Velocity quality

[Tim]

Ok so I've had the Homer for 2 years and am about to get my third rear wheel. Here's my story: Peter White built the bike and wheels. Velocity Synergy with XT hubs and 36 spokes.I hit a pothole pretty good fairly early in the bikes life. LBS said rim couldn't be tried so they built up another Synergy with my hub. Fast forward to now. That wheel has maybe 5-7k miles on it and has stress cracks all over it. They started around the spokes and spread to the sides. So time for another. I'm working in CT now and found a LBS that knows what a Riv is. Owner builds the wheels. Well, he says that Synergy rims (and Velocity in general) are just not that good. I've heard the same thing out of a couple of other people too, and they k ow more about wheels than me. Thing is, I can't imagine why Riv and Peter would so highly recommend them if they're poor quality. But my experiences are making me wonder, what with 2 wheels in around 10k miles. LBS guy is recommending a Mavic, I think one of the CXP styles saying they're much stronger. What should I do???

[Toshi Takeuchi]

There have been some bad batches of Velocity rims. I bet if you
contacted Velocity, they would replace the rim free of charge, but you
would have to build up the wheels. All of my Velocity rims have been
good so far. I hope it stays that way.

I built my first Mavic CXP wheel. It looks like a rim without
eyelets, but they are hidden, so I imagine they would be stronger than
say Velocity Aeroheads (which I also have). I like it a lot so far....

Good luck,
Toshi

[Matt Beebe]

I've had the opposite experience with synergies and now dyad rims.    I put at least 15K on a set of synergies in all seasons including lots fully loaded, and the very snowy and salty new england winter of 2010/11, and only had to replace them because the sidewalls/braking surface had worn way too thin for comfort.    Mavic rims seemed to last well too, but I would reckon maybe you have hit a bad batch or something.

[Will]

These wheels take a lot of punishment and wear over time. Riding style, rider weight and terrain have to be taken into consideration. Even though I have learned to ride with a certain amount of finesse I still consider myself to be a clyde weighing in the 190-240 lb range throughout my cycling "career". I have gone through many wheels in many ways including the dreaded stress cracks around the spoke holes. I've done this to Mavics and Velocities. I have never had a manufacturer not replace the rim under warranty no matter how long I had been riding it. Send it back to the builder. Riv (Rich) are/is especially good about this type of customer service. I've purchased one wheel from Peter White. A front dyno wheel. Fronts generally don't have stress problems like these. So I never needed to approach him under such circumstances. He might charge you for the rebuild if the wheel is more than a year old but I can't imagine Velocity not giving him a new rim.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 23:28 -0800, Toshi Takeuchi wrote:
> There have been some bad batches of Velocity rims. I bet if you
> contacted Velocity, they would replace the rim free of charge, but you
> would have to build up the wheels.

Velocity has not only replaced cracked rims free for me, they have also
built the wheels. Labor, spokes and shipment both ways have also been
free.

Call or email them.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 23:19 -0800, Tim wrote:
> LBS guy is recommending a Mavic, I think one of the CXP styles saying
> they're much stronger. What should I do???

FWIW, I have had Mavic rims crack, too: MA40, back years ago, and fairly
recently a couple of MA3s. However, unlike with the Velocity rims --
all of which have been replaced free by Velocity -- Mavic has never paid
as much as one red cent towards replacement.

[Will]

Yeah, I never had to deal with Mavic directly so I shouldn't speak of them. When I had Mavic rim failures it was always the builder (usually Excel) taking care of me. In fact I've never had to deal with Velocity directly either. It's always been Rich built Velocity's for me and he's always kept me rolling.

[Ron Mc]

Mavics are excellent, and if you look around you can still find NOS Rigida.  I have a set of 30-y-o Rigidas on Zeus GS hubs that have probably 30K on them and have been trued twice in that time, and over a gillion potholes.  The hubs are oxidized around the spokes, but the wheels are so strong it would be a waste to take them apart to polish the hubs.  Replaced the bearing balls again last summer, and they're the best-rolling wheels I've ever seen.  My buddy's Ultegra hubs don't roll with them.  

[Matthew J]

Velocity was having trouble keeping quality consistent in Australia but have since moved production to the United States.  Believe the U.S. made versions will be hitting the stores next year.

 

Apparently I have been real lucky as the three Velocity rim wheelsets I have, one made by Peter White, one Rich Lesnick and one by my LBS are exceptionally durable.

 

[cyclotourist]

Velocity MUSA rims are in distribution. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/8081303981/
I don't know if that's across model lines, but definitely with the A23s.

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Velocity was having trouble keeping quality consistent in Australia but have since moved production to the United States.  Believe the U.S. made versions will be hitting the stores next year.

 

Apparently I have been real lucky as the three Velocity rim wheelsets I have, one made by Peter White, one Rich Lesnick and one by my LBS are exceptionally durable.

 

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[Peter Morgano]

Not a jerk question but what is the lifespan of a set of rims, on average?

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[Ron Mc]

I'm a metallurgist and licensed professional engineer.  If you make something monolithic, it doesn't have a life span.  If it's not monolithic, it fatigues at something below 10 million load cycles (if it exceeds 10 million load cycles, it's assumed to be monolithic).  On a rolling wheel, cycles add up quickly.  What is being called stress cracking is really fatigue, and it generally means there is a soft spot or hard spot, or mechanical divot the the point the crack starts.  Rims can also deteriorate by weathering and then eventually stress crack, which is corrosion-assisted cracking.  But if you do it right, there is no reason to have a life limit.  My Rigida rims have 18 million cycles on them.  

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 1:19:50 AM UTC-6, Tim wrote:

[Ron Mc]

oops, didn't convert inches to feet - they have 200 million cycles on them

[Ron Mc]

sorry, got it right this time, there 21 million revolutions on my Rigida rims.  

[Doug Van Cleve]

TIm,

I had a Velocity Razor rim crack at nearly every drive side spoke hole (rear wheel).  It never occurred to me to contact them about it, so I rebuilt the rear wheel myself with a FiR rim.  After the fact, I mentioned it on the phone to a guy there (don't remember why I even called) and he offered to rebuild the wheel with a new rim.  Since I didn't have a hub to use at that point, I never followed up on it.  I suspect if you call them, they will offer to rebuild your wheel with a new rim.  No idea if it applies to you, but Velocity used to spec a fairly low maximum spoke tension and my wheel was definitely above it...

Doug

[Matt Beebe]

If you ride in the grime and rain, a common reality if you commute by bike, your brake pads will eventually eat through the rim sidewalls.    Even if you only ride in dry conditions, dirt will get in there, between the pads and the rim, unless you are riding in a clean room.

[Bruce]

I had a Synergy rim do exactly the same thing. In addition, both rims were slightly undersized, so wire bead tires (all brands) wouldn't stay on. I could only get folding tires to stay on the rims.

Synergy offered to replace them (for the size problem), but I haven't gotten around to sending the rims to them, since it would involve unlacing a functional wheel. Now that the rear wheel has destroyed itself, I mean to send in that rim.

Bruce
Okemos, MI

[Eric Norris]

I have several wheelsets built with Velocity Aerohead rims, and thousands of miles of use on them. Never a single problem.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On Dec 5, 2012, at 11:19 PM, Tim <tim....@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ok so I've had the Homer for 2 years and am about to get my third rear wheel. Here's my story: Peter White built the bike and wheels. Velocity Synergy with XT hubs and 36 spokes.I hit a pothole pretty good fairly early in the bikes life. LBS said rim couldn't be tried so they built up another Synergy with my hub. Fast forward to now. That wheel has maybe 5-7k miles on it and has stress cracks all over it. They started around the spokes and spread to the sides. So time for another. I'm working in CT now and found a LBS that knows what a Riv is. Owner builds the wheels. Well, he says that Synergy rims (and Velocity in general) are just not that good. I've heard the same thing out of a couple of other people too, and they k ow more about wheels than me. Thing is, I can't imagine why Riv and Peter would so highly recommend them if they're poor quality. But my experiences are making me wonder, what with 2 wheels in around 10k miles. LBS guy is recommending a Mavic, I think one of the CXP styles saying they're much stronger. What should I do???
>

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[Ron Mc]

OK Matt, that counts as weathering - in this case it's mechanically assisted weathering - and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the cracks they are discussing on this thread.  

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

We've replaced (through Velocity warranty) a large number of cracked Synergy rims. I think Grant likes them because they're classic eyeletted box style and they are one of the only mainstream options in 650B with a brake surface. Velocity told me the more recent production Synergy rims have a thicker top-wall, which should help. I've been using Dyads and Aeroheads and the like for myself and numerous customers for 8 years with no problems whatsoever. We've been getting US-made Velocity rims for the last several months. Quality looks as good or better than Australian-made equivalents.

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 1:19:50 AM UTC-6, Tim wrote:

[Matt Beebe]

I was just responding to this comment, by you:

"Rims can also deteriorate by weathering and then eventually stress crack, which is corrosion-assisted cracking.  But if you do it right, there is no reason to have a life limit."

Matt

[Michael]

I love my Velocity Rims, but:

 

My Synergy, machined, 32 hole - the rim joint makes noise when brakes are applied (brand new rim, too.).

My Twin Hollow, non-machined, 32 hole - the rim joint makes noise when brakes are applied (older).

[Ron Mc]

the frequency of cracking reported on this thread suggests a systematic problem.  This is what I get paid for.  Again, this is fatigue cracking and denotes the stress where the crack starts is very close to (or above) the stress required to permanently stretch the metal (defined as the yield strength).  The discussion of over-tightening spokes could be a factor if the not the cause.  But then it also says the design is marginal, because you don't want your part to self destruct over a critical assembly measurement that is going to be ignored by virtually every bike shop mechanic.  More metal sounds in order.  

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 1:19:50 AM UTC-6, Tim wrote:

[Montclair BobbyB]

I have become a big fan of Rigida rims, especially the Sputnik (which is what I have on my Bomba)... but they're difficult to get in the US.  

I tend to treat my wheels kinda like I do shoes; as consumables... I'm tough on both, and so I've never been able to rationalize in my own head the idea of returning either (unless they're clearly defective within the first few miles)... instead I've learned how to build wheels, and somehow convince myself how excited I am to be 'upgrading' my rims when they need replacement.  

Peace,
BB

[Garth]

I've always used Mavic rims .. namely the A719/T520 ones.   While Velocity clearly stands up for their product if it fails .... it appears to fail at a higher than "average" rate for many.  I'd rather have a rim that did not fail under normal use, period, even if "heavier" or more $$.  Mavic rims do cost more upfront and this factors into some people's decision , but wheels are an investment long term .... so I do skimp on rims, hubs or spokes... as any wheel is only as good as it's weakest component.

[Matthew J]

> While Velocity clearly stands up for their product if it fails .... it appears to fail at a higher than "average" rate for many.  I'd rather have a rim that did 

> not fail under normal use, period, even if "heavier" or more $$.  Mavic rims do cost more upfront and this factors into some people's decision , but

 > wheels are an investment long term .... so I do skimp on rims, hubs or spokes... as any wheel is only as good as it's weakest component. 

Overly broad statement for two reasons:

First, Velocity makes a wide assortment of rims.  The problem rim cited above in every case is the Synergy, and apparently the Offset Synergy in most.

Second, as pointed out above, Velocity recently moved all their manufacturing from Australia to the United States.  Whatever the problem may well have been solved with the new machining, raw material sourcing, etc.

[James Warren]

Has anybody asked Rick Lesnik, who works extensively with Synergies, about his observations on this?

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[Leslie]

Actually, I did ask Rich about it.

"The cracking problem with the Synergy is with the O/C rim, when a too-heavy rider puts skinny high-pressure tires on, or fat tires pumped way up". " If you are worried, then I'd switch to the Synergy non-O/C in the rear as well -- a bit stronger rim."

That was what the advice I rec'd was. My Bomba has 36h Synergy rims front and rear, rear is O/C; I'm not a little fella (235); my wheels don't have most mileage yet, but haven't had a bit of trouble out of them either. Have mostly been running Neo-Motos, but have now switched to my Tour Rides....

[Garth]

Synergies are of course discussed here because RIv sells them, but this is a very small slice of cyclists in whole.  Do a search for Velocity rim cracks and you'll see there is a broad range of models with the issue.   Moving is no solution unless the root of the issue has been resolved.

----------------------------------

[Leslie]

I thought it was pretty clear to be predominantly a batch of O/C Synergies, some Chukkers too it seems... And Velocity not only is easily swapping rims, but have made production changes to address...

I'm curious to see if the problem continues, or if it is solved...

[Earl Grey]

I seem to remember from past threads that it was particularly the 36 hole O/C Synergies that were cracking. If you have cracked a Synergy, can you state whether it was O/C and 36 hole?

I have two 32 hole O/C Synergies on two bikes, with one around 4000 mi/3 yrs, the other maybe 1500mi/2 yrs, mostly unloaded, but the second one is on my rim-braked rigid 29er and sees a lot of single track. Both of them are fine. I weigh 175lbs, but bought non-O/C Synergy rears for my next two projects to be safe. Getting rims shipped to Thailand is an expensive pain in the rear. The only bike I have ever broken spokes on is a tandem with no-name hubs that don't support the spoke elbows well, so for me the O/C benefit is theoretical and not worth the risk, though as I said, both my O/C Synergies are fine so far.

Gernot

Thailand

[Stonehog]

I have an O/C 36 hole Synergy that has a few cracks.  I still ride it and it has at least 6000 miles.  The matching front Synergy has no such issues.  Wheels are Lesnick built with XT hubs purchased in '09.  It is on my replace list, but I have been building my own lately. I will replace with an A23 to match the new front wheel I recently dyno'd. 

Brian

Seattle, WA

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[Michael]

My LBS mechanic said he doesn't think cracks are just specific to Velocity/Synergy. He says he has seen cracks elsewhere, including his Mavic rim that cracked when he went to true it up.

[Brewster Fong]

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:45:59 PM UTC-8, Michael wrote:

My LBS mechanic said he doesn't think cracks are just specific to Velocity/Synergy. He says he has seen cracks elsewhere, including his Mavic rim that cracked when he went to true it up.

Rims cracking at the spoke hole have been around for a long time. Jobst Brandt use to complain about them back in the late 80s/early 90s. He did an analysis and blamed it on hard anodizing. The old Mavic MA40 was very susceptible. In contrast, polished MA2 rarely cracked. In fact, Jobst wrote a Bicycle FAQ on it:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/anodized-rims.html

Cracking can also occurred when rims are overtensioned and probably not properly stressed relieved. I had this happened on a Ritchey OCR rear rim. Yes, the rim was anodized, but it had probably less than 1000 miles on it. I think the builder overtensioned the rim and it caused cracking at the spoke holes. 

[Matthew J]

Moving is no solution unless the root of the issue has been resolved.

New machining, better labor skill set, better raw materials can all make a big difference.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

This Velocity cracking problem is almost exclusively an issue with the Synergy OC model, but Velocity claims to have beefed up the extrusion to fix the problem (I believe them, but time will tell). I have observed the same problem with various Mavic rims. I have observed the same problem with Sun CR-18 rims. I have observed the same problem with DT-Swiss RR series rims. I've observed the same problem with Salsa rims. I've NOT observed the problem with non-eyeletted v-profile rims like the Dyad, Aerohead, Aeroheat, A23, Deep V, HED Belgium, various Stan's NoTubes models, etc. I've also not observed it on some heavy-duty box rims like the Rhyno Lite, but those rims would be unacceptably heavy for most of us.

In my opinion, the classic eyeletted box-style rim is just a failure-prone design. The spoke exerts a strong force perpendicular to the wall of the rim. That's why the eyelet is necessary. But even with the eyelets, these rims are apparently not up to the abuse to which we subject them, especially for heavier riders with a rear-bias to the weight distribution (an effect of Rivendell-style slack seat tubes and high bars). High tire pressures and rough roads ridden by us all-rounder types are also a culprit.

[Matthew J]

Jim:

 

What you say makes a lot of sense in light of my good luck with Velocities.

 

My Synergies are on a Tom Kellogg / Spectrum Cycles 30th Anniversary bike with classic Italian race geometry.  I am middle of the pack weight wise (maybe the lower end these days) and do not carry loads on the bike.

 

The bikes I use for touring and urban commuting have Dyads.