a number of reasons. One is the "grass is greener on the other
side" effect. An import is going to be exotic and simply being exotic adds
a certain excitement. As a result a really pretty hackneyed and formulaic
piece of work like Digimon may seem more exciting than, say, Ozzy and Drix,
not because it is really better, but because it has that cachet.
But there's more to it than that of course. There's also less of the
American tendency to shelter children from fictional "influences".
Thus you can have a nude scene in a cartoon for teenagers, or
graphic violence, or more emotionally real elements like a character
in Nadia of the Mysterious Seas having to face and accept the fact
that his father is really dead. You couldn't have that in most
American cartoons because they aren't prepared to confront children
with the reality of death. That they are in Japanese cartoons is
not a sign that the cartoons are aimed at older age groups. It's
a sign that the Japanese are less cowardly about what they expose
young minds to.
Rose Prescott
writes:
>It reminds me of the "British TV is better than North American TV"
>debate. It is on average better, but not by that much. A lot of bad
>britcoms and dramas never cross the Atlantic, so we only see the best of
>the best.
Sorta like looking at the ancient buildings in Rome and saying, "Wow, those
Romans really built to last!" Of course they built at all quality levels, but
the shoddy buildings fell down long ago.
tito
<li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> wrote:
>DishRoom1 wrote:
>> Lawrence Lin wrote --
>>
>>
>>>Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>decisions are marketing-centered, which means the show serves as nothing
>>>>more than a half-hour commercial for a money-grab merchandising program
>>>>and ends up saying nothing after 26 episodes.
>>>
>>>And *Mon/latest-anime-toy-game-juggernaut is any different?
>>>
>>>Anime is as capable (if not more) than US cartoons at pumping up bilge.
>>
>>
>> What about "Digimon"? Even though the show is based on a Tomagotchi-inspired
>> collectors-card game series, it folows the anime aesthetic rules of story arcs,
>> deep and everchanging character development, intellegent storytelling. Once
>> they had a season titled: "Digimon:Tamers" that was the most high-shining
>> example of this.
>
>Damn straight, and damn good villains to boot. The major villains almost
>never died due to their own incompetance. The last season was a joke I
>hear...
The last season was a more streamlined version of the original two
seasons, which is not inherently a problem. It's more that the serious
and wonderfully bizzare 4th season has a mood completely different
tone which was very refreshing and enjoyable.
Also, for some reason, the fourth season saw the return of the
infamous (and usually unfunny) 'dub-inserted jokes' that tended to
plague the original two seasons. The fourth season didn't do that as
much.
(Digimon was also one of the first popular mainstream anime series
where the dubs came out so quick there was actual active discussion by
fans on both ends of the Pacific.)
At any rate Digimon was the best mon/collector series we've seen yet,
to the point its popularity was prolly bigger here than its
marketing. IMHO, Mon Colle Knights and Medabots were gems too,
although those leaned towards the comedic parody side.
Pokemon I think has always balanced itself well with its
merchandising vs its story, although it became so homogenous after a
while (movies nonwithstanding) I'm still hoping they bring over
Pokemon Advanced Generation just for a change of pace.
While given a chance, YuGiOh has totally dissapointed me in its
subtley.
tito
>Sometimes I wonder if making animated series in Japan is something like
>a "make work" project. With Noir, the producers were trying to win a
>following in a small market (Noir was on at 1:15 in the morning and I
>remember correctly wasn't it only on a channel with a limited audience).
>Reading the producer's notes on the DVDs it seems that they were fresh
>off a project and had to come up with a new project which is what led to
>Noir. While ostensibly aimed at a male audience, the producers wanted
>to be go for a more inclusive market which is why there was only a smidge
>of fan service and the characters were all designed by women artists
>(none of the 4 are double-F cup and running around in g-strings). However
>if things didn't work out alright with Noir, no one's complaining-the makers
>knew that they had a limited audience at best and it seems they were
>mostly hoping to get some acclaim for their project (Didn't Bee-Train just
>mostly do video-game portovers before Noir?).
Bee Train worked on Utena, and after Noir, hack//SIGN.
Oddly enough, there's a big fandom of yuri fans who notice bee Train
sure likes their Girl duo dynamics..
James Marshall
>And note that not all shows are "trailblazing" and "mature". There
>are a number of insipid, awful anime that don't have developing plots,
>or "mature" themes, or anything like that. And this really tends to
>be what's popular
No doubt. I'm sure that in any medium you're going to get both excellent
examples and really poor examples. I'm sure there's plenty of Japanese
animation that's geared towards children, too, just like animation here in
the US. My impression was that Japanese animation tends to have more
material aimed at adults than American animation though. I'm not sure if
I think of that in an absolute sense (number of shows) or a relative sense
(percentage of the total animation output), but that's the way it seemed
to me. And I don't really have any evidence to back up that opinion, it's
just the impression I get from the anime I've seen. So is that true to
some extent or is it just a bias created somewhere in the importing process?
--
. . . . -- James Marshall (SAG) .
,. -- )-- , , . -- )-- , mars...@astro.umd.edu ,. . ,
' ' http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall .
"Electrons are just purple hazes with green racing stripes." , .
Blade
The former, though admittedly precious little. Not the latter, tho it's
by the same artist as I recall your previous post. How long has it been
running?
Blade
Chris Kern
the following:
>Chris Kern <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:6l13mvs1gr56uq4jn...@4ax.com:
>> Had you heard of Monster or 20th Century Boys?
>
>The former, though admittedly precious little. Not the latter, tho it's
>by the same artist as I recall your previous post. How long has it been
>running?
Hmm...I'm not exactly sure. It's on chapter 160 in a weekly magazine,
so it's been running for at least 3 years.
Monster has concluded at 18 volumes (I think this was before 20th CB
started).
-Chris
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Chris Kern wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:06:46 -0500, Liam Slider
> > <li...@NOSPAM.liamslider.com> posted the following:
> >
> >
> >>It's simple. In Japan Anime is often considered a serious form of art
> >>and entertainment. This developed mainly because they had no real
> >>equilivant to Hollywood, nor the budgets for it. You could pull off
> >>things in Anime that were simply impossible, or just financially
> >>impossible in regular movies. Anime is targetted at a wide audience,
> >
> >>from kids stuff, to shows for adults.
> >
> > This is almost complete nonsense. Anime is the same as cartoons in
> > America. It's all for kids except for a very few pieces. Anime is
> > not considered a "serious" hobby or a serious form of art any more
> > than cartoons are in the US.
> >
> > If you go up to a random Japanese person and say you are a fan of
> > anime, that says "geek". It's the same as saying you're a fan of
> > cartoons in the US. Anyone high school age or older shouldn't be
> > watching anime.
> >
> > (None of this applies to manga, however, which *is* sometimes
> > considered a "serious" form of art and entertainment, thought not
> > really -- you wouldn't find businessmen discussing manga by the
> > watercooler, even if they read some on the train to work that
> > morning.)
>
> Explain anime like Noir then. It's definately not kids stuff. And not
> "geek stuff" either. Hell explain a lot of the other *serious* anime
> that's clearly not kids stuff. And why would they consider manga to be
> good entertainment, and not anime. Especially when anime often is based
> on manga? Your argument makes no sense.
>
BTW, just so you know, he works in Japan.
Now let's see what he comes up with.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Arnold Kim wrote --
>
> Liam Slider
>
> >
> >> And why would they consider manga to be
> >> good entertainment, and not anime. Especially when anime often is based
> >> on manga? Your argument makes no sense.
> >
> >Because the manga that adults read is very rarely turned into anime.
> >
>
> I'm courious as to where or what is giving you the idea that the Japanese give
> anime/magna the same sort of sneering as our culture does with cartoons. You
> still haven't explained that if what you state is true, then how is it the
> anime/magna we've see, even some of the children's shows like "Digimon: Tamers"
> or a family movie like "Spirited Away", is far more trailblazing than American
> cartoons, even Disney's.
>
By talking to Japanese friends. ;-)
Certainly not from just watching anime!
Fans of anything tend to elevate their craft
beyond where it really is;
gives it and them greater importance. ;-p
Chris Sobieniak
(David Johnston) wrote:
>But there's more to it than that of course. There's
>also less of the American tendency to shelter
>children from fictional "influences". Thus you can
>have a nude scene in a cartoon for teenagers, or
>graphic violence,
Which I think is normal anyway. (got so used to it)
>or more emotionally real elements like a character
>in Nadia of the Mysterious Seas having to face
>and accept the fact that his father is really dead.
>You couldn't have that in most American cartoons
>because they aren't prepared to confront children
>with the reality of death.
I don't even know how I ever got over deaths in my family, but I came
out rather OK and less aware of it.
>That they are in Japanese cartoons is not a sign
>that the cartoons are aimed at older age groups.
>It's a sign that the Japanese are less cowardly
>about what they expose young minds to.
Plus they got those festivals where they honor the dead anyway, so they
give them their fair share on small occasions (nothing like the way we
would mourn those that die in a war or 9-11 on those days)!
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Chris Sobieniak
>>Too bad it never turned in favor of the indie furry
>>titles and what-not.
>Well, yeah plus that the independent comic market
>was hit hard by those inferiorly produced Teenage
>Muntant Ninja Turtles knock offs years ago, and its
>been stuggling much since. We furries have been
>doing fine though, although in recent years we had
>our share of false, ugly negative sterotyping, just
>like the anime community does, but we still
>survive. We have some comic companies Radio
>Comix and Shanda Fantasy Arts that sell some of
>my favorite furry comics.
And I hope for the best.
Somehow I used to enjoy reading the old "furry" comics of the past when
they used to be commonplace in America, such a shame it's pretty much
been overrunned because of everything else that's afftected the American
comic world for the last haf of the 20th Century.
>And recently there's word that furry writter Paul
>Kidd is having Japanese animators work on a
>small animated short based of his adult
>Furry-Fandom-self-parody comic, "Tank Vixens".
>John Shughart
That's interesting.
Ethan Hammond
>
> BTW, just so you know, he works in Japan.
> Now let's see what he comes up with.
Who works in Japan. I haven't really been following
the thread.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Weapon X
On 9/9/2003 10:03 PM, "leo86" <le...@my-deja.com> wrote in
<ba221860.0309...@posting.google.com>:
> I'm going to be interviewed in three days by the Japanese press about
> anime in America and one of the key questions that came up in the
> pre-interview was the difference between American animation and
> Japanese animation, particularly on TV. The interviewer seems to think
> that "Sponge Bob Squarepants" is the big thing in animation in the
> U.S. right now and anime is only a small part of the overall animation
> market. In some broad sense that may be true, but I pointed out the
> huge, unprecedented number of anime shows now on U.S. television on
> several different channels. I also pointed out how such shows as
> "Pokemon," "Dragon Ball Z," and "Yu-Gi-Oh" had much greater impact
> among the young males making up the key cartoon audience, while shows
> like "Sponge Bob" attracted older teens and family members who don't
> normally watch cartoons.
I think American produced cartoons are very much into getting a laugh or
being entertaining to a broad range of people w/out being tied down to a
continuing storyline like that found in most anime. Basically, you could
watch most of the American 'toons "out of order" and still enjoy them.
There is no real order to the episodes of any Amer. cartoon to adhere
to. Mostly, each ep. is a one-shot deal that can be enjoyed on its own.
You can even miss watching certain eps & still not be lost when you
watch other eps. The anime I've seen imported here to American
broadcasting needs to be aired in particular order, whereas cartoons
aired here are almost always shuffled when rebroadcasted. I think they
purposely do that to have variety or it would become "boring &
predictive" to the audience. Probably the appeal of American broadcasted
'toons is that you never quite know what ep they may show this time. If
U do find out (through online ep. airing schedule, tv guide, etc.), you
might just tune in only when your favorite eps would actually air.
I'm not sure, but aren't all (or most) American live-action TV shows
like this as well: each episode is a one-shot story so that if the TV
show is rerun, the eps could be re-played in random order. If so, then
it's the similar mentality of our 'Hollywood producers' that seem to
dictate why our TV shows & cartoons are like the way they are now.
Though, that thinking, especially for current American-made cartoons,
seems to be more & more heavily influenced by Japanese animation (see
Teen Titans, Totally Spies<?>, ) ... mostly affecting just the
artistic/design aspects of Amer. 'toons (for now).
> At some point, I described American cartoons as "formulaic" so I was
> then asked what kinds of formulas American animation followed.
I think there are some anime that follow a certain general formula or
pattern for almost every episode. It's just told in a different way each
time.
Ex: Sailor Moon & the new Scooby Doo could be considered as such.
> I then
> realized I really don't know what American animation is like these
> days, even though I've sampled a good number of the current shows. So
> I scanned a handy copy of TV Guide and came up with "Teenage Mutant
> Ninja Turtles" and described that show: heavy doses of comedy and
> slang; use of Asian martial arts as an action gimmick, without any
> insight into the origin, nature or spiritual aspects of those martial
> arts; rounded, cartoonish characters; no serious elements; and stories
> that finished in one episode rather than continuing. And then I saw in
> TV Guide, "X-Men Evolution," which fits a certain TV cartoon superhero
> mold, but may in fact be a little more sophisticated than that. I tend
> to think all American action cartoons tend to look alike (the new
> Superman, Batman, Justice League, Teen Titans cartoons, for instance),
For me, I notice a difference even in the above shows that you
mentioned. Teen Titans is more light-hearted while Superman, B:TAS, &
Justice League are more mature in storytelling. The X-Men cartoon in the
90s had some serious elements in it but the new X-Men Evolution is a
step back -- being (a bit) more lighter in tone or storytelling.
Overall, the vast majority of American Super-Hero shows have gotten more
mature and serious in their storytelling. Compare the Superfriends of
the 70s & 80s w/ JLA now.
> while the new, minimalist stuff on Cartoon Network seems to be
> developing a distinct, though still formulaic, look of its own
> (although one that is distinctly ugly, at least to me). There are
> always exceptions, I'm sure, but I don't see any American cartoons
> standing out from the pack of the current crop. Am I missing
> something? Or am I right, at least in a more general sense?
I have started noticing a trend in comic books in the past couple of
years towards more abstract art styles -- particularly more closely
resembling popular Japanese manga art styles. We used to have a majority
of comics containing mostly "very realistic" drawings/renditions of
characters in comic books in the late 90s & early 2000-2001, but as
anime got more & more popular here in America, a lot of titles started
to experiment in drawing the Japanese way w/ their characters, for a few
issues at least.
The more abstract style/nature is also affecting current American shows
like the ones I mentioned. Teen Titans having more of an abstract style
compared to Superman, JLA, B:TAS (even the Batman animation became
slightly "more abstract" in later seasons <different animation company
by then?>). Spider-Man Unlimited is also probably another example of
more abstract art when compared with the 1990's Spider-Man cartoon which
came right before it.
> So, since I see so little American animation these days, can you guys
> help me out here as I twist the question around and ask you what it is
> about American animation that makes it so different from anime?
1) Episodes that can be watched out of order. Each one is a
self-contained laugh-riot or story not really bound to any other episode
in the series.
2) There does seem to be a followed formula for each ep in a toon
series, but I think this is just imitating Prime Time TV shows which are
the same thing: each episode is capable of standing on its own & not a
real continuity is followed from each ep to the next.
3) American cartoons seem to almost always be 'conservative' -->
producer's thinking: "I wouldn't show this if kids are gonna watch
this." or "Let's just tone this part a bit."
Japanese animation seem to be (much) less so --> producer's thinking:
"What can we do to get the most people to watch our show?" <-- "most
people" not being limited to a certain demographic.
> Thanks.
the Powered up PowerMaster Prime! See him at:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/spidermanwwweb
Arnold Kim
"Weapon X" <QSBA1...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:XAF8b.6320$fz5....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> 10:11 AM EST, September 13, 2003
> I'm not sure, but aren't all (or most) American live-action TV shows
> like this as well: each episode is a one-shot story so that if the TV
> show is rerun, the eps could be re-played in random order. If so, then
> it's the similar mentality of our 'Hollywood producers' that seem to
> dictate why our TV shows & cartoons are like the way they are now.
It depends on the show. True for a lot of cases, but a lot of one hour
dramas and even many sitcoms have at least some kind of romantic subplot
that may last a number of episodes or even the season ("Friends," for
instance). And genre-oriented shows like Buffy, Angel, and X-Files are
every bit as arc-dependent as most anime. Esp. Season 7 of Buffy- if you
didn't start watching with the season premiere, you'd be completely lost.
The problem with animated serialized storytelling in America is that the
order in which they get produced is not necessarily the order in which they
air. (This is according to Joss Whedon, who had a failed attempt to create
an animated Buffy series)
> Though, that thinking, especially for current American-made cartoons,
> seems to be more & more heavily influenced by Japanese animation (see
> Teen Titans, Totally Spies<?>, ) ... mostly affecting just the
> artistic/design aspects of Amer. 'toons (for now).
Arnold Kim
Chris Sobieniak
(Weapon X) wrote:
>Basically, you could watch most of the American
>'toons "out of order" and still enjoy them. There is
>no real order to the episodes of any Amer. cartoon
>to adhere to. Mostly, each ep. is a one-shot deal
>that can be enjoyed on its own. You can even miss
>watching certain eps & still not be lost when you
>watch other eps.
I guess I kinda got fed up with this idealology long ago, and why I tend
to favor more serialized forms of storytelling.
>Probably the appeal of American broadcasted
>'toons is that you never quite know what ep they
>may show this time. If U do find out (through
>online ep. airing schedule, tv guide, etc.), you
>might just tune in only when your favorite eps
>would actually air.
Used to be a time when just the TV guide was the only way to know, as
the internet and other forms weren't available 20 years ago.
>Though, that thinking, especially for current
>American-made cartoons, seems to be more &
>more heavily influenced by Japanese animation
>(see Teen Titans, Totally Spies<?>, ) ... mostly
>affecting just the artistic/design aspects of Amer.
>'toons (for now).
Which is why it's still harder for me to ever watch them as I'd rather
see an improvement over the story as much as for the design.
>I have started noticing a trend in comic books in
>the past couple of years towards more abstract art
>styles -- particularly more closely resembling
>popular Japanese manga art styles. We used to
>have a majority of comics containing mostly "very
>realistic" drawings/renditions of characters in comic
>books in the late 90s & early 2000-2001, but as
>anime got more & more popular here in America, a
>lot of titles started to experiment in drawing the
>Japanese way w/ their characters, for a few issues
>at least.
I don't tend to buy these books, but I did notice the trend happening.
>The more abstract style/nature is also affecting
>current American shows like the ones I mentioned.
>Teen Titans having more of an abstract style
>compared to Superman, JLA, B:TAS (even the
>Batman animation became slightly "more abstract"
>in later seasons <different animation company by
>then?>). Spider-Man Unlimited is also probably
>another example of more abstract art when
>compared with the 1990's Spider-Man cartoon
>which came right before it.
Yet it's nothing that 10 year olds would want to buy with their
allowances anyway (nothing like the way I did).
>2) There does seem to be a followed formula for
>each ep in a toon series, but I think this is just
>imitating Prime Time TV shows which are the
>same thing: each episode is capable of standing
>on its own & not a real continuity is followed from
>each ep to the next.
I'd rather create a nuance and perhaps throw in a character that does
pop in, and have my characters develop over time even though the
episodes might still be self-contained.
>3) American cartoons seem to almost always be
>'conservative' --> producer's thinking: "I wouldn't
>show this if kids are gonna watch this." or "Let's
>just tone this part a bit."
One of those setbacks for the creative team that tries hard to put
together something they know people would watch, and not what a producer
would think is acceptable.
>Japanese animation seem to be (much) less so -->
>producer's thinking: "What can we do to get the
>most people to watch our show?" <-- "most people"
>not being limited to a certain demographic.
Which pretty much leads to what we do see on TV these days (and why I
find myself 'turned off' by it).
Christopher Fiore
> You forgot to mention that otaku is an insult and put-down in Japan. :-)
Does anyone know how "otaku" came to mean "fanboy?" IIRC, the word
originally meant "another person's house [other than the speaker's]."
Frank Mitchell
> Does anyone know how "otaku" came to mean "fanboy?" IIRC, the word
> originally meant "another person's house [other than the speaker's]."
I can't remember if I read this in one of Frederick Schodt's books, but
I believe "otaku" was short for "the sort of person who says something
as archaic and overly formal as 'otaku' instead of a more modern and
appropriate second-person pronoun".
--
Frank Mitchell (frankm each bayarea period net)
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Michael Lo
As an addenum, one thing that really helped the Japanese animation
industry is the power of the director. To appease a well-known director
the executives will let him make a project that he wants to do with no
interference, this is the case for Now and Then, Here and There (the
director was famous for making comedies but he felt burnt out by them
and wanted to do something different before going back) and Gasaraki
(the director told the executives the general framework of his project
and then told them that there'll only be two mechs in this military
show with mecha, the executives were disappointed since they were
thinking merchandise bonanza that comes with mecha toys but
green-lighted the project anyways). There's only a few directors
with this kind of clout in North America.
To Liam Slider, this appears to be the case for Noir. That's why
I said that sometimes the animation industry in Japan looks like
a "make-work". The Bee-train guys knew that Noir only had limited
capacity to make a big success with it but they were happy with
just a little success.
Then there's the case of Haibane Renmei, where a producer saw
potential in character designer ABE's home-made comic and asked him
to make a series from it with ABE as the script-writer (the original
Charcoal Feathers in Old Home comics were stream of conscious pieces).
So friends of ABE pitched in and a kind of independent project formed.
They too were aiming at modest success (they wanted a late-night series).
8-Bit Star
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2003, 2:12pm (EDT+4), QSBA19A P...@prodigy.net
> (Weapon X) wrote:
> >Basically, you could watch most of the American
> >'toons "out of order" and still enjoy them. There is
> >no real order to the episodes of any Amer. cartoon
> >to adhere to. Mostly, each ep. is a one-shot deal
> >that can be enjoyed on its own. You can even miss
> >watching certain eps & still not be lost when you
> >watch other eps.
>
> I guess I kinda got fed up with this idealology long ago, and why I tend
> to favor more serialized forms of storytelling.
I think producers ought to find a balance, like what
Thundercats did where it often tied back or referred
to previous episodes, but in such a way where you
need not have seen said episodes to understand the
current one.
Chris Sobieniak
(8-Bit Star) wrpte"
>chrism...@webtv.net (Chris Sobieniak) wrote in
>message
>news:<19252-3F...@storefull-2172.public.>lawson.webtv.net>...
>>long ago, and why I tend to favor more serialized
>>forms of storytelling.
>I think producers ought to find a balance, like what
>Thundercats did where it often tied back or
>referred to previous episodes, but in such a way
>where you need not have seen said episodes to
>understand the current one.
Probably why I continued to watch that show over 15 years back.
Wesley McGee
> "Weapon X" <QSBA1...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:XAF8b.6320$fz5....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> > 10:11 AM EST, September 13, 2003
> order in which they get produced is not necessarily the order in which they
> air. (This is according to Joss Whedon, who had a failed attempt to create
> an animated Buffy series)
Could that be because of the way cartoons are now produced in America,
in which I mean much of the animating work is shipped overseas to
Japan or Korea or wherever. Meaning that if for whatever reason there
are problems with one ep, the network or syndicator is forced to go
into reruns, even if later eps are fine. I seem to recall that
happened with Disney's "Gargoyles", a show with strong continuity.
(Though I suppose you could wait until an entire season is in the can
before you start airing them).
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>I think American produced cartoons are very much into getting a laugh or
>being entertaining to a broad range of people w/out being tied down to a
>continuing storyline like that found in most anime. Basically, you could
>watch most of the American 'toons "out of order" and still enjoy them.
>There is no real order to the episodes of any Amer. cartoon to adhere
>to.
This is not necessarily a bad thing! It may seem great when you are
sitting with the DVDs or fansubs of the complete series to have a
continuing storyline.
But since arriving in Japan I have been very frustrated with the
televised anime because of this "continuing storyline" -- I basically
can't watch any anime on TV because I have no idea what's going on
(often even the basic premises of the series are unclear).
And I think people give kids too much credit, perhaps -- a lot of the
kids I have talked to about anime like One Piece don't really
comprehend the developing storyline and just like watching the fights.
-Chris
8-Bit Star
Actually, IIRC the main problem with serialization
on US television is that they often go for
syndication, in which case there is no garuntee
that the episodes will be played in order,
particularly when the show goes into reruns.
I remember once, KidsWB tried to play Dragon
Ball Z, but didn't play the episodes in order,
so one day they'd play a Saiyan Saga episode,
and the next day we'd be in the fight with the
Ginyu Force. This kind of thing is what
discourages serialization on US television.
(I seem to remember there was a case like this
with Kimba the White Lion as well, and that
because of it no one knows what the correct
order of those episodes even are).
CAndersen
>Actually, IIRC the main problem with serialization
>on US television is that they often go for
>syndication, in which case there is no garuntee
>that the episodes will be played in order,
>particularly when the show goes into reruns.
With syndicated shows being delivered by satellite these days, one would
think this wouldn't be the problem it once was. But there's no guarantee
the program supplier will supply the shows in proper order. Even on their
first network run, most shows are scrambled from their production order.
>(I seem to remember there was a case like this
>with Kimba the White Lion as well, and that
>because of it no one knows what the correct
>order of those episodes even are).
In that era, syndication meant shipping 52 (in the case of Kimba) reels of
16mm film to each and every TV station that bought the show. There was no
hope of maintaining control over the order in which they were broadcast.
But for some reason, the syndicator thought it would be a good idea to take
a show with definite continuity (Kimba actually grew during the run of the
show) and scramble the official episode numbers, so that even if a
conscienscious operator showed the episodes in the prescribed order, they'd
be out of sequence!
Fans did spend some time arguing over the correct order of the Kimba
episodes, but now we have access to the original Japanese broadcast dates
which seem to match the producer's intentions. The current DVDs (both
American and Japanese) follow this sequence but, oddly, the American Kimba
VHS tapes follow the syndicator's scrambled sequence.
See also
http://en.tezuka.co.jp/anime/sakuhin/subtitle/ts005.html
http://www.kimbawlion.com/history.htm
http://www.kimbawlion.com/epguide.htm
CAndersen
>In that era, syndication meant shipping 52 (in the case of Kimba) reels of
>16mm film to each and every TV station that bought the show. There was no
>hope of maintaining control over the order in which they were broadcast.
Footnote: Because of the need to physically print new copies and re-ship
them as new stations bought the show, apparently the syndicator even lost
control over which _version_ of the show went out. As a result, there were
two different theme songs for Kimba, only one of which is on the home
videos, and two _completely_ different versions of the first episode--only
one of which is on video at the moment. I am desperately seeking a copy of
the other version, which sounds like it could have been a first take, but
it contains good ideas missing from the available version. It was
definitely broadcast in several cities.
http://www.kimbawlion.com/home.html#missing
Chris Sobieniak
>nes_...@hotmail.com (8-Bit Star) wrote:
>>Actually, IIRC the main problem with serialization
>>on US television is that they often go for
>>syndication, in which case there is no garuntee
>>that the episodes will be played in order,
>>particularly when the show goes into reruns.
>With syndicated shows being delivered by satellite
>these days, one would think this wouldn't be the
>problem it once was. But there's no guarantee the
>program supplier will supply the shows in proper
>order. Even on their first network run, most shows
>are scrambled from their production order.
This is quite evident for many shows like the Simpsons, Family Guy, and
for the 6 episodes of the Clerks cartoon that got seen out of order,
confusing those who might've turned in to the 2 episodes that were seen.
>>(I seem to remember there was a case like this
>>with Kimba the White Lion as well, and that
>>because of it no one knows what the correct
>>order of those episodes even are).
>In that era, syndication meant shipping 52 (in the
>case of Kimba) reels of 16mm film to each and
>every TV station that bought the show.
This was a common practice that continued into the 1980s. I think by
the late '80s, most programs already switched to video masters or used
satellites to run the programs on.
I think the last anime to be distributed in this fashion were "Battle of
the Planets" and "Star Blazers" in many markets during their initial run
(BotP might've been distributed on video later to some stations).
>There was no hope of maintaining control over the
>order in which they were broadcast. But for some
>reason, the syndicator thought it would be a good
>idea to take a show with definite continuity (Kimba
>actually grew during the run of the show) and
>scramble the official episode numbers, so that
>even if a conscienscious operator showed the
>episodes in the prescribed order, they'd be out of
>sequence!
Which was also quite obvious for many others that might've went through
the same BS, Kimba otherwise has a different episode production number
that was used in the Right Stuf releases, rather than to go with what
was the original arrangement that had some continuity.
Sometimes anime was purposely dubbed to make it seem like they didn't go
in any order, such as Battle of the Planets, though BOTP did have some
episodes that were turned into two-parters because of their length or
the editing of the original Gatchaman series to pile in 7-Zark-7 & Co.'s
panderings.
>Fans did spend some time arguing over the correct
>order of the Kimba episodes, but now we have
>access to the original Japanese broadcast dates
>which seem to match the producer's intentions.
We're all greatful for that! Especially for the internet to provide it
to the mass more quicker.
>The current DVDs (both American and Japanese)
>follow this sequence but, oddly, the American
>Kimba VHS tapes follow the syndicator's
>scrambled sequence.
Hmm, perhaps I should get the DVDs then! Though I do have a bootleg of
some Kimba episodes, and one looked to have been taken from an NBC
International print, as it had the familiar tublular NBC logo of the
'60s on it at the end! ^_^
>See also
>http://en.tezuka.co.jp/anime/sakuhin/subtitle/ts005
>html http://www.kimbawlion.com/history.htm
>http://www.kimbawlion.com/epguide.htm
Thanks for the resources!