L-brackets - just do it!

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Brace yourselves, for the post is long!

(and cathartic)

Hi, all.

For the past couple weeks I've been tinkering around with my VO aluminum fenders every now and then on my new Hillborne. After only a couple of adjustments I got the front one "clear" and stable. The rear one has proved more tedious. I never quite got it clear and stable at the same time. Always a little scrape of tire-hairs or a "tick" of something shifting around. I didn't have this problem with a prior build with identical pieces involved; it was annoying.

Tonight I just figured I'd reset things. I replaced the supposedly easy-to-install "crimp"-style hanger-bracket with a two-holes-and-a-slot L-bracket to mount the fender near the seatstays/brake bridge. I had to carefully position and drill two holes, which had initially put me off the whole thing. But really it turns out that, for me anyway, drilling those holes was a lot more easy to do properly and predictably than arranging and crimping the other style bracket. I must've just gotten lucky on my previous build, whose fenders remain quiet and stable after several thousand miles. But my new bike's rear fender, with it's new bracket, is really solid and has more consistent clearance all around than my other one. I'm going to do the same thing to the old bike at some point. For now, though, I just like knowing there's a more controllable, predictable way to get fenders mounted without compromising their clearance.

*Maybe* the wrap-around crimp-style bracket is easier to install. But IMO it's *definitely* easier to install badly.

When it comes to rear fenders, the two-hole, one slot L-bracket is your friend. Even better would be a three-hole version, if and only if the third hole's positioned properly for your frame and fender.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean
who irrationally prefers metal fenders anyway

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I have been considering reinstalling the Honjos on my Rambouillet with the El brackets.  Mine have been quite stable for six or seven years now, but the classic daruma in front takes up a lot of space, and an L braket mounted under the brake bridge, with the nuts inside the fender, does the same in the rear.  I'd love to at least have the option for slightly larger tires.  Good to hear from a second person with a positive experience.

Michael

[Brian Campbell]

I put Honjos on my Riv without much fuss or muss. I have also used Berthoud fenders on another bike and they went on pretty easy as well. The VO fenders I have used were always a bit more work to get installed. I am not sure why since all of the parts involved seem pretty similar. 

[Minh]

Thomas,

So your SamH does not have the under-brake-bridge boss to bolt the fender to? Or do you not have enough clearance to use this?  On my Orange SamH i just drilled a hole in the fender and bolted directly to the brake bridge, no bracket needed. 

I saw on i-bob recently that someone had found these, http://www.flickr.com/photos/7516215@N03/7143612035 they replace the conical washer for the brake bridge and have a bolt hole on the bottom for the fender.  It's one of those 'duh' ideas when you see it.  Of course these would be cleaner looking on bikes with sidepulls but i'd live with the aesthetics on non-sidepull bikes too just to avoid the l-bracket myself :)

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

It's never been clear to me that Honjos provided very much for the greatly increased cost over VO's fenders. Keener eyes and tastes than mine may discern greater beauty. And perhaps they normally last substantially longer. And now I wonder if they are made in such a way as to install more easily.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

No, it doesn't have a brake bridge fender boss. As I understand it, the Wisconsin Hillbornes do not come with a fender boss under the brake bridge. I think I read somewhere that one could get one as an option. But that was not an authoritative source. I've never pursued one.

I use V-brakes, so there would still be some "oddness" to using the widgets you mention on my bike. I might try it on my older Hillborne. But the L-bracket still has the appeal of establish

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

(continuing)

...of establishing a line with two holes, which I think resists twisting of the fender somewhat. Perhaps two widgets?

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Philip Williamson]

Amen, brother! My fender life got a lot easier when I started riveting L brackets to my (VO and PB) fenders. A sharpie, a drill, a hammer, and two rivets. I am an enemy of the fork-crown daruma, and the fork-crown daruma feels the same about me. Riveted L brackets steal almost zero clearance from your giant tires, (with "giant" being 25mm on a late '80s race bike), are clean-looking, and fuss-free.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[Minh]

i had concerns about this, but it's rock solid for me, i think it's the combination of the bolted brake bridge and chain-stay bridge.

[Michael Hechmer]

It's a mystery to me why every non racing bike, especially Rivs don't come with fender threads under the fork crown & brake bridge as well as the chain stay bridge.  My Ebisu came with all of these and it has made fender installation much easier, cleaner, and less of a space hog.  

Michael

[Peter Pesce]

I wondered the same thing  - my QB does not have a threaded brake bridge and I was pretty surprised when I discovered that. I had to zip tie my rear fender onto the brake bridge because the crimp-on bracket thingy was costing me about 1cm in clearance...

Why wouldn't this be an absolute no-brainer on every Riv made?

[Bill]

Things like that add cost.  As the costs add up the prices go up.  As prices go up sales go down.  As sales go down profits go down.  As profits go down businesses go down.  It's a matter of finding that sweet spot where Riv can manage to stay in business over the long haul.  I expect they have considered that feature as well as many others, and they had to rule it out.  It's not like Grant and company wouldn't have thought of it.

[Ryan Ray]

Can you post pics? My crimp bracket is causing me much needed clearance I could use to stay at 32mn tires.

- Ryan

[Ryan Ray]

Nevermind. I found the ones VO sells and they do seem like they would give me a tad more clearance. 

See problem here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanrray/7219417714/in/photostream

Close up:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanrray/7219421524/in/photostream

[Michael Hechmer]

I'll bet there are a lot more people who want threads for fenders than want a bracket for a kickstand, or for that matter a second top tube on a mid size bike.

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

I agree with respect to the double top tube. There really aren't that many riders who might benefit from it riding, say, a 56 Sam or 52 Bombadil, IMO. 60cm Sam is a little more of a judgment call (in the affirmative for me, hovering around 250); but still... surely a significant majority don't need 'em. On a 64cm Sam they seem like a good idea. Are 60s mid-sized? Doubtful. 64s? Nope.

I disagree with respect to the kickstand plate. I remain perplexed as to why RBW didn't always have them. I have to assume it boiled down to cost, as I suspect is the case for any "missing" fender bosses. I've always wondered though... is there a significant effect on the frame's overall durability or "ride quality" or what-have-you caused by the plate itself or by the addition of the plate during manufacture? And if so, is it good or bad?

Superficially added material suggests added durability or strength. But added heating of tubes might suggest reduced durability or strength. And of course additional material implies added weight, which always has to justify itself in a design.

Oh well, I'm *very* glad to have a kickstand plate. Installing a kickstand without one is not hard but is always a judgment call about how much to clamp down on those stays. I'm only somewhat disappointed not to have the fender bosses I lack. The biggest improvement they would have made would be to have prevented me from having a choice: crimp-wrap or L-bracket? Had I decided L-bracket at first, I'd've had no problem. My real problem was that I initially made the wrong choice for me.

In any case, I'd live without a kickstand plate or fender bosses or even eyelets for racks/fenders if it were the only path to a slack seat tube, tall head tube, clearance for 40-622s with fenders, a stable-yet-comfy ride and a strong frame and fork. All the missing stuff could be accommodated. As priorities go, RBW does really, really well.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean
(who is midst replacing a 113 BB with a 110... we'll see how it goes)

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I can't imagine the design team and bean counters at Riv having a meeting about the threaded fender hole on the seatstay bridge, and determining that it's just too costly and leaving it out. When I think of Riv, cutting corners to save a cou

[Zack]

Literally the only time i have been like "hmmmmm, weird" when trying to get something to work on my 64 2TT Sam was when I figured out that there was no fender mount on the rear brake bridge.  Everything else has been perfect, just absolutely perfect.  It was an easy fix (I ended up just zip tying the fender to the brake bridge, any kind of bracket didn't give me what i needed because i had TIGHT clearance - Berthoud 50 fenders with marathon dureme 40's).  I have since moved to the longboards, which presented their own brand of fender frustration (Fenderstration?).  

[Peter Morgano]

Now I am an offender here with Hetres and VO fenders on my Hilsen which I still cant get to stop rubbing at 65psi so may go L-bracket soon but Grant has weighed in here before saying that those of us that are going above and  beyond the recommended tire size and/or using fenders that are a bit too small are kinda on our own. Riv speced out the bikes to take certain tires and fenders with better clearances than 99% of bikes out there and we just have to go and ask for more, haha.  Not to be the wet blanket here, I am all for pushing the limits but I dont "blame" Riv for building in limitations. Not saying yall do, I mean, who wouldnt like a threaded boss, why not throw one on the fender plate, would make life easier there too but I dont fault Riv for this.  As for the double TT, I dont mind the way it looks but have never ridden one so cant say what it adds or takes away from ride quality, which should be a big part of the discussion, but certainly not the only factor, beauty and asthestics are certainly important things to consider.

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

Literally the only time i have been like "hmmmmm, weird" when trying to get something to work on my 64 2TT Sam was when I figured out that there was no fender mount on the rear brake bridge.  Everything else has been perfect, just absolutely perfect.  It was an easy fix (I ended up just zip tying the fender to the brake bridge, any kind of bracket didn't give me what i needed because i had TIGHT clearance - Berthoud 50 fenders with marathon dureme 40's).  I have since moved to the longboards, which presented their own brand of fender frustration (Fenderstration?).  

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[Peter Pesce]

That's my point. Riv actively ADVOCATES for putting fenders on your bike, so it makes no sense to me that they'd omit mounting points for fenders any more than they'd omit clearances for them. And there are any number of things you could do to offset the cost of a fender boss or drilling. I'll give up $5 of fancy paint for proper fender mounting, for starters.

[Peter Morgano]

I see what you are talking about, and agree.  I am just saying it is what it is so to the parts bin to dig out an L bracket so I can mount it up and think about it rarely, if ever again.

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[Steven Frederick]

Riv's always preferred plastic fenders and used zip ties or the supplied sliding brake hole mount option.  The threaded mount is more appropriate when mounting metal fenders which have only in the last few years really become a popular choice.

Similar deal with the kickstand plate--demand wasn't there and Grant only gradually moved further away from the roadie concept that kickstands are unnecessary weight.

Compare the Heron Road and early custom Rivs to what's available now--Riv has moved from basically massaged versions of B-stones (Riv Road and Heron Road = RB, Heron touring and all 'rounder = RB-T and XO) to increasingly tour and dirt capable country bikes with plentiful wide-tired and fender clearance where high bars, kickstands are more accepted, and more fender options are easily accommodated.  

Steve

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Stonehog]

For what it's worth, my new Hunqapillar has a threaded fender mount on the kickstand plate, AND a threaded fender mount on the brake bridge.  It is one of the original Taiwan frames. My Waterford built Hilsen needed an L-bracket.  I would suspect it comes down to supplies and builders since these are done in small batches. 

Brian Hanson

[Steve]

I haven't posted in this group yet, but perhaps necessity is the
mother of de-lurking... This post inspired me to finally fit my 59 cm
Hilsen with some Berthoud fenders I've had sitting around for a while.
I've done everything except the L-bracket; now I'm sitting here
wondering whether anyone has tried drilling and tapping the bottom of
the brake bridge for direct fender mounting on a bike lacking the
braze-on? There isn't much material there, especially since Rivendell
keeps the brake pivots low for tire clearance... I'm less concerned
about the hole not holding thread than I am about weakening the brake
bridge. Has anyone tried anything similar or is this just folly?

--Steve

On May 19, 2:13 am, Stonehog <stone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For what it's worth, my new Hunqapillar has a threaded fender mount on the kickstand plate, AND a threaded fender mount on the brake bridge.  It is one of the original Taiwan frames. My Waterford built Hilsen needed an L-bracket.  I would suspect it comes down to supplies and builders since these are done in small batches.
>
> Brian Hanson
>

> On May 18, 2012, at 7:27 AM, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Now I am an offender here with Hetres and VO fenders on my Hilsen which I still cant get to stop rubbing at 65psi so may go L-bracket soon but Grant has weighed in here before saying that those of us that are going above and  beyond the recommended tire size and/or using fenders that are a bit too small are kinda on our own. Riv speced out the bikes to take certain tires and fenders with better clearances than 99% of bikes out there and we just have to go and ask for more, haha.  Not to be the wet blanket here, I am all for pushing the limits but I dont "blame" Riv for building in limitations. Not saying yall do, I mean, who wouldnt like a threaded boss, why not throw one on the fender plate, would make life easier there too but I dont fault Riv for this.  As for the double TT, I dont mind the way it looks but have never ridden one so cant say what it adds or takes away from ride quality, which should be a big part of the discussion, but certainly not the only factor, beauty and asthestics are certainly important things to consider.
>

> > On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Zack <zack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Literally the only time i have been like "hmmmmm, weird" when trying to get something to work on my 64 2TT Sam was when I figured out that there was no fender mount on the rear brake bridge.  Everything else has been perfect, just absolutely perfect.  It was an easy fix (I ended up just zip tying the fender to the brake bridge, any kind of bracket didn't give me what i needed because i had TIGHT clearance - Berthoud 50 fenders with marathon dureme 40's).  I have since moved to the longboards, which presented their own brand of fender frustration (Fenderstration?).
> > --
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>
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