tektro cr720 installation advice

[Brian Hanson]

I'm finding that the CR720 canti brass bushing fits too snugly on the canti posts on my new hunqa.  I can hardly force the brake on the post.  I tried a Deore V-brake and it goes on no problem.   I'm guessing the posts have clear-coat as they look coated shiny.  What is the best way to remove this?  Should I just sand it or is there a good solvent that works for this sort of thing?  I am not seeing this issue on my brief interweb search, so I'm guessing most folks just sand the posts, or I have a strange defective brake set?

Brian
Seattle, WA

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The Deore v-brakes are so much better in so many ways than ANY canti, especially the fiddly and minimally effective CR720...maybe just take it as a sign from God that you are meant to use v-brakes on this bike?

[newenglandbike]

Brian,
I would slice off a 1x1 square of 400 grit sandpaper, wrap it around the canti post and work it around like rolling a cigarette.   It won't take much to make the brake fit.

Jim,   The CR720 such an excellent brake-   the opposite of fiddly and minimally effective.   How are you setting them up?     Deore V-brakes may be good but V-brakes are a totally different animal, and not everyone likes the feel.

-Matt

[clyde canter]

Hmmm.  I had to do the same thing when I first set up my Sam....using Deore V brakes no less.   Like you said  a light polishing corrected the snugness.  I don't like V brakes very much and oddly, IMO anyway, liked the Deore's less than other's I have used.  I find all V brakes too grabby with hardly any modulation.   And the Deore's the worst of the lot in that regard. Again IMO.  Stop you they WILL do, no doubt.  I have to take into account the fact I am an amateur mechanic and possible set them up incorrectly.  I switched over to the CR720 canti's and can't say enough good about them. They are IMO a very fine brake.  I would suggest to the OP if the frame is one of the larger ones to use a brake bolt cable hanger. I had a lot of problems with my 60 Sam on brake squeal  before getting one.  The steerer tube is very long and evidently flexes really well. This combination was very effective for me.

Good luck,

 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 08:58 -0400, clyde canter wrote:
> Hmmm. I had to do the same thing when I first set up my Sam....using
> Deore V brakes no less. Like you said a light polishing corrected
> the snugness. I don't like V brakes very much and oddly, IMO anyway,
> liked the Deore's less than other's I have used. I find all V brakes
> too grabby with hardly any modulation. And the Deore's the worst of
> the lot in that regard. Again IMO. Stop you they WILL do, no doubt.

These Deore V brakes are the ones that won't work with regular drop bar
road brake or brifter levers without the use of Travel Agent devices,
right?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The CR720 is now standard issue on Cross-Checks and LHTs, which are the two models we sell most at my shop. I've come to dislike cantilevers in general, but I don't understand the appeal of this model in particular. I doubt I'm making any setup mistakes, as I've been setting them up and riding them for years, and I dislike them equally on bikes set up by others. I find them fiddly and underpowered. Here's why, maybe.

I guess one person's grabby, unmodulated brake is another's significant technological improvement in braking. When I switched over from Paul cantis to my current cheapish Tektro v-brakes on my touring bike, on the first ride, I had to make a semi-emergency stop when a car pulled out in front of me too close for comfort. I pulled the brakes with all my ingrained cantilever king-fu grip, and was startled by how fast I stopped. So I can see how a person who's accustomed to cantis and, perhaps, read enough Jan Heine and other conventional wisdom that says v-brakes aren't adequately modulated, would come to the conclusion that v-brakes aren't adequately modulated based on such an experience. But if you stick it out with v-brakes and make a few good stops, your hand recalibrates, and modulation is just fine, ultimate "oh sh!+!" stopping power is greatly improved, and cantis start to feel like something from the rod-brake era. Plus v-brakes are cheap and easy to set up - the number of forum posts here pertaining to v-brake setup issues here is nil, while canti setup discussions are a near weekly occurrence.

IME, some men and all but the burliest women are unsatisfied with the braking power of a new, say, Surly LHT with stock cantilever brakes. Now that Tektro makes long pull aero levers, and v-brakes are excellent even/especially at the cheap level, it's a $60 upcharge to go to v-brakes on these bikes. We do the swap more often than not...which means that I have a bunch of cr720 brakes to sell at swap meets someday!

[Ginz]

I found that the CR720's required a super-high yoke -- so high that I
couldn't get a long enough straddle cable. I had to switch to the
Problem Solvers wide yoke which allowed for a standard straddle cable
and all is well.

Overall, I do not like cantis but I am ok with the CR720.

[Steve Park]

IMO the CR720 brakes are pretty bad in almost every way except price,
and you could very likely spend a lot of time optimizing their
mediocre potential.

I recommend the Shimano CX70 cantis as an excellent no-fuss
replacement.

[Tom Harrop]

Hmm, I have to admit I'm not sold on CR720s either. Will the V-brakes discussed above clear 60 mm tyres, a fat fender and a front rack? I'd consider switching if so.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If its a center mount rack, the mounting post might pass over the transverse part of the brake, rather than under like with cantis. My Curt Goodrich tourer has just enough clearance for 26" fat franks (2.35") and Berthoud 60 mm fenders, and normal v-brakes seem fine. Some recent v-brake models are taller for even better clearance. The tallest I've seen are the ones that come stock on Yuba Mundo cargo bikes, but I've never seen them sold separately...unless Yuba will sell them...

One thing about v-brakes: the more expensive ones tend to have more annoying pivots and widgetry. The cheap ones are the ones you want.

[clyde canter]

Not sure.  My setup had Alba bars and levers specifically for V brakes. Changed the levers to short pulls when I set up the CR720s.  Are there any V brakes that work with regular drop bar levers and brifters?

 

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[Mark Chandler]

> Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 07:19:57 -0700
> Subject: [RBW] Re: tektro cr720 installation advice
> From: stev...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

>
> IMO the CR720 brakes are pretty bad in almost every way except price,
> and you could very likely spend a lot of time optimizing their
> mediocre potential.
>
> I recommend the Shimano CX70 cantis as an excellent no-fuss
> replacement.

Have you used the CX70s with integrated brake/shift levers?

[newenglandbike]

The topic of v-brakes vs. cantis has been rehashed again and again-   it's well-trodden territory here and elsewhere on the net and of most folks are probably not going to change their once they've settled on one or the other.        But, among cantimount brakes, the CR720s are among the best I've ever tried, easy to set up and quite capable of sending you over the bars if that's what you're after.    They're relatively inexpensive too.

Matt

[dougP]

Just returned from a tour using a rental bike with V-brakes, and now
giving serious consideration to that option. Day One I almost pitched
over the h'bars when a pedestrian stepped into a crosswalk as I was
mid-instersection. Note this was a totally unfamiliar bike and
different riding position, etc. Paying a bit more attention to what I
was doing, it took a couple of days to adapt to the braking power. An
interersting observation is that the rear brake actually was quite
useful for stopping, not just as a drag brake on downhills. Now that
I've had a couple of weeks use of V-brakes, they may be coming to my
Atlantis before long.

My Atlantis came with a low profile Shimano canti that always felt
inadequate, especially given that the bike is meant for loaded
touring. After the BQ brake issue, I changed to the CR-720s. They
are not difficult to set-up BUT all the hoopla about straddle wire
height was lost on me. I could not tell much, if any, difference
regardless of wire length. They are better than the stock brakes;
much better modulation but do require plenty of gription for a hot
stop.

My wife's Atlantis came with some really super crummy low profile
Shimano cantis that were scary even with no load. I swapped out her
front for an old high profilce canti off a 20 year old MTB (new
pads). Huge difference. Picked up a pair of the Shimano V-brakes
plus Travel Agents when Riv had the sale but so far have only
installed the rear. The Travel Agent is a PITA and probably 3/4 of
the installation time is dealing with it. If she'll warm up to the
idea of the Tektro levers that pull V-brake cable I'll go that route
to stay away from the Travel Agents.

One of my touring buds recently changed the front brake on her Surly
LHT from the stock low profile canti to V-brake. She has flat bars
and MTB levers that are meant for V-brakes (maybe part of the issue
with the cantis?) so it was a simple upgrade. Her description is
"it's like power brakes on a car."

Side thought on modulation: V-brakes were designed around MTBing,
right? It would seem riding on dirt would require an easily modulated
brake. My guess is those of us used to cantis, sidepulls, etc., are
used to using a lot of force when braking.

dougP

> > have a bunch of cr720 brakes to sell at swap meets someday!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 12:33 PM, dougP <doug...@cox.net> wrote:
> Just returned from a tour using a rental bike with V-brakes, and now
> giving serious consideration to that option.  Day One I almost pitched
> over the h'bars when a pedestrian stepped into a crosswalk as I was
> mid-instersection.  Note this was a totally unfamiliar bike and
> different riding position, etc.  Paying a bit more attention to what I
> was doing, it took a couple of days to adapt to the braking power.  An
> interersting observation is that the rear brake actually was quite
> useful for stopping, not just as a drag brake on downhills.  Now that
> I've had a couple of weeks use of V-brakes, they may be coming to my
> Atlantis before long.
>
> My Atlantis came with a low profile Shimano canti that always felt
> inadequate, especially given that the bike is meant for loaded
> touring.  After the BQ brake issue, I changed to the CR-720s.  They
> are not difficult to set-up BUT all the hoopla about straddle wire
> height was lost on me.  I could not tell much, if any, difference
> regardless of wire length.  They are better than the stock brakes;
> much better modulation but do require plenty of gription for a hot
> stop.
>

Nothing wrong with v-brakes on an atlantis. Look on the flickr group
- some good examples there. My experience with some of the cantis has
been the same. I will say I had a set of v-brakes that would not stop
squealing. I and 2 professional mechanics looked at them and played
with them and nothing gave. So I said "screw it" and bought a
different set of v-brakes (this time the avid single digits) and boom.
no squeal.

plenty of power and i feel confident stopping with them (on the
tandem). The only one thing I would prefer to have with v-brakes is
some way to disconnect the brake entirely w/something like a davinci
splitter. I can't figure out any way to do that, though on the front
brake.

-sv

[William]

"Now that Tektro makes long pull aero levers, and v-brakes are excellent even/especially at the cheap level"

This is exactly the reason I don't use V-brakes on my drop-bar (single) bikes.  For me, on a drop bar (single) bike, a very important function of the brakelevers is their comfort as a hand-position, and I really dislike the shape and feel of the Tektro-V-levers.  They are way too narrow on the top, almost like they've been sharpened to try to slice my thumb off the rest of my hand.  I use them reluctantly on my tandem, because I still prefer them to the travel agent setup, and because I must have the increased braking power of V-brakes on the tandem.  Fortunately the tandem only get used for short rides these days, but in one or two more years when my son is tall enough to stoke on multi-day tours, I know I'm going to have some serious thinking to do about those brakelevers.  I don't like the Shimano Tiagra shape either.  

The fantastic SRAM S500 is a dynamite lever for cantilevers.  If there were a lever with an equivalently awesome ergo shape that had the correct travel for v-brakes, I'd absolutley consider it.  If the S500 had a QR in the lever, I'd use it for everything.  The chart of features for me goes like this:

Braking Power:  V-brakes=excellent, cantilevers=good enough for most applications

Modulation:  V-brakes=good enough for virtually every application, cantilevers=excellent

Acceptable drop-bar brake lever choices:  V-brakes=fair to poor, cantilevers=excellent

Acceptable flat-bar brake lever choices:  V-brakes=excellent, cantilevers=fair to good

[rcnute]

Brian--Matt is of course absolutely right in terms of sanding the
canti posts lightly until the friction is removed. Doesn't take
much. I had a bike that was chromed and so were the canti posts--that
was much tougher.

Ryan

[Steve Park]

I use them with Campy road levers with good results.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 09:33 -0700, dougP wrote:
> Just returned from a tour using a rental bike with V-brakes, and now
> giving serious consideration to that option. Day One I almost pitched
> over the h'bars when a pedestrian stepped into a crosswalk as I was
> mid-instersection. Note this was a totally unfamiliar bike and
> different riding position, etc. Paying a bit more attention to what I
> was doing, it took a couple of days to adapt to the braking power.

Don't you mean "...it took a couple of days to adapt to the lack of
modulation"?

[Jeremy Till]

I think that there are so many variables with cantilever brakes--arm length/type/material, pad type, straddle cable length, distance between housing stop and straddle hanger, type of straddle hanger, fork/frame stiffness, stiffness of housing stop (this one, i think, is often overlooked), brake lever type, etc--that to say that all canti's or even all setups of a particular model of canti's will behave uniformly better or worse than v-brakes is difficult.  Thus the love/hate variation that we seem to be getting here.

What is easier to say, however, is that V-brakes, by locating the housing stop on the brake arms and not the frame, as well as the relative consistency of v-brake design and dimensions even across different brands (mini-v's aside), make them much more consistent their ability to produce a good amount of braking force.

That being said, I've certainly been able to set up cantilevers so they have the same "surprising" amount of power that v-brakes on a stiff frame/fork can produce. 

[Peter Morgano]

Just put new pads on my MB2 and what a pain in the arse to adjust the old post type cantis to stop them from squealing, almost enough for me to try V Brakes. I do all my own wrenching here at home but that is the one job that is just maddening. Cue people's comments as to how easy it is to adjust canti pads....

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[Brian Hanson]

Thanks Ryan and Matt.  To the rest of you - wow!  Start another thread already :)

Brian - heading home soon to sand them posts...

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I wonder why folks value modulation so highly? In my view, the primary purpose of brakes is to stop effectively, and therefore, the more powerful brake is my usual preference. With v-brakes, scrubbing speed in tight downhill corners or whatever isn't difficult at all to modulate, UNLESS you are accustomed to squeezing the bejeezus out of cantilevers to get the same result, in which case the v-brake will seem to lack modulation. In that case, the brake is hard to modulate because the rider has no finesse on the brake lever. No problem though, because it's easy to learn the necessary finesse.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I wonder why folks value modulation so highly? In my view, the primary purpose of brakes is to stop effectively, and therefore, the more powerful brake is my usual preference. With v-brakes, scrubbing speed in tight downhill corners or whatever isn't difficult at all to modulate, UNLESS you are accustomed to squeezing the bejeezus out of cantilevers to get the same result, in which case the v-brake will seem to lack modulation. In that case, the brake is hard to modulate because the rider has no finesse on the brake lever. No problem though, because it's easy to learn the necessary finesse.


On Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:07:00 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[EricP]

Have my SimpleOne set up with 720s and my Sam Hillborne with Deore V brakes.  I do notice a difference.  The 720s modulate, but they don't stop as well, IMO.  At least not quickly.  Had to really plan out a stop at the bottom of a descent today.  Eventually will swap pads to see if that helps.  If not, maybe new brakes in the future. 

 

Luckily, did not need to strip finish off my brake bosses.  If so, I would have just cut a strip of sandpaper and buffed the post like I was shining a shoe.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Replying to Jim: Jim, the difference between the only really nice
cantis I've used, the IRCs that came stock on my ersthwhile Sam Hill,
and all the Vs and Avid BB7s I've used, is noticeable. The IRCs were
easily as powerful as the Vs and probably more powerful than the
Avids, but the power was fully linear: squeeze harder, gradually, and
the retardation increased in direct proportion. Vs and, even more, my
BB7s, require a much more finicky touch if they are not to grab.

This is not a big deal: the "grabbiness" is minor in the overall
cosmic scheme of things, but it is indeed noticeable.

Me, I still generally prefer, in order, BB7s (for ease of wheel
changes and setup and power), Vs (ease of setup and power) and only in
third place cantis. (I leave out calipers which I like for road bikes;
this comparo is for off road bikes.)

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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-05-10 at 17:02 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> I wonder why folks value modulation so highly? In my view, the primary
> purpose of brakes is to stop effectively, and therefore, the more
> powerful brake is my usual preference.

It's because when I put the brakes on I do not always want to lock them.
Sometimes I just want to slow down a little bit, without locking the
brakes.

> With v-brakes, scrubbing speed in tight downhill corners or whatever
> isn't difficult at all to modulate, UNLESS you are accustomed to
> squeezing the bejeezus out of cantilevers to get the same result, in
> which case the v-brake will seem to lack modulation. In that case, the
> brake is hard to modulate because the rider has no finesse on the
> brake lever. No problem though, because it's easy to learn the
> necessary finesse.

Right. If you want full lock, touch the levers, or just blow on them.
If you want anything else, keep your hands in your pockets and your lips
sealed. We call that "modulation."

8=)

[ted]

What is also true is that braking power goes with force on the pads at
the rim, and force at the pads in relation to force at the lever is
the mechanical advantage. Also (regardless of mechanism) mechanical
advantage goes with lever travel. If the ratio of pad movement to
lever movement is the same, then regardless of the mechanism details
the power will be the same. Of course pads can make a significant
difference but you can put most any pad on most any brake so thats not
a credible differentiator either.

One of the key features of V brakes is that the tension in the brake
cable is lower that that in a cantilever, side pull, or dual-pivot
brake. Another, as you note, is that they don't use the cable hangers
that are needed with cantilever and center pull brakes. Also if the
brake cable fails a V brake will stay open where as with cantilevers
if the straddle wire catches on tire nobs it may lock up. All of these
are often considered advantages of the V brake design, though some
(like me) don't think they amount to much.

Cantilevers may offer greater tire and fender clearance, and allow
considerable flexibility in how one chooses to set them up. They also
are compatible with a wide variety of drop bar compatible levers.

What I find really inexplicable is how many folks seem to get so very
wound up about this stuff.

[ted]

Patrick,

Interesting comment. It seems to confirm a suspicion I have but lack
the varied experience needed to be sure of. Namely that the
variability between good and bad implementations of a given style of
brake is greater than the inherent variation between designs.

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

This is wrong. I ride almost everyday with v-brakes, and find that I can apply the brakes in a wide range of modulation from zero to "locked". After years with cantilevers, the first time with the added power of v-brakes did take some practice to modulate (two or three stops was enough practice), but now when I ride others' bikes with cantilevers, I get scared when I squeeze the lever and nothing happens beyond a hissing noise (until I squeeze really hard, which I can because I have strong hands). Most women and lots of men don't have cow-milking hand-strength and can't effectively use cantilevers with aero levers, but v-brakes will work well even for those who have less than a kung-fu grip.

I just put some Avid Elixir 5 hydraulic discs on my Surly Disc Trucker. Now THAT is a powerful brake.

[jimD]

What is the 'cow-milking' to which you refer?

-JimD

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[jimD]

Well if we didn't get 'wound up' about gear we'd have to get 'wound up' about rides.

Rides are a given, fluid sort of thing - we all do em and like em.

But gear, now that is something else.

Take brakes, for instance…ah, never mind.

-JimD

[Joe Broach]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 8:43 PM, ted <ted....@comcast.net> wrote:
> One of the key features of V brakes is that the tension in the brake
> cable is lower that that in a cantilever, side pull, or dual-pivot
> brake.

You lost me here. What do you mean by "tension in the brake cable"? If
you're talking about brake return spring tension, that's just a design
decision and not inherent in the style of brake. Modern brakes of all
sorts have much lighter return springs. My early 90s Shimano cantis
have the same "tension" as the Avid v-brakes on the tandem. But
maybe I misunderstand.

> Also if the
> brake cable fails a V brake will stay open where as with cantilevers
> if the straddle wire catches on tire nobs it may lock up.

Again, not inherent in the design. Lots of cantis use Shimano's "link
wire" design that runs the main cable directly to one of the canti
arms. If the main or link cable breaks, the brake opens. And, as you
say, not a big deal anyway.

> What I find really inexplicable is how many folks seem to get so very
> wound up about this stuff.

For a long time, it seems like new bike gear was just assumed by
default to be better. I like that among groups like this new stuff has
to earn it. OK, now that I think about it, the fact that v-brakes
still qualify as new technology here is pretty funny.

I've tried v-brakes on 3 bikes and have liked them OK. For me, they
stop the bike about the same as nice medium profile cantis, squeal
about the same, set up easier, and are really ugly. Ugly probably
shouldn't matter on a bike, but for some reason it does.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 09:18 -0700, Joe Broach wrote:
> Ugly probably shouldn't matter on a bike, but for some reason it does.

Why shouldn't it? We are, after all, descended from the same people who
painted cave walls 35,000 years ago. What could be more
characteristically human than art and aesthetics? Beauty matters.

[Mike On A Bike]

This discussion and my frustrating experiences with cantilevers has
made me question why Rivendell pushes them as the bee's knees of
brakes. I have had relentless problems with adjusting my cantis, the
boys at my LBS are no help in that regard either, and even when they
seem to be adjusted fairly close, the stopping power is crappy. I have
Paul Neo-Retros and CR-720s and the Pauls are only marginally less
crappy. Maybe the use of an aero lever with these compounds the
problem, but that's another setup that Rivendell pushes (came stock on
my Quickbeam).

I really wish I had wised up to V-brakes as the sensible and cost-
effective option before lacquering on the shellac on my Hillborne. Now
those dysfunctional levers are stuck on that bike unless I want to
undo my many hours of precious work...damnit. I am going to put a
cheap Tektro V setup on my Quickbeam (as per Jim Thill's suggestion)
and see if stopping the insanity is necessary on both bikes.

On May 11, 10:13 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

[David T.]

Since working on a bike is a relaxing, meditative activity isn't it
sometimes good if things take a little time to set up and adjust?

[Peter Pesce]

I have mini-V brakes on my Quickbeam and like them a lot. I took off the 720's because they stick out so far they were a pain in crowded bike racks, not because of the stopping performance. I started with some really short arms - 85mm - but they were just a tiny bit tight to clear fenders and 35mm tires. They cleared, but the cross-over yoke (or whatever it's called) would rattle against the top of the fenders over the slightest bump. I got a version with 90mm arms and they work great. I'm using MTB levers on Alba bars with no issues, pull-wise.

I put Deore V-brakes (and V-brake levers) from the Riv sale on my LHT to replace lousy low-profile cantis and they work great - and they clear 60mm fenders over 50mm Big Apples with no problem.

-Pete n CT

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and form follows function. I think old rod-brake English roadsters have a nice aesthetic, but I'd never go out of my way to own or ride one.

I believe a lot of cantilever-brake-love has to do with Joe B's observation that v-brakes are seen as new technology (nowadays mostly associated with lower end comfort bikes rather than higher end MTBs), and cantis are seen as classic and more high-brow.

[dougP]

"...For me, they stop the bike about the same as nice medium profile

cantis, squeal
> about the same, set up easier, and are really ugly. Ugly probably
> shouldn't matter on a bike, but for some reason it does."

I'll counter your "ugly" with the fact that V-brakes make packing a
bike for shipping easier, have less interferemce with bags, and don't
poke you in the head when you work on the bike. The last point is
probably unique to my clumsy, nearsighted self.

doug "V-brakes in my future" P


On May 11, 9:18 am, Joe Broach <joebro...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ted]

By tension I mean the tension in the cable when you apply the brake.
The reason levers for V brakes pull more cable is that the brake
mechanism has a greater mechanical advantage.
The brake lever has a lower mechanical advantage to compensate for
that. Net result is similar force on the pad with less tension in the
cable.
Now this can be called a design decision but it is the way all the
brakes we call V brakes are made.
When the same general layout is used without the long brake arms and
the higher cable pull levers they get called something different, like
mini-v brake, to differentiate them from "normal" V brakes.

Regarding the "link wire" design for cantilevers, color me ignorant.
But it sounds to me like a sort of hybrid design. If it doesn't have a
straddle cable I wouldn't have thought it was appropriate to call the
thing a cantilever brake. Not much difference between a mini-v brake
like the coming Paul mini-motos and a low profile canti with a "link-
wire" design.

Seems to me that "dual pivot" side pulls are center pull brakes with a
side pull style cable. If we didn't call those center pulls, why do we
call cantilevers with v brake cables cantilevers?

On May 11, 9:18 am, Joe Broach <joebro...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ted]

Maybe I just don't know how bad I have it, but I get on just fine the
the CR720s on the two bikes I own that have canilever studs on em.
They seem to work fine to me, they were cost effective, and I think
they look nice. But I don't think that qualifies as having "cantilever-
brake-love", whereas the folks who seem convinced that all canti's
can't stop a bike acceptably seem to have cantilever-brake-hate. It
just doesn't fit with my experience. Am I just being reckless by using
such disfunctional brakes?

On May 11, 11:13 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

[Steven Frederick]

Yeah, those V-brake levers are too narrow.  I struggled to get used to them on Noodle bars for a few hundred miles.  I had a set on another bike a while back and liked them fine so it was puzzling.  Then I realized that older bike had dirtdrop bars on it that had some flare and that might make a difference.  Sp I switched the current bike to Randonneur bars and they're much more comfortable.  Angling them inward allows one to rest one's hands more on the outer side of the hoods than on the sharp top and they work better that way.  Good lever for moustache bars, too! 

Steve

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:12 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Now that Tektro makes long pull aero levers, and v-brakes are excellent even/especially at the cheap level"

This is exactly the reason I don't use V-brakes on my drop-bar (single) bikes.  For me, on a drop bar (single) bike, a very important function of the brakelevers is their comfort as a hand-position, and I really dislike the shape and feel of the Tektro-V-levers.  They are way too narrow on the top, almost like they've been sharpened to try to slice my thumb off the rest of my hand.  I use them reluctantly on my tandem, because I still prefer them to the travel agent setup, and because I must have the increased braking power of V-brakes on the tandem.  Fortunately the tandem only get used for short rides these days, but in one or two more years when my son is tall enough to stoke on multi-day tours, I know I'm going to have some serious thinking to do about those brakelevers.  I don't like the Shimano Tiagra shape either.  

The fantastic SRAM S500 is a dynamite lever for cantilevers.  If there were a lever with an equivalently awesome ergo shape that had the correct travel for v-brakes, I'd absolutley consider it.  If the S500 had a QR in the lever, I'd use it for everything.  The chart of features for me goes like this:

Braking Power:  V-brakes=excellent, cantilevers=good enough for most applications

Modulation:  V-brakes=good enough for virtually every application, cantilevers=excellent

Acceptable drop-bar brake lever choices:  V-brakes=fair to poor, cantilevers=excellent

Acceptable flat-bar brake lever choices:  V-brakes=excellent, cantilevers=fair to good

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:40:41 AM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

The CR720 is now standard issue on Cross-Checks and LHTs, which are the two models we sell most at my shop. I've come to dislike cantilevers in general, but I don't understand the appeal of this model in particular. I doubt I'm making any setup mistakes, as I've been setting them up and riding them for years, and I dislike them equally on bikes set up by others. I find them fiddly and underpowered. Here's why, maybe.

I guess one person's grabby, unmodulated brake is another's significant technological improvement in braking. When I switched over from Paul cantis to my current cheapish Tektro v-brakes on my touring bike, on the first ride, I had to make a semi-emergency stop when a car pulled out in front of me too close for comfort. I pulled the brakes with all my ingrained cantilever king-fu grip, and was startled by how fast I stopped. So I can see how a person who's accustomed to cantis and, perhaps, read enough Jan Heine and other conventional wisdom that says v-brakes aren't adequately modulated, would come to the conclusion that v-brakes aren't adequately modulated based on such an experience. But if you stick it out with v-brakes and make a few good stops, your hand recalibrates, and modulation is just fine, ultimate "oh sh!+!" stopping power is greatly improved, and cantis start to feel like something from the rod-brake era. Plus v-brakes are cheap and easy to set up - the number of forum posts here pertaining to v-brake setup issues here is nil, while canti setup discussions are a near weekly occurrence.

IME, some men and all but the burliest women are unsatisfied with the braking power of a new, say, Surly LHT with stock cantilever brakes. Now that Tektro makes long pull aero levers, and v-brakes are excellent even/especially at the cheap level, it's a $60 upcharge to go to v-brakes on these bikes. We do the swap more often than not...which means that I have a bunch of cr720 brakes to sell at swap meets someday!

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 19:37 -0700, ted wrote:

Regarding the "link wire" design for cantilevers, color me ignorant.
But it sounds to me like a sort of hybrid design. If it doesn't have a
straddle cable I wouldn't have thought it was appropriate to call the
thing a cantilever brake. Not much difference between a mini-v brake
like the coming Paul mini-motos and a low profile canti with a "link-
wire" design.

I know you've seen these a million times.

[Montclair BobbyB]

I'm loving this debate. I have both canti and V-brakes.

I love the way the cantis look, and I'm marginally satisfied with
their performance (although I suspect I just haven't figured out the
optimal setup)
I love the way the V-brakes stop (and I have never had an issue with
setup; works great first time, every time). I also like not having to
rely on a cable hanger (for cantis), and am really liking the
noodle... brilliant design.
For certain classic bikes I'd simply prefer to have cantis (I regard
it as form over function), and I must say, I love the CR720...I think
it's an awesome, well-priced, beautifully designed brake.
For my Bomba and any touring bike, I MUCH prefer to have V-brakes;
They instill greater confidence that I will be able to bring a fully
loaded bike to a stop much better than any canti I have used.

Having said that, I have ridden others' bikes with cantis that WERE
simply the bee's knees; I just haven't figured out how to achieve that
result.

And since Jim mentioned discs, I have hydraulic disc brakes on my
mountain bikes... they are simply amazing, and these will eventually
take the touring world by storm... that's another debate I'll join any
day.

Peace and Love of ALL brakes ...

BB

>  linkwire.jpg
> 30KViewDownload

[ted]

>
> I know you've seen these a million times.
>

Could well be that I have, but being a bit unobservant I guess I am
still mostly clueless.
Looks like a straddle or yoke wire substitute with a fixed length
cable on one side and a rod on the other.
Though I don't see the clamp mechanism I suppose you fix the brake
wire to the lolly pop in the middle eh?
Is the idea that the stiff side of the inverted V keeps the middle
from falling onto a tire if the brake cable fails?
Can you adjust the hight of these things like you can with a
conventional straddle cable and holder?

>  linkwire.jpg
> 30KViewDownload

[ted]

> Having said that, I have ridden others' bikes with cantis that WERE
> simply the bee's knees; I just haven't figured out how to achieve that
> result.

If you have friends with cantis that are good but yours aren't I would
be very interested in a careful cataloguing of the differences between
a setup you find you like, and one you find unsatisfactory. Seems like
there has to be a reason.

The variety of brakes on the market is really great. They all have
different characteristics and trade offs. I like that variety, and the
option for each of us to choose what we prefer for any particular
application. Horses for courses and all that.

On May 12, 6:35 am, Montclair BobbyB <montclairbob...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Joe Broach]

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Montclair BobbyB
<montcla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm loving this debate.  I have both canti and V-brakes.
>
> I love the way the cantis look, and I'm marginally satisfied with
> their performance (although I suspect I just haven't figured out the
> optimal setup)

I'd recommend getting your hands on some medium profile cantis like
the 90s era XT level Shimanos
(http://nihonmaru.blogspot.com/2011/08/phoenix-project-shimano-m732-cantilever.html).
I've set them up several different ways on different bikes, and they
always perform really well for me. Others who've ridden those bikes
say the same. I helped a friend set up some cr720s on his Kogswell,
and try as we might they were always a bit weak.

I've also found dime a dozen low profile brakes to work great with MTB
levers, but they're hard to set up for aero road levers.

[Michael Hechmer]

Others may be "loving" this thread, but I'm finding it a bit mystifying.  

First, I've owned a lot of different brakes in the past 35 years and with two exceptions they all provided both good stoping and good modulation.  I don't know why I would want to switch to V brakes to get better stopping.  My wife and I have each had bikes with V brakes which offered good stopping, but weren't any better than the Superbe Pros she currently uses, or my Campy Grand Sports, both of these are ancient single pivot designs.

The two sets of brakes that I have had that were sub par were both cantis -Shimano 550s and the original Dia Compes on my Trek 620, about which the last post offered a blog.  I suspect that both of these brakes were designed with MTB levers in mind.  The Shimano were particularly horrendous to set up and use with Ultegra brifters.  So I  wonder if some of the really bad experience people have had with cantis is because they have been mated to levers which were optimized for short reach  side pulls.

I replaced the original Trek 620 brakes with the Campy Grand Sport.  I can't for the life of me figure out why Trek sold a so called touring bike with mediocre canti brakes, a 57 mm brake reach, and barely enough clearance for 32 mm tires & fenders.  But it is a great riding frame.

While I'm on this subject the older single pivot brakes give much better fender clearance than modern dual pivots and I would suggest it as an option to people who find their dual pivot brakes crowding their fenders.  About the only brake I wouldn't consider using today is a dual pivot side pull, despite how easy they are to set up.

As for cantis, in addition to being just as sensitive to brake line pull as V brakes, I can't help but wonder if too many of us have been subjected to low cost cantis which proved hard to set up and offered inadequate power?  After sliding into the back of a truck I abandoned my Shimano brakes and levers and installed Paul's neo retros and Cane Creek levers.  Soon after I made a panic stop from under 20 mph to avoid a right hook.  I stopped on the dime and lifted the rear wheel about three inches off the ground.  I can't ask for more than that from a brake.  

In short, make sure the cantis you are installing really are designed for road levers, ( I now use levers with built in releases exclusively - either Campy or Cane Creek.)  Learn how to set them up.  Paul's brakes, which I have on three bikes, are expensive and the set up is a little different.  But they will last forever, stay aligned beautifully and, once you learn how, are a breeze to adjust.

happy trails,

Michael