Fenders - worth the safety risks? Rethinking my fender use.

[lum gim fong]

I have been using fenders now for a few years on my Rivbikes, but I get nervous sometimes. Where I live it rains pretty often and lotsa sticks on the shoulders.

I have heard about the stick jamming effects that can happen, and sometimes I wonder if using fenders is worth the risk.

For instance, it would be easier for me to just clean myself and the bike after a rain ride than to heal up after an endo.

Also, Unless it is a very light rain, I get soaked anyway, even in quality rain gear and shoe covers, from sweat/rain. Shoes become marshlands despite shoe covers, etc.

Today I rode 30 + miles in a light rain with full fenders and quality rain gear. Arms soaked, back soaked, head soaked, hands soaked. Rest of me was dry. So it worked pretty well. But that was a continual light rain.

I got heavily rained on in the last 5 miles of a metric century last year, in same gear and full Honjo fenders and was drenched to the bone, sloshing sneakers, whole nine. I may as well have been without fenders the whole ride and not had the stick jam crumple fender risk.

How do you cope on long rainy rides if you don't use fenders?

I wear wool to keep warm, but if I get drenched anyway, what's the use of fenders if there is the endo risk? One injury endo would pretty much negate all the cleanness and dryness I have had. And I would probably swear off fenders forever.

Rethinking rethinking.

Here is a shot from today's rainy ride. Enjoy!

[iamkeith]

Not addressing your question directly, but did you see the blog entry a while back that showed a scrunched sks/esge fender, from where a stick or something jammed and the quick release stay "didn't?"

It was pretty impressive and put me at ease a bit. Im probably a bit unique - and definitely vain - because i use fenders on my rivs more for the protection of the bike than myself. I use the plastic sks ones, precisely because they are expendable /disposable.

Holefully i or someone can find that photo

[Ron Mc]

Jan Heine flipped once when I showed this in a photo.  Tire wipers apparently installed one the wrong end.  

I've ridden over 10,000 mi with this set-up.  They reject rocks, sticks and chert from entering the fenders.  

I honestly never get a sound from anything entering the fender.  On a gravel road, my buddy's fenders sound like popcorn.  

They even scrape and shed intermittent mud.  

Yes, I've had them flipped around before.  They completely deform out of the way and don't impede rolling.  Simply stop, straighten them back out and go on your way.    

[Tim Gavin]

I had a stick jam in my rear fender stays. I skidded to a stop safely. The fender (SKS P45) accordioned under the brake bridge, but nothing besides the fender was damaged.

Since then, I use a safety tab on the rear as well as the front fender stays.

Riv sells the SKS tab.

For metal fenders with round stays (Honjo, Berthoud, VO, PDW), Portland Design Works sells an "FMF safety tab".  I added two sets to my metal VO fenders and they work great. The FMF safer tabs incorporate a grub screw for the stay length, so it's easy to micro-adjust them for a perfect fender line.

My points are: a rear fender jam isn't as catastrophic as a front jam.  But, both can be  mitigated with safety tabs at the stay ends.

--Tim; with full fenders on 3 bikes in "sticky" Iowa

Sent from my iPhone

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[Stuart Lovinggood]

I recently put some plastic PB fenders on and had some of the same reservations, especially since I'm in central Texas where it has only recently (last couple years) seemed like rain is in the forecast more often. I mostly got them so I wouldn't have to wash my bike after rainy rides and to avoid the dreaded muddbutt, but now I'm wondering if it's worth it, especially because this is my do-it-all bike. And when it rains here during the summer, there's not much I can do to stay dry that won't cause me to sweat through my clothes anyway. My usual tactic for getting through the rain is to wear a cycling cap, grin and bear it. 

The PB fenders are kind of frustrating because the metal bracket that holds the fender stays to the fender bends down a good centimeter directly towards the wheel. To stop it from hitting the tire when going over bumps or going at speed, I've had to pull the fender even further from the tire which then makes it easier for the whole thing to sway and perpetuates the problem. 

If I get rid of the fenders, I plan on finding some corrugated cardboard sign (the coated political yard sign kind) and sticking it between my saddlebag and rear rack to act as a frugal Ass Savers (also Ass Savers don't keep muck from getting all over and up into the bag). If that works okay I might upgrade to some hard plastic vinyl or something. 

[Ron Mc]

Stuart, I'm in Bulverde (1400' el) and run full-time fenders on 2 bikes, and clip-ons on a 3rd.  I rarely see other bikes with fenders (except my friends), and wonder why more people here don't use them.  

We're overdue for a June with monsoons....

[Philip Kim]

Thanks for sharing these Tim. Didn't know PDW had something thats nice and sleek like these.

Lum, I don't do any brevets or anything but commute year round.

For pants I used Makers & Riders 3 season pants, which are completely waterproof but super breathable. Not sure if they make them anymore but it wouldn't hurt to ask if they have something equivalent to that.

For summers it's a bit harder, I wear thicker nylon waterproof shorts like Sugoi or something. I ride wool socks and have gortex shoes. I try to wear the Makers & Riders pants when I can,  so the  rain doesn't drip down into my shoes.

I've tried to use waterproof socks, but have yet to find any that are also breathable.

[ascpgh]

My bikes have been fendered for years, but I had a few weeks exception on my Rambouillet pending a set of wider Honjos from Compass to arrive. During that recess from wheel coverage I went on a group ride that turned into a carwash downpour, and you are right that any ride in those environs will leave you wet, despite fenders, wool, etc. 

Having taken fenders for granted for so long, I cannot over emphasize the degree of flung road filth and silt penetration of everything on that bike including the inside contents of my seat bag tool it and my clothing. What fenders keep off me, my bike and the occasional foul weather wheelsucker is impressive and lacks the catastrophic events of warnings.

That single ride in the spring rain necessitated a more detailed cleaning of my whole bike than all of the fall and winter miles afflicted to my daily commuter. This supported my experience riding the Trans Am in 2001 with fenders on my Rambouillet. While my colleagues snarked about their weight and visuals, they replaced chains and cassettes way more often than I did. They also required chainrings that I did not (theirs: DA, mine: TA) and two of the three had brifter failures (my bar-ends remained functional).

In the years since I pedaled across the country in whatever weather greeted each day, I have ridden the same bike between Pittsburgh and DC on the GAP/C&O trails through the forests of the Alleghenies/Appalachians and commuted year round, including fender-clogging winter precipitation without any of the events warned about with fender use. I've suffered more physical injuries from the oversights and poor riding of others than from a fendered wheel jam.  

To the original question I'll submit that the wear and tear on the bicycle mechanicals when not using fenders and flaps is a consequence of fact that I can balance very easily with my uneventful fendered experience. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

With regard to the sweating, my tongue in cheek answer is buy a rain cape and ride below your sweat threshold (slow). I understand that isn't everybody's gig though. I vote to keep the fenders and maybe get some safety tabs to keep your mind at ease.

[Brian Campbell]

I run full metal fenders on my AHH and installed Portland Design Works safety tabs on the front and the rear. Thankfully, so far I have not needed them! Before you go fenderless remember that riding in rural areas puts you in contact with manure...add a bit of rain and look out!

When I used to commute into Philadelphia full time, I once was forced to follow a leaky, smelly, garbage truck for a couple of blocks. It was August, mid 90's and high humidity. You get the picture.  Due to traffic I could not avoid the stream of foul, brown liquid leaking on the road way. The bike smelled awful but a quick wash and it was all good. I can only imagine having that spray on to me, my clothes, the rest of my bike!
I have not owned a fenderless road bike since and never will.

[Patrick Moore]

I don't ride often in the rain, but I do occasionally ride in very heavy (= SW downpour) rain and let me tell you, even when riding through 6" of flowing water, fenders **do** help keep you dry. They also keep the bike much cleaner.

Do fenders make riding more risky, particularly when there is a great deal of debris on the road? Yes, but they don't hugely increase the risk, IMO. When there is a great deal of debris on the road, there is also more risk of getting a stick in the spokes; or in the derailleur, assuming you use such an effete thing. And, you can set fenders up to prevent wheel jamming: for plastic fenders, breakwaway tabs; or by attaching the front fender halfway up the fork legs.

Moreover, there is the argument from common experience, also known as quod semper et ab omnibus et ubique: people have been riding bikes with fenders for over a hundred years without epidemics of injuries. In most places, fenders are stock on bicycles.

Sweat: Rain capes do work. They do blow about, but I've ridden without undue comfort in capes in huge drenchers with huge and gusty winds. I get soaked from neck up and from knees down, but in between is cool and dry, at least if you use a thinner nylon cape. I found the Carradice Ducksback too heavy, and that did make me sweat.

I use a thin and cheap Campmore, weighted down in back with 2 or 3 packets of washers attached to the lower rear skirt. (It's been a while since I used the cape, and it's stuffed into its sack, and I don't want to pull it out; sufficient to say that 2 or 3 stacks of 2 or 3 sufficiently large washers attached by rubber band or any other method you prefer do keep the rear skirt in place and let you dispense with the annoying leg straps and waist ties.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Sounds like you have two core, intertwined questions. I'll separate them because I'm a simpleton.

1. Fender safety/practicality. I have fenders on both my Quickbeam and Hunqapillar. QB has Barlow Pass tires so relatively smooth and doesn't collect big detritus. Its fenders are set with 3-4 mm of clearance and that works beautifully for me. Hunqapillar has Racing Ralph tires, so knobbies are good at throwing larger twigs, wee branches and various detritus about. Closer fenders clogged all the time. I now use an MTB mud guard in the front and a partial woodie rear fender. Both have an inch or more clearance. I still get a bit of mud on fast descents from front and rear above my waist, and below is always coated.  I don't have any issues with twigs or other bits jamming in anymore. 

2. Clothing for wet. I used to get wet on any ride involving rain or post rain, either from the rain seeping in somehow or from my own sweat. Hilltrek's Ventile Cotton Analogy fixed that. Breathes like a cotton shirt (sweat in vapor or liquid form escapes easily), keeps water and moisture out like a pvc rain coat (moisture doesn't get in). Dry. Happy. Rides. In the wet. Grin. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk

With abandon,

Patrick

[Austin ^]

Another advantage of fenders is that they're considerate for others who are riding behind you. When I encounter someone riding in the rain without fenders sending a spray of wet road grime behind them it often gives the impression that they're kind of an ass.

[Ryan Ray]

Fenders are by far my least favorite part of a bike. I break them, bend the stays, stuff get stuck in them dent them, tires rub on them, it's just awful. But Berthoud stainless fenders work for me. I don't mind dinging them, the stays never wobble (Hanjos are as bad as SKS), the fenders themselves are strong and don't wobble into the tire and they last forever. I'm not sure if their strength is better or worse in terms of collecting debris though. 

What really freaks me out is when I see people with fenders + knobby tires. I would never do that.

[William deRosset]

>1. Fender safety/practicality...

>2. Clothing for wet. I used to get wet on any ride involving rain or post rain, either from the rain seeping in somehow or from my own sweat. Hilltrek's Ventile Cotton Analogy fixed that. Breathes like a cotton shirt (sweat in vapor or liquid form escapes >easily), keeps water and moisture out like a pvc rain coat (moisture doesn't get in). Dry. Happy. Rides. In the wet. Grin. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk

1. Rain falling from the sky >> road lime kicked up by bicycle tires. The former is even kinda pleasant if you're dressed appropriately and it isn't too cold.

Fenders are a known practical way to keep the latter off of your body and your bicycle. The folks I know who ride on the road regularly in the rain (and are not barred by rules or racing fashion from doing so) have fenders on their bike. Even clip-on fenders are better than nothing. Stiff fenders, adequate clearance, no mudflap, no knobbies, and even fenderlines all contribute to fender safety, as can break-away stay tabs and/or offset fender eyelets (move the fender eyelet to mid-fork and the fender opens up if a stick gets caught).

2. Clothing for wet--I ride in similar conditions as the good Deacon (low humidity, moderate altitude), and the Cotton Analogy stuff is just too bulky/hot for me if I'm riding (or XC skiing) above about 23degF. I actually prefer double-ventile (less insulation value, just as waterproof, less bulky, less expensive) to it for waterproof applications, and single-ventile for keeping the rain from making you miserable when working harder than your sweat threshold. 

Admittedly, I sweat heavily, and run warm. For athletic cycling, I carry a race cape (a fancy new GTX one, which nonetheless turns into a boil-in-bag waterproof once the effort level gets high, but it packs to the size of a medium Gala apple) and wear wool. I get wet in extended rain, but stay warm. 

For general knockabouting, strategy varies depending on whether it is okay to show up damp--In general, adjust effort to minimize the swamp effect, and wear well-vented, breathable clothing (that Ventile; waterproof overgloves if it is cool to cold, and plastic boots in the peri-freezing wet). The wind blast is your frenemy--cooling, but can be the ticket to hypothermia. 

 

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Stuart Lovinggood]

I want to like fenders, I really do. I know they're practical and all. But I also really want to run knobbies from time to time. And even though I have slicks on my Joe, they are 53mm wide and the 65mm wide fenders are just a lot to contend with. And so far these fenders have done a lot to distract from riding, with all the swaying and rattling and spooky noises. Maybe if I end up getting a bike with narrower tires that I'm less likely to ride off into the woods on, I'll get a nice set of metal fenders and have them tuned up by a fender whisperer. 

[Patrick Moore]

I'm curious about others' thoughts about fenders and knobbies. Fenders are most useful with knobbies, given that you ride knobbies in dirty conditions, and because the knobs pick up dirt. But I too would certainly hesitate more with this combination.

Do some of y'all use fenders with knobby tires? Your safeguards? Your reasons?

Me, I've used fenders off road for a long while, but I've also run low-tread tires off road for a long time -- Big Apples and, currently, Furious Freds, which have tiny little knoblets not likely to pick up a stick. I would have installed regular, strutted fenders on my erstwhile Santa Cruz Bontrager Race Lite, with 2.3" Maxxis Ikons, if the frame easily took fenders, but it didn't and, rather than hack it, I installed a long motocross-type fender in front (held on by a plug in the steerer; no struts), and a shortie clip on in the back, both supplemented by plastic bits zip tied to seat tube and down tube (pretty effective, if I do say so myself, but ugly).

I suppose I'd be inclined to use regular fenders, say Planet Bike Cacadias, with knobbies if I had at least 2 cm of air under them, and if I could attach the front struts halfway up the fork.

FWIW, I do use Cascadias with the F Freds on the Matthews, with the front struts bolted way high up on the inside top lowrider bosses. Not too much triangulation there, but while the front fender does sway a bit, it doesn't rattle. (And, because the Matthews has bigly TCO, I am always kicking this fender; it gets up, shakes its head, and keeps on going.) The rear is a shorty because I hate bashing rear fenders against things.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Thinking about how to best answer your question, Patrick, I realized it is a blog post. So here you go. http://thegrid.ai/withabandon/fenders-and-knobbies

With abandon,

Patrick

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:04:44 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm curious about others' thoughts about fenders and knobbies. Fenders are most useful with knobbies, given that you ride knobbies in dirty conditions, and because the knobs pick up dirt. But I too would certainly hesitate more with this combination.

Do some of y'all use fenders with knobby tires? Your safeguards? Your reasons?

Me, I've used fenders off road for a long while, but I've also run low-tread tires off road for a long time -- Big Apples and, currently, Furious Freds, which have tiny little knoblets not likely to pick up a stick. I would have installed regular, strutted fenders on my erstwhile Santa Cruz Bontrager Race Lite, with 2.3" Maxxis Ikons, if the frame easily took fenders, but it didn't and, rather than hack it, I installed a long motocross-type fender in front (held on by a plug in the steerer; no struts), and a shortie clip on in the back, both supplemented by plastic bits zip tied to seat tube and down tube (pretty effective, if I do say so myself, but ugly).

I suppose I'd be inclined to use regular fenders, say Planet Bike Cacadias, with knobbies if I had at least 2 cm of air under them, and if I could attach the front struts halfway up the fork.

FWIW, I do use Cascadias with the F Freds on the Matthews, with the front struts bolted way high up on the inside top lowrider bosses. Not too much triangulation there, but while the front fender does sway a bit, it doesn't rattle. (And, because the Matthews has bigly TCO, I am always kicking this fender; it gets up, shakes its head, and keeps on going.) The rear is a shorty because I hate bashing rear fenders against things.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Stuart Lovinggood <slovi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I want to like fenders, I really do. I know they're practical and all. But I also really want to run knobbies from time to time. And even though I have slicks on my Joe, they are 53mm wide and the 65mm wide fenders are just a lot to contend with. And so far these fenders have done a lot to distract from riding, with all the swaying and rattling and spooky noises. Maybe if I end up getting a bike with narrower tires that I'm less likely to ride off into the woods on, I'll get a nice set of metal fenders and have them tuned up by a fender whisperer. 

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 7:11:18 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

Stuart, I'm in Bulverde (1400' el) and run full-time fenders on 2 bikes, and clip-ons on a 3rd.  I rarely see other bikes with fenders (except my friends), and wonder why more people here don't use them.  

We're overdue for a June with monsoons....

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[Jeff Lesperance]

In my experience, if you're riding for a long time in any type of rain, fenders or not, you're gettin' wet, probably from all angles. If you're riding short distance in heavy rain, same deal, you're gettin' wet. Short distance in light rain, fenders help me a lot. 

That being said, my favorite use for fenders is not when the rain is falling from the sky, rather when it's puddled on the ground. I just got a new bike last week (All City Space Horse Disc) and the procuring of fenders was an afterthought (and I just got 'em and installed 'em today), so I've ridden the last week without fenders. Well I'm a bike commuter on most days, and as I have a new bike, I want to ride it every day regardless of commuting, and we've had a bit of rain on and off for the past week here in the Washington DC metro area, so I've been through many a puddle. My memory, and backside, has been refreshed as to the sensation of dirty puddle water being splashed up onto my backside by my rear tire. It's not awesome. I'm so happy to have installed fenders today.

On the topic of safety in general... well there's a lot of risk/reward in riding a bike, and I accept that some day I may pickup a stick or rock between fender and tire and it might be an exciting affair. Generally I use fenders that have a breakaway attachment on the front, but not all my fenders have that, and so be it.

Regarding Patrick's question regarding knobby tires and fenders - I tested this extensively a few years ago in preparation for a cross-Pennsylvania bike tour that promised >50% offroad riding in some fashion, whereas Bruce Gordon Rock n' Road tires were my tire of choice. I tested riding them with fenders on the C & O canal trail (unpaved packed gravel) a few times and had a few too many close calls with rocks getting picked up in the soft knobbies and pinging out the side of the fenders just a moment before they threatened to halt my forward movement entirely, or dig into the tire. I opted to tour with the Rock n' Roads, and without fenders.

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

[Patrick Moore]

Deacon and Jeff: thanks for the knobbies + fenders perspective. Reason for asking, one day I may swap the hardly-knobs F Freds for something more knobby, particularly as the Thunderburts are said to outroll even the F Freds.

Question, Patrick: the Thunderburt knobs are hardly bigger than those on the F Freds. Still: are the knobs too big for comfort and fenders together? I suppose that by the time you are at the Racing Ralph or R&R size-knob, you are clearly at more risk. 

Jeff: I have to say that, from my experience with downpours that, in well under an hour, dump enough rain to flood my access road a good 6" above the 12" high bb of the Diamond Back mtb fixie I was riding, fenders still help to keep my saddle and backside dry. We get a citywide average of 8-9"/year, ranging from 14" or so at the Sandia foothills to 5" or so in some parts of the west mesa. Real gutters and drains are rare; most streets are themselves gutters, feeding runoff to a system of engineered arroyos; so that you often find yourself riding through a temporary river as runoff is shunted toward the curbs where cyclists ride.

And, please post ride experience and photos of the new Space Horse. I am very, very chuffed at the so-large and ever growing "road bike for dirt" segment, and from the All City site, this seems to be a particularly elegant example, with a particularly elegant fork. (Me, I need fatter tires than 42s for our sandy conditions, whence the TCO compromise with the Matthews for 60s + fenders capability.)

[George Schick]

Patrick and others - I'd say it all depends on the conditions in which you're riding and the kind of bike you ride.  IOW, it's up to the individual.  I live in an area where many of the trails are constructed from compacted limestone "screenings," the finest crushed stone and dust that winds up at the bottom of the limestone quarry crushing machines.  In the drier Summer months this stuff makes a fine riding surface for just about any bike.  But in the early Spring and late Fall these trails get very sloppy.  A MTB is preferred riding - or at least a flexible frame road bike with knobby tires.  To this end, I ride a dual suspension MTB during these time.  BUT, I always wound up with a lot of mud from this stuff all over me and the frame.  So, I decided to find a way to mount full fenders on this bike to minimize the effects of the mud-spray (something I was told I could not do with a dual-boing MTB, but decided to find a way to do it anyway).  Here's a pic of the results and, yes, it works without a problem with the knobby's:

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 3:04:44 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm curious about others' thoughts about fenders and knobbies. Fenders are most useful with knobbies, given that you ride knobbies in dirty conditions, and because the knobs pick up dirt. But I too would certainly hesitate more with this combination.

Do some of y'all use fenders with knobby tires? Your safeguards? Your reasons?

Me, I've used fenders off road for a long while, but I've also run low-tread tires off road for a long time -- Big Apples and, currently, Furious Freds, which have tiny little knoblets not likely to pick up a stick. I would have installed regular, strutted fenders on my erstwhile Santa Cruz Bontrager Race Lite, with 2.3" Maxxis Ikons, if the frame easily took fenders, but it didn't and, rather than hack it, I installed a long motocross-type fender in front (held on by a plug in the steerer; no struts), and a shortie clip on in the back, both supplemented by plastic bits zip tied to seat tube and down tube (pretty effective, if I do say so myself, but ugly).

I suppose I'd be inclined to use regular fenders, say Planet Bike Cacadias, with knobbies if I had at least 2 cm of air under them, and if I could attach the front struts halfway up the fork.

FWIW, I do use Cascadias with the F Freds on the Matthews, with the front struts bolted way high up on the inside top lowrider bosses. Not too much triangulation there, but while the front fender does sway a bit, it doesn't rattle. (And, because the Matthews has bigly TCO, I am always kicking this fender; it gets up, shakes its head, and keeps on going.) The rear is a shorty because I hate bashing rear fenders against things.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Stuart Lovinggood <slovi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I want to like fenders, I really do. I know they're practical and all. But I also really want to run knobbies from time to time. And even though I have slicks on my Joe, they are 53mm wide and the 65mm wide fenders are just a lot to contend with. And so far these fenders have done a lot to distract from riding, with all the swaying and rattling and spooky noises. Maybe if I end up getting a bike with narrower tires that I'm less likely to ride off into the woods on, I'll get a nice set of metal fenders and have them tuned up by a fender whisperer. 

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 7:11:18 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

Stuart, I'm in Bulverde (1400' el) and run full-time fenders on 2 bikes, and clip-ons on a 3rd.  I rarely see other bikes with fenders (except my friends), and wonder why more people here don't use them.  

We're overdue for a June with monsoons....

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[George Schick]

Whoops, wrong bike. Here's the other one (hopefully):

[Deacon Patrick]

Oddly I do not notice more detritus pickup with Racing Ralphs than Thunder Burts, though I certainly imagine they do, it's just not noticeable.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

Now that one looks like it has a suspended rear.  I was wondering how they managed to suspend the rear wheel on that other one...

[Dave Small]

Thanks for linking to the safety tabs.  I was unaware anything like that existed.  Any chance you could post a picture of them with your VO fenders?

I like fenders on any bike that might get caught out in the rain, and have VO fenders on several bikes.  I've sometimes pondered the negative safety aspects, but have kept living on the edge!  At one point I was gonna try Riv's plastic fenders, but they're only 45mm wide.  On a Sam with 38mm tires I decided I'd rather have VO's 52mm Zeppelins without the release than have Riv's 45mm fenders with them.  If I could have the best of both worlds . . .

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 7:48:29 AM UTC-4, Tim Gavin wrote:

[Ron Mc]

Something else to point out here.  Tires picking up debris doesn't happen just with fenders.  One day on my Moser, the rear tire picked up a damp stick from a chert wash and locked up the rear wheel at the brake.  

[Bill M.]

I remember Bike Snob posting something about riding in NYC like "Fenders, because if you're lucky it's only urine".

Bill

Stockton, CA

[Michael Hechmer]

I have used fenders consistently since the late 90s.  I ride a lot of dirt roads without incident.  My wife once got something caught in her rear fender and broke it, but it did not cause her to fall.  I find metal fenders a lot easier to live with than plastic.  The latter may be easier to install but they also get knocked out of alignment a lot more easily.   Also, instead of aiming for the perfect curve, I aim to have the entry point for stones & sticks to be smaller than the exit point.  That way anything that can get in can also get out.  I don't us fenders to keep me clean or dry.  I shower regularly.  I use fenders to keep the drive train and bags clean & dry.  Chains, rings, cranks, cogs & derailleurs are a pia to clean.  I prefer bike bags that sit above the fenders.

Michael

[Jeff Lesperance]

Regarding Riv's plastic fenders at 45mm wide, those, I believe, are SKS thermoplastic, and I've run them without a problem with 700x38 Compass Barlow pass tires. That being said, I just purchased and installed a set of Planet Bike Cascadia ALX (aluminum) 50mm wide fenders and they installed with ease, have a nice profile and plenty of wiggle room over the Barlow Pass tires. 

PB fenders: http://ecom1.planetbike.com/7055-8.html

I've always had good luck and enjoyed working with SKS hardware, which appears opposite to most folks' experience, and the Planet Bike hardware, in my opinion, is a slight step down from the SKS hardware. I've also installed many pairs of VO fenders, and they are definitely more fiddly to install, though tend to stay in proper shape and form over time. 

PB fenders over Barlow Pass:

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[Jeff Lesperance]

Patrick - are you speaking about keeping your backside dry traversing deep puddles and gutters AFTER the downpour or during? I say during a downpour, your backside is getting wet from above enough such that any tire spray from below is negligible in terms of wetness, though it may be more foul from below, but yes, after a downpour, fenders will work wonders in any depth of water to keep spray off of the feet and the back.

I'll post up some Space Horse Disc thoughts over on iBob in the near future - waiting for the new bike glow to wear down a bit to avoid an overly-gushing review.

Regarding Thunder Burts - I can't compare the knobbies to Furious Freds, but vs. my BG Rock n' Roads, the knobbies are downright diminutive. I'd not sweat Thunder Burts under fenders remotely as much as I did the Rock n' Roads. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/27/2017 03:19 PM, Jeff Lesperance wrote:
> Patrick - are you speaking about keeping your backside dry traversing
> deep puddles and gutters AFTER the downpour or during? I say during a
> downpour, your backside is getting wet from above enough such that any
> tire spray from below is negligible in terms of wetness, though it may
> be more foul from below, but yes, after a downpour, fenders will work
> wonders in any depth of water to keep spray off of the feet and the back.

"Tire spray from below" is never "negligible". And "more foul" hardly
begins to describe it if you are riding in a place where Amish and
Mennonite buggies have been using the roads -- as is the case in areas
of Southern Maryland where I ride, and in Lancaster PA (where the
Covered Bridge Metric seems to have rain about as often as it does not).

As for the subject of this thread: let me say today I cheated death yet
again, as I have done time and time again over the years. I've never
picked up a stick, and when Jan Heine inquired on this subject among the
old French randonneurs they'd never seen crumpled metal fenders. If you
ride roads and use metal fenders and have proper clearance in your
installation, then pretty much this is a non-issue about on a par with
worrying about being struck by lightning.

[Patrick Moore]

Jeff: just saw this. I mean, fenders and properly weighted raincape keep my backside dry during downpours and while riding through deep puddles. My feet and legs to knee get wet, but not anything above the knee (the knee is more or less the dividing point). Perhaps you didn't see my reference to the rain cape.

(This isn't addressed to Jeff, but to the person starting the thread.) With the mileage Steve P does, I have to give some weight to his observation. (Reluctantly.) And once again, how many millions of riders ride daily and have ridden daily for a century or more with fenders, and without incident?

Patrick Moore, who just rode his fenderless gofast on the hilly and windy westside (to and around and about the Petroglyph Nat Mnt area) without any fenders whatsoever!

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[Dave Johnston]

I wanted to run semi knobbies on the Atlantis for the C&O canal so came up with this ugly setup. The front is a stay-less MTB fender that at least keeps the spray off the water bottles, headset, and out of your face (but not your shoes or the drivetrain). The rear has lots of clearance but that was because I had been experimenting with tires and didn't want to readjust the fender line each time. This helped alot to keep the trail grime off me and the bike. The CnO stays wet days after it rains. The front flops around but doesn't touch the tire and seems not to catch sticks.

-Dave J

[Evan E.]

Here's a bike with PDW Full Metal Fender safety tabs fore and aft:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BySv3cYuQv47eUNSUlZWVW5EcnM/view?usp=sharing

(Yes, I adjusted the front fender to increase the distance between fender and tire. The safety tabs make adjustments easy.)

[William deRosset]

Dear Steve,

On roads, metal fenders, reasonable clearance, and slicks? Lightning will strike first. Knobbies, rocky single-track, plastic fenders, tight trails in the woods? Buy spares.

My Wednesday Night Lights bike goes through two Honjos a year because I set my 650b machine up for gravel road travel/commuting and take it Hucking/ mountain biking at night after work. If I were better at manualing a bike over unexpected drops it would be no problem.

No trouble with sticks etc., but I kill front fenders on drop-offs. My rear light wiring got sheared off last week. It is time to pound out the fenders and run a new wire.

As a point of comparison, my RH, with 40k plus miles on the road, is on its original front fender....

When I still used SKS fenders, I blew through a couple of fronts a year just knocking around on the road, and got knocked down a couple of times. Metal fenders, properly mounted, are a vig step up in both reliability and efficiency. They are also ordinarily about 200g lighter than the same width chromoplaatics. Honjos or Berthoud are both pretty challenging to mount to Rivendells with horizontal dropouts, as Grant didn't set his bridges carefully..

Best,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO

[Nick Payne]

On Friday, 26 May 2017 16:42:17 UTC+10, lum gim fong wrote:

I have been using fenders now for a few years on my Rivbikes, but I get nervous sometimes. Where I live it rains pretty often and lotsa sticks on the shoulders.

I have heard about the stick jamming effects that can happen, and sometimes I wonder if using fenders is worth the risk.

If you're worried about that, you'd better stop riding a bike that has fork blades, which are considerably stouter than the most rigid and firmly fixed of fender stays.

Squirrel meets fork:

 

[Deacon Patrick]

20 spokes is an invitation for a lot of things to go wrong.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Brian Campbell]

I did a refresh on my AHH which now sports 10 spd friction and sized down from 38mm EL Barlow Pass to 35mm EL Bon Jon Pass tires.

[Chris Chen]

This thread is bit confusing to me.

Fender related crashes seem anecdotal, I live in western Oregon so rain is far from anecdotal.

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[ascpgh]

Tread compounds vary in affinity to mud and snow. I'm sure there is some intention to that attribute. I had a set of Tioga Route 66 "mud" tires that , despite a full knobby pattern, didn't fill in and accumulate mud. The unintentional benefit I discovered was that snow didn't stick either. 

A later 2.2" knobby tire in the snow complete with "bad idea" fenders:

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Deacon Patrick]

Excellent point, Andy. I have indeed noticed my Racing Ralphs are excellent at not collecting much mud or snow and then rapidly throwing off any that does get on. I suspect a combination of tread pattern and compound.

With abandon,

Patrick

[John Hawrylak]

Steve

Well Stated.

Do you use the safety tabs with the metal fenders??

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[John Hawrylak]

Steel, Al, Ti or Carbon???

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

 

[Ron Mc]

whodathunk carbon fork found its break-away safety niche

[Lee Legrand]

Dear John,

Did a squirrel get stuck within the wheel while riding, causing the crack in the fork?

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[Ron Mc]

squirrels are more frightening than charging deer, because they try twice to run through your spokes.  

A buddy was laughing me on a wooded greenway for ringing my bike bell at squirrels.  

[Lee Legrand]

Dear Ron,

I was just speaking to someone about squirrels while driving and how that person tries to avoid hitting them but she mentioned that they always seem to run across the street, at the last minute.

[Ron Mc]

and back across

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:11:55 AM UTC-5, Lee Legrand wrote:

Dear Ron,

I was just speaking to someone about squirrels while driving and how that person tries to avoid hitting them but she mentioned that they always seem to run across the street, at the last minute.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

squirrels are more frightening than charging deer, because they try twice to run through your spokes.  

A buddy was laughing me on a wooded greenway for ringing my bike bell at squirrels.  

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 7:54:16 AM UTC-5, Lee Legrand wrote:

Dear John,

Did a squirrel get stuck within the wheel while riding, causing the crack in the fork?

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[Michael Hechmer]

More gears, less tire. Interesting choice.  I look forward to a post from you on how the tires compare and how the 10 spd friction works out.  Do include more specifics about the drive chain.... and start a new thread.

Michael

[John Hawrylak]

Lee

Don't know, was just asking the question about what is fork material.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:54:16 AM UTC-4, Lee Legrand wrote:

[Mark in Beacon]

That's why they call 'em squirrels--'cause they're squirrelly. Hello.

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 9:11:55 AM UTC-4, Lee Legrand wrote:

Dear Ron,

I was just speaking to someone about squirrels while driving and how that person tries to avoid hitting them but she mentioned that they always seem to run across the street, at the last minute.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

squirrels are more frightening than charging deer, because they try twice to run through your spokes.  

A buddy was laughing me on a wooded greenway for ringing my bike bell at squirrels.  

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 7:54:16 AM UTC-5, Lee Legrand wrote:

Dear John,

Did a squirrel get stuck within the wheel while riding, causing the crack in the fork?

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[John Bokman]

I second Michael's wish for further information.

I use Barlows, and although I've got plenty of clearance with my Berthoud fenders, I have often thought I'll try the Bon Jons when I eventually wear the tread down. I like the ride with the Barlows, but I also liked the ride with Jack Brown Greens, because it was a bit quicker to turn. Since I mostly ride on road, I don't really need the 38mm width. So maybe the Bon Jons would be the Goldilocks tire for me. Yet, I worry that the tire, being "tubeless compatible" might be difficult to seat on my Velocity Synergy rims?

[William R.]

When the weather gets generally dry I prefer to not have fenders on my Appaloosa. We do have a lot of squirrelly squirrels here in the north eastern US. Lots of rabbits too on the MUP. They behave differently from squirrels but also unpredictably! So, yes, I worry about that happening. Sticks too. Hasn't happened yet, but still... I would say it's about 50/50 for the year on average having fenders on/off. I totally agree with bsnyc about riding through unknown nasty stuff in the city too. So when I head in that direction I like to be covered. It has been pretty wet here for most of May. My morning ride for the 1st of June was no different. My back side and saddle bag stay dry as does the headset. But with all of the organic matter falling from the trees right now I've been getting this mess. I think I will try to make a mud flap from an old water bottle tonight and see how that goes. Seems like I just need one on the front so I will start with that. Those are the P65s over Maxxis Torches if anyone wants to know. 

Bill in Westchester, NY

 

[John Hawrylak]

William R

 

I used the vinyl rubber mud flaps from Planet Bike on the front SKS P45.  Extends a good 6", fit good and looks good.  Drilled 2 holes in fender and secured with a tie wrap.  

 

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

 

 

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[William R.]

Thanks John. I will keep them in mind. Also the colorful new ones that Riv has. Last night I crudely cut one out of an old water bottle and duct taped it to the front fender. Of course it was completely dry out there this morning. If it has the desired result I may "upgrade" to an actual product mudlap at some point.

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Stuart Lovinggood]

After a couple battles with toe overlap, none of which ended in total disaster but still troubling, I decided to postpone my fender experience and swapped out slicks and fenders for Smart Sams on my Joe. I am pleased with this decision. Maybe I'll take any intermittent rainy weather we get here in Austin as a sign to take a break from the bike, and the fenders didn't do much to keep the Texas dust off my drivetrain. I'll save them if/when I move to a wetter climate. 

OT but IMO, a lugged bike with knobby tires gets me going in a certain way. 

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 1:42:17 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:

I have been using fenders now for a few years on my Rivbikes, but I get nervous sometimes. Where I live it rains pretty often and lotsa sticks on the shoulders.

I have heard about the stick jamming effects that can happen, and sometimes I wonder if using fenders is worth the risk.

[Patrick Moore]

I find TCO annoying, but all the bikes that I've had with this character have had it without fenders, so I've chosen or avoided fenders for other reasons, and I've found that, in fact, adding a bit more TCO with fenders to a bike that already has TCO without doesn't make it worse -- in my own experience, at least. In fact, in one case, fenders made it easier to deal with: old Motobecane racing bike with shortish front center: I found that adding VO aluminum fenders (35? 40?) actually helped my foot slide off the wheel easier, or perhaps better, not catch on the wheel as easily.

But then I commuted in heavy urban traffic on fixed gears (no backpedaling) with TCO, and found it just an annoyance, not a danger. You get used to it, so much so that I automatically prepare for it even on bikes that don't have it.

So if your bike has it without, you might as well put them on.

And all that said, I'd rather not have it if I didn't have to give anything else up.