Friction

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Hi, all!

Yesterday was my first decent-length ride with Silver shifters. They really are a joy to use: quiet and smooth. I understand the appeal.

However, I do see indexed shifting as a practical improvement over friction. While I expect that over time I'd get really good at operating these Silver shifters (they really are smooth!), I don't think I'd ever actually get to the point where the chain simply lands in alignment with the cog 98+% of the time, which is how I'd characterize my Shimano-shifter indexing experience.

Indexed shifting for me is less refined in usage. And that does matter, I think. And I do have to be conscious of cog-spacing when purchasing freewheels. But... appropriate freewheels are available. And indexing isn't some harsh jolt that destroys the peace of a ride. And the tinker-y adjustments it requires when I install a new derailer or initially set up a new cockpit take minutes not hours. It's no big deal. And for that small rare effort, indexed shifting works really really well without any thought, over and over. I like it.

So I'm not going to go all friction right now, though I will have at least one Silver-shifter-equipped cockpit set up from now on (probably one for each bike). I'll definitely get some practice in. Maybe I'll get better than I expect. In any case, if I do come to find indexed shifting problematic or even just too tedious, it's nice knowing it won't simply be a downgrade to move away from it. Using Silver shifters is definitely a positive aspect of friction shifting.

Oh... I set up the Silver shifters as bar-ends for now. I'll try them as top-of-the-bar Thumbie-mounted shifters at some point. I doubt they work as well that way. I'll try it, though. And perhaps I'll also try mounting them on the stem. That could be way cool. Talk about memory lane...

Below are links to some (sorta washed-out) pictures of my Silver setup. I'm using my lovely Tallux stem!

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

http://db.tt/M3ag8CI - whole bike
http://db.tt/n7eQmoK - front loaded
http://db.tt/cIz8oFc - normal home of SaddleSack Medium
http://db.tt/VzRUNlC - what's wrong with pink?
http://db.tt/xv5HhIx -Bordo and prototype canvas MUT
http://db.tt/BEk8Csh - gonna make a longer one
http://db.tt/Y01RjLd - Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish

[Michael Hechmer]

"I don't think I'd ever actually get to the point where the chain simply lands in alignment with the cog 98+% of the time, which is how I'd characterize my Shimano-shifter indexing experience."

You may be surprised at how accurate you can be with some practice.  One of the things that I like about the Silver shifters is that I can leap across most of the cassette in a single move, which is nice when or if you ride a lot of rolling hill country.

Enjoy,

Michael,

WEstford, VT

[Garth]

Thomas ...... your first ride with friction shifters and you're already saying you'll never be accurate shifting with them?   Give yourself some time with them. They require some conscious effort at first, but they'll get easier.  Stop comparing them with indexed shifters ..... 'cause that they are not .... nor will ever become!  That's like dancing with someone and wishing they were another .... LoL.

[Ryan J]

I use Silver downtube on my Jamis Aurora and Silver barend on my Sam Hillborne and I got to say if I was being honest with myself, I don't know if I will ever really go back to index shifters.  Maybe on a mountainbike because the quick precise shifting may be more helpful with the quickness of terrain change, but not on a roadbike (assuming I don't suddenly turn into a bike racer).  I just love the simplicity of the good old friction shifters, I love the fact that I have to actually think a little more about when to shift and I love setting them up.  Just plain easy.  They aren't for everybody though, some like the clicks of indexing and like the preciseness of shifts, assuming that the system is set up right, but I just like them to be nice and smooth.  The ability to go the entire length of the cassette has helped me out on the rolling hills here.  

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

I should point out... this was my first decent-length ride with Silver shifters, not friction. I rode with friction shifting for most of a decade as a teenager. Rode a lot, actually, compared to normal kid riding. While shifting then was never a big problem, it was something that I always to be better. Basically, I danced with friction while wanting indexing.

Obviously Silvers are better than those shifters from my youth. And it's possible I too could get better at friction shifting now. But in comparing them directly now, even with Silvers, I still find I like dancing with indexing. Its small downsides are outweighed by its continually repeating upsides. Friction has technical merit in a world where index-compatibility is non-trivial to acquire. And perhaps there are riding styles or needs that I don't have that friction serves better. But for me friction's upsides are basically aesthetic and as of now don't overwhelm indexing's overall appeal. I might get better at it and/or might increase my desire for the aesthetics. I'll get in a few hundred miles of practice in the next few weeks.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[PATRICK MOORE]

One place where I'd be inclined to choose indexing is for off road
riding where rough terrain makes smooth friction shifting hard to do.
As it is, my terrain is mostly flat, so I don't bother, but for
terrain that called for a lot more shifting, I'd be inclined to choose
it. But only 7 speed cassettes.

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
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http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 05:01 -0700, Thomas Lynn Skean wrote:
> I should point out... this was my first decent-length ride with Silver shifters, not friction. I rode with friction shifting for most of a decade as a teenager. Rode a lot, actually, compared to normal kid riding. While shifting then was never a big problem, it was something that I always to be better. Basically, I danced with friction while wanting indexing.
>

> Obviously Silvers are better than those shifters from my youth. And it's possible I too could get better at friction shifting now. But in comparing them directly now, even with Silvers, I still find I like dancing with indexing. Its small downsides are outweighed by its continually repeating upsides.. Friction has technical merit in a world where index-compatibility is non-trivial to acquire. And perhaps there are riding styles or needs that I don't have that friction serves better. But for me friction's upsides are basically aesthetic and as of now don't overwhelm indexing's overall appeal. I might get better at it and/or might increase my desire for the aesthetics. I'll get in a few hundred miles of practice in the next few weeks.

If you're having problems they may be related to the difference in
chains and sprockets now vs in your youth. In those days, you let up on
pedal pressure when downshifting; now I find you get a better, more
positive downshift if you /increase/ pedal pressure during the
downshift.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 04:04 -0700, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> You may be surprised at how accurate you can be with some practice.
> One of the things that I like about the Silver shifters is that I can
> leap across most of the cassette in a single move, which is nice when
> or if you ride a lot of rolling hill country.

You can do that with indexed bar end and downtube shifters as well.

[SamuelJames]

I tried friction for awhile with the Silver shifter and I got to the point where I could shift perfectly about 98% of the time.  I switched to Shimano bar-cons for a test and to be honest can not see myself going back to friction.  They work really well and when they are get out of whack I can reach down, click the barrel adjuster on the downtube stop and it fixes the cable stretch.  The one thing I do like about the Silver's is they are very easy to set-up and are not dependent on cassette size. 

[jimD]

I guess I should confess to being an 'imperfect' shifter.

I've got silvers on the Saluki and bar end indexers on the custom and like em both.
Never thought about high 90% shifting accuracy. Don't really notice probably cause I've got poor powers of shifter discrimination.

Or...I've just got wicked skillz from 20 + years of friction down tubers.

-JimD

Now I've got something to work on as I ride to work.

[Garth]

The truth is it really doesn't matter what kind of shifting one does.  If I had a choice of indexed or or not riding at all .... indexed it'd be :)   We have a choice though .... and we have good ones.  Life is a celebration of being .... doing . . .  . when my days as Garth are over . . . . I won't remember all those shifts . . . . but I will remember all those fabulous days riding in the breeze . . . . sun to my face . .  .  . smiling and feeling eternally free.

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

On Monday, September 12, 2011 9:37:24 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

The truth is it really doesn't matter what kind of shifting one does.  If I had a choice of indexed or or not riding at all .... indexed it'd be :)   We have a choice though .... and we have good ones.  Life is a celebration of being .... doing . . .  . when my days as Garth are over . . . . I won't remember all those shifts . . . . but I will remember all those fabulous days riding in the breeze . . . . sun to my face . .  .  . smiling and feeling eternally free.

 

Always a good point.

 

Though even I, currently a "considered" indexer (not a "committed" indexer), were my days as Thomas Lynn Skean to end (good thing I'm immortal!), would be much more likely to remember those Silver shifts than those with my SL-BS64.

 

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

 

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

On Monday, September 12, 2011 7:04:21 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

One place where I'd be inclined to choose indexing is for off road
riding where rough terrain makes smooth friction shifting hard to do.
As it is, my terrain is mostly flat, so I don't bother, but for
terrain that called for a lot more shifting, I'd be inclined to choose
it.

 

So far, terrain hasn't been an issue for me wrt using the Silvers. I think the trails I ride are well-enough maintained that general roughness won't be an issue. And goodness knows it's flat; I live and ride in Chicago suburbs. Most of my shifts are traffic- or signal-related.

 

But only 7 speed cassettes.

 

Is that because the 7-speed's wider cog spacing is more "forgiving" than 8-or-more's spacing? Or is there some other reason?

 

(Oh, thanks for the inspiration. I got some aluminum this weekend and did enough Dremel-practice with it to believe I can craft a light bracket. I hope to create one that sufficiently protects the light from wheel spray, can be used with my Mini/PlatRack/SlickerSack, and is reachable enough that I can turn it on/off, while straddling if not while riding, and rarely-if-ever requires adjustment to get the level right; it's a battery light that'll be removed/replaced daily.)

 

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

 

 

[Steve D.]

http://db.tt/Y01RjLd - Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish

I like that rackaleur solution for you Hobo bag. It's very elegant.
I've been using hemp tied between my Hobo bag's D-rings and brake
hoods to suspend it from the h'bars. I need to order one from VO.

-Steve DeMont
Seattle

On Sep 12, 3:07 am, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Eric Norris]

FWIW, I rode PBP this year with friction-shifting downtube levers.  There's plenty of varying terrain, and I found the setup (7-speed freewheel) to work just fine. I never really missed index shifting.  I also took comfort in the fact that there's very little to go wrong with friction levers--basically one moving part.

--Eric N

Sent from the iPad 2

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[Montclair BobbyB]

Out of practicality I ride indexed 9-speed derailleurs for off-road,
and can't imagine getting by without them; (in particular I like SRAM
XO gripshifters and derailleurs, as they offer fast, precise, flawless
shifting when you need it in situations where you can ill-afford to be
crunching in between gears).

On road where I vary between 5, 6, and 7-speed freewheels) I much
prefer friction for simplicity, overall feel and adjustability. Once
I get up to 8 & 9 speeds, though I prefer indexing. But I really
enjoy shifting much more when it's friction.

I liken this to automobile driving... For stop and go traffic I've
gotta have automatic transmission; for open road cruising I'd much
prefer manual (stick).

BB

On Sep 12, 11:34 am, "Steve D." <s_dem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://db.tt/Y01RjLd- Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish
>
> I like that rackaleur solution for you Hobo bag. It's very elegant.
> I've been using hemp tied between my Hobo bag's D-rings and brake
> hoods to suspend it from the h'bars. I need to order one from VO.
>
> -Steve DeMont
> Seattle
>
> On Sep 12, 3:07 am, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi, all!
>
> > Yesterday was my first decent-length ride with Silver shifters. They really are a joy to use: quiet and smooth. I understand the appeal.
>
> > However, I do see indexed shifting as a practical improvement over friction. While I expect that over time I'd get really good at operating these Silver shifters (they really are smooth!), I don't think I'd ever actually get to the point where the chain simply lands in alignment with the cog 98+% of the time, which is how I'd characterize my Shimano-shifter indexing experience.
>
> > Indexed shifting for me is less refined in usage. And that does matter, I think. And I do have to be conscious of cog-spacing when purchasing freewheels. But... appropriate freewheels are available. And indexing isn't some harsh jolt that destroys the peace of a ride. And the tinker-y adjustments it requires when I install a new derailer or initially set up a new cockpit take minutes not hours. It's no big deal. And for that small rare effort, indexed shifting works really really well without any thought, over and over. I like it.
>
> > So I'm not going to go all friction right now, though I will have at least one Silver-shifter-equipped cockpit set up from now on (probably one for each bike). I'll definitely get some practice in. Maybe I'll get better than I expect. In any case, if I do come to find indexed shifting problematic or even just too tedious, it's nice knowing it won't simply be a downgrade to move away from it. Using Silver shifters is definitely a positive aspect of friction shifting.
>
> > Oh... I set up the Silver shifters as bar-ends for now. I'll try them as top-of-the-bar Thumbie-mounted shifters at some point. I doubt they work as well that way. I'll try it, though. And perhaps I'll also try mounting them on the stem. That could be way cool. Talk about memory lane...
>
> > Below are links to some (sorta washed-out) pictures of my Silver setup. I'm using my lovely Tallux stem!
>
> > Yours,
> > Thomas Lynn Skean
>

> >http://db.tt/M3ag8CI-whole bikehttp://db.tt/n7eQmoK-front loadedhttp://db.tt/cIz8oFc-normal home of SaddleSack Mediumhttp://db.tt/VzRUNlC-what's wrong with pink?http://db.tt/xv5HhIx-Bordoand prototype canvas MUThttp://db.tt/BEk8Csh-gonna make a longer onehttp://db.tt/Y01RjLd-Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

On Monday, September 12, 2011 10:34:05 AM UTC-5, Steve D. wrote:

http://db.tt/Y01RjLd - Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish

I like that rackaleur solution for you Hobo bag. It's very elegant.

 

Higher praise than it deserves. But appreciated. It does work, though, exactly as you might hope; the rider facing pockets straddle the strap-restrained rackaleur very nicely. I'm still tempted to slice a couple of slots into the Hobo's vertical strip of leather so that I can thread the strap through it too. But I had no problems with the bag bouncing around at all yesterday. Perhaps because it had about 4 pounds in it. Or perhaps even a pound or so might hold it stable over my improved-trail riding habtitat. So until I have a problem with it, I'm going to leave that leather intact.

 

I confess that the Rackaleur had a inexplicable attraction to me from the first time I saw it. Quirky but functional. In fact, it pushed me over the edge to try the Tallux stem; all of my other stems are Dirt Drops.

 

(VO's assertion that it "might require a little bending" when used stems with rise does not seem practical to me regarding the Dirt Drop; it was going to require a *lot* of bending and is surprisingly resistant to being bent.)

 

It's a rare incident where the similar Nitto product (the "F-16", I think?) did not pull me in at all and still doesn't, yet this admittedly sorta cheesy did and is more functional for me. Even with the jarring look of the black tool dip. Only after I had seen both the Rackaleur and the Tallux did I realize that it should work with my Hobo. You'd think the Hobo would've been the inspiration, not the serendipitous realization. Perhaps I need more sleep.

 

The cockpit I put together yesterday was done in a bit of a rush. I didn't want to defer/shorten my ride. Like The Man has said (I paraphrase): I'll fix the tape job later.

 

Now that I know the Silver bar-ends warrant the additional cockpit in general... I'll fix up its weird cabling, make less-distracting aluminum shims for the F-15 mounts (gotta love front-bag versatility!) and do a real tape/twine job on the hand-grips (eek! there's electrical tape under there!) and replace the brake levers with my beloved Love Levers... eventually! But certainly not before I acquire and install cable couplers. Oh, and brass ferrules. I like those too.

 

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Re: 7 speed: no, I was being facetious. Good luck on the bracket;
let's see the result.

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[Minh]

Funny how this came up, i was riding this weekend (on the quickbeam so
maybe it was more noticeable) and was thinking about how loud index
shifting was on the go-fast riders around me. As i don't have any
bikes with index shifting anymore i had forgetten how loud it is when
you shift down.

As far as being able to shift perfectly, meh, i mis-shift every now
and then, but a little tap to trim it and we're all good. i've given
up on getting my bikes working perfectly mechanically, i save that for
the winter time :)

[Steve D.]

I first saw the rackaleur at the LBS (Counterbalance Bicycles) on the
B-G a few months ago. It had one of VO's boxy bags attached to it. I
thought it was an inexpensive alternative to decaleurs, and I didn't
want to put a front rack on my Atlantis. And I was really fixated on
getting a boxy-style bag. So much so that I didn't even connect the
idea of using the rackaleur for my boxy until I saw your photo. So, I
went to the LBS yesterday afternoon and swooped on the rackaleur, took
it home, and mounted it on my bike. I found a couple toe-clip straps
hiding out in a box in my garage, and used them to secure the
rackaleur to the head tube. The Hobo fits perfectly on it, and looks
great. This is a nice, inexpensive solution for a handlebar bag;
$30.00. I no longer feel the "need" to get a boxy bag, thereby saving
a few hard-earned ducats in the long run.

I had a similar thought about making a slit in the Hobo to anchor it
to the rackaleur. But decided against it for fear of the bag ripping
over time.

Yeah, at first I thought this was a funky product; kinda odd. But
after seeing how you used it, made a lot of sense, and opened my mind
to it in a Zenish/Rivish way. The elegance of it all is that it's a
simple, inexpensive, and versatile solution for stabilizing my Hobo
bag. If I ever get an AHH, it will be easy to switch off between the
two bikes. Perfect!

Anyway, I'm doing my morning ride in a few minutes, and will report
back on how the new setup works.

Cheers,
Steve

On Sep 12, 9:47 am, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> On Monday, September 12, 2011 10:34:05 AM UTC-5, Steve D. wrote:
>

> >http://db.tt/Y01RjLd- Rackaleur, Baggins, and Irish

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Hi, all.

 

My general experience is that indexing works very, very well. But my experience has been almost entirely with SL-BS64 (Ultegra) 8-speed shifters (the "bar-con", sometimes bar-end but sometimes on thumbies) with a 7-speed IRD freewheel. I've also used SL-BS64 shifters with Shimano-patible 8-speed cassettes. And I've used such cassettes with Alivio and Altus brifters. Shifting performance is uniformly excellent. Not racy fast. But very stable and very effective (i.e. stays in alignment, hits the gear virtually every time, lands in very good alignment (no chattering in back)).

 

Does anybody here use other modern index "arrangements", like STI or higher numbers of cogs or other brifters? If so, are those systems more "finicky"? Like, do they require regular re-alignment? miss gears? seem hard to control? shift slowly?

 

I see the quiet/smooth/engaging/moral appeal of Silver (and presumably some other) friction shifters.

 

So far, though, I don't see a significant "practical" or "functional" reason to pursue friction shifting other than addressing/anticipating compatibility or rare mechanical issues. Anybody have one?

 

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

who will maintain at least one friction cockpit, for True Joy and compatibility/mechanical issues

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 15:16 -0700, Thomas Lynn Skean wrote:
> Does anybody here use other modern index "arrangements", like STI or
> higher numbers of cogs or other brifters? If so, are those systems
> more "finicky"? Like, do they require regular re-alignment? miss
> gears? seem hard to control? shift slowly?

I have several - lots - of bikes that have 9 speed indexed drive trains
with Shimano indexed bar end shifters. They aren't finicky at all, and
do not require regular re-alignment. Never miss gears, never seem hard
to control, and shift very nicely indeed.

Nothing with brifters, nothing 10 or above.

[James Warren]

Ditto!

Pretty much my favorite all-time shifting system.

On Sep 13, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

>
>
> I have several - lots - of bikes that have 9 speed indexed drive trains
> with Shimano indexed bar end shifters. They aren't finicky at all, and
> do not require regular re-alignment. Never miss gears, never seem hard
> to control, and shift very nicely indeed.
>
> Nothing with brifters, nothing 10 or above.
>
>
>

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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

[dougP]

Thomas:

One of my touring buds (with decades of experience) has 9 speed STI on
both his go-fast (a 20 year old, lugged steel custom Lighthouse) and
his REI Randonnee touring bike, both with triples. Both function
perfectly. He recently fitted the Lighthouse with a wide(r) range
cassette to get a 32 low. Amazingly, the Ultegra RD handles it
fine.

Personally, I'm a bar end guy that's always on the trailing edge of
any technology. The only downside I can see to STI (except the cost)
is damaging one on tour outside of North America or Europe. I rode a
rental bike for a week with 10 speed STI and a road triple. The
system worked perfectly. I did get a bit tired of shifting multiple
times to get by all the 1 tooth jumps in back, but that's due to the
mfgs choice of cogs, not the shifters.

dougP

On Sep 13, 3:16 pm, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[rob markwardt]

I think you get used to what you use. I use silvers on a couple
bikes...bikes I ride all the time...8 and 9 speed, and I can move the
levers into a specific gear without a thought. No fussing, no
figiting. I honestly can't imagine index being any more precise or
quicker...could be though. I also have bikes with Campy and Simplex
downtube shifters. I'm ok on those bikes but I still experience
occasional grinding. I don't ride these bikes too often. I'm
guessing if I rode them more often the grinding would go away.

My biggest beef with index is the inability to trim (on some
brands?). On STP this summer I couldn't believe the number bikes I
passed/was passed by that were rubbing chain. Even slightly would be
enough to drive me insane but there were literally hundreds that
wouldn't/couldn't trim the deraillers to avoid the noise. Meanwhile,
on my 40 year old Paramount, with the help of my Suntour barends, my
knees probably made more noise than my chain.

Rob

> > compatibility/mechanical issues- Hide quoted text -

[Patrick in VT]

On Sep 13, 6:16 pm, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Does anybody here use other modern index "arrangements", like STI or higher
> numbers of cogs or other brifters? If so, are those systems more "finicky"?
> Like, do they require regular re-alignment? miss gears? seem hard to
> control? shift slowly?

I use Campy 10spd on my road/cx bikes - it's the smoothest, quietest
drivetrain i've ever ridden. I also mate those 10spd brifters with a
shimano 8spd cassette/shimano rear mech (i.e. the "shimergo"
drivetrain), which works great. it's been an easy, low maintenance
set up for me and it's subjected to more stress than any other
drivetrain I run.

Still, I love 9spd dura ace indexing downtube shifters - just some
about the "click/pop" super positive engagement on those. and I
really dig Deore XT 7spd thumbies. I have a soft spot for friction
too. The new stuff works. The old stuff works. I enjoy riding both,
but the they have their place depending on the bike.

[EricP]

Funny. Because of this discussion, decided to move the little lever
on my Shimano 8 speed clickers to friction for the commute into work
this morning. As before, it works fine. No problems with it. In
fact, could argue it operates a bit smoother than the Silver shifters
on my Sam Hillborne. But that's my preference and judgement, not an
absolute statement of fact.

Then again, when the weather turns nasty then will go back to
indexing. Just one less thing to think about during winter.

Have to admit, my lack of shifting style does play a part. Will
undershift and then nudge to the gear rather than overshift and trim
back.

And for full disclosure - I do drive a car with automatic
transmission. And have never worked on, let alone ridden, a
motorcycle (see other thread for that reference.)

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[Horace]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 6:25 AM, Patrick in VT <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Still, I love 9spd dura ace indexing downtube shifters - just some
> about the "click/pop" super positive engagement on those.

These are excellent. I put them on my Romulus years back and I swore
if they gave me the least bit of trouble, I'd go back to friction. But
they've been great.

[stevep33]

Recently switched to 9sp 7700 Dura Ace downtube indexed shifters after
a long time using Silver friction dt shifters. Maybe I'm getting lazy,
but I'm pretty happy with the result particularly when off-road.
The indexed shifters shift perfectly every time. It turns out that
you can also use current (10 speed) Dura Ace derailleurs to index
nicely on a 9 speed cassette with a 9sp shifter.

My only small complaint is that the indexing makes a loud click with
each gear, whereas the friction is almost silent.

[Jim Cloud]

I have friction shifters on one of my bikes, and indexed shifters (the
old SunTour Accushift) on my Rivendell Road Standard. I actually
prefer the indexed shifters, just a quick click and the bike is in the
gear with no need to trim or adjust the shift. Maybe I'm lazy, but
the ease of shifting certainly doesn't hold any problems for me.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

[islaysteve]

This thread is 30 posts long, so WTH, I'll weigh in with my 2 cents.  STI brake-shift levers pretty much (hard to find the right words) brought back my cycling life in 1995.  Been riding them ever since, mostly the very same components (105-8), now installed on my new-to-me Riv.  I won't give them up until you pry them from my cold, dead hands.  I'm glad to see the balance and variety of experiences expressed here.  Steve