Will a "9-speed" Shimano 105 Derailer work with an 8 speed cassette (friction shifting)?

[Zack]

I am currently trying to eliminate a truly annoying chain slip on my new-to-me 62 Hunq, and it occurred to me that I am using a new-to-me derailer, and that could be causing the problem.

Should it cause me a problem?

I have the sugino triple crank, and the standard riv 8 speed cassette 11-32.

The derailer is a Shimano 105.  I checked the range of the derailer when I set it up, it flexes out to the biggest ring on the cassette and is lined up to the smallest.  Derailer hanger is not bent, also checked.  Greased underneath the bottom bracket where the cables go through the cable guide.  Silver shifters are beeswaxed and tightened.  No apparent sticky link (i checked by paying close attention to the chain running through the RD, nothing was jumpy/weird).

Slipping occurs under load, probably either in the middle or small chainring, happens when I stand up and try and crank (i am about 230 lbs).  

Help appreciated.

[Jim M.]

My first crack at something like that would be to turn the barrel adjuster a couple of turns counterclockwise. If that doesn't help, I'll try to think of something else.

jim m
wc ca

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I think the best course of action is to send the bike to me for an immediate going-over and test ride. 

My immediate thought is bad chain... either stretched or sticky link. But you say you checked. Is the rest of the drivetrain new? 

--Andy

On Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:45:44 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

[Zack]

I'll back off the barrel adjuster and see if that works.

Andy, not quite ready for drastic measures like that yet :-)  

Chain is new, crankset is new, rear derailer is new, cassette is less than a year old.  

I will do further chain sleuthing today.

So, since nobody has spoken up, i am guessing my RD should be fine with friction shifting an 8 spd cassette?

[justin...@gmail.com]

Beeswax and tighten your shifter.

[Jeremy Till]

When you say slipping, is the chain slipping but remaining in the same gear (i.e., is it "jumping" over teeth) or is it dropping into the next highest gear? If it's the former then the culprit is probably the cassette--even if it's less than a year old, depending on how much it was ridden it could be worn such that it wouldn't work with a new chain, since chains and cassettes tend to wear together.  If it's the latter, then something in the derailleur system is probably the culprit.

On Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:45:44 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

As long as the chain threads through the derailer with a couple hairs of clearance on each side it should be fine. 

If everything else is new but the cassette, I'll be that's the culprit.  

--Andy

On Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:45:44 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

[gep7...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:45:44 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 09:17 -0700, gep7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, July 7, 2012 7:45:44 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:
> I am currently trying to eliminate a truly annoying chain slip
> on my new-to-me 62 Hunq, and it occurred to me that I am using
> a new-to-me derailer, and that could be causing the problem.
>
>
> Should it cause me a problem?
>
>
> I have the sugino triple crank, and the standard riv 8 speed
> cassette 11-32.
>
>
> The derailer is a Shimano 105.

A 105 should NOT be able to successfully manage a 32T large sprocket.

[Zack]

Thank you for responses everyone - 

Steve - 

Just to confirm, I think that this is the RD:  http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-2010-Road-Cycling-Derailleur/dp/B000XPV4ZM

(some of the 105's are short cage, just want to make sure the RD is the problem before I switch it up)

[Steve Palincsar]

According to Shimano
http://www.shimano.com.au/publish/content/global_cycle/en/au/index/products/road/105_5700/product.-code-RD-5600-GS.-type-rd_road.html
Model Number RD-5600-GS
Series 105
Cassette Compatibility 10-speed
Maximum Sprocket 27T
Minimum Sprocket 11T
Maximum Front Difference 22T
Total Capacity 37T

Now that, of course, is not a guarantee that your exceeding the maximum
sprocket size for this derailleur is in fact the cause of your problem.
But if you happen to have a MTB rear derailleur sitting in the box for
"just in case" (as, I suspect, many of us on this list do) why not try
it and see!

[Joe Bernard]

A 105 can usually handle a 30-tooth cog, but 32 is pushing your luck. Like others have said, you need to put a proper MTB derailer on to eliminate the 105 as the culprit, then see if there's still a shifting problem. And yes, 9-speed derailers are fine friction-shifting 8-speed cassetes.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Zack]

I have no extra derailers laying around, so will need to get a new one.  

[math...@gmail.com]

I've pushed my short cage DuraAce to 32 teeth without issues. It surprised me but it worked.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Zack <zac...@gmail.com>

Sender: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT)

To: <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [RBW] Re: Will a "9-speed" Shimano 105 Derailer work with an 8 speed cassette (friction shifting)?

I have no extra derailers laying around, so will need to get a new one.  

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 13:00 -0700, Zack wrote:
> I have no extra derailers laying around, so will need to get a new
> one.

Anybody here in your neighborhood? Where do you live, anyway?

[Joe Bernard]

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d41.htm

 

Not too pricey for a very nice looking mech which is rated to 36 teeth.

[Zack]

Neighborhood: Burlington VT.

I see the microshift - may just get it, and I'll probably replace the cassette as well.  Seems weird that the cassette would wear so much in a short time as to make it cause problems, but that doesn't mean it didn't I guess.

[dougP]

A riding buddy has a short cage Ultegra RD, shifting with STI. Front
is Ultegra road triple, 30-39-53. For a couple of years now, he's
been using an 11-32 9 speed from Harris. The old 27 big cog was
insufficient. He obviously cannot use every cog on every ring, but is
quite please with the shifting performance. This is on a +20 year old
lugged steel racing bike.

When he initially mentioned he was going to the new cassette, I
assurred him he would need a different RD. You never know what works
until you try it. Suprised me.

dougP

On Jul 8, 1:18 pm, mather...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've pushed my short cage DuraAce to 32 teeth without issues. It surprised me but it worked.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zack <zack...@gmail.com>
>
> Sender: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 13:00:02

> To: <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Reply-To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [RBW] Re: Will a "9-speed" Shimano 105 Derailer work with an 8 speed
>  cassette (friction shifting)?
>
> I have no extra derailers laying around, so will need to get a new one.
>
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> - Show quoted text -

[Joe Bernard]

It never hurts to have a spare cassette. What I'd do is install the derailer first and see how it goes. Even if you don't need the cassette right away, you will eventually.

[rob markwardt]

Late to the party. My new bike has a 105 long-cage on back, Silver
friction shifters, and an 11-30 8 speed cassette (46-30 rings up
front). Shifting is perfecto in all gears.

[Steve Palincsar]

I wonder if the problem was initially mid-described. Perhaps it's not
"slipping" at all, perhaps it's what many of us have long called "ghost
shifting."

Zack is friction-shifting Hyperglide 9. Hyperglide is designed to let
the chain sit on 2 adjacent sprockets at the same time without
clattering. Indexing can be tuned to make the shift perfectly; with
friction shifting you are dependent on auditory feedback to align the
chain, and it's largely absent.

So what does this mean in practice? My experience friction shifting
Hyperglide 8 was that I'd downshift approaching a light or stop sign,
and thought I was correctly aligned. I'd stop, and when loading up the
drive train on start-up, the bike would upshift with a BANG.

I switched that bike to index shift levers and all is well. I moved the
friction shifters to a bike running Hyperglide 7 and all is well there.
7 is spaced wider, i.e., the sprockets are farther apart from each
other, making it easier to align the chain.

I also discovered something entirely counter-intuitive and counter to
long established "old timey" practice. In the old days, when you
downshifted you relieved pedal pressure on the drive train. That made
shifting much easier. What I found with Hyperglide is that if you load
the drive train, i.e., put pressure on the pedals, the downshift becomes
snappier and more positive, engaging the next sprocket with a clunk.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 17:53 -0700, Eric Peterson wrote:
> Short cage vs long cage has to do with chain wrap capacity, not the
> largest sprocket on the cassette.
> Maximum sprocket is a different characteristic.
> All you need to know on this subject can be found here:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers-rear.html
>

The page you link to contradicts what you said. I quote:
"Wide Range SGS
[Cage length] 86 mm center-to-center
If you want to use a rear sprocket bigger than 30 teeth, this is the
type you must have."

[PATRICK MOORE]

Steve's suggestion here makes sense (for once!). I shift what are, in
effect, 9 speed cogs with Silver bar end shifters and had to learn the
hard way -- ie, by suffering ghost shifts, particularly in one or two
cogs -- before I realized that I had to move the shifter *just* enough
for the ramps and hooks to catch, and then wait until they dragged the
chain onto the next cog; this instead of trying to essentially
overshift and then move the lever back a bit as I am accustomed to do
with non H-G cogs and for wider spaced H-G cogs. Once I learned to be
patient and let the H-G system do its thing, I had no more shifting
problems.

One other thing: I've also found that a newly installed -- and
therefor tight and skipping -- link can elude even careful visual
inspection. I've often had to use my fingers as I rotated the chain
backward to identify a stiff link causing skipping.

(PS: Steve; psssstt!! Contact me off list and I'll tell you what
gloriously crude tools and wild method I just used to remove certain
non-essential braze ons from one of my Riv customs!)

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--
"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

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Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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