Which bike next....?

[Tim]

I knew this would happen. I've long term/temporarily relocated to Connecticut, 2-3 years, and I come back to KC every three weeks or so. Therefore, since most of my time is in CT, I took the AHH and the new Hunqa with me. So, I get home this weekend and have only the Cannondale, too small , go fast, with 23mm tires, to ride. What a difference! Although I got used to it, I know I need a more Riv-ish bike here at home. So, I'm really considering a LHT. What are the opinions out there about the Surly, and how does their sizing compare to a Riv? I will probably eventually get a Roadeo, or a custom Riv, but I'm not ready for that investment yet, and for now the LHT seems like it would be a good, comparatively low cost alternative. What say you guys? Thanks.


Peace,
Tim

[Anne Paulson]

A LHT is a fine bike, but it's not a Roadeo-ish bike. The LHT is very
like an Atlantis. Do you want a more road-y bike like the Roadeo, or a
more all-purpose bike like the Atlantis?

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-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[Tony Lockhart]

I started out with an LHT but traded up to a Sam Hillborne 2-3 years ago. I'm not sure what size Riv you ride now but I'd bet Surly has a comparable size (I had a 56cm LHT and currently have a 56cm Sam). I am really pleased with the quality of Surly bikes. I've had a Cross Check, Steamroller, and LHT--they've all been really awesome bikes. And given that a while Surly bike is around the cost of a Riv frame, it's a no-brainer. You should take a Pacer out for a test ride because they accommodate tires up to 32mm. This bike is definitely more fun to ride than an LHT. Try to test ride an LHT as well because you can also get them with 26 inch wheels.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

My opinion: The LHT is the best heavy-duty touring/all-rounder bike made, at any price. Others are prettier, or have fancier parts, but the LHT hits all the function targets as well as anything, and with solid parts that are relatively easy to replace or service on the road. You shouldn't feel like the LHT is in any way a "downgrade" or a "poor man's" anything, except perhaps compared to the classic lugged cosmetics of your favorite Riv.

As for sizing, I'd suggest following Riv's guideline for sizing the Atlantis, then go one size smaller for the LHT. While it's often advisable to go as big as possible with a quill-stem bike, I suggest erring on the smaller side with a bike with a threadless steerer like the LHT (leave the steerer long, initially).

[Robert Zeidler]

In what town in our fair state have you settled?

Sent from my iPad

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2012-09-22 at 12:46 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> My opinion: The LHT is the best heavy-duty touring/all-rounder bike
> made, at any price. Others are prettier, or have fancier parts, but
> the LHT hits all the function targets as well as anything, and with
> solid parts that are relatively easy to replace or service on the
> road. You shouldn't feel like the LHT is in any way a "downgrade" or a
> "poor man's" anything, except perhaps compared to the classic lugged
> cosmetics of your favorite Riv.
>
> As for sizing, I'd suggest following Riv's guideline for sizing the
> Atlantis, then go one size smaller for the LHT. While it's often
> advisable to go as big as possible with a quill-stem bike, I suggest
> erring on the smaller side with a bike with a threadless steerer like
> the LHT (leave the steerer long, initially).

Why? I truly don't understand.

Getting a smaller size frame means for the same handlebar position you
will have to have more steerer exposed, and not only is there only so
much steerer available, but also there are limits (both structural and
aesthetic) as to how much steerer you can or should have exposed.

I should think getting the smaller of the two frames would be preferred
only if you are looking for a lower handlebar position, and the head
tube on the larger frame would limit how low you could go -- and in that
case, I believe some have suggested taking a saw to the head tube,
especially if it has an extension.

[Michael Hechmer]

I think the answer to "Why?"  lies in where you like the bars, relative to the seat, and the size of your upper body.  For example.  Riv sizing chart puts me between a 62 & a 64 and the common wisdom says buy a 64.  But I like my bars about 2 cm below the seat, so I am just about perfect on the 62, and even my 61 cm Trek 620 works just fine.  If I preferred the bars 2 cm above the seat the 62 cm Ram would still work with lots of quill and the 61 cm Trek might be pushing it.  In that case the 64 cm bike would be right on.  

I agree with the post that the LHT isa good alternative to the Atlantis, but not to the Rodeo.  If you are looking for something with a ride comparable to the Rodeo both SOMA & Surly offer lower cost road bikes with a livelier ride.  If it were me I would keep my nose on Ebay for a good road frame, circa 1975 -1990.  But you do have to be careful to scope out the geometry pretty carefully.  Or I would post a WTB here and on the Lifestyles list. 

[IanA]

People like the Cross Check too - and now they've come out (or are coming out with) with a Single Speed version.  The SS is the same frame, just specc'd complete as a single speed.

[Michael_S]

The Soma Double Cross is a nice bike too, Soma Fab. sells a lot of Riv type stuff too.  Or Black Mountain Cycles cross bike. Both will fit some nice fat (45mm) tires. Both are lighter and nicer ( IMO) then the LHT for most all purpose riding.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

Peace,
Tim

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I have a Surly Pacer, and that would be more roadish and now comes in a complete bike--best of all, they are great candidates for a 650b conversion. The LHT is also an excellent bike. When my friends can't spring for a Riv, I steer them toward a Surly.

Toshi

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[Joe Bernard]

How's about a San Marcos?

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[William]

I really like my black mountain cycles road frame.  He also sells a monster cross.  Very affordable. 

http://www.blackmtncycles.com/

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:20:12 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:

[Peter Morgano]

Uhhh, those are nice motorcycles, really. But maybe a different link? :)

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 9:03 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you need a roadish bike that will take wider tires, consider the Road Frame by Black Mountain Cycles.  I like mine a great deal

www.blackmountaincycles.com

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:20:12 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:

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[Bertin753]

I would look closely at a Soma Smoothie (or the SS ES if you want overized tubing. Cheap and per reports a very nice ride.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Steve P: all LHT steelers are the same length. This means you can get the bars at the same height on a 56 cm as you can on a 64 cm. As you mentioned, the exposed steerer and spacer stack is the difference. With a quill stem, you can get the bars higher on a larger frame, which is one reason why Riv suggests larger frame sizes.

But let's say you're between two LHT sizes. Most people want the bars closer, not farther. If you go slightly smaller on the frame size, you can put on a slightly longer stem if needed. If you have a big frame and a short stem, you can't necessarily go shorter. Again, bar height doesn't vary between frame sizes.

Also, the way frames are measured varies between Riv and Surly. A 58 Atlantis is closer to a 56 LHT than it is to a 58 LHT, for example.

[ted]

Jim, please elaborate on how the frame measurement methods differ. The
Surly web site seems to indicate measured center to top, which I
thought was the RBW convention as well.

On Sep 22, 7:14 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Eric Daume]

Surly measures center to top of the top tube. I think Riv measures to the top of the seat tube (so includes the extension)

Eric Daume
Dublin, OH

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2012-09-22 at 19:14 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> Steve P: all LHT steelers are the same length. This means you can get the bars at the same height on a 56 cm as you can on a 64 cm. As you mentioned, the exposed steerer and spacer stack is the difference. With a quill stem, you can get the bars higher on a larger frame, which is one reason why Riv suggests larger frame sizes.

So with LHT steerers, the only limitation on exposed steerer length is
aesthetic?

> But let's say you're between two LHT sizes. Most people want the bars closer, not farther. If you go slightly smaller on the frame size, you can put on a slightly longer stem if needed. If you have a big frame and a short stem, you can't necessarily go shorter. Again, bar height doesn't vary between frame sizes.
>
> Also, the way frames are measured varies between Riv and Surly. A 58 Atlantis is closer to a 56 LHT than it is to a 58 LHT, for example.

In other words, top tube length. OK, how are LHT top tubes sized? I'm
confident the expectation with that bike is drop bars, which would lead
to a shorter top tube than might be the case with a bike intended to be
used with porteur bars, such as many of the Rivendells and the Kogswell
P/R.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Yes, the only limit on exposed steerer on Surly frames is aesthetic. This may not be the case for other manufacturers.

I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of top-tube lengths, but that info is available on the Internet for anyone to compare. But yes, since bar height doesn't have to be a variable on the LHT, top tube length is the most useful sizing parameter.

Very often people who want to buy a Surly will use Riv's sizing scheme. But like someone above said, the Surly 58 cm is more like a 60-61 cm if you measure center bb to top of the seat tube. And the top tube in most sizes of LHT or Cross-check is very close to nominal frame size (i.e. 58 c-c on a 58 frame). I have no idea if this makes the frame more suitable for drop bars or for porteur bars, but for most people who go with Riv's PBH-based sizing guideline and drop bars, it results in a stem that's sub-90mm (short) and tightish stand over. Twice I've had LHT customers who couldn't let go of the Riv size recommendation despite my having explained this ad nauseum...and then a week after the purchase ask to do a frame swap for a smaller size. The customer is always right!

[naw...@comcast.net]

Or the Bruce Gordon BLT

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html 

Dave Nawrocki

Fort Collins, CO

---

From: "Joe Bernard" <joer...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 5:57:48 PM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Which bike next....?

How's about a San Marcos?

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

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[Lyle Bogart]

Or, just to put out another possibility, how about a Nordavinden or Drakkar2 from Rawland? I have an earlier Drakkar (fixed gear) and am always delighted to ride it.

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/

https://plus.google.com/photos/108961230290044866302/albums/5391146948986199089?authkey=CJWL1IOdg72Mew

The 2nd link is my Drakkar (without fenders. . . )

Cheers!

lyle

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lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[Lyle Bogart]

If you check out the Rawland sit, see July 3, 2012 blog entry for some nice shots of the frame details.

Cheers!

lyle

[Bill M.]

If what you want is a Roadeo-ish light, quick, comfortable road bike that wil accept 32+ mm tires, the Nordavinden is up your alley.  I have really been enjoying mine.  

The Black Mountain is probably also a great buy, but I have no personal experience with that one.  Here's a link with fewer motors:

http://www.blackmtncycles.com/p/welcome.html

Bill

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

So many great options!

[Peter Pesce]

+1 on the Double Cross. I just bought one to replace my LHT which was too heavy duty and a bit too small. The Soma bikes seem to have slightly nicer tubes and finish than the Surlys, in my limited experience.

Pete in CT

[VeloZen]

 

The Surly LHT is certainly a capable machine, no question there. HOWEVER ... and this is a big HOWEVER ... they have the same problem as virtually every other mass-production model. The geometry changes with size range ... far too much, in my opinion. The 46cm frame has a 74.5 degree seat tube angle! That's insane for a touring bike that's supposed to be comfortable. In contrast, the 48cm Riv Hunqapillar has a 71.5 degree seat tube angle ... which only changes to 72 degrees in larger frames, maintaining a more consistent geometry for all sizes.  Of course, this really only affects smaller Surly frames ... regular-sized folks don't really have to worry, but for us small dudes, it's quite frustrating ... but yet another reason to appreciate Riv design.  I happen to have one of each ( a 46cm LHT and a 48cm Hunq), and there is an enormous difference in how they feel.  I don't ride the LHT much these days ... anyone need a smaller touring bike?

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-09-23 at 15:27 -0700, VeloZen wrote:
>
> The Surly LHT is certainly a capable machine, no question there.
> HOWEVER ... and this is a big HOWEVER ... they have the same problem
> as virtually every other mass-production model. The geometry changes
> with size range ... far too much, in my opinion. The 46cm frame has a
> 74.5 degree seat tube angle! That's insane for a touring bike that's
> supposed to be comfortable. In contrast, the 48cm Riv Hunqapillar has
> a 71.5 degree seat tube angle ... which only changes to 72 degrees in
> larger frames, maintaining a more consistent geometry for all sizes.
> Of course, this really only affects smaller Surly frames ...
> regular-sized folks don't really have to worry, but for us small
> dudes, it's quite frustrating ... but yet another reason to appreciate
> Riv design.

Just out of idle curiosity (as my frames are 59-60cm) what is the source
of the problem? Would things be better if those small frames used
smaller wheels as well?

[Matt Beebe]

Smaller frames are sometimes designed with super-steep ST angles to mitigate toe-overlap and still allow for short TT/reach.