Can I rant just a minute?

[Anne Paulson]

I love riding with my bike club, really I do, and they're wonderful
people and great riding companions, but can I just rant here, among
like-people, for just a minute?

I swear, when someone shows up at my club with a new bike, the first
and only topic of discussion is weight.

WEIGHT IS NOT THE ONLY CRITERION WHEN PICKING BIKE FRAMES AND BIKE PARTS.

Thank you. I'll lower my voice now. I was very good today on my clubs
bike ride, 29 miles, 3900 feet of elevation, lots of sections in the
high teens in grade. I kept my mouth shut, mostly, did not swear, and
did not mention that I thought my companions' bikes were ridiculously
overgeared for what they were trying to do with them. I did not say...

...No, a compact double is not significantly lighter than a triple,
and if you can't climb that hill without weaving back and forth and
getting in my way, not to mention dangerously cutting across the
center line, you should put a triple on your bike.

...You can't notice a two pound difference in weight. You can't,
unless you can tell me with a straight face that you climb
significantly faster when your water bottles are empty.

...If you weigh 98 pounds, stiffness and compliance in a bike are
irrelevant for you. Also, if you weigh 98 pounds, you're not climbing
faster than me (when you do) because your *bike* is lighter than my
*bike*. I could ride a weightless bike, and I'd still weigh more than
you and your bike put together.

Yawn. As I said, I love riding with my club. But jeez, there's more to
bikes than how much they weigh.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

"there's more to bikes than how much they weigh."

Yeah, like aerodynamics. :-)

My bro-in-law is a wannabe racer type. Bicycles are one of the few things we have in common. But the reality is that we don't have that in common either. We always end up talking bikes at family gathering but it's more like we tell each other what bike related things we've been up to. I think both of us secretly want to enlighten the other to switch sides on the racer vs unracer divide. 

--Smitty

 

[Joe Bernard]

I don't know how you ride a Rivendell with that particular group of folks, but I enjoyed this immensely. ;-)

 

Joe "I'm slow because I pedal that way" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

 

 

[robert zeidler]

...and likewise some of the hand-wringing that occurs here on the list.  It seems to border on neurosis at times (lol).

RGZ

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[newenglandbike]

I can only imagine the bikes in question (so I'm just going on pure assumption here) but my theory is this:   weight comes up so often because on certain modern plastic bikes, it is the only redeeming quality left to praise.

[Michael Hechmer]

Anne, Anne, Anne,  the world is full of delusional people.  It takes a lot of focus just to avoid catching other people's delusions.  Don't waste energy or sacrifice your joy reacting to them.

We finally have some winter weather - about 8" of fresh snow & minus 10 temperatures - so I wont be riding for a while.  It do look beautiful.

Michael,

Westford, Vt

take care of Self; it's one of a kind and irreplaceable

[Mike]

On Dec 28, 11:11 pm, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>can I just rant here, among
> like-people, for just a minute?

Yes you can and thank you. That was pretty funny. I gotta say, I read
your post after checking on some things related to rebuilding my Cross
Check as more of a light weight go fast road bike. My current road
bikes, a Hilsen and a Bryant randonneur, are great but I've wanted
something a little sportier with no Brooks saddle, no fenders, short
reach and shallow drop bars set-up a bit below the saddle, maybe
700x28 tires... I'd like to say I don't know why but the truth is I've
been thinking that it might be a bit "quicker". Busted.

I'll probably still do the conversion on my Cross Check because I do
want to try out some of the newer modern bars and I just feel the need
to mess with Cross Check set-up every couple of months.

Really, I just need to get my fat ass out on the bike and get some
miles in my legs. Between the holidays, bad weather and sloth I
haven't been riding much. That said, I signed up for a 200k permanent
on 01/02. The longest I've ridden since Oct has been maybe 40 miles.
This'll be interesting...

--mike

[opa...@gmail.com]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Nearly everyday, a coworker, who rides a carbon fiber bike, comes in my office, lifts up my Atlantis by the top tube and exclaims: "My god that's heavy".  I've run out of things to say to him in reply so I may forward your post instead.

As a side note, since I've put my "massive" (his words) 50mm Schwalbe Big Apples on the Atlantis a few weeks ago, I swear the bike is actually quieter, nearly silent.  I never realized how loud tires can be...or maybe I just had some bad ones before?

Happy New Year!
Robert Opalko

[Eric Norris]

I've embraced "heavy" bikes, and they've become part of my cycling persona--my nickname on the bike is "Diesel," in part because Diesels tend to be heavy. I proudly declare to all who will listen that there is virtually nothing on any of my bikes that was chosen because it was light.

--Eric

campyo...@me.com

www.campyonly.com

www.wheelsnorth.org

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[Beth H]

Anne Paulson for President

--Beth in PDX

[robert zeidler]

Go for it Mike.

On Thursday, December 29, 2011, Beth H <periwi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anne Paulson for President
>
> --Beth in PDX
>

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[René Sterental]

The explanation I love the most, and that tends to shut people up as their brains start processing it is the one that I believe both Grant and Jan have expressed separately.

The weight of a bike only amounts to about 4% (I think) of the total rider + equipment. You wouldn't talk about the performance of a car and exclude its engine, so why do that with a bicycle? It's your engine that counts, and unless you're racing with someone else whose engine is equal to yours, the weight of the bicycle becomes practically irrelevant. All the other factors this list know so well are more important.

And then, unless the other person is that 98 pound rider that Anne had to endure, you make the suggestion that they (and you) would be better off by losing that weight difference themselves if they want to improve their performance...

Then again, sometimes it's just better to shut up and rant on this list for just a little bit... ;-)

Happy New Year!

René

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Roadie club types tend to be the most unimaginitive of cyclists. Riding faster or "more efficiently" is the only goal, and lighter weight, to unimaginitive types, is the most obvious way to do that. In the social order of the group, one wins peer approval by conforming to this gospel.

Any Rivendell type is probably by nature a nonconformist, who will show up to a fast club ride with 40 mm tires just to experience the incredulity of the other club members. Some of us will get miffed if the other club people don't appreciate that the Riv is anything but heavy and primitive. (of course, the Riv group has its own nuanced gospel of conformity)

Side-story about weight: we mostly carry touring type bikes at my shop. Nothing lightweight by racing bike standards. Amazingly, it's a frequent occurrence for a customer to lift a 28-lb bike and say, "wow, that's light!"

[Joe Bernard]

If I can make my Hilsen a little lighter without sacrificing ride comfort and utility, I will. A lighter bike takes less effort to pedal over a hill than a heavier one, but focusing on a couple pounds difference between bicycles is madness. Speaking of "madness", you'll see plenty if you try picking up my bike every day..

[Leslie]

(Forgive me typing one-handed, a sleeping 3-wk-old grandaughter is in one arm);

A)  there are 3 other bicycle-folks at work in my office;   they're 'cyclists', on CF bikes, worrying over grams.... whereas, I'm the one w/ a fendered steel Ram.... they can't figure why I'd want steel bike w/ fat tires (28s or 32s) (but are amazed that its not as heavy as they expected....)


B)  when my son and I rode the last Burnsville Metric, I think there was one other steel bike there, and I know I was the only one w/ fenders.... I was definitely the 'one of these things is not like the others' guy... and enjoyed it!....


(All the weight needs to be lost off of me, not my bike!)

-L

 

[davidfrench]

Very refreshing !
we live in a business society where if you can't compare the size of
your engine -cough- you need some marketing BS -weight for example but
limited to- to show off with your new plastic bike.
If they were applying this (reducing weight) to cars, maybe the
american car industry won't have need a bail out.
(rant over)
:-)
cheers

[Bruce Herbitter]

I think that Ann could unload the eels and she'd be way faster up the hills....


Like Ann, I have almost only good things to say about the local club folks that I often ride with. The great majority of them keep their gram obsession comments under wraps, and "wow that's a gorgeous bike" is about all I hear when pedaling up in the Ram, Saluki, or Road Std.  In fact there is a growing population of SFBs (steel framed bikes) in our little cadre and a visible spread of leather seating even on the Al, Ti, and C frames as well.  I'm still trying to get more wool converts though...


Tailwinds!

[Ray Shine]

Like most on this forum, I agree with all the comments, and applaud Anne for spot-on comments. That said, the undeniable fact remains that many more riders pass me on CF bikes then I pass on same.

---

From: "opa...@gmail.com" <opa...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 29, 2011 7:19:22 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Can I rant just a minute?

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[Kris Kenow]

I do enjoy riding with others, but if you and your companions are not on the same wavelength it can suck.

Let em ride 29 miles like (insert fast cyclist here),  I'd go ride 120 miles like Jan or 60 miles like Grant.

Some people know how to enjoy being in the saddle longer than others.

> Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:11:42 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Can I rant just a minute?
> From: anne.p...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

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[Joan Oppel]

Recent interaction to add to the rant:  I joined a local club group for a 'Christmas lights' ride a couple of weeks ago on a Sunday evening.  The route involved part of hilly Arlington County (but not the truly devilish hilly sections of the county).  A friend of mine invited me, he wanted me to meet 'Bunny', a woman he described as "70 and doing adventurous rides with her group of friends".  So Bunny and I met, and being close to the same age, we bonded quickly.  But I was on the Bleriot and she was on a Specialized carbon fiber, compact double bike - and struggling on the hills.  She asked me why I could so easily go up the hills (well, I do ride a LOT and usually on hilly terrain).  I said, well, you might do better with more gears.  She replied, I know, I shouldn't have listened to the guy in the bike shop who sold me this bike and told me it had all the gears I would ever need.  

THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE AT BIKE SHOPS MAKES ME CRAZY! 

 Ok, that's the end of my rant, and by the way, I said nothing further to her about bikes.  We just chatted about other stuff for the rest of the ride.  Plus, she didn't show up for the next Christmas lights ride the following week, which did include some of the steeper Arlington hills.  Sad.  I've learned to try and keep my gear/weight thoughts to myself (try, operative word).

Joan

PS - I invited Bunny to join me on a ride I'm leading in a moderately hilly location for another local club mid-January and promised that she wouldn't be dropped.  So maybe I can help her along in her biking career.  

 

On 12/29/11, Ray Shine<r.s...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

Like most on this forum, I agree with all the comments, and applaud Anne for spot-on comments. That said, the undeniable fact remains that many more riders pass me on CF bikes then I pass on same.

---

From: "opa...@gmail.com" <opa...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 29, 2011 7:19:22 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Can I rant just a minute?

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Nearly everyday, a coworker, who rides a carbon fiber bike, comes in my office, lifts up my Atlantis by the top tube and exclaims: "My god that's heavy".  I've run out of things to say to him in reply so I may forward your post instead.

As a side note, since I've put my "massive" (his words) 50mm Schwalbe Big Apples on the Atlantis a few weeks ago, I swear the bike is actually quieter, nearly silent.  I never realized how loud tires can be...or maybe I just had some bad ones before?

Happy New Year!
Robert Opalko

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[Anne Paulson]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Joan Oppel <oppe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Recent interaction to add to the rant:  I joined a local club group for a
> 'Christmas lights' ride a couple of weeks ago on a Sunday evening.  The
> route involved part of hilly Arlington County (but not the truly devilish
> hilly sections of the county).  A friend of mine invited me, he wanted me to
> meet 'Bunny', a woman he described as "70 and doing adventurous rides with
> her group of friends".  So Bunny and I met, and being close to the same age,
> we bonded quickly.  But I was on the Bleriot and she was on a Specialized
> carbon fiber, compact double bike - and struggling on the hills.  She asked
> me why I could so easily go up the hills (well, I do ride a LOT and usually
> on hilly terrain).  I said, well, you might do better with more gears.  She
> replied, I know, I shouldn't have listened to the guy in the bike shop who
> sold me this bike and told me it had all the gears I would ever need.
>
> THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE AT BIKE SHOPS MAKES ME CRAZY!

That's ridiculous. The best guess for a crank for a 70-year-old woman
riding in an area with hills is a triple, with very low gears. Isn't
it usually possible to install a triple on these bikes with stupid
compact doubles? I would have suggested that the woman get her bike
changed over. If one is in one's 70s, one shouldn't be missing out on
good riding-- when we start getting on in years, we need to take
advantage of all the riding we can squeeze in.

One of the people I was ranting about is the 98-pound woman, who is in
her 60s and a strong climber. She has a compact double on her bike,
and she assured me that a triple would be too heavy. And yet-- I was
stronger up some of the *very steep!!!* hills, she was stronger on one
long *steep* hill, though she ended up zigzagging. But then, at the
end, there was one more steep hill. And, having not had to kill myself
in a too-high gear on all the other hills, I rode up it and she
skipped it. People should ride the bikes they want, but it seems to me
that some of these riders have chosen bikes that are keeping them from
doing riding that they would enjoy on a different bike.

And the other thing about these light bikes that annoys me is, OK, you
will ride faster up hills on a lighter bike, all other things being
equal. That is perfectly true, and in my club we do a lot of hills.
But... this is only a positional good. That is, if everybody buys a
lighter bike, then everybody will be just that little bit faster, but
nobody is any better off. That is, Ted can still beat Susan, and Susan
can still beat Alan, but the order of arrival at the top of the hill
will be exactly the same as if they all rode Rivendells. It's a
pointless arms race. And my club is big, so we have lots of rides for
people of all abilities, so riders can always find people of about the
same speed anyway.

A Riv, on the other hand, has intrinsic value that doesn't depend on
what other people are riding. No matter what my riding friends are
riding, my Roadeo will still be beautiful. It'll be comfortable, and
it will handle like a dream. Unlike those carbon fiber bikes, my
Roadeo fits fenders so I will still be able to ride through winter
storms while they're staying home. My green Atlantis will still go
anywhere anytime carrying pretty much anything I want, and my purple
Atlantis will be the perfect touring machine that I can ride every
day, loaded, for weeks and months, through mountains and forests. I
get pleasure out of my bikes, independent of what other people have.

[Rex Kerr]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:19 AM, opa...@gmail.com <opa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Nearly everyday, a coworker, who rides a carbon fiber bike, comes in my office, lifts up my Atlantis by the top tube and exclaims: "My god that's heavy".  I've run out of things to say to him in reply so I may forward your post instead.

 

The question is... do they lift it while it's still fitted with panniers that still contain your lunch, the tools that you use more frequently for saving stranded CF riders than to fix your own bike, and half full bottles?

 

I inevitably have to laugh when they try to lift my bike by the middle of the top tube, and the loaded rear wheel doesn't even come off the ground before they exclaim that it's heavy...  oh, really?  You mean my canvas bags, glass and stainless steel lunch containers, and tools weigh as much as you'd expect an entire bike to weigh?

[PATRICK MOORE]

I love hills, and I love carrying loads up hills -- a shopping load up a hill on the trike is great fun. Disclaimer: I am a short distance rider, 30 miles being a long ride -- call me a 1/10 Eric. But this means that I am quite happy pushing biggish gears uphill: 20 lb in the Hoss, standing in a 50" low up a local, very steep, 4/10 mile hill is one example, or ditto on a 1 mile long but less steep hill (I rate hills by rough average coasting downhill speed: the very steep is a 40+, the longer one a 30 or 35 depending on the section). Anyway,  one of cycling's great pleasures is standing on hills, IMO. 

Still, it is very nice on occasion to get on my 17 3/4 lb gofast fixie and push a 75" gear up the same hills. Zen out and take it slow and easy.

Patrick "about to haul some groceries up some hills on the newly be-Campered Fargo" Moore in 50F ABQ, NM

--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

[PATRICK MOORE]

Well, while I agree that weight obsession is silly (at least, I am largely over it now) and conventional racer gearing is also silly for most mortals, I would not discount weight and compact doubles altogether. I had a very nice 2X9 mountain bike that had a 20" low -- no reason compact doubles can't have very low gears. And, again, it is a joy to push a bike 10 to 15 lb lighter than my heaviest vehicles up a hill in a highish gear. Chacun/e a son/sa gout/e.

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[dougP]

"I swear, when someone shows up at my club with a new bike, the first
and only topic of discussion is weight."

My guess is there isn't much else to discuss about a new racing bike!
Basic design, materials & components are all so tightly spec'd that a
customer has to know exactly what they want to get anything
different. A friend recently bought a MCRB and insisted on changes.
She's an experienced rider & spec'd a triple, wide range cassette and
flat bars. The shop built it up her way but it took some discussion.
She didn't buy the line about "it's so light you won't need lower
gears." Funny thing is shop guys argue against "the complexity of a
triple" and in the next breadth are touting the wonders of the 10
speed.

On the other hand, we can wax poetic about racks, bags, luggage,
lights, fenders, tires, etc., because We Have Choices! Cantis or V-
brakes? 28mm or 50mm tires? Nitto or Tubus? Grant said something to
the effect that a frame is just a place to install parts. So far, I
haven't stopped fiddling with my Atlantis.

dougP

On Dec 28, 11:11 pm, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Esteban]

"I swear, when someone shows up at my club with a new bike, the first
and only topic of discussion is weight."

Whenever someone asks me "how much does it weigh" at a stoplight when
I'm riding the Protovelo, I say 17 lbs. Its a good way to end that
conversation.

On long rides when I'm trying to keep a good pace, little things like
weight matter - but not as much as comfort. I actually think design
has more to do with speed than anything else bike-related (rider makes
the difference!).
Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

[Robert F. Harrison]

When folks me ask me how much my Quickbeam (or my Friday for that matter) weighs I answer honestly, "I haven't the foggiest, but if I lost five pounds the whole package would be five pounds lighter." Then I go ride fifty or sixty miles, with tools, snacks, cameras, this and that. I'm slow but happy, even on hills where I'm never the first up, but darn if I don't fly down 'em. :-) 

Aloha!

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[Allan in Portland]

Maybe it's just me, and I mean no offense, but all this talk of older women climbing hills on over-geared bikes gives me the willies. I'd think the knees wouldn't remotely stand for that sort of abuse.

-Allan

[brian feltovich]

Yep, I know the feeling well, and I'm relatively new to this game. I was lucky enough to discover Grant and Bridgestone early on and to find shops like Jim Thill's Hiawatha Cyclery along the way.

Sadly, most cyclists don't actually know much about bikes. So picking up a bike and checking its weight is a bit like looking at a used car and (literally) kicking its tires. And the bike industry uses weight to sell bikes the same way that the car industry uses horsepower...it's a number that can be thrown around despite having almost nothing to do with utility or enjoyment. It's dismaying to eavesdrop on buyers at a bike shop or listen to guys on a sales floor talk about the Trekdaleized bikes on offer.

Of course, at the other end of the spectrum, where folks maybe know too much, are the bike collectors with never-ridden wall-hangers who want to talk about thinned lugs and tubing diameters and patina. Gee, those Delta brakes don't work very well, but they sure are pretty!

I'm just glad I have room in my garage for several bikes. I have a CF weight-weenie bike that is fast and fun on group rides, I have a steel bike with fenders and lights and bags, I have a full-squish mountain bike for trails, I have a rigid MB for other days. I even have a snowbike for winter trail riding. Different tools for different days.

I try to keep a sense of humor about the weirdness of cycling clans, but sometimes it's hard.

Brian
Park City, UT

[EastBayGuy]

On Christmas Day, my Uncle, Cousin and myself decided to Ride Mount Tamalpais from Fairfax to my Aunts House in Larkspur. They Both had Full Suspension Marin Racing Mountain Bikes and I was on My Atlantis with Fenders and a Medium Saddlesack with a 6 pack of Sierra. :-). A few Mountain Bikers along the way stopped and where amazed that my bike was where it was on the Mountain with my "little" 47mm marathons. Besides almost killing myself on Indian Trail it was nice to be able to keep my pace with them even though my bike weighs almost double.

Heavy or light it all comes down to the rider, legs and Drive and not necessarily the Machine.

Dustin G

Walnut Creek Ca

[Patrick in VT]

On Dec 29, 2:11 am, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yawn. As I said, I love riding with my club. But jeez, there's more to
> bikes than how much they weigh.

As someone who commutes daily, rides for fun almost daily and knows
that lightweight isn't always the best choice, I agree 100%.

But, as someone who also races, I'd argue that weight matters.

Yes, it's frustrating when other riders have a narrow point of
view . . . it's goes both ways though. Some folks never look at a
bike as anything more than a means of exercise or competition or
whatever - that's their loss. And some folks will never experience
all the good stuff that comes along with healthy competition and
setting personal goals/records - and it could be said that they're
missing out on something too.

in any event, i get pretty stoked when I see folks riding smart lugged
steel bikes. i get equally as stoked when I see folks tearing it up
on their race bikes. cycling is a great thing regardless of how you
slice it. or maybe i'm just easily motivated.

[Joan Oppel]

Yes, Anne - it is ridiculous that this 70 year old does not have a triple.  And I had to bite my tongue NOT to tell her to go get her bike outfitted with a triple.  It wasn't really the time/place for that - in the dark, looking at Christmas decorations, holiday spirit among the group.  That's one reason why I invited her to come ride with me on another occasion.  

I will talk to her about retrofitting it when I next see her.  The countryside here has a lot of beautiful scenic places to ride, but the prettiest areas have hills. 

However, retrofitting her existing bike will not be cheap - it is usually possible to install a triple but it takes some work and could cost her (just an educated guess, folks) around $300, maybe more.   Given that the retrofit would allow her to bike more, more easily and see more of those scenic places, maybe she'll be willing to spend the money.

My other bike (other than the Bleriot with standard Riv build) is an 8 year old Waterford.  However, I spec'd every bit of it, so it has a triple, low gears, comfort geometry, and room for 30-32mm tires.  Every couple of months, some guy on a club ride comments on my cassette (11-34), "wow, that's quite a low gear you've got there".  I say, "you bet it is".  I may only use that gear once every 3 months, but when I want it, there it is.  My low gear was especially helpful in Southwest Virginia this past June on a Bike Virginia tour, where most people walked many of the hills.  Or, as Anne describes, were weaving back and forth in that dangerous way - because with hills that steep, you couldn't see oncoming cars.

 (I actually didn't know about Rivendell when I bought the Waterford, and I didn't spec the geometry but did describe the comfort I wanted.)

Joan 

[Joe Bernard]

Two quick points: 1. Horsepower matters. My 260hp Chevy HHR SS is much more fun and useful than my 140hp Civic was. Getting going NOW when the need arises is worth the money. 2. Delta brakes sure are pretty. ;-)

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 11:50 -0600, Joan Oppel wrote:
> She asked me why I could so easily go up the hills (well, I do ride a
> LOT and usually on hilly terrain). I said, well, you might do better
> with more gears. She replied, I know, I shouldn't have listened to
> the guy in the bike shop who sold me this bike and told me it had all
> the gears I would ever need.

They almost certainly also told her a compact double gave her the
identical low gear that she would have with a triple. And, for a very
narrow set of assumptions, it does.

Of course, that set of assumptions doesn't include cassettes with 32, 34
or 36 tooth sprockets, or granny rings with 24 or 26 teeth, or triples
with big rings of 46 or 48 teeth: in other words, Joan Oppel-style
gearing! That is to say, the sort of gearing you will find on most
Rivendells.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 10:16 -0800, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
> And the other thing about these light bikes that annoys me is, OK, you
> will ride faster up hills on a lighter bike, all other things being
> equal. That is perfectly true, and in my club we do a lot of hills.
> But... this is only a positional good. That is, if everybody buys a
> lighter bike, then everybody will be just that little bit faster, but
> nobody is any better off. That is, Ted can still beat Susan, and Susan
> can still beat Alan, but the order of arrival at the top of the hill
> will be exactly the same as if they all rode Rivendells. It's a
> pointless arms race. And my club is big, so we have lots of rides for
> people of all abilities, so riders can always find people of about the
> same speed anyway.

I remember when boutique wheels came on the scene. There was a bunch of
guys in my bike club who always rode together. First one, then the
next, eventually one by one, they all switched to high-zoot boutique
wheels. It was an arms race, with the goal of being the fastest in the
pack. When it was all over, everyone was in exactly the same position
in the pack that they'd been in before, but collectively they'd spent
enough on wheels to buy a new car. But they all felt FAST. And looked
PRO.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 13:19 -0800, Joe Bernard wrote:
> Two quick points: 1. Horsepower matters. My 260hp Chevy HHR SS is much
> more fun and useful than my 140hp Civic was. Getting going NOW when
> the need arises is worth the money.

Unless you spend a lot of time robbing convenience stores or at the drag
strip, just how often does the need arise to "get going NOW"?

[Joe Bernard]

Unless you spend a lot of time robbing convenience stores or at the drag
strip, just how often does the need arise to "get going NOW"?

 

Merging on freeways, getting away from lane-darting idiots on freeways, zipping past left-turners who can't see a bright red car anymore than they can see bicycles and motorcycles. I had a series of Toyotas and Hondas which would respond to these moments with noise, and not much else. Nobody needs 500hp, but half that is pretty useful where I live. But I digress.

[Kelly Sleeper]

Anne

I thought a Roadeo was a weight weenie bike.  :) 

Kelly

I'll have to remember to duck after my wife reads this one.

[Bertin753]

Joe: I'll take uou any day in my Acadiane. (When I get the clutch fixed.)

Patrick "30 hp requires a non-slip clutch" More

Patrick Moore
Typed with two thumbs on my
iPhone

[cyclotourist]

Kris, I'd say the corollary to that is throwing a little bit of dirt
into the ride. I can't imagine riding on a bike that I couldn't
wander down a dirt track on. A ride just doesn't feel right if it
doesn't include some dirt in it! I'm not saying a MCRB w/ 23s can't
ride a road like this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/6590503805/in/photostream
(yesterday's ride), but most riders on said bike wouldn't want to do
it.

[Liesl]

Thanks, Anne, for kicking off such a spirited thread. Let loose a
rant anytime! And I just gotta also say that I like reading about
women in their 60's and 70's riding. I'm in my 50's and hope to be
like Rosalind Carter riding her Glorius (or did I just make that up?)
in her 80's.

liesl

[Joe Bernard]

I've got the power, but the Citroen will get me with lightness. Until a big gust of wind on the pass between Vallejo and Fairfield...

[dougP]

"They almost certainly also told her a compact double gave her the
identical low gear that she would have with a triple. And, for a
very
narrow set of assumptions, it does."

I've heard this from more than one source & I too puzzle about it.
Assuming the typical MCRB comes with a standard Shimano road cassette,
the "big" (I use the term loosely) cog is 27 or 28. If a road triple
has a 30 inner ring & a compact double a 34, something has to change
before the bike leaves the shop to get that "identical low".

Recently I have seen a number of racing bikes fitted with wide range
cassettes with 32 or 34 big cogs. I had this discussion during a long
climb with a gal with such a set-up. She was kinda grinding away on
her lightweight, compact double racing bike while I was able to keep
up a decent cadence with the 24 granny on my Atlantis. We discussed
the possibility of a triple along with the wide range cassette being
more useful on such a climb. The subject of comparative bike weights
was left untouched.

dougP

[Joe Bernard]

I think one thing that gets missed about folks who prefer Compact Doubles is that it isn't just about a minimal weight savings: It's looks. "Touring bikes have triples, racing bikes have doubles." This matters to modern-carbon-racey people. Plus, SRAM's Tapshift only works doubles.

[Steve Palincsar]

The usual comment you see on the forums is "triples are too
complicated." Can't say I ever understood that.

[Joe Bernard]

The usual comment you see on the forums is "triples are too
complicated."  Can't say I ever understood that.

 

I think some people find the centering/trimming activity betwen the small and middle rings troublesome. Most of these people are running indexed front brifters, which, in my one experience, sucked several levels of Big Time for triple-shifting. It's a shifter problem, not number of chainrings.

[William]

Weight matters.  It just matters less than some people think.  I did a 200k permanent with my cousin on the 27th.  He was on a 17lb bike, and I was on my Hilsen which is a svelte 24lbs with no handlebar bag but with a handlebar bag and two full bottles, it's got to be 35 lbs.  I had to think the fact that his bike weighed half of mine had to make some difference.  But, if I was going to obsess about weight, I wouldn't have brought the camera.  

[Kelly Sleeper]

Here is fun chart to play with

http://bikecalculator.com/veloUS.html

Kelly

[René Sterental]

The dream of every CF roadie should be to have a buddy who rides a Rivendell and brings along the camera, food and other elements that enhance the ride, while they secretly envy the careless freedom that not worrying about weight and bringing along the stuff you want, provides.

René

On Thursday, December 29, 2011, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:
.  But, if I was going to obsess about weight, I wouldn't have brought the camera.  
>

> --
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[William]

We had several different conversations about bike envy during the very pleasant day.  They were all about how he envied my bike. 

"I thought I was done with steel bikes until today"
"That handlebar bag is looking good right about now"
"Those lights are really great, which hub is that?"
"Those puddles probably didn't stripe you with those fenders, huh?"

[jimD]

On Dec 29, 2011, at 10:30 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote way more than this:
…snipped... conventional racer gearing is also silly for most mortals….snipped

Here is my experience with gearing and mortality.

Some ~25 years ago I was riding a custom bike built by Dave Porter in Albuquerque, NM .
The bike had Campy Nuvo Record parts.
As I recall the double crankset was a 50/42. The seven speed freewheel was a 13-26.

In those days this worked fine for me for climbing to the Sandia crest( 5k vertical).
Riding the high mountain passes from Durango to Silverton, Co was great fun. Doing fast centuries was a blast

I loved that bike and continued to ride it for many years. As I entered my 50's and then 60's I gradually discovered that
I was no longer interested in or capable of climbing steep mountains or hills.

Getting a carbon bike with a triple and then a Rivendell with a triple and even lower gearing was my personal
cycling renaissance.

A reason that 'most mortals' often end up on racing bikes with inappropriate parts (high gears/skinny tires)
is the narrow way that bicycling get promoted and marketed.

All racing, all the time, is not a great foundation for a life long sport.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it,
-JimD

[Montclair BobbyB]

Hah!!! You probably left out:

"Why are you smiling, Bill, when we're all hurting?"... or
"Is that Brooks saddle REALLY that comfortable?"... and my favorite

"Why were those ladies smiling at YOU?"...

[PATRICK MOORE]

I love climbing in stiffish gears, but my climbing is slow and generally on hills that either are gradual even if a few miles long, or, if steeper, no more than 1/2 mile. Rolling terrain is what I like most. And I don't race but pace myself -- the great lesson I've learned from riding fixed gears.

OTOH, I was very glad to have the 36/29 yesterday when climbing back with a Camper full of groceries (~34" with 40 mm tires). I find slow torquing even when doing seated climbing at sub 7 mph easier than spinning a granny -- 60 rpm on a steep hill with load in a mid 30s gear is easier for me than 90 in a sub 30".

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http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

[William]

MBB you flatter me

I hurt at the end of any 200k, just like anybody.  The great thing about the Homer is that the pain is never in my hands, feet, neck, or shoulders.  My legs hurt plenty, and whether or not my butt hurts has to do only with whether I've been putting the time in. 

Also, the Home doesn't have a Brooks...I'm a weight weenie apparently.  250g Avocet from the early 90s.  I run that saddle on both brevet bikes. 

The ladies smile at the one that smiles at them.  That's often me, I confess.  I'm a smiler.  :)

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2011-12-30 at 08:56 -0800, Montclair BobbyB wrote:
> Hah!!! You probably left out:
>

> "Is that Brooks saddle REALLY that comfortable?"...

Funny, usually they start telling me about how it takes forever to break
one in and how you need to use a ball peen hammer...

How far we've come from the days when Packard used to advertise, "Ask
the man who owns one..."

[benzzoy]

On Dec 29, 5:04 pm, Joe Bernard <joerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think some people find the centering/trimming activity betwen the small
> and middle rings troublesome. Most of these people are running indexed
> front brifters, which, in my one experience, sucked several levels of Big
> Time for triple-shifting. It's a shifter problem, not number of chainrings.

Those people should try Campagnolo Ergos (the good ones) as those
aren't indexed and thus offer a lot of trimming.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Excellent bilingual gender neutrality...

---

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 1:31 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [RBW] Re: Can I rant just a minute?

Well, while I agree that weight obsession is silly (at least, I am largely over it now) and conventional racer gearing is also silly for most mortals, I would not discount weight and compact doubles altogether. I had a very nice 2X9 mountain bike that had a 20" low -- no reason compact doubles can't have very low gears. And, again, it is a joy to push a bike 10 to 15 lb lighter than my heaviest vehicles up a hill in a highish gear. Chacun/e a son/sa gout/e.

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Joan Oppel <oppe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Recent interaction to add to the rant:  I joined a local club group for a
> 'Christmas lights' ride a couple of weeks ago on a Sunday evening.  The
> route involved part of hilly Arlington County (but not the truly devilish
> hilly sections of the county).  A friend of mine invited me, he wanted me to
> meet 'Bunny', a woman he described as "70 and doing adventurous rides with
> her group of friends".  So Bunny and I met, and being close to the same age,
> we bonded quickly.  But I was on the Bleriot and she was on a Specialized

> carbon fiber, compact double bike - and struggling on the hills.  She asked

> me why I could so easily go up the hills (well, I do ride a LOT and usually
> on hilly terrain).  I said, well, you might do better with more gears.  She
> replied, I know, I shouldn't have listened to the guy in the bike shop who
> sold me this bike and told me it had all the gears I would ever need.
>

> THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE AT BIKE SHOPS MAKES ME CRAZY!

That's ridiculous. The best guess for a crank for a 70-year-old woman
riding in an area with hills is a triple, with very low gears. Isn't
it usually possible to install a triple on these bikes with stupid
compact doubles? I would have suggested that the woman get her bike
changed over. If one is in one's 70s, one shouldn't be missing out on
good riding-- when we start getting on in years, we need to take
advantage of all the riding we can squeeze in.

One of the people I was ranting about is the 98-pound woman, who is in
her 60s and a strong climber. She has a compact double on her bike,
and she assured me that a triple would be too heavy. And yet-- I was
stronger up some of the *very steep!!!* hills, she was stronger on one
long *steep* hill, though she ended up zigzagging. But then, at the
end, there was one more steep hill. And, having not had to kill myself
in a too-high gear on all the other hills, I rode up it and she
skipped it. People should ride the bikes they want, but it seems to me
that some of these riders have chosen bikes that are keeping them from
doing riding that they would enjoy on a different bike.

And the other thing about these light bikes that annoys me is, OK, you
will ride faster up hills on a lighter bike, all other things being
equal. That is perfectly true, and in my club we do a lot of hills.
But... this is only a positional good. That is, if everybody buys a
lighter bike, then everybody will be just that little bit faster, but
nobody is any better off. That is, Ted can still beat Susan, and Susan
can still beat Alan, but the order of arrival at the top of the hill
will be exactly the same as if they all rode Rivendells. It's a
pointless arms race. And my club is big, so we have lots of rides for
people of all abilities, so riders can always find people of about the
same speed anyway.

 A Riv, on the other hand, has intrinsic value that doesn't depend on
what other people are riding. No matter what my riding friends are
riding, my Roadeo will still be beautiful. It'll be comfortable, and
it will handle like a dream. Unlike those carbon fiber bikes, my
Roadeo fits fenders so I will still be able to ride through winter
storms while they're staying home. My green Atlantis will still go
anywhere anytime carrying pretty much anything I want, and my purple
Atlantis will be the perfect touring machine that I can ride every
day, loaded, for weeks and months, through mountains and forests. I
get pleasure out of my bikes, independent of what other people have.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

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[Kelly Sleeper]

My wife runs a compact double. 48x24 .. on her ROADEO. Guess it doesn't matter double or triple but get gearing that works for how you ride.

kelly

[Joe Bernard]

Exactly. My XO-3 is 42-32, with a 13-21 freewheel. It works great on steep hills because...I don't ride it on them. I have an AHH triple for that.

 

Joe "different tools for different jobs" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Anne Paulson]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Kelly Sleeper <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My wife runs a compact double.  48x24 .. on her ROADEO.   Guess it doesn't matter double or triple but get gearing that works for how you ride.

Which is fine. For some terrains, for some riders, a compact double is
just the thing. But riders who either skip roads because they don't
have low enough gears, or who zigzag on hills they ride, need lower
gears.

[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

I was told the other day that the 40X26 double on my AHH is a "Portland Double". 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Re: complicated triples.

With STI shifters, which are ubiquitous in the high-end road bike market, shifting with triples has always been finicky. Recent STI seems better, but still not as simple as it is with friction.

Like DougP said, road triples have just a 30t low (and a 50t or 52t big ring). I assume it's customary to combine that with a 12-27 so chain wrap considerations don't cause problems. With the compact double and a 34t small ring, you could more easily use a 11-32 or whatever without chain wrap being such an important variable. Therefore, the low gear in both setups may be similar.

[Anne Paulson]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: complicated triples.
Hmm. My Roadeo has a 28 in the front, and a 34 low, or it might be a
32. And I use that low gear at least once a week. But then, I like to
climb long, ridiculously steep roads.

> With STI shifters, which are ubiquitous in the high-end road bike market, shifting with triples has always been finicky. Recent STI seems better, but still not as simple as it is with friction.
>
> Like DougP said, road triples have just a 30t low (and a 50t or 52t big ring). I assume it's customary to combine that with a 12-27 so chain wrap considerations don't cause problems. With the compact double and a 34t small ring, you could more easily use a 11-32 or whatever without chain wrap being such an important variable. Therefore, the low gear in both setups may be similar.

[Mojo]

On my Legolas I have 36/50 chainrings and the 12-36 Shimano 9speed cassette that Rivendell sells. That gives me a low gear of 36X36 = 27inches. As an unloaded bike I haven't run into anything I can't climb with that gear, or its too technical dirt for me and that bike anyway. I have triples on my load carrying bikes.

[Steve Palincsar]

Personally, for grades over 12% that go on at that steepness for a mile
and a half or two miles, I like to have a 22" gear. I might not stay in
it for the whole distance, but it sure is nice to have it. 24 front, 30
rear will give it to me. This is on a 24/36/46 110/74 triple that most
of the time is used as though it was a compact double (that just happens
to have a third granny ring).

It's easy to get good gearing with 9 speeds. It's a bit more difficult
with 10, or at least it was until recently. In the past year or two,
SRAM has released the Apex system which has 10 speed cassettes that go
to 32, 34 and maybe even to 36. google results are inconclusive: I can
find 12-36 for sale, allegedly, but can't find a listing on SRAM's site
for them and nobody can tell me what sprockets come on it.

It's also curious what sprocket combinations you do find. The 11-32's
gears are reasonably well spaced, except that the 11 is too high; but
the 12-32 has a gap between the largest and next to largest sprockets
that's large enough to fall into and get lost.

I know Shimano has some 10 spd Mtb cassettes now, but can't find out
much about them: are they in fact compatible with road shifters or with
"old" Shimano MTB rear derailleurs?

[EricP]

But Jim's shop is in Minnesota (as am I). There are no ridiculously
steep roads here. While I have medium low gearing on my bikes
(usually 26 or 24 up front with 32 to 36 in rear) I rarely use my
granny gear unless loaded up.

Then again, I no longer ride with folks as am too fat and slow. And
still have been known to zig-zag up hills.

Oh, and as to weight, have said before that none of my bikes is under
35 pounds. And that's without the bags, tools, tubes and other stuff
usually added. Probably when underway everything is 40 to 45 pounds.

Guess I don't care what the MCRB crowd does as I have nothing to do
with them at all. Unless they yell at me while passing.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Dec 30, 6:09 pm, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:

[brian feltovich]

Living in the mountains, I'm very happy to have a 30/46 compact double setup. With a 12-32 cassette in back I can spin my steel bike up most things. Barcons make front dérailleur trimming easy. If I had loaded bags on board I suppose I'd be happy to have a triple, but as it is I appreciate the elegance of the 50.4 bcd cranks. Knees are still good, touch wood.

Brian
Park City, UT

[René Sterental]

The differences in gears between the 12-36 9sp cassette and the 11-36 10sp is subtle. But to run 10 speed you'll need new shifters and chain.

HG61 - 9speed:
12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36

10speed:
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36

Weight might differ as well since 10 so goes all the way up to XTR.

René

[GAJett]

I've ridden a Brooks Pro for years, first on a Raleigh Competition (replacing the original B-17) and now on an AHH.  It has NEVER hurt me, even when new, the way other saddles have.  And it has never seen the business end of any blunt instrument (other than my bum).

BTW my gearing is a "half-step + granny":
front:  44 / 41 / 24
rear:  12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 28 / 32 / 36.
This gives a gear range from 18.2 to 100.2 inches on 650Bs.  It'll climb just about anything where I can keep the front wheel down, and I can keep climbing when bonked.

This is based on a standard Shimano cassette from RBW and a special combination of chainwheels with Sugino 44 and 24 ordered from RBW and the 41 a TA from Harris Cyclery.  Kudos for Grant and the RBW staff from setting this up.

For those not familiar with the "half-step + granny" you can consider this to be a compact double with the ability to fine-tune the gearing on the high side between the large chainwheels.  I've ridden this type of gearing for 30 years and wouldn't change for anything!  (Originally a TA 49 / 46 / 26 by SunTour Ultra 13 / 15 / 17 / 20 / 23 / 26 102 to 27 inches -- I'm getting older.)
Cheers.

[Bob]

The people who tend to fret over equipment weight are usually the 20
percent bodyfat and above crowd. Just sayin'.

[Rambouilleting Utahn]

At 6'-1" and 230 pounds my reply is usually "look at me, I'm obviously
not a weight weenie". I then try not to stare at their extra baggage
when I then say that "I've never been a fast climber"

I love my triple and my next freewheel will have an extra couple of
teeth.

[robert zeidler]

The custom cassettes from Harris Cyclery have been a revelation.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Amen (and a respectful minute or two of silence) for the half step + granny setup. Except, you don't need more than, say, six cogs to make it work and once you get (or, at least, once *I* get to seven, I run out of things to do with the extreme cogs. What do you do with the extras?

I used to love my commuting 48/45 with something like 12-13-15-17-20-24-32 semi/syntho/faux/ersatzsemi/demi/ halfstep setup: the 12 was strictly for the outer for downhills with winds; 13 thru 24 half stepped beautifully with a 24.75" wheel; and the 32 was for the 43 that, therewith, gave me a stump pulling 33" gear for the one or two very steep hills I encountered. 

Odd: I find that I'd much rather have these gears: 85-75-70-65-60-50 than a much wider range of gears without the 70, 65 and 60 inchers. 

Patrick "Just spreading myself (in M Twain's idiom) and not criticizing anyone. I have for very long found bicycle gearing a fascinating topic, even when I use very few" Moore

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[robert zeidler]

It would be interesting to run an even lower combo up front to bring the "straight block" esque portion fully into play.

Someday I'm going to run a 9/10/11 speed straight block w/ a wide range double to minimize duplication and simply run through everything on the small ring and do the same on the big ring. That's over simplyfying it a bit but Sheldon worked it out for me a few years ago.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Whacha need is found here:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Rarest/straight_block.htm

[robert zeidler]

Lmfao!  Doesn't get much straighter!

On Sunday, January 1, 2012, PATRICK MOORE <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mike]

On Jan 1, 10:35 am, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The custom cassettes from Harris Cyclery have been a revelation.
>

Yeah, they're great. I just wish they hadn't stopped making the 8spd
ones. Anyone know how to make one? Is it a matter of just altering a 9
spd cassette? I know the 9spd versions are still available. I prefer
the 8spd as I like the wider spacing although I have to wonder, is it
really noticeably different?

The gearing I really like is on my randonneur--46/30 matched with a
13-28 6spd FW. I like the way this works with Riv shifters. I seem to
have every gear I need. I just wish I had more confidence in the IRD
FWs. My first one crapped out on me immediately. The 7spd I used
temporarily and the warrantied 6 spd have been fine so far.

--mike

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 15:03 -0800, Mike wrote:
> Yeah, they're great. I just wish they hadn't stopped making the 8spd
> ones. Anyone know how to make one?

They stopped because Shimano changed the way the cassettes were
constructed, and taking the current models apart is too labor intensive,
requiring grinding. I believe if you want to, you could do the grinding
yourself and make your own custom cassettes.

[dougP]

Mike:

I make my own 8 speed cassettes. If you can match the series letters
(see the charts on the Harris site) they shift better but especially
friction they work pretty well even mis-matched. I've even tossed in
a few 7 speed cogs to get what I wanted & they still work OK, but my
standards are not that strict.

Funny you should ask about modifying a 9 speed. I inherited an 11-34
9 speed, and have it torn apart to put 8 speed spacers in (toss the
11). I'll know in a day or so if it works.

The 13-26 8 speed that is commonly available makes a good base
cassette. Tossing the 14, 23 & 26 and adding 28 & 32 from an existing
cassette works well. About all I actually wear out are the middle
ones like 17, 19, 21, maybe the odd 15 once in a while. Great fun.

dougP

[dougP]

On Jan 1, 3:13 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
>
> They stopped because Shimano changed the way the cassettes were
> constructed, and taking the current models apart is too labor intensive,
> requiring grinding.  I believe if you want to, you could do the grinding
> yourself and make your own custom cassettes.

I've filed off the rivets & it is labor intensive. A dremel or
similar would be easy. Another issue to be aware of is that some
cassettes use a spider to hold together a lot of the larger cogs. You
can only mix'n'match at will the ones where each cog slips onto the
freehub body independently.

dougP

[RoadieRyan]

Anne,

Great thread - appears you have hit on a great theme based on all the
responses. I am a "reformed" weight weenie who now rides steel so I
tend to see both sides of the issue. Ironically my journey to steel
started with lust for a Specialized Tarmac CF bike. I had test rode
and thoroughly enjoyed the Tarmac but while thinking about acquiring
one, my buddy who was urging me to buy it causally mentioned "well of
course you couldn't ride it around where you live"- lets just say many
West Seattle roads have had a few decades of "maintenance deferral".
That got me thinking- do I really want a bike that I have to drive to
a bike path or really smooth road just to be able to ride?! Well no
that sounds stupid to me so I started looking around at less fragile
options and stumbled across the Riv site and my love of Lugged Steel
began.

I will end by saying I had the good fortune of being able to visit the
Riv show room in January '11. I rode a Sam and a prototype San Marcos
both of which inspired big stupid grins on my part. When I picked up
to the Sam to move it for my test ride I was stunned at how LIGHT it
was. I looked at Grant with shock and said "why do you go to such
lengths to convince people that weight doesn't matter? you imply that
your bikes are heavy (except the Rodeo) and dang this Sam is so
LIGHT!" He kind of chuckled and said he hears that a lot.

Ryan "Clydesdale's against Carbon Fiber" Surface

On Dec 28 2011, 11:11 pm, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I love riding with my bike club, really I do, and they're wonderful
> people and great riding companions, but can I just rant here, among
> like-people, for just a minute?
>
> I swear, when someone shows up at my club with a new bike, the first
> and only topic of discussion is weight.
>
> WEIGHT IS NOT THE ONLY CRITERION WHEN PICKING BIKE FRAMES AND BIKE PARTS.
>
> Thank you. I'll lower my voice now. I was very good today on my clubs
> bike ride, 29 miles, 3900 feet of elevation, lots of sections in the
> high teens in grade. I kept my mouth shut, mostly, did not swear, and
> did not mention that I thought my companions' bikes were ridiculously
> overgeared for what they were trying to do with them. I did not say...
>
> ...No, a compact double is not significantly lighter than a triple,
> and if you can't climb that hill without weaving back and forth and
> getting in my way, not to mention dangerously cutting across the
> center line, you should put a triple on your bike.
>
> ...You can't notice a two pound difference in weight. You can't,
> unless you can tell me with a straight face that you climb
> significantly faster when your water bottles are empty.
>
> ...If you weigh 98 pounds, stiffness and compliance in a bike are
> irrelevant for you. Also, if you weigh 98 pounds, you're not climbing
> faster than me (when you do) because your *bike* is lighter than my
> *bike*.  I could ride a weightless bike, and I'd still weigh more than
> you and your bike put together.
>
> Yawn. As I said, I love riding with my club. But jeez, there's more to
> bikes than how much they weigh.

[Mike]

Hey Doug, I may contact you off list later this week to ask about
this. Like I said, my Sheldon Special cassette was great. It was 8
speed and I think something like 13-30, worked really well with a
triple at first and then later with a compact double. Unfortunately I
didn't stay on top of changing out the chain frequently and it wore
out.

I'd really like to make my own 7spd cassettes.

--mike

[Steve Palincsar]

You know, there's a really nice standard 7 speed 13-30.

[Bertin753]

IME home brew cassettes work fine in friction, with -- IME -- only the rare juxtaposed pair not getting along. I've never bothered to pay much attention to marching series. Miche 0makes just about every size for decent prices -- $10 for the 15 and 16 outers I ordered from my LBS, dor example.

Patrick Moore
Typed with two thumbs on my
iPhone

[dougP]

Mike:

If you saved your Sheldon that's a big help because large cogs wear so
slowly those ones are probably still usable. Contact me off list
whenever you want.

OTH, if you like 7 speed there is a better selection of those than 8
speed. 13-28, 13-30, 13-34 are usually available. Check Sheldon's
table for actual dimensions but 7s cogs & spacers are a bit thicker
than 8s which are thicker than 9s. So the cogs are further apart &
less fussy to shift. IMHO as long as each rider can get the total
range and spacing between gears they like, i.e., no big holes or gaps,
fewer is better in terms of life span & ease of use.

dougP

[Mike]

Thanks Doug, I'll be in touch.

--mike