Society Finally Catching up to Grant

[Peter M]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?pagewanted=all

[gep7...@gmail.com]

I'm not leading any anti-helmet charge...and whatever my stance on them is, it's on the heels of people way smarter than I am. Questioning helmets is not the same as questioning the importance of safety. It is that only if you regard helmets as totally safe and ignore any tendency to take more risks when wearing one. Those are the qualifiers, and as quick as they are to describe, I'd say they're biggies.

Everybody has a first or second hand experience with a helmet that helped (or may have) in an accident. I don't question that if you're doomed to hit your head, you're better off with a helmet on. But this is not an issue that is simply a matter of black/white, smart/dumb, or life/death. Iti is far more complicated than that, and articles such as the Times one here (I'll soon have it up on the BLUG) add something to the discussion.

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 4:33:18 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?pagewanted=all

[Jim Cloud]

I've already read the article, which was written from a European
perspective. If riding in your community is comparable to Copenhagen
or Paris, I'm sure the article will be very germane. You might also
read the comments to the article from NYT readers...

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Sep 30, 6:29 pm, gep71...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not leading any anti-helmet charge...and whatever my stance on them is,
> it's on the heels of people way smarter than I am. Questioning helmets is

> not the same as questioning the importance of safety. It is that *only* if
> you regard helmets as totally safe *and* ignore any tendency to take more

> risks when wearing one. Those are the qualifiers, and as quick as they are
> to describe, I'd say they're biggies.
>
> Everybody has a first or second hand experience with a helmet that helped
> (or may have) in an accident. I don't question that if you're doomed to hit
> your head, you're better off with a helmet on. But this is not an issue
> that is simply a matter of black/white, smart/dumb, or life/death. Iti is
> far more complicated than that, and articles such as the Times one here
> (I'll soon have it up on the BLUG) add something to the discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 4:33:18 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>

> >http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-c...

[lungimsam]

I do not think wearing a helmet makes me take more risks when riding.

Why? Because I am also concerned that I don't break my collar bones, arms, hands, legs, injure internal organs, etc.

So I am going to be very careful anyway.

 

I wonder if there have been any reliable studies about the efficacy of helmets in the USA.

 

Also, I don't believe you can compare the cycling milieu in the USA to a Euro or Chinese milieu.

 

It would be nice to know for sure if helmets are necessary. I dislike wearing them.

[Jim Cloud]

Here's another article the group might find interesting:

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/josh-brodesky-my-brush-with-death-and-my-new-rules/article_53fedad6-1ff6-5083-8610-2f4a77303c81.html

Note that the street mentioned in this article, Mountain Avenue. is a
specific bike thoroughfare with wide bike lanes and it's regularly
traversed by many cyclists on a daily basis (especially while the
University of Arizona is in session).

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Sep 30, 4:33 pm, Peter M <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-c...

[Peter Morgano]

If you read the ny times article it touches on these kind of personal stories. The issue is that without taking away the stigma of helmet use and cyclists as being "the other" we will never get where Europe is. I fell going 35mph and a helmet probably saved me from more harm than I got but going down the side of a mountain is not riding to the grocery store. Cyclists need to reach a critical mass where drivers and laws that favor a car based society can make may for a bike friendly environment. Dropping the "wear a helmet or die" mantra is part of this push as I see it.

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[Jim Cloud]

Tucson is a "Bike Friendly Community" and has received a "Gold" level
status from the League of American Bicyclists (LAB). This, obviously,
didn't prevent the accident that was described in the article from
occurring.

Frankly, I could care less if someone chooses to wear a helmet, but
the justification for not wearing one shouldn't be couched in its
efficacy in an accident situation. I think if anyone would like to
consult their local neurosurgeons for a collective opinion that would
probably be quite informative.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Sep 30, 7:04 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you read the ny times article it touches on these kind of personal
> stories. The issue is that without taking away the stigma of helmet use and
> cyclists as being "the other" we will never get where Europe is. I fell
> going 35mph and a helmet probably saved me from more harm than I got but
> going down the side of a mountain is not riding to the grocery store.
> Cyclists need to reach a critical mass where drivers and laws that favor a
> car based society can make may for a bike friendly environment. Dropping
> the "wear a helmet or die" mantra is part of this push as I see it.

> On Sep 30, 2012 9:56 PM, "Jim Cloud" <Cloud...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Here's another article the group might find interesting:
>

> >http://azstarnet.com/news/local/josh-brodesky-my-brush-with-death-and...

[Bill Gibson]

Besides some wonderful clothing, bikes, camping gear, and ideas, something I've become since discovering Rivendell is a lot more tolerance around what makes a good cyclist. I used to be very critical of those who didn't ... whatever. Now, I am just happy when I see someone riding.

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Peter M <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?pagewanted=all

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[dougP]

A helmet only kicks in when you crash, so the use-or-not-use decision
involves a calculation (inexact at best) as to the liklihood of losing
control of one's destiny . Riding like a racer thru rush hour traffic
in an urban area seems less controllable than puttering down a country
lane. As with many cycling decisions, it's situational.

dougP

On Sep 30, 7:24 pm, Bill Gibson <bill.bgib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Besides some wonderful clothing, bikes, camping gear, and ideas, something
> I've become since discovering Rivendell is a lot more tolerance around what
> makes a good cyclist. I used to be very critical of those who didn't ...
> whatever. Now, I am just happy when I see someone riding.
>

> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Peter M <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-c...

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Since you brought up efficacy, do you have a peer-reviewed article to cite regarding this? No, a cracked helmet is not a demonstration of its efficacy; prove to yourself by cracking one in your hand and noticing that it takes very little force to do it. And no, a bicycle helmet is fundamentally different in design and efficacy than motorcycle helmets.

I'm essentially forced to wear a helmet most of the time even though I don't believe in its claimed efficacy because of social pressures. I believe helmets save scrapes and bruises but the amount of force it can absorb is probably insignificant in a car-bike accident. Furthermore, I'm old enough to not succumb to peer pressure. But I don't want to be disadvantaged in any way if an accident happens (that a helmet may or may not help) and I needed to recoup losses; I don't want to be assigned partial blame and lose restitution simply because "everyone knows helmets save lives".

Despite the obvious, neurosurgeons are not experts in the analysis of force and impact (these would be engineers), and they see a biased sample of accidents that can skew their opinion. You wouldn't go to a neurosurgeon if you just lightly bang your forehead, would you?

Finally, this is not a pro- or anti-helmet post. Wear or don't wear a helmet; that's entirely your choice and none of my business. But if you going to claim this or that to support your stance, you should bring some data along for the ride.

[rob markwardt]

>" Finally, this is not a pro- or anti-helmet post."

Really?

[Jim Cloud]

I really don't care if you chose to wear a helmet, as I've stated.
It's your choice. If you feel that you're "forced to wear a helmet...
because of social pressures", that's your problem. Please consider my
initial statement, I don't care..

I'll continue to wear mine, end of subject.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

On Sep 30, 9:11 pm, "Benz, Sunnyvale, CA" <benzouy...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[PATRICK MOORE]

Really, as far as I can tell.

For me, the issue is: what is the actual, statistically determined risk for death or injury from cycling? If the statistics I've read are true -- the NYT article cites one putting cycling on a par with walking; another I've read claims cycling is less dangerous than walking and about 2X as dangerous as riding in a car per unit distance and equal in danger to riding in a car per unit time (don't recall the locations but major, urban/suburban circumstances) -- then the issue becomes more clear. One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while walking.

One other statistical point: from Forester, I think: among cyclists, injury and death is much greater for children and adolescents; the safest cyclists are older, urban commuters. (Citing from memory.) True, much the same can be said for autos -- young males skew the statistics -- but the point is still valid.

It was from such research a few years ago that I decided not to bother with helmets. Do I think a 8 oz piece of styrofoam certified by a very unrealistic test (in the US; I think the Euro test is more rigorous) might be of some value in an accident? Of course. But put in the statistical context just described, I have concluded that I am not being foolish by foregoing one.

Lies, damned likes and statistics; but still, it is the large picture, quantified with sufficient rigor, that gives the most accurate assessment of one's true risk.

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:21 PM, rob markwardt <robm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>" Finally, this is not a pro- or anti-helmet post."

 Really?

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:

> One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
> walking.

Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.

[jimD]

My helmet kicks in as a mirror holder.

The thing that bugs me is the boilerplate reporting coverage about bike accidents
that insists on informing us that injured/maimed/dead riders were or were not wearing
helmets.

-JimD

[Ron Mc]

What Jim D said.  

If I'm riding up the hill on an errand, and I wouldn't even think about putting on my helmet. 

But if I'm on the road for distance or even on a trail, I would be naked without my mirror.  It comes with a helmet.  

[PATRICK MOORE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119262/

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/08/walking-helmet-is-good-helmet.html

But true, the statistic does not analyze the types of injuries, just the overall danger or risk; still, walking is pretty darn safe, so the risk to head in cycling can't be huge. OTOH, I've been told by an ER technician that head injuries are more common and serious in auto accidents than in bike accidents -- anecdotal, one person's experience. Put all of this together as you will; I've drawn my own practical conclusions.

And I am always open to new -- but statistical! -- evidence. I have a helmet hanging at home for the time that I am finally convinced it is needed.

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[Brewster Fong]

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:29:40 PM UTC-7, gep7...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is that only if you regard helmets as totally safe and ignore any tendency to take more risks when wearing one.

 

I've heard this statement beforea and am unclear as to kind of "risk"  these riders are taking - i.e., ride faster than allowed, run thru stop signs/lights, weave between cars in traffic, making "daredevil" type moves like jumping off cliffs, walls, barriers, or what?

 

Do these riders do take these "risks" because they think that a helmet will make them immune from the laws of physics?

 

I don't know anyone who takes extraordinary "risks" just because they put on a helmet. or are these risk takers just immature? Good Luck!

[jeffrey kane]

My wife makes me wear mine ...

[Rex Kerr]

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:55 AM, jimD <raste...@comcast.net> wrote:

My helmet kicks in as a mirror holder.

The thing that bugs me is the boilerplate reporting coverage about bike accidents
that insists on informing us that injured/maimed/dead riders were or were not wearing
helmets.

 

Mine does a great job hiding my bed-hair until I get to work and take my shower.  :-)  I moved my mirror to my glasses since it wasn't always available when tied to the helmet [and if I had to chose one or the other, I'd take the mirror!] and kept getting knocked off and broken.

[Joe Broach]

> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:29:40 PM UTC-7, gep7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> It is that only if you regard helmets as totally safe and ignore any
>> tendency to take more risks when wearing one.
>

>On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Brewster Fong <bfd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've heard this statement beforea and am unclear as to kind of "risk" these
> riders are taking - i.e., ride faster than allowed, run thru stop
> signs/lights, weave between cars in traffic, making "daredevil" type moves
> like jumping off cliffs, walls, barriers, or what?

Brewster, I guess I rationalize it the other way around. In my sample
of one, I ride more carefully the (10%?) of the time I don't wear my
helmet. Specifically, I ride more slowly on quieter streets, leave
more escape room, and rarely ride in the dark or rain without a
helmet. Out of the city, I pretty much only ditch the helmet for
climbs, and if I do descend, I don't push it. It may be unsupportable,
but it's the internal bargain I've made with myself.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 15:08 -0700, Joe Broach wrote:
>
> Brewster, I guess I rationalize it the other way around. In my sample
> of one, I ride more carefully the (10%?) of the time I don't wear my
> helmet. Specifically, I ride more slowly on quieter streets, leave
> more escape room, and rarely ride in the dark or rain without a
> helmet. Out of the city, I pretty much only ditch the helmet for
> climbs, and if I do descend, I don't push it. It may be unsupportable,
> but it's the internal bargain I've made with myself.

Just for fun, let's examine a few accidents I've had, and see if "being
more careful" would have helped.

- front wheel gets caught in a crack between two lanes of concrete
pavement, front wheel washes out, bike crashes. 10 mph at the time, if
that much.

- JRA and ride into an invisible, paved-over pothole. I couldn't see
the depression after the crash when I was standing right next to it.

- I come over the crest of a roller the day after a big thunderstorm,
and there in defilade just beyond the crest, out of sight, is a large
tree branch. I don't see it until I am almost on top of it, can't stop
before I run over it and crash.

- The wet spot I thought was water running across the bike trail turned
out to be black ice. Soon as I hit it, the bike flips sideways and down
I go.

- The Mt. Vernon Trail detour under the Wilson Bridge routes you up onto
a sidewalk at about a 15 degree angle. I don't see that just before you
get to the newly cast concrete curb-cut there's a section of dirt
immediately adjacent to the curb cut that's washed out, so instead of a
level transition up the curb cut, it's a 1" ledge, and I hit it at a
very shallow angle. Front wheel washes out and down I go.

- I'm riding down the bike trail and there are two joggers ahead of me.
I yell and ring my bell; they acknowledge and one jogger moves to the
right and one moves into the left lane. I tell them I'm coming up the
middle. As I am a couple of feet from them, the guy on the left crosses
over to the right and steps right in front of my bike. I run him down.

- I'm riding down the bike trail and my front tire blows. (Turns out
there was a sharp metal edge inside the rim that cut the sidewall.) I'm
not sure which wheel blew out, so I coast to lose speed rather than
hitting any brake. The bike suddenly loses all directional stability
and rolls right over, augering into the ground.

Now, what was that you were saying about being more careful?

[soapscum]

I'm sure I'm a statistical anomaly, and at the risk of exposing myself as either profoundly unlucky or a terrible rider, I've had helmets save my noggin' from serious injury twice. The first when a car hit me and I landed on my head resulting in a dandy concussion and a sprain in 3 cervical vertebra. Unquestionably, I'd have been much worse off without the helmet. The second time, a patch of black ice disappeared my bike out from underneath me and I went down hard enough to break the helmet on the pavement, ringing my bell hard enough that I didn't realize I'd broken my wrist for about 4 hours. Apart from riding in an urban environment to begin with, I wasn't taking any unusual risks; things happen. I can still walk, talk, ride my bike, feed myself... so, I'll keep wearing a helmet. Seems to work for me. And while it's clearly the fallacy of the vivid example, it's the reason I require my daughter to wear hers, helmet law or no. Do I think helmet use should be mandated by statute? I don't, but it's not one of the injustices I devote any time to. I do think it's unfortunate that the pro-helmet/anti-helmet debate has devolved (in some quarters) to the level of holy war.

[Michael Richters]

There are some invalid assumptions that are almost always made in discussions of this subject that are worth pointing out.  Regarding risk compensation, for example, it's not just the cyclist who may change behavior when wearing a helmet; others who see him may also behave differently (I'm thinking of the overtaking study done by Ian Walker).  The same could easily be true for automobiles (do other drivers take more care around Smart cars than large SUVs?).  Also, more particular to helmets, it is usually assumed that the helmet has no effect on either the probability of an impact to the cyclist's head or the nature of that impact, but this is a false assumption, as a helmet increases the effective size and mass of the wearer's head.  A near miss without a helmet could turn into a severe neck injury, for example.

Another type of assumption that comes up consistently is one of causality.  In many cases, the data show an association between helmet use and a decreased incidence of head injuries, and it is usually assumed that the helmet use was the cause of that decrease, but this is a fallacious assumption (though it may be correct).  In at least one such data set I recall looking at, helmet use was also associated with a reduction in arm injuries, where a causal relationship seems ridiculous.  There are other differences between groups of people who wear helmets and those who do not, on average, and it is these confounding factors that make it impossible to determine causal relationships.  The real problem here is that it is impossible to perform a true controlled trial where people are randomly assigned to either use helmets or not.

I recall seeing a graph a while back showing the NHTSA statistics for injuries and/or fatalities of pedestrians and cyclists over a long time (something like 40 years, beginning in the early 1970s, I think).  I believe it showed identical trend lines for both groups, despite the fact that helmet use had grown substantially for cyclists over that time, but not (obviously) for pedestrians.  Again, not proof of causality, but it certainly doesn't support the claims that helmets reduce head injuries by 85% when it's not detectable in whole-population injury statistics.  I would provide a link, but I can't find it just at the moment, I'm afraid.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Yes – the question of whether society should or should not require helmet use involves some importantly different policy considerations than any given individual’s decision whether to use one.  For myself (as one who probably avoided more serious injury in a bad (self-induced) crash because of a helmet I was wearing only because my wife insisted), I wear one most of the time.  But I don’t mind wearing them at all.  For those who do (for whatever reason) mind, it’s their decision, and not mine. 

 

And, in particular, +1 on the last sentence of the preceding message:  “I do think it's unfortunate that the pro-helmet/anti-helmet debate has devolved (in some quarters) to the level of holy war.”

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[Matt Beebe]

I agree with the article, but sometimes I feel it would be great to be continually breaking the law whenever I rode my bicycle-  as it is, I only get to break the law here and there while riding.

[Peter Morgano]

For the record I always wear a helmet. I also go back to check to see if I locked the front door, pick the seat near the conductor on the subway, wait on the sidewalk for the light to change, etc. As a freedom loving liberal though I dont feel at all that my neurosis should be applied to society at large. I am not sure at all they make you safer, I am just that neurotic.  I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can be observed and "identified"  its just another way to make us feel like we dont belong or are doing something wrong and should just be ready for when someone tries to run us down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?pagewanted=all

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[Eric Norris]

Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.

–Eric N
Sent from my iPhone 5

[Peter Morgano]

It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law, so that people could more easily "identify" cyclists.

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[David Yu Greenblatt]

I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those activities. But it seems to me that spirited bicycle riding in the conventional position which involves bending at the waist and leaning forward with the head leading the center of gravity does make non-trivial head impact more likely in a crash. 

Like Steve and others, I have had a good number of head-ringing and helmet-destroying crashes over the years. Some of these crashes involved risky activities like Cat 3 bike racing but others happened while "just riding along" solo. Due to these experiences, and because I enjoy riding my bikes fast, I almost always wear a helmet. But I do agree that riding a bike in a mellow way -- e.g., pedaling to the local coffee shop -- is a pretty safe activity that does not mandate wearing a helmet.  

Another thought -- perhaps riding a Dutch-style city bike bolt upright lessens the risk of going over the handlebars and landing on one's head? If so, that is another reason why I should get a Bullmoose Bosco bar to further differentiate my city bike from my rando and racing-style go-fast bikes. I kind of like the idea of a designated bike for mellow helmetless riding. 

- David G in SF

[Peter Morgano]

The only time I got hit by a car was walking across the street, legally. Girl made a left and rolled me over the hood hard onto the ground.  I didnt get up and blame myself for not wearing a helmet and/or other safety gear or for having the audacity to walk across the street, which clearly is just for cars...

[Matt Beebe]

According to the Pituitary Society, the causes of traumatic brain injury are:

39% Firearms
34% Vehicle Accidents
10% Falls
17% Other

According to the national Brain Injury Association, the leading causes of brain injury, in order of prevalence are:

50% Motor vehicle crashes
21% Falls
12% Firearms
10% Sports/Recreation
07% Other

According to the CDC, the breakdown is:

35.2% Falls
17% Motor Vehicle
16% Colliding with moving or stationary object
10% Assault
21% Other

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Yes, those stats seem on the mark to me. It would be interesting to unpack the "Falls" category, however. My guess is that very very few would involve healthy alert people falling down while walking or running or engaging in common daily activities. In my limited and anecdotal experience as a surgeon who has taken care of hundreds if not thousands of traumatically injured patients, falls that result in serious brain injury usually occur in individuals with other risk factors such as alcohol or drug intoxication, weakness and other functional limitations associated with old age, medical conditions that cause sudden loss of consciousness such as epilepsy and atrial fibrillation, engaging in relatively risky activities (e.g., hunting in a tree stand), etc. 

- David G in SF

[Ron Mc]

I honestly wouldn't have considered wearing a helmet before I had kids.  Now I have to do it at least for example.  I let my daughter ride up and down the hill without her helmet, but I still cringe when I see her coming down the hill at a clip.  I've also seen her at 35 mph on hills, but that would never be without a helmet (not sure it would help at that speed).  But agreeing with my last post, a helmet is a great platform for a mirror.  My nephew rode into the back of a car in Denver traffic when he was checking behind him (without a mirror).  He was wearing a helmet, and nosed it into the guy's rear window, and did enough damage to the car that his auto insurance had to repair it.  

[Tim McNamara]

On Oct 2, 2012, at 12:03 PM, David Yu Greenblatt <david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On Mon, 2012-10-01 at 07:53 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:

> One doesn't spend much time worrying about head protection while
> walking.

Falls while walking seldom involve a head injury.

 

I think Steve makes a good point here. It would be silly to wear a helmet while walking or running because something very odd would have to happen for a healthy alert person to sustain a head injury while engaging in those activities.

Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries from motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds, suicide attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were fewer brain injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike paths and trails.   

Bicycling is safe.  The general perception of bicycling now is that it is a brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember when that public perception changed:  when plastic bike helmets hit the market ca. 1975.  Bicycling! Magazine led the charge.  It's a great example of a meme.

[Rex Kerr]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

Perhaps it would seem that way but the facts are otherwise.  The Minnesota Department of Health report a few years ago found that pedestrian brain injuries far exceeded bike related brain injuries.  So did brain injuries from motor vehicle accidents, falls at home, assaults, gunshot wounds, suicide attempts, strokes and heart attacks, etc.  Interestingly there were fewer brain injuries for cyclists riding on the streets than riding on bike paths and trails.   

Do you have a link to a source for this?  I'd love to read it.

[Seth Vidal]

A little googling:

from here:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/injury/midas/ub92/

selecting:
State of Minnesota
Traumatic Brain Injury

mechanisms:
Fall
Motorvehicle vs pedestrian
Motorvehicle vs cyclist
pedal cyclist - other
pedestrian - other

You get the following results:

Fall - 6278
Motorvehicle vs pedestrian - 117
Motorvehicle vs cyclist - 78
pedal cyclist - other - 446
pedestrian - other - 19

Total Traumatic Brain Injuries for the 2011 year above is 13702

so falls make up the lion's share.

I also pulled all the Motorvehicle ones

and I see
Motorvehicle occupant: 1354

-sv

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 13:46 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:

> Bicycling is safe. The general perception of bicycling now is that it
> is a brain injury waiting to happen. I am old enough to well remember
> when that public perception changed: when plastic bike helmets hit
> the market ca. 1975. Bicycling! Magazine led the charge. It's a
> great example of a meme.

I remember those days well. I remember in 1972 when my wife fainted on
a bike ride, went down and hit her head. I remember driving on Rt 17 in
the Catskills at 120 mph taking her to the hospital, with my daughter in
the back seat, and her asking every few minutes "Are we married? Do we
have a child?" and "Who is that kid in the car?"

And I remember Dick Burns, an engineer from Rochester NY, visiting us in
Monticello, telling us about the ride he was on when his friend and
mentor crashed when he hit a dog, and how he died in his arms from a
brain injury, and how Dick then designed a bike helmet and tried to
persuade the helmet companies to make it commercially.

I remember how my wife and I bought hockey helmets after that, and how
at CoNYMA, the very first bike rally I ever attended, 1973, I was riding
with Irv Weisman, technical editor of the League of American Wheelmen
Bulletin, who also was wearing a hockey helmet. We got quite a bit of
ribbing at the start of the ride, but about halfway through the ride we
came upon a crash. A guy went down on gravel, landed on his head and
peeled his scalp right off his skull. Oceans of blood everywhere,
simply shocking. And I remember how after that we got all kinds of
questions about where'd we get those helmets, and what were they.

Eventually, in early 1975, Dick Burns convinced MSR to make a
modification of their climbing helmet and turn it into a bike helmet.
I recall Dick demonstrating that helmet at a workshop at GEAR 1975 that
I, as workshop chairman, had set up. He brought a bowling pin with him,
put on the helmet, and whacked himself on the head with it. Then he
offered anyone in the workshop the chance to use the bowling pin to
whack themselves over the head with a leather hairnet.

I remember the skepticism in the Mid-Hudson Bike Club, that I belonged
to at the time, until the strongest, most agile rider in the entire
club, Jack Barnard, who had bought one, crashed on a night commute home
from work. He ran over a downed tree branch that he had mistaken for a
shadow, and the bike pivoted around the front wheel high-wheeler style,
and he came down right on his head. I remember the drawing we made of
the helmet for the club newletter (in those days, hand typed and hand
drawn with a stylus on a mimeograph stencil) of the shattered helmet,
and I remember Jack's comment that he had a headache, but the ER docs
told him were it not for that helmet he would have been a dead man. And
I remember how by the end of the month every member of the Mid-Hudson
Bicycle Club had bought a helmet.

Yeah, it's all a conspiracy on the part of the helmet makers and
Bicycling magazine, and head injuries just don't happen. And if you're
extra careful, bike crashes don't happen either.

Bull$hit.

[Peter Morgano]

Hey, I grew up in Monticello, NY. My mom taught at the high school, we moved out when I was around 8-9. Lived in beautiful Jeffersonville, next to the cemetary. Good fishing country. My dad used to go hunting up there with my grandfather until he passed away. I imagine that would be good riding up there on the country roads but you are right, in that setting I would wear a helmet, for one since the speed limit is 55mph and you have some big old hills to descend.  

[Matt Beebe]

Exactly Tim.    Those findings in Minnesota jive with the stats I posted above.    Biggest players in traumatic brain injuries, or TBIs as they're called, seem to be motor vehicles and firearms.    Seems there is no shortage of stuff we can make laws about if we want to reduce the incidence of head trauma.   Guess I'll have to wait to become a habitual offender.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:57 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Hey, I grew up in Monticello, NY. My mom taught at the high school, we
> moved out when I was around 8-9. Lived in beautiful Jeffersonville,
> next to the cemetary. Good fishing country. My dad used to go hunting
> up there with my grandfather until he passed away. I imagine that
> would be good riding up there on the country roads but you are right,
> in that setting I would wear a helmet, for one since the speed limit
> is 55mph and you have some big old hills to descend.

We started the Catskill Wheelmen in the spring of 1972. We were all
beginners, none had ever ridden with a bike club before. Every ride
seemed to have around 4,000 feet of climbing: turn at the corner, climb
1,000 feet, descend 1,000 feet, come to a 4-way stop sign, stop, climb
1,000 feet. All mountains, as I recall it, and not made any easier by
the baby seat on the back of my bike, where I carried my daughter.

Our longest ride ever that first year was 25 miles, all downhill: we
drove our cars down to Middletown, parked at a restaurant, rode back to
the ride start in a big old International Harvester SUV-ancestor, then
rode downhill 25 miles, put the bikes in the car, had a celebratory
lunch and called it a season.

The next year they put on a century.

[Peter Morgano]

When I moved out of monticello we lived near High Point NJ for about 15 years, where the riding was about as you describe it. Pretty punishing back then on a 10 speed but I was young and didnt mind it, especially since my dad could keep up with me mile for mile and I had something to prove. I dont know which is worse, rolling hills or climbing up the side of a mountain, at least witht he latter you get an awesome descent. My beautiful wife is from Middletown, but unfortunately hates riding, cant win them all!  

[Esteban]

Here's my take, happily referencing Grant's writing:

http://veloflaneur.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/a-million-little-nannies

Esteban

San Diego, Calif.

[dougP]

So, if you're riding a bicycle sans helmet there may be some confusion
as to your identity?

dougP

On Oct 2, 10:02 am, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It was one of the reasons given here in NYC for mandating a helmet law, so
> that people could more easily "identify" cyclists.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Eric Norris <campyonly...@me.com> wrote:
> > Huh? Been riding seriously for more than 30 years, and this is a first.
>
> > –Eric N
> > Sent from my iPhone 5
>

> > On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I just hate when people say cyclists need to wear helmets so they can be
> > observed and "identified"
>
> > --
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> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[cyclotourist]

Awesome discussion guys. Can we now move on to the merits of carbon fibre forks?

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“Osama Bin Laden is dead. GM is alive.” ― Joe Biden

[Dave]

...or maybe the rake and trail of carbon forks?!  Pleeeze?

[William]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Esteban and predict that's not the first time you used "nattering nabobs" in your writing.  :)

[jimD]

Naw, let's talk about chain lube.

JimD

[jimD]

All this stuff is making my head hurt!

;>)

-JimD