How much should a bike cost?

[JL]

What is a fair price for a bike? Not how much is a person willing to
pay. Not how much can a bike be sold for. How much SHOULD a bike (or
different types of bikes) cost? There is a wide spectrum of what
cyclists are willing to pay for their machines. IMHO most pricing
debates revolve around how much money a person wants to pay for a
certain cycle; often (but not always) that amount is less than the
price advertised. Pretty often I hear “I would love a Brand X if only
it were $29.99”. Obviously I am exaggerating, but maybe that spending
based thinking is going about it from the wrong angle. Bicycle
pricing, like many economic sets, is created with the conflation of
marketing, consumer demand, and cost. I think there is a way to
dilettante a fair price that is neither inflated nor understated.

So I ask again – assuming a retail setting for a non-custom frame and
fork – how much should a bike cost? Just a frame and fork keeps it
simpler with the entire plethora of factors already present. Perhaps
shifting the focus from an individual’s point of view would yield
interesting information.

can opener in hand
JL

[cyclotourist]

In my mind $600-$700 for a lugged Taiwanese bike is the price to beat.  A Bleriot or Rawland type frame.  That may be unrealistic any more, but it's what I want to pay for a frame.  The Soma bike is pretty close @ $900.

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[Michael Hechmer]

I think it depends on whether it's important to you to live in a world where workers are paid a living wage, work in a safe environment, have access to health care and can look forward to a secure life after their working years are over.   Sometimes the "bargains" we get are with the devil.

michael

[Pondero]

Not to be contrary, but I think it SHOULD cost what someone is willing
to pay. In other words, both parties should be satisfied with the
exchange. That's the beauty of the whole mutually beneficial economy
thing.

[newenglandbike]

Well said Michael.


-Matt

[Zack]

It should cost a price which allows the businesses that create the parts to sustain themselves.

I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

I think they all ought to be free for me and much more expensive for
anyone else, at least until after I have made my choice.

How the hell can you answer this question except in very general
terms, to wit that it ought to reflect, seriatim, the cost of the
materials, the labor of the skilled artisan, the prevailing economic
realities and the hierarchy of human needs.

And I find it useful to contemplate such questions with a glass of
plonk in hand. (Sometimes in both hands.)

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Patrick Moore
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A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.
(Rilke, Buddha in Glory)

[Bill Carter]

It does seem impossible to disassociate what any product "should cost"
- whether bicycles, widgets or cans of tomato soup - from what the
consumer is able and willing to pay. Without the demand side of the
equation, there would be no supply, at least not for long, and the
given product would disappear from the market place. It also makes
sense that the product MUST cost more than the cost to design,
manufacture, distribute and market it. Without some profit incentive
the product again would cease to exist. So somewhere between
willingness to pay and cost-of-goods (plus some reasonable profit
margin) is where I end up. All this being said, when discussing
bicycles specifically, the junk being sold by mass marketers is indeed
too cheap to provide that living wage to the workers who make the
things or to provide a safe, reliable, fun-to-ride product for the end
user. Yet they continue to sell these year after year. On the other
hand, some of the carbon fiber whiz bang stuff sold at the typical LBS
is way over priced in my opinion, but the retail shops themselves
certainly do not make huge mark-ups and many of them struggle to stay
in business. I agree with Zack that Rivs are likely priced too low,
and so are the frames of most of the master craftsmen builders
around. We are lucky to have folks like these who love the cycling
sport and culture enough to do what they do for reasons other than
pure economics.

[Tim McNamara]

There is no way to determine "how much a bike should cost."

[Zack]

Often there are costs that are "externalized" - i.e. not included in the sale price.

This is the case with the cheapie bikes that are mass produced for department stores by people working in miserable conditions, for ridiculously low wages, in factories that pollute the world.  All of that has a cost, but it doesn't get factored into the sale price, and people buy the stuff because it's cheap.

These same market forces are in play everywhere else in our economy (buying a pair of 60 dollar MUSA shorts or a pair of 5 dollar Old Navy shorts, for instance).

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

"Plonk." Don't think I've seen that word since I finished the last Rumpole book. It's a good one.

-----Original Message-----
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:56 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] How much should a bike cost?

I think they all ought to be free for me and much more expensive for anyone else, at least until after I have made my choice.

How the hell can you answer this question except in very general terms, to wit that it ought to reflect, seriatim, the cost of the materials, the labor of the skilled artisan, the prevailing economic realities and the hierarchy of human needs.

And I find it useful to contemplate such questions with a glass of plonk in hand. (Sometimes in both hands.)

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:35 PM, JL <subf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is a fair price for a bike?  Not how much is a person willing to
> pay.  Not how much can a bike be sold for.  How much SHOULD a bike (or
> different types of bikes) cost?  There is a wide spectrum of what
> cyclists are willing to pay for their machines.  IMHO most pricing
> debates revolve around how much money a person wants to pay for a
> certain cycle; often (but not always) that amount is less than the
> price advertised.  Pretty often I hear "I would love a Brand X if only
> it were $29.99".  Obviously I am exaggerating, but maybe that spending
> based thinking is going about it from the wrong angle.  Bicycle
> pricing, like many economic sets, is created with the conflation of
> marketing, consumer demand, and cost.  I think there is a way to
> dilettante a fair price that is neither inflated nor understated.
>

> So I ask again - assuming a retail setting for a non-custom frame and
> fork  - how much should a bike cost?  Just a frame and fork keeps it

> simpler with the entire plethora of factors already present.  Perhaps
> shifting the focus from an individual's point of view would yield
> interesting information.
>
> can opener in hand
> JL
>
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>

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
patric...@resumespecialties.com

A billion stars go spinning through the night Blazing high above your head; But in you is the Presence that will be When all the stars are dead.
(Rilke, Buddha in Glory)

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[dan gee]

> I think that Rivendells are probably priced too low.

Considering that you can get a full custom US-made bike made for a few
hundred less than any of the non-Taiwainese stock bikes, I'm going to
respectfully disagree here. Obviously people are willing to pay that
much, but those prices put Rivs out of the reach of many of us, and
there are many comparable Taiwanese options (Surly, Soma, Handsome)
that cost as little as half of what the Rivs do. Granted, with
powdercoats and without lugs, but still.

I really with there was a modern equivalent of the Heron - something
that embodies the principles of Riv's design, but without all the
frills and decoration that would raise the price, and without all the
design oddities that limit the market. Make a mass-market all-rounder
in Taiwan, use the economies of scale to get a good price on the
manufacture, and put something in the public's hands that would be an
alternative to the carbon racing bikes that most people find
themselves steered to in bike shops.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Also called "vin *tres* ordinaire.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Or (in my case) "swill." Has the same salutary effect on my thought processes, though, no matter what you call it.

-----Original Message-----
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 11:47 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] How much should a bike cost?

--

[CycloFiend]

At the risk of veering this general, OT thread further off into the rough, a
couple quick thoughts:

Working backwards (and hopefully back towards the RBW topic of this list),
US bike shops historically have been staffed by racing-oriented staff.
People were steered to light, steel crit bikes before they were steered to
light, carbon race bikes. It takes a decision by the owner(s) to focus on a
different portion of the market, which was largely unpopular and
unprofitable until recently. The Specialized Globe of ~1993 looks one
heckuva lot like the various "urban" bikes being marketed now, but pretty
much failed in the market when it was brought out. It wasn't a mountain
bike, which at the time, made it invisible to the sales staffs.

As far as the mythical all-rounder project, it's a bit tricky to hold up a
model which may or may not have been profitable as benchmark. There have
been companies and endeavours which have come and gone over the years, doing
just that. Heron and Kogswell both come to mind. Rivendell has continued to
exist and thrive.

Both Surly and Soma are part of larger companies (QBP and Merry Sales) which
give them a bit more flexibility of cash flow and resources than a small
operation. If 50-100 bike frames they ordered don't sell, they can probably
weather the lull, then close them out through a distributed dealer network,
and not end up having to close up shop because of that.

Perhaps there can be no modern equivilent of the Heron because it is a
flawed concept (wait a second - I do really like the bikes - I'm trying to
make a larger point here...). From a buyer's perspective, why pay for lugs
and paint when a TIG'ed Surly can be had a bit cheaper? Or, conversely, if
I'm spending "X" dollars, why not get something with a bit more going on?

What I'm getting at is (IMO) the "middle" can be a dangerous place. The
middle is about maximum volume, which means a ton of dealers, low profit
margins and making up the difference in quantity.

I think Rivendell has always focused on figuring out their core elements,
honing in on that essence, then doing it better than anyone. In 1995, simply
making a well designed, lugged steel road frame was an anomolie. As larger
companies and smaller builders found subsequent success in that vein, it
seems to me that Grant realized their core element was then and would
continue to be a bit of a moving target. The designs have continued to be
refined and articulated. They all ride exceedingly well, and remain
versatile and unique designs. A "stock" Rivendell is not really the same as
a mass-market bicycle from one of the big manufacturers.

While we may not want to personally own every single model, there's more
than likely one which provides something that nothing else does.

If not, there certainly are other options. And we are all the richer for
the diversity and resources which now exist.

- Jim

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[Bill Carter]

On Jul 26, 12:39 pm, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> on 7/26/11 6:41 AM, dan gee at dmg...@gmail.com wrote:

> IPerhaps there can be no modern equivilent of the Heron because it is a

flawed concept (wait a second - I do really like the bikes - I'm
trying to
make a larger point here...). From a buyer's perspective, why pay for
lugs
and paint when a TIG'ed Surly can be had a bit cheaper?

What am I missing here? Doesn't the original concept of the Heron
still live on in bikes like the Bleriot, the Sam and the new SOMA San
Marcos? They all sell (or sold) at close to the same price point as
the Heron frames did and they provide a no-frills high quality lugged
frame that the buyer can build up in any number of ways. While the
jury may be out on the new SOMA, the Bleriot and Sam have been quite
successful. The Herons came in a road version and a tourer and some
have been successfully converted to 650B. What may have doomed the
Heron was that Rivendell quit selling them as they brought other
products online that they chose to focus on.

[Tim McNamara]

There have been some of those- the joint venture with Soma and the joint venture with QBP (albeit that was 650B which might have limited the market). But the problem is labor cost. Having built one frame under the guidance of a friend who has a frame building business, the labor involved is considerable. If you build it in the US, I'd bet there's $500 in labor costs in the frame alone; in Japan, more. Build them in China where labor costs are 1/10 of industrialized Western nations and you can cut that a lot but then you have all the other issues involved...

[CycloFiend]

on 7/26/11 10:20 AM, Bill Carter at bcart...@charter.net wrote:

> What am I missing here? Doesn't the original concept of the Heron
> still live on in bikes like the Bleriot, the Sam and the new SOMA San
> Marcos? They all sell (or sold) at close to the same price point as
> the Heron frames did and they provide a no-frills high quality lugged
> frame that the buyer can build up in any number of ways. While the
> jury may be out on the new SOMA, the Bleriot and Sam have been quite
> successful. The Herons came in a road version and a tourer and some
> have been successfully converted to 650B. What may have doomed the
> Heron was that Rivendell quit selling them as they brought other
> products online that they chose to focus on.

I was assuming that part of the OP's point was a model in which there
weren't 2TT's or 650B/584 wheelsets involved.

At the time it was released, there was a small but vocal segment who felt
the Bleriot should not have been a 650B/584 specific model, just as now
there are those who feel a 2TT is a deal breaker.

I'm firmly in the camp that the Sam Hillborne and San Marcos provide a way
to get Rivendell-designed handling and versatility at a moderate price
point.

- J

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[Peter Pesce]

It should cost as much as the market will bear.
Bike building is a for-profit enterprise, not a charity, and there is no morally-correct value to a bike.
That being said, I do agree that there is a place for value judgments in HOW a company makes the bike and sells it, that involves labor practices, environmental effects, and ethical business practices in the marketing and sale of the bike.
And, in fact, those are just product differentiators, and many buyers will choose exploitative over ethical if a seller needs to charge more for the "ethical" and can't convey that added value to the buyer.

[David Faller]

Agreed. What the market will bear.

When you come right down to it, the topic applies to anything that is
for sale and is ridiculous to call it a RBW list topic just because it
speculates on the value of bikes. How is the original post not "off
topic" when it really has nothing specifically to do with Riv stuff?

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[Ken Freeman]

Synonymous with "scrumfy?"

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[Garth]

How much "should" a bike cost?

LoL!!   That's a good one.

A bike costs what it costs .... there is no shortage of bikes to choose from. There is no shortage of money from which to buy them. .  . . the only true limits are those that we place on ourselves.

[SteveF]

I wouldn't call the Heron Road an "all 'rounder," (or do you mean the touring model?)  It maximized tire clearance with the short reach sidepulls of the time, but that only amounts to maybe a 30mm tire, no fenders--it's definitely a road bike.  I think it's the closest thing to the Bridgestone RB-1/2's that Riv's ever offered.  (and the touring closest to the RB-T

I'd say the Riv/Soma joint venture meets your "mass market all-rounder," description pretty well...