titanium for touring

[dr...@charter.net]

Boy did I get an eye opener today. Went out cycling- very windy,
usually take my Atlantis for days like this, however Project Atlantis
is still in the works. Took my Klein, got blown into gravel and fell
over- no injury due to low speed and helmet bumping the concrete
instead of head. I know that I would not have fallen on my Atlantis
due to its stability.

Which raises the question of someone taking a lightweight Titanium
touring bike cross country. Friend is letting son do this, with
trepidation. When we spoke a year ago my advice was obviously a steel
bike. He recently told me he got a Salsa, Titanium bike. Went to their
website and they do have one model they advertise for long distance
touring- very light.

Obviously they will have panniers to weigh the bike down, but the bike
itself and thus the center of gravity is very light, although I know
Titanium is strong. Does anyone know anything about touring with such
a light bike. For some reason, I always felt that the weight of my
Atlantis is what made it feel so safe no matter what the conditions.

[William]

The weight of the frame of the bicycle has almost nothing to do with whether or not a rider is going to get blown into a ditch by wind.  If somebody copied the identical geometry and clearances of your Atlantis in Titanium, and you then built it up with the same components and weighed it down with the same panniers and other cargo, your crosswind stability would be basically indistinguishable from a steel Atlantis.  Independent Fabrication offers their Independence touring frameset in both steel and Ti with the claim of equivalent ride capabilities, which I believe.  

Will that Ti Salsa be a good touring bike?  Dunno.  If it turns out to be a lousy touring bike, it will not be because the frame weighs too little.  

A racing bike converted to touring might not be a good choice.  Even a cyclocross bike used as a substitute touring bike can be a questionable choice, but thousands of happy tours have been done on suboptimal bikes.  

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Stability is more a function of wheelbase and steering geometry and traction than it is a few pounds of bike weight. Besides your touring bike would generally have 40+ lbs of gear strapped to it, which makes a light bike into a heavy bike.

[IanA]

Wheel and tire choice are the best places to start - then frame type/rack construction etc. 1.75" x 26" tires are a good choice. There's not too many cheap options unless you go old mountain bike frame. The Surly LHT offers the option though. Mind you I rode 32,000km over some terrible roads and through some insane winds on a sport tourer on 700 x 35mm tires. Made it work. Next time 26" wheels though.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Add the weight of the rider and the difference even between a 14 lb
carbon fiber bicycle and a 25 lb steel bicycle is insignificant with
regard to c-o-g and wind balance; 9 lb would certainly make a
difference on hills and when accelerating, considering the bicycles
unladen, of course.

Not too long ago I rode in 45 gust to 56 and, at the worst, riding
sideways to the gusts, had the bike pushed toward the wall along the
edge of a bridge, but I was never in any real danger of being blown
over. The worst thing was the sandblasting.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

I should add that one bike may well suffer more from wind than
another, but I doubt it is a difference in weight that causes the
difference in effect.

[dougP]

drnat:

Glad you were not injured in the "blow over". "Helmet bumping
concrete" is a graphic description. I've fought bikes in cross-winds
& it's not fun. At least my Atlantis allows me to wrestle it down the
road in those conditions. Better get yours back on the road!

The frame material and the weight of the bare frame are not indicative
of suitability for touring. The geometry (is this particular frame
designed for touring?) and the wheels & tires are major contributors
to stability (or lack thereof). If the frame is can take at 35mm or
greater tires and has the relaxed geometry of an Atlantis, then it's
suitable for touring.

Many years ago, Rivendell commented that the Atlantis frame is
"...about 1 lb more than our other frames..." but that was before the
Bomba, HungP, etc. Assume any Riv is a bit heavier than a comparable
bike designed with weight in mind, then my (uneducated) guess is an
Atlantis/HungP/Bomba frame may be 2-3 lbs heavier (if that?) than
something else. Add the same components, strap on 40 lbs of touring
luggage, and that small frame weight difference is undetectable.

dougp

[Michael Hechmer]

I don't disagree with the observation that frame geometry is the most important variable for a touring bike, but the frame weight choice isn't as clear cut as some suggest.  Touring frames necessarily need to be stiffer than a racing or rondeneuring frame, and that added stiffness always adds weight.  The added stiffness makes the touring bike easier to ride with lots of luggage strapped on. While you can certainly make a good stiff touring bike from titanium,  you might want to think twice about setting out on a long tour on a frame that was originally designed for quick acceleration, which typically means a more flexible and lighter frame.  The weight of a frame may be irrelevant to the total weight but the stiffness is not.  Heavier frames feel slower not because they are a pound or two heavier but because they are stiffer and less responsive to sustained acceleration.  A lighter, more flexible frame, once loaded with  touring gear  will be more prone to erratic handling.

Michael

[ascpgh]

I rode my Ram across country on a very light (credit card) trip and
faced all kinds of winds including the storms prior to afternoon
tornadoes in Kansas. Loaded or unloaded stability comes from the
design and intended use of a bike. If one is intended for touring it
will be fine unless foolishly loaded to the opposite.

My colleagues were on Serottas, customers from the same shop where
their sage was of a different perspective than Grant. The outcome was
them pushing their DA racing triple bikes up the steeps in Appalachia,
replacing a saddle that felt like a dull axe in Illinois, replacing a
dead brifter in Kansas and generally suffering a posture that was best
inflicted for three to five hour events, not ten or twelve hours on
the pedals.

They were much more precarious in wind, much more afraid down hills
and through turns and mortally petrified by the possibility of rolling
off the edge of the pavement at speed due to close passing traffic.
Their trip was a different one than mine, I don't know if the husband
and wife really even ride at all now.

Might I add that I was comfortable, capably geared, robust of
hardware, confident in fast descents, curves and the slowest steepest
of climbs. I performed all the bodges keep the others going; that
failed brifter while on the frontier deserves a special place in
Hell. The Suntour downtube shifter set I carried from Virginia was
worth their weight in gold as were my much scoffed-at fenders (my
drivetrain was cleaner and suffered the least wear and need for chain
replacement of the group).

The right tool for the job is such an important and valuable choice!

ANDY
Pittsburgh

[Greg J]

I don't know what model your friend got, but I see that there is a ti Vaya.  Ti would not be my first choice because I too have a bias toward steel, and I have never ridden a ti bike.  However, the Vaya seems to be a well-regarded and well-designed frame, and my impression of Salsa is that they know what they're doing.  They have been at the forefront (as far as major companies go) of the whole bikepacking and snow-biking niche, and they seem to have plenty of people testing their bikes in the real world.  I would think that if it didn't work, they would not have introduced the model.  So, it may not be as big an issue as you fear.

Greg

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:35:43 PM UTC-7, dr...@charter.net wrote:

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:35:43 PM UTC-7, dr...@charter.net wrote:

[dr...@charter.net]

Still figuring out how to work this board, so hope this turns out in
the right spot.

This kid is not an experienced cyclist. The frame is advertised as
touring geometry although I need to ask him which model he bought. I
agree with wider tires. I used 26" 1.5 wide when I crossed the USA
pulling a trailer-- it always felt very stable, even on the steepest
downhill coming East out of Yellowstone. I am going to find out a bit
more about his bike and tire sizes as he is still putting details
together for his trip.

I am a litte stiff today with a minor knee abrasion. Think I will swim
and sit in the hot tub today before I head out cyling again tomorrow.
Thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I am still digesting all
that Atlantis suggestions, but think I am going to make my rebuild
simple and classic with just a few changes in the gears, crank and
possibly shifter types.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Winds is tough.

But, there are a large number of variables in that Klein vs Atlantis comparison. You could start with tire contact patch size, work through bottom bracket height and chainstay length, on up through stem length and saddle setback - all of which directly effect stability.  When you ride one bicycle more than the other, there are myriad of subtle cues and corrections which your muscles learn, so if I were to hop onto a bicycle I rode 10 years ago, it would be monstrously twitchy and weird (hey - it _was_ an open-wheeled racer) because I hadn't spent the amount of hours on it recently.   I would expect those two aspects conspired against you in this case.

Certainly, we all rode bikes of suspect performance and fit, and they worked just fine until we moved up a bit to better designs.  But, when we had the first coaster brake bike or 10 speed, that was all we rode, so our skill set in terms of dealing with adverse conditions was pretty high.

I would suspect that a decent, well-designed frameset and component setup (including appropriately rigid racks for his load) will be fine for his trek.  Not perfect. Not all that he'll ever want in a bike, but safe and rideable.   I'd take Titanium way, way before I did that with aluminum, and certainly well before CF.  The only significant factor working against Ti in this application is that it has specific rewelding requirements, if it were to break enroute, not just anyone can put a torch to it.

Big tires, appropriate braze ons, lots of bottles, good clearances are the key.

As far as crosswinds go, I will share that I've seen a lot of good and experienced riders get flummoxed and pummelled by such conditions.  Myself included.  In fact, it was my frustration that led me to seek them out for a  while to test my hypothesis - Most riders react absolutely the wrong way in a cross wind.

Simply put, they turn the bars into the wind when it suddenly hits them.  It's an easy reaction, but all that does is make the bike go the other direction - FAST.

Now, we all know that the bicycle turns by countersteering.  But, when wind throws a punch at us, we instinctively react towards it - we stiffen and turn the bars towards the wind. This of course sets the bicycle on a turn with the added force of the wind.  Things get even more wiggly if you then re-react harder into the wind to offset this movement.  You are mechically turning the bike one way through countersteering (e.g. turning the bars right to go left), but then doing everything you can to resist that turn by leaning into the wind. That's where the lack of control resides.

What I've found helps is to stiffen my wind-side arm and relax my lee-side arm - even going so far as to put a deeper bend in my elbow.  When the wind punches, the offside arm gives and the bicycle countersteers into the wind.  For me, this lets me relax my upper body significantly and run a truer line.

Hope that is of help,

- Jim

[Anne Paulson]

I rode cross country with a fellow on a Seven titanium bike. It was
fine, he was fine. I'm quite sure that the five pounds or whatever
difference between a loaded Atlantis and a loaded Seven will make
approximately zero difference in their handling in the wind. (I'm not
saying they handle the same, just that the difference will not come
from the lightness of the Seven frame.) And if both bikes are loaded
similarly, they'll have the same center of gravity, too.

I've done a tiny amount of touring on my Klein touring bike. It too
was fine. I prefer my Atlantis for touring, but again, not because the
Klein is too light. If I could magically subtract five pounds from my
Atlantis and change nothing else, I would.

This is a complete non-issue.

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-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[William]

Anne nails it again.  

We still need to work on that gravity control knob.  :)

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[Bruce Herbitter]

If i could magically subtract 5 lbs from my derriere,  i would too.

Sent from my Kindle Fire

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From: William <tape...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed Apr 11 15:26:02 CDT 2012
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] titanium for touring

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[Anne Paulson]

I have a plan for that. ACA's Sierra Cascades, Mexico to Canada. The
weight might not stay off, but I'll definitely weigh less at the end
of August than at the end of May.

>> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
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>> -- Anne Paulson
>>
>> My hovercraft is full of eels
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