How Much Difference Would Different Wheels/Tires Make
Solomander
Tim McNamara
On Aug 5, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Solomander wrote:
> I have an AHH that's running 36 spoked Velocity wheels and 35 mm Panaracer Paselas. My original priorities were bombproof and plush riding. The ride is undeniably cushy, but there are times when I wouldn't mind it if the bike was a bit quicker- especially on hills. I have been contemplating running 32 mm Paselas and/or going to a somewhat lighter wheelset. I still wonder how much real world difference these changes would make. What do you think?
Very little IMHO.
As a comparison, in the last couple of years of my racing days I rode one of two bikes for training rides and road races/crits: a Ritchey fillet brazed road bike with 700 x 23s (usually SuperComp HDs or similar) and Campy Chorus Ergo, and a Gunnar Crosshairs with 700 x 32s (Avocet slicks) and a mongrelized "gruppo" of various parts from dubious sources. It didn't make any difference in the training rides or the races in terms of discernible performance. If anything the fatter tires were better for crits as they felt a little more solid in the corners.
Garth
Cycletex
PATRICK MOORE
like the GB Cypres: http://www.compasscycle.com/Tires.html I hope
before too long to save up to buy a pair of the 28s -- possibly even
the 32s -- for the Herse.
IME, which has been with (1) folding 559X32 mm Paselas and (2) 35 and
(3) 32 mm Tourguards, Paselas aren't great for rolling resistance --
tho' I'd love to see Jan and BQ do a rolldown comparison between these
and the GBs; perhaps given the 100% price differential, the Paselas
would not be so bad -- and the Tourguards are doggy indeed. I know
that the Herse felt better moving from the TG 35s even to IRC Tandem
30s.
Frankly, to jerk myself violently back to the subject at hand, I'd not
bother with new wheels until I'd tried a top o' the line tire like the
GB -- which I admit I know only by reputation and hearty
recommendation.
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PATRICK MOORE
559 tires in anything wider than 23 mm (the Pasela 32s are the best
I've seen, but not very good, IMO -- and they flat too easily, to
boot) I'd be interested in considering them for my 559/571-wheeled Riv
Roads. I'd also be interested in comments comparing the Metros with
Paselas.
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Brian Hanson
One man's opinion...
Brian
Seattle
LF
On Friday, August 5, 2011 5:57:02 PM UTC-4, Solomander wrote:
I have an AHH <snip> I wouldn't mind it if the bike was a bit quicker- especially on hills. <snip> What do you think?
It's all about the engine. Usually, jettisoning some weight from the mid-section of the engine will help the most. Given what your current set up is, tire RR and wheel weight are very minor factors.
Best,
Larry
Joe Bartoe
YMMV,
Joe
Joe Bartoe
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Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 20:17:25 -0700
From: fie...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: How Much Difference Would Different Wheels/Tires Make
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
Joe Bartoe
http://thesaltycyclist.blogspot.com/2010/02/initial-impressions-grand-bois-cerf.html
Joe Bartoe
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From: jba...@hotmail.com
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: How Much Difference Would Different Wheels/Tires Make
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 20:26:25 -0700
Kelly Sleeper
Buy aero wheel set
700x23 tires with 120 psi
Add close range rear cassette
You'll get a couple mph maybe 3.
Then you might ad well go carbon cause those wheels and tires will look funny on the ahh.
I bought a bombadil loaded it down.. Ride it a lot and now my ahh with jb's feels like a fast bike .. Just more comfy
Kelly
cyclotourist
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
Aaron Schmidt
and where in the wheel the weight is, can make a difference. Of course
the amount of difference it makes is likely to depend on the total
payload of the bike and rider. (Clearly I'm verging on religious
territory here, but I can perceive a difference when riding my 19ish#
go-fast (Salsa Primero) and my 30+# LHT. I did an 18 mile uphill TT on
these bikes (using a similar gear ratio) to see if reality matched my
perceptions. Indeed I made it up the hill faster on the lighter
bike.)
My cross bike with 35c Marathons feels pokey on the road compared to
when I'm running 28c Gatorskins. On rough gravel roads I feel just the
opposite! I probably lose more water weight on a long ride than the
Marathons weigh more than the Gatorskins, true. However, they sure
feel different when riding.
Only going down to 32s, it doesn't sound like you're going to go
weight weenie so who knows if you'll get up the hills faster. But
maybe the smaller tire with higher PSI will make you feel faster.
Totally counts for something.
Can you borrow a wheel set from someone and see what you think?
Garth
PATRICK MOORE
wheels, but I do mind -- greatly -- sluggish tires, and there are
definite differences.
FWIW, list, I have a pair of almost unused Specialized Hemisphere 38s
for sale Cheap! because the puncture resistant belt, well, you know
.... Make offers!
On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have them in the 622 Patrick. I'm with you about the Pasela tires...if you want low rolling resistant tires....those ain't it! The Metro K's are. They're great at 35mm in that they roll fast AND have some cushion as long as you're at 70-75psi.
>
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EricP
Gatorskin in 32mm width. The mechanic at my LBS just purchased 8 of
them(!) I have not tried them. Yet. Might break down and get a
pair.
Happen to believe that different tires can make one feel faster on the
bike. But right now, none of my bikes have anything narrower than
40s, so I'm not a good source for opinions.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
On Aug 6, 7:57 am, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Garth; will have to keep those in mind. I don't mind heavy
> wheels, but I do mind -- greatly -- sluggish tires, and there are
> definite differences.
>
> FWIW, list, I have a pair of almost unused Specialized Hemisphere 38s
> for sale Cheap! because the puncture resistant belt, well, you know
> .... Make offers!
>
> > I have them in the 622 Patrick. I'm with you about the Pasela tires...if you want low rolling resistant tires....those ain't it! The Metro K's are. They're great at 35mm in that they roll fast AND have some cushion as long as you're at 70-75psi.
>
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> Patrick Moore
> Albuquerque, NM
> For professional resumes, contact
> Patrick Moore, ACRW
cyclotourist
Rant for the day.
Peter Pesce
I have 700x35's (which are actually barely 32's) on my Sam and love them.
I think wheel and tire weight makes a big difference in feel, if not actual speed, because they are moving so fast compared to the rest of the bike and rider. Jan Heine did a test of this and found "optimal", for him at least, tire weights for various wheel sizes. This had more to do with responsivesness and feel, not speed. The optimal 700c range was down around 320-350g per tire, IIRC.
-Spare Tire Pete
Jay
I have the Pasalas on now and a pair of Shwalbes waiting for them to
wear out.
CycloFiend
I have an AHH that's running 36 spoked Velocity wheels and 35 mm Panaracer Paselas. My original priorities were bombproof and plush riding. The ride is undeniably cushy, but there are times when I wouldn't mind it if the bike was a bit quicker- especially on hills. I have been contemplating running 32 mm Paselas and/or going to a somewhat lighter wheelset. I still wonder how much real world difference these changes would make. What do you think?
Joel
When the Jack Brown-Green came out, I was running 32 Paselas on the Quickbeam. I swapped over and the Paselas remained on my tire pile for another year or so, until I made myself wear them out so as not to waste them. I'm sure that a lot of the difference may have been psychosematic, but the JB's had a rounder profile that cornered and descended ridiculously well, and though they had lighter and seemingly more supple casing, they held up better for me.
As has been observed - "Light. Strong. Inexpensive - pick two." A well-made, lighter wheelset is generally noticeable. And, I do find that larger tires at a more moderate pressure do protect the rim over most topography. But, to put a finer point on it, I'm talking about a 32 spoke rear, maybe a 28 front with nothing silly or stupid-light.
You might also experiment or check your fore-aft saddle position. Depending upon your pedaling style, you might find a stronger position for climbing. I had felt myself a little pokey on the climbs and realized my saddle had slipped back a quarter inch or so.
Hope that helps,
- Jim
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Tim McNamara
On Aug 5, 2011, at 6:01 PM, Aaron Schmidt wrote:
> This might be an unpopular opinion but in my experience wheel weight,
> and where in the wheel the weight is, can make a difference. Of course
> the amount of difference it makes is likely to depend on the total
> payload of the bike and rider. (Clearly I'm verging on religious
> territory here, but I can perceive a difference when riding my 19ish#
> go-fast (Salsa Primero) and my 30+# LHT. I did an 18 mile uphill TT on
> these bikes (using a similar gear ratio) to see if reality matched my
> perceptions. Indeed I made it up the hill faster on the lighter
> bike.
I would reasonably expect an 11# (or more) weight difference to be noticeable. Imagine riding with a gallon and a half of water added to your bike- you'd notice it. With the OP's question we're talking a change of a few ounces- imagine the difference between riding with a full versus empty water bottle. Few people claim to notice this difference, but it's much greater than the 30 grams of tire weight some claim to be able to feel.
Also, the frame geometry differences are going to give the bike a different feel in terms of handling which can make a rider feel faster or slower without actually being faster or slower.
> My cross bike with 35c Marathons feels pokey on the road compared to
> when I'm running 28c Gatorskins. On rough gravel roads I feel just the
> opposite! I probably lose more water weight on a long ride than the
> Marathons weigh more than the Gatorskins, true. However, they sure
> feel different when riding.
Those are very different tires in construction as well as size, so they are difficult to compare.
> Only going down to 32s, it doesn't sound like you're going to go
> weight weenie so who knows if you'll get up the hills faster. But
> maybe the smaller tire with higher PSI will make you feel faster.
> Totally counts for something.
>
> Can you borrow a wheel set from someone and see what you think?
A reasonable idea.
Tim McNamara
Garth
Speaking of sluggish .... Performance also sells the 700x35mm Gotham tire ... aka a rebranded Panaracer Crosstown. Oh my .... I never rode such a slug of a tire since my 3 speed days as a teen!
Continentals seems to have a rep for sidewalls cracking .... and from my time with them ... it was true.
Solomander
hobie
PATRICK MOORE
'80s, at GW for a good price and bought it. It was shod with some 45
mm slicks. I rode it through, literally, a garden of goathead thorns
and came back with scores, if not hundreds, of goatheads in the tires
but, thanks to the belted tires plus "thorn proof" tubes, not a minim
of air lost. But I have never, ever in my life ridden tires at once so
wooden and so molasses-like: if those were the only bicycle tires and
tubes available, I kid you not, I would give up cycling. Similar
experience with Mr Tuffys in 559X32 Paselas. Give me flats any day.
OTOH, the 22 mm (actual, on skinny rims) old stock so-called 26X1
Specialized Turbos I just rode 21 miles on are fast and surprisingly
cushy over small amplitude, high frequency bumps -- something I
noticed years ago comparing them to Fatboys (tho' the latter were
always overinflated). And these skinnies flat less than the mentioned
Paselas -- beats me why.
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Michael Hechmer
PATRICK MOORE
noticeable than wheel or tire weight differences. I agree that weight
is relatively minor in its effect except when climbing (then you
certainly do notice it); you also notice it when accelerating but
(IME) less so -- and I move from very light, 1600 gram wheels to
massively heavy ones -- but supple tires are very different from doggy
tires.
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Tim McNamara
> People are way over thinking this question. Tire & rim weight are critical when accelerating or going uphill. If you doubt this I suggest you get a 5 and a 10 pound weight and spend some time simply lifting the weight in an arms length from your body. Rim & tire weight has a big impact on how "lively", eg, responsive a bike feels. Sure, some tires have lower rolling resistance than others and as your rolling along on a long ride that can make a difference. But "liveliness" is all about acceleration and climbing and tire / rim weight trumps rolling resistance.
I have to respectfully disagree. If the difference between one tire/rim combo and another was 5 lbs/2270 g or 10 lbs/4540 g, the difference would be significant. Differences of 4 oz/100 grams are not very significant. Bikes don't accelerate very quickly even when ridden by pro racers, let alone the rest of us, so it's not that big a deal.
When climbing, weight is weight. The steeper the hill the more this is true. Doesn't matter if the weight is on your rims or in your water bottle. Almost no one grouses about the 21 ounces/590 grams the water in a full water bottle weighs slowing them down, yet people claim to be able to feel 10 or 50 or 100 grams on their bike. It always cracks me up on the bike tech and racing newsgroups; it's one of the reasons I no longer read any mainstream bike publications. Even if we apply the notion that the weight on the periphery of the wheels counts as double in terms of energy cost to accelerate as compared to weight on the bike, if we mount a 100 g lighter tire the gain is still less than half of a full water bottle. And oddly enough rim weights are generally higher now, due to "aero" shapes and thicker walls to avoid the expense of having to put in spoke sockets, than they were years ago unless you're spending a lot of money on boutique, fragile wheels.
Rolling resistance, OTOH, can be nearly 100% of what slows you down at very low speeds and 25% or more of the total drag we have to overcome at a cruising speed of 18 mph. It is a constant on the bike, unlike wind resistance or inclines. That's not only a difference on a long ride but at every moment, including when climbing. When climbing, because our speeds are lower, RR becomes a much larger percentage of the drag we have to overcome. It's worth paying attention to, but there too we have to balance various needs (e.g., durability and puncture resistance versus speed).
Call it a difference in riding philosophy.
Michael Hechmer
Steve Palincsar
> Wheel weight, or more specifically rim/tire weight matters more than
> other parts because in addition to moving forward or up a hill, the
> weight also must move upward as the rim rolls. A hundred grams, 4 oz
> off each tire, and another 4 off each rim and you have a total
> difference of one 1 lb of rolling weight. Most riders will find the
> difference quite noticable.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/rotating-weight-debunking-myth-132875.html
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57554&start=15
http://gearmyths.blogspot.com/2011/03/rotating-mass-doesnt-matter.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance
Steven Frederick
Steve Palincsar
> I've been running non-TG Paselas 26X1.75" tires on my XO this year.
> They're pretty plush and fast. Maybe not quite Hetres but nearly as
> big and nearly as nice...cheap, too!
It's a funny thing about those Paselas - some love them (and you can
include me in that group) but some loathe, hate and despise them with a
passion. Performance seems to be highly variable, and I'm not at all
sure for what reason.
EricP
pair on a bike right now is some mysterious flatting where I can't
find what is the cause. Time to get out a cotton ball and see if that
works.
Personally I don't ride supple tires and or light wheels. So am the
wrong person to give opinions about it.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
cyclotourist
26" is the new 650B!!!
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