Animation Pet Peeves
Steve Carras
Flinstones, not the two betty voices but when Mel Blanc was unconscious and
Daws Butler did Barney, a voice intended to have been (by Joe Barbera) a Ed
Norton (Art Carney) type, and (by Mel Blanc) to be something different but with
the same lovable qualities as had Mr.Carney. Daws REALLY channelled Carney,
just as he did for Robert McKimson at Warners in the sadly underrated
"Honeymooners" parodies (both "Half Fare Hare" with Bugs Bunny and the trilogy
of cartoons centering around "The Honeymousers" with June Foray and later Julie
Bennett) and later (well, anyhow at first) Yogi Bear. Then Mel came back and
started doing what DID become a pernament Barney voice, VERY different from the
standard drunk-bum voice Mel did for Barney ORIGINALLY. Blanc's CURRENT Barney
voice became a lot like Butler's! It's become the standard (for Frank Welker
and others) Barney Rubble.
Also when Chuck Jones gets all the attention for Looney Tunes (granted he's the
only director most know..BUT). For that matter, the TERM Looney Tunes as
opposed to Merrie Melodies.:)
Getting back to FLINSTONES, I can't stand, just became they had the new theme,
the "uniformity" alibi of putting stock "1962" endings, all of them with the
same credits for each from 1966-1990 for ALL episodes made before "Invisble
Barney" (which remained the long late Howard McNear's ONLY onscreen credit, and
with the same Screen Gems pseudo-Chinese (well, TO ME anyhow) looking
typesetting as in the stock credits), yet with dedicated end credits remaining,
ONLY to have post 1990-reruns (and VIDEO editions-at least one I have) ALSO
scrubbed of dedicated endings, so that there's either for post-childbirth 1963
episodes one episode "Swedish Visitor" credits and also "Hwo to pick a Fight
with your wife without really trying" (1965) credits then later just for each
season from 1962-1966 a set of credits from ONE of that given season's episode
endings, and jiust stuck onto every episode from that specific season. Also THE
ORIGINAL credits for FLINSTONES were also sketchy---Only Alan Reed & Jean
Vanderpyl got billed at first, in some cases NO CREDITS AT ALL existed, and
the abovecited "Sewdish" episode had Doug Young and Howard Morris listed but
it's actually, some dude named Henry Hoople listed by many references though
not billed, and not Doug Young, who is heard along with Morris in "Swedeish
Visitors" episode of the Flinstones (Yogi Bear makes an appearance
here,nonspeaking). BTW Like many others this had Mel Blanc and other main cast
doing additional voices.Finally, Hank Corden's unbilled in amny final season
unbilled episodes.
I hated how they either made Daffy Duck too "cranky" or softened the Chipmunks
and Donald Duck's nephews in the 1980s!!
Another pet peeve is that due to apparent ownership problems, SINBAD JR. which
I downloaded (both Sam Singer and the superioir Hanna-Barbera version)
from toontrack.com, isn't rerun. (DreamWorks is said to be doing a version and
there is a new serious half hour animated series.Maybe these are being regarded
subsistutes, but for me there is NO substitues for SInbad Jr.and Salty the
Parrot!! [PS-stupid question time- Is he in anyo of these new versions?])
Plus I hate how Top Cat and Jetsons rerun on both cassette and TV with NO
credits or at least no original credits.
And of course I hate that Blue Ribbon Warner Bros.cartoons ain't restored to
their respective proper original titles AND shown on CN regularly (in those
versions!)
"Say THANK you Carmen"-Spy Kids
"I thought this was 2706. Hey, it IS 2706"-A Hick, A Slick, and a Chick (Looeny
Tunes)
"The most recent guy I dated went through a phase where he thought that he WAS
a bus"-Forty Days and Forty Nights (Miramax comedy)
James Vipond
Hash: SHA1
In article <20030109223744...@mb-cu.aol.com>,
gca...@aol.compusoiv (Steve Carras ) wrote:
> Another pet peeve is that due to apparent ownership problems,
> SINBAD JR. which
> I downloaded (both Sam Singer and the superioir Hanna-Barbera
> version) from toontrack.com, isn't rerun. (DreamWorks is said to
> be doing a version and
> there is a new serious half hour animated series.Maybe these are
> being regarded
> subsistutes, but for me there is NO substitues for SInbad Jr.and
> Salty the Parrot!! [PS-stupid question time- Is he in anyo of these
> new versions?])
I'm annoyed by the fact that the animated _Little_Rascals_ hasn't
been shown on analog cable, or released commercially on VHS or DVD,
since the cartoons left ABC in 1984. Another ownership problem, I
suppose: I'm told that King World sold the character likenesses to
Hallmark.
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Chris Sobieniak
wrote:
>>Getting back to FLINSTONES, I can't stand, just
>>became they had the new theme, the "uniformity"
>>alibi of putting stock "1962" endings, all of them
>>with the same credits for each from 1966-1990 for
>>ALL episodes made before "Invisble Barney"
>>(which remained the long late Howard McNear's
>>ONLY onscreen credit, and with the same Screen
>>Gems pseudo-Chinese (well, TO ME anyhow)
>>looking typesetting as in the stock credits), yet
>>with dedicated end credits remaining, ONLY to
>>have post 1990-reruns (and VIDEO editions-at
>>least one I have)
>did restore the original credits for a while. My
>biggest objection is to CNUK and its insistance on
>cutting the credits off and replacing them with a
>single set of credits, sometimes not even
>applicable to the show being shown.
That sucks. Didn't think your guys had it bad. I'm always wondering
whatever happen to those credits anyway, destoryed permanently?
Would've seem like a bad idea if they were to re-create them all
digitally for each episode unless they would find that a tiresome
project.
>Fox are even worse, since they cut nearly all the
>creds off, and ALL of them insist in cluttering the
>screen up with DOGs and other rubbish.
Sounds like the same s__t they're doing over here too. I don't know how
this ever came up at all. I hate it myself, and it ruins the enjoyment
I have at watching anything on TV anymore.
><snip>
>>I hated how they either made Daffy Duck too
>>"cranky" or softened the Chipmunks and Donald
>>Duck's nephews in the 1980s!!
>Oh yes, the fake Daffy. The earlier Daffy was
>always much better, IMO.
To me, I blame the later recording engineers for not speeding up the
recordings of Mel's Daffy to get it right.
><snip>
>>Plus I hate how Top Cat and Jetsons rerun on
>>both cassette and TV with NO credits or at least
>>no original credits.
>They get them over here. Perhaps we got the ones
>you are missing! Mind you, it is odd to watch the
>end of Top Cat these days as I originally saw the
>series with that curious "Boss Cat" insert which
>pushed the credit soundtrack out of place.
Technically, CNUS has kinda resotred those end credits, but it's the
credits to a single episode for all the episodes of Tom Cat. A simular
thing was done for the Jetsons.
>>And of course I hate that Blue Ribbon Warner
>>Bros.cartoons ain't restored to their respective
>>proper original titles AND shown on CN regularly
>>(in those versions!)
>Indeed. Wasn't WB supposed to be doing
>something about that?
>--
> //\ // Chika <miy...@argonet.co.uk.>
I only hope they will. I've heard of that too. We can blame most of
what's been posted on the ignorance of the medium by those who only care
about making profits. Used to find myself pondering the whole point of
why film studios like WB and Paramount had it in their mind to sell
their libraries in the mid '50s to make ends meat. If they didn't, none
of this would've even happened, at least in some sense of it.
"I'm not interested in 27 movie channels of Japanese TV, but these days,
you need cable if you want to watch anything, it's ubiquitous."
- Thomas Wells, 41, Commerce TWP. Computer Salesman
(from The Detroit News, 6/28/2002)
Domo Arigatoo Gozaimasu!
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
TheShredder
>Fox are even worse, since they cut nearly all the
>creds off, and ALL of them insist in cluttering the
>screen up with DOGs and other rubbish.
Yep, no kidding. Assuming DOG means those adds they use to self promote
themselves. Stuff that we've seen over and over again during the shows
itself.
I wish there was a Consumer TV Group that was vocal enough and dedicated
enough to really make an impace. THE SHOWS are the reason people watch TV,
not commercials.
Getting a bit further off topic..
This would mean...
Hour Shows would clock in at 49 Minutes again, like they did in the 70's,
instead of todays 42 minutes. 30 minute shows would come in at around 24
minutes.
NO Pop up adds of ANY kind during the show. This includes stuff like TNN's
highly annoying black bar, or the Joe Millionaire spots on Fox. If you do
your publicity right, everyone will already know about these shitty shows
you're trying to pass on to us.
NO Interuptions during the credits. At the very least, only 30 second voice
overs are accepted. No Split Screens, or worse with fox being brought up
again, no Tripple information screens. Shows like Simpsons not only miss
out on the credits, but the jokes contained there in. Soemtimes visual,
sometimes audio. Channels like Gameshow Network self promote themselves
during shows like Lets Make a Deal, cutting off all the fun banter betwen
host and audience...
All the more reason why I never tape stuff off of TV, let alone watch stuff
on TV. I'll just wait an extra year for it to be released on DVD, and watch
the networks that treat programs right...
David Opstad
"TheShredder" <TheShr...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> NO Interuptions during the credits. At the very least, only 30 second voice
> overs are accepted. No Split Screens, or worse with fox being brought up
> again, no Tripple information screens. Shows like Simpsons not only miss
> out on the credits, but the jokes contained there in. Soemtimes visual,
> sometimes audio. Channels like Gameshow Network self promote themselves
> during shows like Lets Make a Deal, cutting off all the fun banter betwen
> host and audience...
Ain't *that* the truth! Remember the Simpsons episode with Homer's
mother? The final part of that episode, along with the end credits, were
a touchingly lyrical and unbroken piece of music, with Homer just
sitting at looking at the sky. The very first time this was broadcast on
Fox they let it run without interruption, and I was in tears at how
beautiful it was. All subsequent Fox repeats and the syndicated versions
always had voiceovers or something else that completely shattered the
mood. Grrrrrrrr...
Down with interrupted credits!
Dave
Chris Sobieniak
(TheShredder) wrote:
>Yep, no kidding. Assuming DOG means those
>adds they use to self promote themselves. Stuff
>that we've seen over and over again during the
>shows itself.
"DOG" is the British equivilent of what we would call a "bug" in the US.
These are those small forms of superimposed graphics containing
station/network identifications that have been around for quite some
time. In the past, American TV had allocated them to simple 5 second
intervals per half hour or so, these days, it has became rather
manditory to have them on TV almost entirely due to a number of people
who apparently don't know what channel they're watching anymore.
>I wish there was a Consumer TV Group that was
>vocal enough and dedicated enough to really make
>an impace. THE SHOWS are the reason people
>watch TV, not commercials.
Wasn't that the whole point? In it's infancy, television's earliest
efforts didn't necessariy yielded commercial success overnight. It was
the sponcers and funds that helped it to shape itself over the decades.
I'm always wondering if that sort of trend has happen to gone to the end
of it's rope
>Getting a bit further off topic..
I don't mind it!
>This would mean...
>Hour Shows would clock in at 49 Minutes again,
>like they did in the 70's, instead of todays 42
>minutes. 30 minute shows would come in at
>around 24 minutes.
That would be perfect again. Oddly it's still a standard I think in
Japan (thank God).
>NO Pop up adds of ANY kind during the show.
>This includes stuff like TNN's highly annoying
>black bar, or the Joe Millionaire spots on Fox. If
>you do your publicity right, everyone will already
>know about these shitty shows you're trying to
>pass on to us.
These are annoying as hell. Especially the one TNN does that tends to
make the heads of everyone more wider on Star Trek:TNG. I also hate
just the thought that anyone can't even remember what show they're
watching anyway, and have to rely on those banners for the same purpose.
It's as if the TV Guide itself isn't the best source for anything
anymore.
>NO Interuptions during the credits. At the very
>least, only 30 second voice overs are accepted. No
>Split Screens, or worse with fox being brought up
>again, no Tripple information screens. Shows like
>Simpsons not only miss out on the credits, but the
>jokes contained there in. Soemtimes visual,
>sometimes audio. Channels like Gameshow
>Network self promote themselves during shows
>like Lets Make a Deal, cutting off all the fun banter
>betwen host and audience...
Used to enjoy those, especially the way credits in those days were hand
cranked off a roller in front of a camera. This effect was achieved by
superimposing the titles and other logos through a FX generator of some
sort ot be place over the existing video, this would be untill character
generators and present-day equipment would be a standard. The last show
to do that was "The Price is Right" up untill the mid '90s. Too bad
there isn't a show that would parody something like this. Kinda wanted
to do a show myself where I would pick someone from the audience to roll
the credits for me!
Kinda made me turn to Japanese TV a lot, especially for the rather
longer anime closings that do have some pretty decent tunes you can sing
to after the show's over.
>All the more reason why I never tape stuff off of
>TV, let alone watch stuff on TV. I'll just wait an
>extra year for it to be released on DVD, and watch
>the networks that treat programs right...
Ditto.
Chris Sobieniak
wrote:
>In article
>, "TheShredder" <TheShr...@prodigy.net>
>wrote:
>>like Simpsons not only miss out on the credits,
>>but the jokes contained there in. Soemtimes
>>visual, sometimes audio. Channels like
>>Gameshow Network self promote themselves
>>during shows like Lets Make a Deal, cutting off
>>all the fun banter betwen host and audience...
>Ain't *that* the truth! Remember the Simpsons
>episode with Homer's mother? The final part of
>that episode, along with the end credits, were a
>touchingly lyrical and unbroken piece of music,
>with Homer just sitting at looking at the sky. The
>very first time this was broadcast on Fox they let it
>run without interruption, and I was in tears at how
>beautiful it was.
It was one of those I enjoyed too.
>All subsequent Fox repeats and the syndicated
>versions always had voiceovers or something else
>that completely shattered the mood. Grrrrrrrr...
>Down with interrupted credits!
>Dave
Personally, I wish TV was just like what "TheShredder" pointed out. Too
bad that's the only television I can dream of these days. Makes me
rather loathe for the way things used to be 20 years back.
Kip Williams
> Down with interrupted credits!
I agree wholeheartedly. Although it was sort of amusing the time
Penn Jillette talked all through the credits of "MST3K" about how
people had complained of the practice, and promised never to do it
again.
Of course, he did do it again, if memory serves.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!" --Kodos
DishRoom1
The Shedder wrote--
>>Yep, no kidding. Assuming DOG means those
>>adds they use to self promote themselves. Stuff
>>that we've seen over and over again during the
>>shows itself.
>
>"DOG" is the British equivilent of what we would call a "bug" in the US.
>These are those small forms of superimposed graphics containing
>station/network identifications that have been around for quite some
>time. In the past, American TV had allocated them to simple 5 second
>intervals per half hour or so, these days, it has became rather
>manditory to have them on TV almost entirely due to a number of people
>who apparently don't know what channel they're watching anymore.
I'm rather annoyed that they would nowadays keep plastered their logos over on
the scrren the whole time the show is on, even having the logo still be in
bright colors than being trasparent or just be on for 5 seconds like they used
to. You can't see very clearly the detail of the the fraction of the image at
whatever corner of the screen the bug is at. It may be a tiny fraction of the
screen, but still...
>
>>I wish there was a Consumer TV Group that was
>>vocal enough and dedicated enough to really make
>>an impace. THE SHOWS are the reason people
>>watch TV, not commercials.
>
>Wasn't that the whole point? In it's infancy, television's earliest
>efforts didn't necessariy yielded commercial success overnight. It was
>the sponcers and funds that helped it to shape itself over the decades.
>I'm always wondering if that sort of trend has happen to gone to the end
>of it's rope
True, in some early shows like the Milton Burle program, they would incorperate
the ads breifly into their shows, even with the singing Texaco servicemen at
the begining of each show. then came the morden practice of breaking the show
for seprately-taped commercials. But still, people watch TV for the shows; the
ads are to help the product sponsers and the TV people make money.
>
>>Getting a bit further off topic..
>
>I don't mind it!
>
>>This would mean...
>>Hour Shows would clock in at 49 Minutes again,
>>like they did in the 70's, instead of todays 42
>>minutes. 30 minute shows would come in at
>>around 24 minutes.
Hmm, out of curiousity, how much do today's 30 minute shows clock to? I've seen
how some shows like "Just Shoot Me" and "Friends" would extend some footage of
the characters acting out a joke during a split screen ending credits. As for
hour-long shows, it would be nice if they run their footage at the longer 49
minutes like the old days.
>
>That would be perfect again. Oddly it's still a standard I think in
>Japan (thank God).
>
>>NO Pop up adds of ANY kind during the show.
>>This includes stuff like TNN's highly annoying
>>black bar, or the Joe Millionaire spots on Fox. If
>>you do your publicity right, everyone will already
>>know about these shitty shows you're trying to
>>pass on to us.
>
>These are annoying as hell. Especially the one TNN does that tends to
>make the heads of everyone more wider on Star Trek:TNG. I also hate
>just the thought that anyone can't even remember what show they're
>watching anyway, and have to rely on those banners for the same purpose.
>It's as if the TV Guide itself isn't the best source for anything
>anymore.
>
>>NO Interuptions during the credits. At the very
>>least, only 30 second voice overs are accepted. No
>>Split Screens, or worse with fox being brought up
>>again, no Tripple information screens. Shows like
>>Simpsons not only miss out on the credits, but the
>>jokes contained there in. Soemtimes visual,
>>sometimes audio. =A0 Channels like Gameshow
>>Network self promote themselves during shows
>>like Lets Make a Deal, cutting off all the fun banter
>>betwen host and audience...
>
>Used to enjoy those, especially the way credits in those days were hand
>cranked off a roller in front of a camera. This effect was achieved by
>superimposing the titles and other logos through a FX generator of some
>sort ot be place over the existing video, this would be untill character
>generators and present-day equipment would be a standard. The last show
>to do that was "The Price is Right" up untill the mid '90s. Too bad
>there isn't a show that would parody something like this. Kinda wanted
>to do a show myself where I would pick someone from the audience to roll
>the credits for me!
I miss the old-fashioned blue/green-screen effect credits, playing the closing
theme (maybe a replay of the show's theme song) while the network announcer
gives a quick annoucement of the next upcoming show. The split screen versions
don't have the quaint charm of the original technique, overwelling us with what
shows will come next of hyping up of new shows or specails. Plus I hate it,
really hate it that today's TV closing credits come and go of each other
quicker than a bullet train. The nonosecond-pace speed to the credits makes it
hard to read the names of the actors, the producers, director, ect. How do the
people responsible for the show's production recieve reconition for their work
if their names go in a blur???
>
>Kinda made me turn to Japanese TV a lot, especially for the rather
>longer anime closings that do have some pretty decent tunes you can sing
>to after the show's over.
>
>>All the more reason why I never tape stuff off of
>>TV, let alone watch stuff on TV. I'll just wait an
>>extra year for it to be released on DVD, and watch
>>the networks that treat programs right...
>
>Ditto.
Hmm, how do you get the anime series? I have no cable so I find them on DVD.
:-)
John Shughart
Howard Fein
> Okay, getting to the boomer sectioon here.
>
Barney voice, VERY different from the standard drunk-bum voice Mel did
for Barney ORIGINALLY. Blanc's CURRENT Barney voice became a lot like
Butler's! It's become the standard (for Frank Welker and others)
Barney Rubble.
For Gennedy Tartowky's recent made-for-CN FLINTSTONES ON THE ROCKS,
the characters were designed and animated to look the way they did in
the initial 1960 episodes- with the same Curtin score. Additionally,
Barney was given his original 'nasal' voice, courtesy of Kevin Michael
Richardson, whose name I've never seen anywhere else in animation.
Unfortunately, Richardson really couldn't duplicate Blanc's original
Rubble rendition. (However, Jeff Bergman was PERFECT in recapturing
Alan Reed's Fred- far better than longtime replacement Henry Corden.)
>
> Getting back to FLINSTONES, I can't stand, just became they had the
new theme, the "uniformity" alibi of putting stock "1962" endings, all
of them with the same credits for each from 1966-1990 for ALL episodes
made before "Invisble
> Barney" (which remained the long late Howard McNear's ONLY onscreen credit, and with the same Screen Gems pseudo-Chinese (well, TO ME anyhow) looking
> typesetting as in the stock credits), yet with dedicated end credits
remaining, ONLY to have post 1990-reruns (and VIDEO editions-at least
one I have) ALSO scrubbed of dedicated endings, so that there's either
for post-childbirth 1963 episodes one episode "Swedish Visitor"
credits and also "Hwo to pick a Fight with your wife without really
trying" (1965) credits then later just for each season from 1962-1966
a set of credits from ONE of that given season's episode endings, and
jiust stuck onto every episode from that specific season.
TOP CAT did the same thing through its entire rerun life in
syndication and on NBC Saturday AM 1967-69. EVERY one of its 32
episodes gave story credit to Kin Platt (a very little-known entity
whose name I've seen only on scattered DICK TRACY and JONNY QUEST
episodes, and is also known for writing the never-rerun MILTON THE
MONSTER); guest voice credit to Paul Frees; and animation credit to
Ken Muse and Jerry Hatchcock. I suspect these credits specifically
belong to the "Dibble Breaks the Record", the only episode in which I
recall hearing Frees. In other episodes, one can clearly hear H-B
fixtures Don Messick, Hal Smith, Daws Butler, Jean VanderPyl, Bea
Beanaderet in guest roles. If you're a real animation nut, the
distinct styles of Ed Love, Carlo Vinci, Dick Lundy and others can be
easily spotted throughout the series.
Assorted reference material has attributed other TOP CAT scripts to
Barry Blitzter, Harvey Bullock, Jack Raymond and other writers
associated not only with the FLINTSTONES, but many prime-time sitcoms
(GRIFFITH, BEWITCHED, GET SMART, GILLIGAN, ADDAMS, GOMER PYLE, HOGAN,
REAL McCOYS). This is not surprising, considering TC often emphasizes
clever dialogue over cartoon slapstick- even though it IS at heart a
'funny talking animal' show.
Also THE ORIGINAL credits for FLINSTONES were also sketchy---Only Alan
Reed & Jean Vanderpyl got billed at first, in some cases NO CREDITS AT
ALL existed, and the above cited "Swedish" episode had Doug Young and
Howard Morris listed but it's actually, some dude named Henry Hoople
listed by many references though
> not billed, and not Doug Young, who is heard along with Morris in "Swedeish
> Visitors" episode of the Flinstones (Yogi Bear makes an appearance
> here,nonspeaking). BTW Like many others this had Mel Blanc and other main cast
> doing additional voices.Finally, Hank Corden's unbilled in amny final season
> unbilled episodes.
You're right- Doug Young is nowhere to be heard in "Swedish Visitors"
(famous for the catchphrase "HE is Olle- YOU are Sven!", which was
actually revisited 24 years later in Bakshi's MIGHTY MOUSE revival).
Whoever makes the credit sequences probably assumed the unknown Hoople
was Doug Young.
There are quite a few well-known guest actors in the first two
FLINTSTONES seasons that I was unaware of until seeing the 1994
hardcover book on the series that was probably published in
conjunction with the Universal live-action feature. There are the
veteran comic actors Herschel Bernardi (the holdup man in "Wilma's
Vanishing Money", Walker Edminston (Monty Gibson in "This is Your
Lifesaver", Sandra Gould (the moll in "Soft Touchables"), and Herb
Vigran (cops in "Kleptomaniac Caper" and "The Mailman Cometh"). Leo De
Lyon dropped over from TOP CAT to do mobster Big Louie in "Beauty
Contest". The hardest-working voice artist in animation, Paul Frees,
guested in "The Baby Sitters" and "The Happy Household". Other cartoon
vets such as Frank Nelson and Nancy Wible were heard as well. Then
there's special guest Hoagy Carmichael.
The 1960-looking 'Chinese-style' closing credits grafted onto the
restored Season 1 closing that CN now uses (for all Season 1 AND 2
episodes) only credits Season 1 guests Butler, Messick and Jerry Mann
(who played a Bilkoesque con-man character in many early eps). But
that's STILL better than the closing credits seen for many years after
all Season 1 and 2 episodes which are copyrighted 1962 and guest
credited only Smith and Stephenson. (Judging from the animation
credits, I'd say they grafted on the closing credits from early Season
3 episode BOWLING BALLET.)
Another pet peeve is that due to apparent ownership problems, SINBAD
JR. which
> I downloaded (both Sam Singer and the superioir Hanna-Barbera version)
> from toontrack.com, isn't rerun. (DreamWorks is said to be doing a version and
> there is a new serious half hour animated series.Maybe these are being regarded subsistutes, but for me there is NO substitues for SInbad Jr.and Salty the Parrot!! [PS-stupid question time- Is he in anyo of these new versions?])
Legal issues have kept many favorite old series off the air- and many
old series that we may have missed when they originally ran (not shown
in smaller markets due to lack of indie stations, or not specifically
identified in listings) and are now curious about.
In the former category, I would LOVE to see THE BEATLES, LAUREL &
HARDY, ABBOTT & COSTELLO, the original GLOBETROTTERS and many early
seventies Filmation and DFE series again. Most of these series stopped
rerunning in syndication or basic cable- if they did at all. If you're
real lucky, you might find commercial or bootleg videotape of these
series- mostly in dubious condition.
In my 'never-seen-but-curious' category fall SINBAD, SPACE KIDETTES,
WILL THE REAL JERRY LEWIS PLEASE SIT DOWN, LINUS THE LIONHEARTED, THE
BEAGLES, MILTON THE MONSTER, KING KONG, CALVIN AND THE COLONEL and
other series that may be held back not only due to ownership issues
but racial ones as well. In particular, JERRY LEWIS is said to be
slopping over with Asian stereotypes that were still considered
permissible by ABC in 1970.
>
> Plus I hate how Top Cat and Jetsons rerun on both cassette and TV with NO
> credits or at least no original credits.
THE JETSONS had run specific closing episode credits through its
entire network and syndication rerun career well into the eighties.
But that ended with the great 1985 revival that introduced the new
episodes. The 'classic 24' from 1962 were horribly truncated and the
beloved "Jane, stop this crazy thing!" closing was replaced with
'gang' closing credits (at least all the various guest voices and
animators were listed) under montage stills of the characters drawn in
eighties' style- even Orbitty, strictly a 1985 invention! Obviously,
the new episodes had the same closing credit sequence, but with
updated credits. It's kind of subtle, but while the original opening
sequence was retained, it was with different (higher-voiced) singers
and infested with eighties-style ba-da-boom-boom synthesizers. If you
hear the original 1962 rendition of the theme, the differences are
very pronounced.
At least it was possible to see who wrote which episode by virtue of a
writer's credit being placed on a eighties'-style HB episode title
card. Writers have received credit in this way in most cartoons made
after 1981 (Filmation had started the practice as early as 1974's NEW
GILLIGAN) rather than lumping them together in gang credits at the end
as was the case through the sixties and seventies. Must've been a
union issue, but it was invaluable for those who wanted to see who
wrote individual episodes of KWIKKY KOALA, SMURFS, etc.
Thankfully, CN has in recent years restored the 1962 closing for those
episodes, albeit with the credits from "The Little Man"- the same
disease that's plagued THE FLINTSTONES and TOP CAT. (They also
restored much missing footage- and the laugh track, which I actually
MISSED when it was removed from all but one of the original shows in
'85!)
JONNY QUEST may have also kept specific episode closing credits for
its reruns for roughly the same time period THE JETSONS did. CN seemed
to use a few rotating sets when it reran QUEST, because I remember
seeing quite a few credited writers in addition to Bill Hamilton- such
as Walter Black, Joanna Lee, David Hoffman, Alex Lovy, and Bill and
Joe themselves.
>
> And of course I hate that Blue Ribbon Warner Bros.cartoons ain't restored to
> their respective proper original titles AND shown on CN regularly (in those
> versions!)
>
Terrytoons also had a 'Blue Ribbon' type opening title all throughout
their TV rerun history- not that it mattered much. Voice artists and
animators didn't even receive credit on the original theatrical
titles.
Howard Fein
> Vanderpyl got billed at first, in some cases NO CREDITS AT ALL existed, and
> the abovecited "Sewdish" episode had Doug Young and Howard Morris listed but
> it's actually, some dude named Henry Hoople listed by many references though
> not billed, and not Doug Young, who is heard along with Morris in "Swedeish
> Visitors" episode of the Flinstones (Yogi Bear makes an appearance
> here,nonspeaking).
No, Yogi DID speak a couple of lines in his FLINTSTONES cameo- and by
Daws Butler, as usual. Boo-Boo also appears, but doesn't speak.
There's no interaction between the cavepeople and the bears- all Fred
sees is a rock falling on the table, sending their pic-a-nic basket up
to an unseen, waiting Yogi. It's very strange to hear a laugh track
reacting to his antics. Butler was not heard anytime else in the
episode. They even played the instrumental theme heard under the
opening credits Yogi's 1959-'61 shorts.
Remember how the early H-B shorts had full, theatrical-style credits?
Unfortunately, they've fallen into misuse in syndication and on video
over the years. CN- and I would imagine Boomerang- does show the
entire opening credit sequence of the Auggie Doggie and Snooper &
Blabber cartoons after they acquired them for Worldvision in 1994.
But, with few exceptions, the opening titles to the Huck, Yogi, Meece,
Quick Draw, Snagglepuss, Yakky Doodle and Hokey Wolf shorts are
severely edited-or eschewed in favor of the episode title card and a
shortened version of their theme. In fact, sometimes the WRONG series
theme is heard, i.e. Quick Draw's closing theme heard over the Meeces'
title card; Hokey's closing theme heard over the title card for all
series premiering in 1961.
So I guess that's a pet peeve of mine: Fragmentation and misuse of
individual character series' title sequences and/or themes.
It's probably unavoidable due to studio politics, scheduling problems,
recording out of sequence, or non-availability of actors, but it
drives me nuts when a character's voice changes- especially during a
cartoon. There are several examples I can think of:
In WB's AN EGG SCRAMBLE, Miss Prissy's (in her first, and only
appearance not in a Foghorn short) voice switches at least once from
Mel Blanc to Bea Beanadaret.
In a Season 1 FLINTSTONE, "Fred Flinstone: Before and After", the
sponsor's voice changes from John Stephenson's early in the show to
Hal Smith's.
In one Tom Slick episode (considered by many to be the weak link in
the GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE trilogy) the villian, who's been speaking in
a Jackie Gleason imitation (provided by Daws Butler), speaks his last
line in an Edward G. Robinson imitation (provided by Bill Scott).
In an early Huck Hound short, Daws Butler can't make up his mind
whether to give a chicken-stealing fox a high-pitched, prissy voice
(later used for Fibber Fox), or a deep, tough, muscular voice (the
generic pursuing cop in most Hokey Wolf shorts).
All throughout 1972's hour-long animated BANANA SPLITS pilot, there
are two such instances. Drooper keeps switching back and forth from
his familiar 1968-69 Allen Melvin to Don Messick! Two comically
bumbling wizards- a short, deep-voiced one and a tall, high-voiced
one- alternate between Messick and Howard Morris, the voices often
changing during a scene. Jarring, to say the least. One could only
imagine what kind of problems would require the producers to have
Messick fill in for Melvin and Morris like that.
Interestingly, this was Morris' only appearance for H-B between 1966
and 1985. He supposedly had a big falling-out with the studio over
money, and quit with several series in mid-production. That's why the
voices of Atom Ant and Mr. Peebles changed from Morris to Messick for
a few new 1966 episodes of their respective series. Morris vowed never
to return to H-B, a vow that was broken six years later for the
SPLITS. He did carve out a very lucrative career at Filmation.
(Ironically, Messick filled in for him as Jughead in a couple of
ARCHIE episodes.) Morris made amends with H-B and returned in '85,
doing voices for 13 GHOSTS OF SCOOBY, PAW-PAWS, the new JETSONS,
POPEYE & SON and PUP NAMED SCOOBY. The mid eighties was kind of a
revival for him, who had kind of fallen off cartoon radar after 1978
(Filmation's ill-fated ARCHIE revival and FABULOUS FUNNIES). In
addition to the H-B series above, Morris was also heard in GALAXY
HIGH, GARFIELD, and several original Disney shows. He continued
working well into the nineties in CN's COW & CHICKEN- although his
aging was very evident by that time.
I admit getting a kick out of how established studios WB, H-B and
Disney have made a habit of inserting cameos of old characters (TWEETY
& SYLVESTER MYSTERIES), mixing characters of similar vintage into
incompatible new formats (YOGI'S TREASURE HUNT), or just creating
cartoons with the purpose of cramming as many characters as possible
(see SPACE JAM, HOUSE OF MOUSE)- at least from an 'inside joke'
standpoint.
The use of incessant cameos, while fun ("Hey, look! There's Claude
Cat! There's the Gambling Bug! There's Pete Puma! HARK- THE DOVER
BOYS!!") only betrays the fact that the writers had trouble coming up
with a strong story, and find it easier to hide that fact by inserting
plenty of recognition factor instead just for the sake of recognition.
TWEETY'S MYSTERIES and the made-for-video HIGH FLYING ADVENTURE also
fall into this trap. Every now and then, MYSTERIES will plausibly plug
an old character, or gag concept, into the story, as when Tweety kept
turning into his Jekyll-Hyde monster from a classic Freleng short.
The HOUSE OF MOUSE framing segments is ENTIRELY reliant on cameos by
old Disney characters, which is great if you're a big Disney
historian, or are interested in seeing how theatrical characters from
the forties stand up to being animated overseas in the 21st century.
But considering how many Disney movies take place in earlier time
planes, it's very disconcerting to see 'ageless' Mickey or Goofy
interacting with distinctly 'historical' Aladdin or Lumiere. The whole
premise seems to scream "We're all part of the big Disney
merchandising empire-and proud of it!"
Using old characters as functional guest stars in an episode can be
effective, as when Johnny Bravo found himself with the Meddling Kids,
or Dexter was asked by the Blue Falcon to rebuilt Dynomutt. It can
also be very funny when they're used as a punchline for a specific
joke setup: In one DEXTER episode, Dad, who can't watch his golf game
on TV because Mom's talking loudly on the phone to 'Betty', angrily
leaves the house. Next thing we see is Ms. Rubble, albeit in shoes,
bound and gagged by the phone cord! To build on this, the episode ends
with Dad finally watching his game in piece- with a very peeved,
Gennedy-stylized Barney!
But in another Dexter, the one in which he grows a beard so he can
help his TV hero Action Jack, has an utterly pointless moment in which
he struts down the street in his new facial hair and startles Fred
Flintstone and a bespectacled George Jetson- both of whom are dressed
in modern 1990s garb. Several POWERPUFF episodes seem to sprinkle Mr.
J and others into crowd scenes- but why?
Another technical gaffe that drives a lot of people nuts is one that
cracks me up: voice mix-ups. This is common in series with a lot of
characters who often appear in clusters, or may look similar on
typical loosely drawn storyboards: NINJA TURTLES, HARLEM
GLOBETROTTERS, JOSIE, THE BEATLES. The effect is one of that old
wrung-out (but one I'm still a sucker for) cartoon plot in which two
or more characters have their personalities switched with their
bodies. The longer the misplaced dialogue, the funnier: in one BEATLES
commercial lead-out bumper, George speaks a very long line in Ringo's
extremely dissimilar voice.
This phenomenon can usually blamed on rushed production, or the
directors, animators and editors not communicating as they should. How
else could they let Wilma speak a line in Betty's voice- or Popeye and
Brutus both speak simultaneously as Brutus- or Shaggy and Scooby swap
their trademark scared reactions of Kasem's "Zoinks!" and Messick's
"Ripes!" But it happens-
James Vipond
Hash: SHA1
In article <239c4fa3.03011...@posting.google.com>,
hf...@nycboe.net (Howard Fein) wrote:
> Another technical gaffe that drives a lot of people nuts is one
> that cracks me up: voice mix-ups. This is common in series with a
> lot of characters who often appear in clusters, or may look similar
> on
> typical loosely drawn storyboards: NINJA TURTLES, HARLEM
> GLOBETROTTERS, JOSIE, THE BEATLES. [...]
>
> This phenomenon can usually blamed on rushed production, or the
> directors, animators and editors not communicating as they should.
> How else could they let Wilma speak a line in Betty's voice- or
> Popeye and Brutus both speak simultaneously as Brutus- or Shaggy
> and Scooby swap their trademark scared reactions of Kasem's
> "Zoinks!" and Messick's "Ripes!" But it happens-
I know of at least two other examples: On _Captain_Caveman_, one
would occasionally see Brenda's lips move but hear Taffy's voice (or
vice versa), and some _Pac-Man_ episodes would confuse not only the
ghosts' voices but also their colors.
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DishRoom1
Howard Fien wrote --
>> Another technical gaffe that drives a lot of people nuts is one
>> that cracks me up: voice mix-ups. This is common in series with a
>> lot of characters who often appear in clusters, or may look similar
>> on
>> typical loosely drawn storyboards: NINJA TURTLES, HARLEM
>> GLOBETROTTERS, JOSIE, THE BEATLES. [...]
>>
>> This phenomenon can usually blamed on rushed production, or the
>> directors, animators and editors not communicating as they should.
>> How else could they let Wilma speak a line in Betty's voice- or
>> Popeye and Brutus both speak simultaneously as Brutus- or Shaggy
>> and Scooby swap their trademark scared reactions of Kasem's
>> "Zoinks!" and Messick's "Ripes!" But it happens-
>
>I know of at least two other examples: On _Captain_Caveman_, one
>would occasionally see Brenda's lips move but hear Taffy's voice (or
>vice versa), and some _Pac-Man_ episodes would confuse not only the
>ghosts' voices but also their colors.
I remember another similarly glaring voice-character mix-up in "Superfriends",
where in one episode a quick 2-second sequence showed animation of Batman
talking with Superman's voice.
Other problems with those old 1970s-1980s TV cartoons would be that sometimes
characters would be slightly out of model or some other goof up in animation.
Such as a character would have his eyes drawn differently that before for no
reason, certain objects or characters may for a moment appear smaller than
their usual size all of the sudden, or wrong color scheme. Again such an
example would be in "Superfriends" if the "S" sheild on Superman's shirt is
drawn backwards, have the red and yellow colors painted in invertingly or both.
A same thing would happen with Scooby-Doo's "SD" dogtag and Batman's
bat-ensignia.
Also, on many of these shows and others like "Smurfs" the color scheme and
outlines of the animated characters wouldn't match well with the often static
backgrounds.
John Shughart
Legion1979
>NO Pop up adds of ANY kind during the show. This includes stuff like TNN's
>highly annoying black bar
Man, I hate this. It actually squeezes a little bit of the screen. It's sole
purpose? To tell us, in small letters on the left hand side of the screen,
what we're watching. Comon, thats ridiculous.
TheShredder
> are broadcasting to morons! (OK, I haven't been told this officially, but
> what other reason would they have for doing it?)
>
> I have yet to hear of *any* good reason for putting DOGs (BUGs if you
> insist), popups or anything else of that nature onscreen during a show
> other than to insult a viewers' intelligence or to generally annoy.
Well, when you look at it this way, half of a population probably still
dosn't know how to program a VCR, so those programing remidners may be
needed to keep that lot interested :).
Steve Carras
JACK (or Jill) that said "pop ups" or what have you exist-you know why? because
I am not illegally copying them (of course there is a debate still on that
thing), but anyways..
On other aspects of this, as a 42-year old vintage TV and theatrical buff, I'll
add something.
As I have noted before in my posts regarding Hanna-Barbera music, Ted Niichols
and Hoyt Curtin got music credit but not John Seely and the Capitol Records
folks (hell, REN AND STIMPY starting Aug.15, 1992, started ACKNOWLEDGING such
music larbies along with Raymond Scott and Screaming Lederhosen!-and John
Seel'ys listed on a few 1958 Warners shorts and in Clokey's Davey and
Goliaths, which unlike the original 1956-67 Gumbys at least bore credits at the
end), or Marty Paitch, the "third almostunbilled" H-B music composer, whose
sole music credit apparently was the first H-B theatrical way back in 1964,
"Hey There, It's Yogi Bear", with new music, almost all new music. (Marty had
a band going for a while and he and his son David were responsible for other
things, the rock band Toto!)
Going a bit above here, the original GUMBYS, besides being resoundtracked due
to Capitol Records's music library legaliest, seem to have
only FOUR episodes in their original versions retaining any credits, if the
ENTIRE 1955-1967 package had ANY credits on all episodes! (Note-the episodes
not only got different music, and such when repackaed by Loritmar-Telepictures
prioir to Warner Bros. take over and Premavision-Arrow released the 1995
theatrical, which was a disgrace from all I read-but the ORIGINAL credits--John
Seely, Dallas McKennon outside of vocal coach, Dick Beals, Norma McMillan,
etc.-no longer applying, kinda like the Cinecolor to Technicolor conversions in
Warner Bros.cartoons-,if any existed outside four originals, no longer were
there.Some one apparently related to 1970s Hanna-Barbera mainstay Alan
Oppenheimer had some nonvoice credit list, Alan was a character actor, wondered
if he did any 1950s-60s Gumby's, and likewise Joanie Gerber, since another
Gerber, Jerry, got new music credit.Incidentally,those four Gumby's of the
boomer era with credits date from 1966 and were the patriotic and pilgrim
episodes-"Gumby Crosses the Delaware", which Art Clokey'salways cited as a
favorite of his, "Pilgrims on the rocks","Pokey's price" and "Son of Liberty",
which saw the return of the groobee-a character created for a 1962 short, and
the title of it-and returning at least once more. Incidentally all of the
aboive four date, according to the copyright date, from 1966.)
Speaking of Gumby - the fact that no (c) copyright existed on older 1950s-60s
ones before 1966, and that ALL reruns in the 80s bore a 1956 copyright was
revisionist a la the PEANUTS gang bearing copyrights ONLY of the characters and
not of the merchandise in particular---I would look at a "GOO" or "GROOBEE" and
think "That's not 1956! That would be 1967-1968"(This was before the 1988
makeover in syndication:) )
_______
"WELL...there was a guy who..got us KICKED off a bus. Then there was a guy who
tried to steal a bus...and the most recent guy I dated went through a phase
where he thought that he WAS a bus"-Shannyn Sossamon, from "Forty Days and
Forty Nights".