Re: [RBW] New "budget" Riv in Summer 2013?

[Brian Hanson]

Just keep saving - by then you might find yourself with enough for a Hunqapillar.  Awesome bike that one...

Brian

Seattle, WA

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 9:13 AM, clamp...@cox.net <clamp...@cox.net> wrote:

I was looking at Rivendell's bike picker feature and under the  price range of the San Marcos, Hillborne and Betty Foy, there is a super heavy duty tour bike listed for the Summer of 2013!   I haven't seen this mentioned here or in the blog but it's got me excited!!   I've had my eye on a Hunqapillar for some time but budgetary constraints make it unlikely I'll ever get one.  If RBW comes out with a budget Hunqa, which is what this sounds like, then I will be really interested! 

 

 

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[charlie]

Oh me too.........I've been vexed over the decision to downsize and sell my Simplone and Hillborne then convert my parts off my Surly Trucker to an Atlantis or a 'Hunk' but I'm not totally sold on the 54cm size Hunk not wanting so much seat post sticking up etc. and I like the double top tubes of the Hillborne but desire a Riv frame to replace my Trucker but with clearances for wider tires and really stout so I can ride it loaded at my weight and still use it as a commuter/all purpose machine with lights etc. but lugged (unlike my Trucker) which I like fit wise and all.  Two G's for an Atlantis is a tough pill to swallow but something like it would be a close match to my Trucker as far as parts and fit. Guess you can't please all the people all the time and Riv has quite a few models. We cyclist's can be a picky bunch........

[Mike]

On Sep 2, 9:13 am, "clampe1...@cox.net" <clampe1...@cox.net> wrote:
> there is a super heavy duty tour bike listed for the Summer of 2013!

This is good and interesting news. I wonder if Riv will finally
produce a tig welded frame. Wasn't there mention a while back of Keven
and Dave designing a bike? I think so.

There have been times when I've lusted for a Riv touring frame and
then other times when I've that my LHT could handle all my bike needs--
touring, commuting, randonneuring and just riding.

mike

[James Warren]

I would like it if this bike were made ready for disc brakes. Mechanical ones.

[Peter Morgano]

Aren't there a decent amount of tig welded-disc brake bikes out there right now? Good cantis or v brakes have the power of disc brakes anyway I have found, although discs are easier to set up. I hate the idea of a tig welded rivendell, what is the point? I believe one of rivendells mottos is "always lugged, always steel"

On Sep 3, 2012 5:53 PM, "James Warren" <jimcw...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I would like it if this bike were made ready for disc brakes. Mechanical ones.

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[Matt Beebe]

I remember reading on the blug about this frame about year ago(?) but can't find the post.    Definitely intriguing whenever a new model is in the pipeline.   It's fun to watch the design process unfold and I'm glad Riv shares the process in the RR and blug to the extent they do.

> This is good and interesting news. I wonder if Riv will finally
> produce a tig welded frame. "

I'm pretty sure the blug post said it wouldn't be tigged-    if it's Rivendell it must have lugs.. which makes pricing tough, but they won't veer from lugs.

[James Warren]

Well, I didn't mention the issue of lugged versus tig, because I expect that any Rivendell will be lugged.

And now that you bring it up, I'll point out that a beautiful lugged bike with disc brakes would be pretty cool and a bit unique.

I'm not sure if the brakes would complicate fender attaching at the dropouts, but at the fork crown and seatstay bridge, things would be a bit more free.

James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- Remember, my friends, it is better to feel fast than to be fast.

[lungimsam]

Tig welds!?!?!? (Rivendell Reader/Brooks Newsletter hits study floor. Pipe tumbles from mouth. Rises from studded leather chair, forefinger extended to ceiling).

(Incredulous) Perish the thought! Tut, tut...(clears throat, trying to settle self with dignity).

 

Don't give RBW any bright ideas.

Let them know we'll settle for nothing less from them than lugs, lugs, lugs (at least I won't).

I am sure they can do a budget with lugs.

Weren't there quality, affordable lugged steel bikes ~1960-1980? : )

 

 

[Steve Palincsar]

Here's the headbadge for that TIGged Rivendell:

[Lyle Bogart]

Ha! I'd actually buy that headbadge (but not the TIGged Riv. . . ), presuming the usual gorgeous cloisonné work!

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[Leslie]

Didn't you read the interview w/ Grant, regarding his Yosemite thoughts?
http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue32/p76-77.html

[Dave]

Unbeatable idea!

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[Michael_S]

a fat tire tourer! ... sounds like a winner to me. Hopefully with lugs and cantilever brakes.

 And maybe  in a size I want to buy, as I'm between sizes on the Hunqapillar, 54 too small for me ( I don't like tall stems and posts) , 58 too big in standover. 

Looking forward to this one.

~mike

Carlsbad, Ca 

[Ginz]

I believe that pigs would sooner fly for lugs than disc brakes. Hope
you like cantis!

[Joe Bernard]

An ugly Rivendell? That just doesn't seem right.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Peter Morgano]

Agreed, there are only beautiful new ones and beautiful ones with lovely beausage.

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Seems like a great idea, since the Bombadil f/f is $3k, and the intended-budget-Bomba Hunqapillar isn't exactly an inexpensive alternative at $1875. I know they are great frames that cost what great frames cost, but it's gotta be a tough sell for a lot of potential buyers looking at a complete bike price of at least $4k.

Lugs? Of course! A lugless Rivendell doesn't make any sense at all. Disc-brakes? I seem to recall some early ruminations that the Bomba would be disc-compatible. Having this new frame with a disc option and with thread-in canti-posts may broaden the appeal. Retro-purists could always just get one of the other models if the superfluous disc mounts are deemed too offensive.

In any case, whatever it turns out to be: I like it!

[jimD]

Steve,
Ha!
This gets my vote as the post of week.
I wouldn't be interested in a non lugged Riv UNLESS it had this head badge.
Then I'd be all over that puppy,…er pig, I guess.
Thanks,
JimD
On Sep 3, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

> <snip>

> Here's the headbadge for that TIGged Rivendell:
>

> <Flying Pig.jpg>

>
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[Peter Pesce]

Soma sells their fancy lugged Stanyan for $700 ish, so I'd guess thats about as cheap as lugs can get. Below that youre in a very crowded market. Both Soma and Surly sell very sensible frames at the 4-600 price point.

Pete (with a Soma Double Cross Disc on order to replace my LHT) in CT

[charlie]

Me too on the 54cm and 58 cm 'Hunk' sizing......the 58cm would have been fine in a non up sloping frame but I think more than slightly too tall for me otherwise with bigger tires.

[Peter Morgano]

Ah we all have our wants. I wanted a rivendell with a 59cm non sloping top tube like a 61cm atlantis but in 650b to reduce stand over. Something like a 58cm AHH but with clearance for 60s. I feel I am in custom range there though unfortunately.

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[lungimsam]

They could call the Tig-ged riv the "Tig-Pig".

[Peter Morgano]

They should do all sizes in 650b,the choice of a new generation...at least for a decade, haha.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:56 PM, redsydude <thau...@q.com> wrote:

Throughout this 2011 interview and Q/A are comments about some of the original conceptions for this bike.

http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2772-bootstrapped-profitable-proud-rivendell

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[Joe Bernard]

Agreed! I guess I'll hold on to my orphaned 650B wheels for a while and see what's next from Rivendell.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[James Warren]

Is the budget Riv of Summer 2013, AKA the less expensive fat tire tourer, the same bike as the stealthy, inexpensive-looking bike for cities that they have talked about.

 

I have gotten the impression that these are two separate models that are on the horizon. The latter I've heard mentioned repeatedly for a while. The former, AKA the less expensive fat tire tourer, is something I don't think I had heard about before last week when the OP mentioned it on this list.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Miller Rosales
Sent: Sep 3, 2012 8:40 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: New "budget" Riv in Summer 2013?

They've been hinting towards this bike for a while, I really can't wait to see some preliminary shots of it! As a college student, this sounds like what I've been waiting for. A true lugged beauty (to the rider), that I can lock on campus without nervously twitching every few moments. Plus, that plush and smooth Riv ride we all love. This is also conveniently timed right after my graduation, so what a great present I can indulge in, and take it with me to Grad school! Great job, Rivendell, I can't wait to see what you come up.

Ride on,

Chris

On Monday, September 3, 2012 8:13:01 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

Ah we all have our wants. I wanted a rivendell with a 59cm non sloping top tube like a 61cm atlantis but in 650b to reduce stand over. Something like a 58cm AHH but with clearance for 60s. I feel I am in custom range there though unfortunately.

On Sep 3, 2012 10:52 PM, "charlie" <cl_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Me too on the 54cm and 58 cm 'Hunk' sizing......the 58cm would have been fine in a non up sloping frame but I think more than slightly too tall for me otherwise with bigger tires.

On Monday, September 3, 2012 4:32:15 PM UTC-7, Michael_S wrote:

a fat tire tourer! ... sounds like a winner to me. Hopefully with lugs and cantilever brakes.

 And maybe  in a size I want to buy, as I'm between sizes on the Hunqapillar, 54 too small for me ( I don't like tall stems and posts) , 58 too big in standover. 

Looking forward to this one.

~mike

Carlsbad, Ca 

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 9:13:38 AM UTC-7, Chris Lampe wrote:

I was looking at Rivendell's bike picker feature and under the  price range of the San Marcos, Hillborne and Betty Foy, there is a super heavy duty tour bike listed for the Summer of 2013!   I haven't seen this mentioned here or in the blog but it's got me excited!!   I've had my eye on a Hunqapillar for some time but budgetary constraints make it unlikely I'll ever get one.  If RBW comes out with a budget Hunqa, which is what this sounds like, then I will be really interested! 

 

 

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[Montclair BobbyB]

Or hydraulic brakes... I've been riding both cable and hydraulic disc brakes for years, and I'm here to tell you, hydraulic Shimano's (the older style) are the bee's knees... I've never had issues with busted brake lines or poor performance... They're easy to maintain and super dependable, way more dependable than rim brakes!  And even the best-adjusted cable-actuated disc brakes can't come close to the hydraulics.  The price has come way down on hydraulic brakes... there are few reasons left to go with cable discs... I've been running them on my mountain bikes for years in all kinds of rought weather conditions (including ice and snow).  THEY STOP in all kinds of weather!

I'd love to see a disc version Rivendell...although I fear it would require a beefier fork (for the forces applied to the lower section of the fork).  This might be a challenge to make a beefier fork that looks elegant.  Then again, I'll bet it's possible to preserve the beauty in a disc version.. Wes Williams (for example) makes a beautifully curved 29er disc fork (the Willits WOW).   I love the look of rim brakes, but performance wise there's simply no contest between rim and disc brakes.

Peace,

BB

[Reid]

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 9:13:38 AM UTC-7, Chris Lampe wrote:

I was looking at Rivendell's bike picker feature and under the  price range of the San Marcos, Hillborne and Betty Foy, there is a super heavy duty tour bike listed for the Summer of 2013!   

 

 

Erm, sorry for being so dense, but even though the "bike picker feature" is probably right in front of me on the Riv site, can someone point me to it?

 

Yours in buffudlement,

 

Reid

[Leslie]

http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=337

[Reid]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:26:02 PM UTC-7, Leslie wrote:

http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=337

 

Thanks, Leslie. So that's it for info on the fat tire tourer??? Just one short line??? Harrumph.

 

Reid

[Tony Lockhart]

I agree, the Stanyan is around the $700 mark. I'm not sure if anyone else has looked around, but you can find a San Marcos in the low $700's. So, I'll cross my fingers that Riv puts out a frame around that price point.

Anyone in here familiar with cost-saving strategies with frame building? I imagine that tig welding the seat post lug would save quite a bit of time, labor, and casting because it'd be easy to bind all of the tubes together. I admit that it would be weird to see a partially lugged Riv, however a tigged BB shell or seat post lug seems like a quick and dirty way to cut costs.

[bingomck]

Montclair Bobby

Check out the Singular Peregrine if you want an example of a nice looking, lugged steel disc frame. Pretty affordable too if you can find one (if I recall only 1 US dealer). No idea how they ride, and I doubt like a Riv, but good looking.

[Peter Pesce]

I've never used any disc brakes, so I cant comment on performance, but one advantage of cable discs is that you can use any normal, standard-pull brake lever - brifter, mtb, inverse, guidonnet, etc.. This is why the 'cross and road disc bikes now hitting the shows use mostly cable discs. This will eventually change, of course, as road discs seem to be the Next Big Thing that Trekalized will push on the road riding masses, so hydraulic STI levers cant be too far off. For me, however, part of the Riv ethos is the idea that you can freely mix and match parts to suit. I've already messed this up a bit for myself with V-brakes, but at least you can find a lever that is convertible from short to long pull. Not sure if there is a lever than can convert from hydraulic to cable.

Another HUGE advantage to disc brakes, for the Riv and Bob folks, is you can use any wheel size your heart desires! As long as the frame has the right clearances, (and what Riv frame wouldn't?), you could pick 700c, 650b or even 26 at will. Sure, fender mounting could be tricky, but it's a lot easier to find fender mounting work-arounds than it is to move canti bosses.

-Pete in CT

[Jeremy Till]

That's not exactly true.  Unless specifically noted, most cable-actuated disk brakes are set up for long cable pull, the same as v-brakes and are only compatible with long-pull levers.  There are a few short-pull specific calipers, such as a couple of models of the Avid "BB" range that specifically have a "road" version.  I think a couple of other manufacturers (Formula, Tektro) are starting to come out with short-pull road models (those are probably what you're seeing on disc cross bikes), but they are still relatively thin on the ground. 

The current crop of cross and road bikes use cable discs mostly because nobody's come out with a hydraulic drop-bar lever yet, and any of the conversion systems (I've seen one involving cable-actuated master cylinders under the stem) don't quite seem refined enough yet.  However, at Eurobike this past week Colnago was showing off disc road bikes with a hydraulic, electronic brifter (for either Campy EPS or Shimano Di2) they had designed with Formula.

[Peter Morgano]

Hmm, Hydraulic, Electric and Campy make me thinks it most likely cost more than I paid for my whole Bombadil. I love fiddly things so it sounds up my alley, personally. I dont really like V-brakes but wasnt the whole point them that they took little effort to set up and had good power, outside of single track how much braking power do people need for 90% of the total useage of the bike? I think Rivendell usually errs on the side of easy to set up with minimal fiddling. I would hate to be on day 2 of a tour and have my hydraulic master cylinder fail and have to get a ride to the LBS for an afternoon of work whereas a snapped/frayed brake cable would take minutes to replace.

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[Peter Pesce]

Thanks for the correction! Discs aren't really my forte... obviously!

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

It seems moderately necessary to point out that there's nothing specific to a frame that's made for hydraulic disc brakes that is different than on a frame made for cable disc brakes. Therefore, IF Riv makes a bike for disc brakes, which seems only a tiny bit likely IMO, there's no need for any of us to be forced into one type of brake or another.

I like hydraulic brakes. I've been using several models of Avid hydraulics for about 3 years now, and I've never had one single problem with them. They are, for all practical purposes, self-adjusting and never seem to make any superfluous noise. It is true, however, that using hydraulic brakes does limit brake lever options. Think of the hydraulic brake/lever as a single unit, rather than the mix and match experience of cable-actuated systems. This is a mix-and-match-centric group, I realize.

[Matthew J]

Seems to me for a budget bike that is almost certainly would be heavier than the upmarket Rivs, discs will mean extra weight and expense with little benefit for most riders.

 

Most people ride on pavement or hard pack trails and then usually when the weather is fine.  In those conditions, decent rim brakes provide all the stopping power any rider will ever need. Some ride on pavement in inclement weather where discs have some advantages over rims.  But not so much that there is a screaming need for discs.

 

Discs are markedly better off road and on long distance adventure touring.  Neither Riv's niche. 

[Reid]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:39:41 PM UTC-7, Tony Lockhart wrote:

... you can find a San Marcos in the low $700's. So, I'll cross my fingers that Riv puts out a frame around that price point.

 

Yes, I'm a Riv snob. I want a Riv name on the bike, so just come up with a name and headbadge for a Riv-branded San Marcos and there's a low cost solution.

 

Reid

[ascpgh]

The lever limitations of road discs are the buzz kill; no hydraulic options, mechanical options with the V-brake cable pull ratio. The Avid BB-5 road is a solution to road brake lever pull, giving Trek the capability to put discs on their STI bikes. A close look at the BB-5 caliper shows how the unit was adapted to be operated by road levers by shortening the actuating bell crank at the far end of the cable. That resolves the cable movement issues but at an exchange of the force necessary for any stopping task. It also limits the range of motion of that little crank arm before the mechanical advantage is lost and you have to make an adjustment.

For my all-weather commuter I chose the rarer road levers with V-pull ratio and Avid BB-7s. I haven't had the opportunity to experiment with all kinds of disc brakes but I can say the scariest bike experience I have had in decades was a two mile descent of a two lane road in an absolute downpour that rendered my rim brakes nearly useless at the end of Bike Pittsburgh last month. I wouldn't have set out on the 65mile ride on my Rambouillet had it been coming down like that first thing in the morning, it just ended up that way and made me imagine that descent on my commuter once I was off the Mount Washington.

[ascpgh]

Whoops, managed "send" before signed;

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

[Montclair BobbyB]

Yeah, the Peregrine is a cool idea, and very beautiful... a similar Riv version would be even beautifuler...

The world may not be quite ready for hydraulic disc brakes on drop bar bikes, but that needs to change... Quick stopping ability on a bike is far too important. Shimano makes a fine hydraulic brifter for upright bars, but they need to take this idea a step further and adapt it to drop bars. I run only hydraulic discs on my mountain bikes (strictly for offroad use), but I've also built up 2 Salsa Fargos primarily for road use with hydraulic brifters on (upright) H-bars. The only way to describe them would be 'high performance bliss'... they're simply the best, and they instill confidence with their quick stopping power in all conditions.  I love my cantis and v-brakes, but in truth they're a compromise... they're adequate, but they'll never come close to the performance of hydraulic discs.  

I don't love my Bomba and S1 any less because they have V-brakes, but if Riv offered a disc version, I'd seriously consider trading up for that.

Peace,
BB

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

It's certainly true that there's seldom, if ever, a "screaming need for discs". But we're pretty far down the road past "screaming need" for ANY of the gadgetry we chat about in this forum. I personally know a number of people who do not consider worthwhile any bike innovation that isn't included on a 1950s English 3sp. I've ridden old 3-speeds plenty, and I see the charm, but occasionally I think the technologies developed over the ensuing half-century have earned a place in my 21st Century bicycle-centric life.

IMO, a sturdy, fat-tire Riv with capability to handle BOTH cantilevers/v-brakes and discs would be a neat thing - sort of a prettier functional-equivalent to the Surly Troll or Ogre. I think it would broaden the appeal to potential customers who appreciate Riv's aesthetic stylings and general approach, but aren't committed to using the same types of parts mountain bikers were stuck with 25 years ago. Obviously, the true retro connoisseurs will scoff at the superfluous disc brake tabs they'd never use in a million years, but the scoffers will be offset by those who'll embrace the added versatility. I count myself among the "embracers of versatility", by the way.

I'm not saying disc brakes are 100% necessary at all, but some concession to modernity and, more importantly, diversity in the product line, would seem to be a good thing for Riv. Otherwise, it seems like we'll have another heavy-duty Riv frame that competes for the same seemingly limited pool of customers who are considering the Atlantis, Hunqapillar, Bombadil, Hillborne, etc. Something as simple as disc tabs would be a standout among the excellent, but overlapping frames that are already available, and would, I think, make a splash among a whole new pool of potential customers.

[Matthew J]

>IMO, a sturdy, fat-tire Riv with capability to handle BOTH cantilevers/v-brakes and discs would be a neat thing - sort of a prettier

> functional-equivalent to the Surly Troll or Ogre. I think it would broaden the appeal to potential customers who appreciate Riv's

>aesthetic stylings and general approach, but aren't committed to using the same types of parts mountain bikers were stuck with 25 >years ago. Obviously, the true retro connoisseurs will scoff at the superfluous disc brake tabs they'd never use in a million years, but >the scoffers will be offset by those who'll embrace the added versatility. I count myself among the "embracers of versatility", by the

> way.


A convincing argument.  Versatility is good.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Jim -- curious if, when saying you like hydraulics, whether that means you don't particularly like mechanicals; and if so, why not. I've used older Avid BB7 mechanicals, both road and mountain versions. The road version was useless even with absolutely unflexing housing (this was special stuff that was wound like indexing shifter cable housing -- meant for brakes) and 180 mm discs. The mountain version seems to work well enough: easy to set up, powerful is the housing is not flexy (I find that the front is fine, not as good as Vs but perfectly adequate; the rear, with five feet of bulk housing, not so good); modulation is adequate but not great; and that disks bend easily and annoyingly. Tektro V brake levers.

In short, I wonder if there are tricks to set up mechanicals that I don't know (and would like to know) or if disks have to be hydraulic to be excellent. (The one time I tried a neighbor's bike with hydraulics I almost sent myself over the bar).

Also, if anyone has any tips about setting up Tektro interrupters for V brakes (these have red knobs that don't seem to accompish anything when you turn them) I'd be grateful to learn them. While my Tektro drop levers pull hard before coming anywhere near close to the bar, the interrupters are spongy and almost bottom out before stopping.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

So, the Avid "road" lever mechanical disk is the BB5? At any rate, ascpgh and so forth (please include name!) confirms my experience that they aren't worth -- well, pick a noun denominating bulk of little value.

I like disks because I switch between rims of 44 mm and 27 mm outside width; also, tho' we don't get much rain here, when we do, it combines with the ominipresent dust and fine sand to make a grinding fluid that will score your rims very quickly. 

Just wish I could figure out how to adjust those Tektro V-brake interrupters.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 5:54 AM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

The lever limitations of road discs are the buzz kill; no hydraulic options, mechanical options with the V-brake cable pull ratio. The Avid BB-5 road is a solution to road brake lever pull, giving Trek the capability to put discs on their STI bikes. A close look at the BB-5 caliper shows how the unit was adapted to be operated by road levers by shortening the actuating bell crank at the far end of the cable. That resolves the cable movement issues but at an exchange of the force necessary for any stopping task. It also limits the range of motion of that little crank arm before the mechanical advantage is lost and you have to make an adjustment.

For my all-weather commuter I chose the rarer road levers with V-pull ratio and Avid BB-7s. I haven't had the opportunity to experiment with all kinds of disc brakes but I can say the scariest bike experience I have had in decades was a two mile descent of a two lane road in an absolute downpour that rendered my rim brakes nearly useless at the end of Bike Pittsburgh last month. I wouldn't have set out on the 65mile ride on my Rambouillet had it been coming down like that first thing in the morning, it just ended up that way and made me imagine that descent on my commuter once I was off the Mount Washington.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

But you don't need disks, hydraulic or mechanical, for perfect stopping! IME V's are wonderfully strong and IRD cantis are even better, IME (if someone besides me sets them up) -- both better than BB7s. IMO, the advantages of disks lie elswhere.

Still: a Riv that can take 65 mm tires, fenders and mud, with disks ... man, oh man!

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[Peter Morgano]

Patrick, I use interrupters on my bombadil with cantis, I am no kind of expert on them but will tell you what I found. To the best of my knowledge they work by compressing the housing instead of pulling on the cable so if you are using too long of a length of housing or cheap housing it might just go "smush" instead of feeling crisp like you are looking for.  Not sure if this has already been considered but just thought I would throw it out there.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks; I am pretty sure you are right to the extent that, ceteris paribus, good housing = better braking. In fact, on my Fargo the front (shorter housing: 3' instead of 5') does work better than the rear. You are also right about compressing the housing -- tho' in the end it comes down to the same thing: compressing the housing requires pulling the cable, and vv. 

Any other ideas, before I invest in expensive housing?

[Jim Mather]

I'm not the Jim you asked, but I'll chime in anyway. I've used both mechanical and hydraulic. I thought the mechanical were quite easy to set up (so I don't have any secrets, I just followed the instructions), and I thought they stopped as well as a good v-brake. But when it comes to stopping power, hydraulics have way more than any v- or canti. There are really steep fire roads and trails around Mt. Diablo where I ride, and there are plenty of steep pitches where Paul cantis only slow me down, but my 200mm front hydraulic can bring me to a short, well modulated stop. I weigh 220, and that makes a difference in stopping requirements, but the hydraulics add a level of confidence that no mechanical brake can. Of course, some times it's fun to test my limits, which is why I ride both kinds of brakes.

I hope the new Riv can take discs too.

jim m
wc ca

[dougP]

This thread started out talking about a "budget Riv...". I realize
it's hard to see how a few extra tabs, etc., to handle discs could
impact the cost too much, and of course Rivs come with plenty of ways
to hang on racks & fenders. However, I heard Dave Moulton speak
(years ago when he was still building frames) and he made the point
that it was difficult to justify to his customers the additional cost
for adding various eyelets, rack mounts, etc., that tourists demand &
racers don't. More fiddly bits can really up the cost a surprising
amount.

If Grant decided to add disc brake fittings, I would expect it to be
on the $2,000 frames, esp. the Atlantis & Bombadil. I've only ridden
disc braked bikes a couple of times and was impressed. My Atlantis
now has V-brakes (replaced Tektro 720 cantis) which I like a lot but
would go for a disc brake option. Braking changes a lot when you load
up the bike with its own weight & go whistling down long hills.

Of course, Riv went thru a big inventory reduction end of last year,
so I wouldn't look for them to embrace stocking yet another kind of
hub, brake, levers, etc., plus the frame redesign work to offer
discs. In any case, it's always fun to speculate The Next Big
Thing.

dougP

On Sep 6, 10:29 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>>> Mechanical ones.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I have been scolded for discussing such heresy in the past, but the most obvious cost savings I can think of for Riv frames would be to switch from threaded to threadless steerers. With threadless, one fork fits all frames. With threaded, each frame size takes a different fork. This means extra forks must be stocked in each size for warranty replacements, etc, plus, I assume, making 4 or 5 different forks in smaller quantities is more expensive than making one fork in a larger quantity. Obviously, I don't know how the threaded-fork penalty compares to the other costs in frame production, but I wouldn't be surprised if it adds $100+ to each frameset at the retail level. I don't have experience with 2TT or diagonal tube frames, but I do have experience to suggest a 1-1/8" threadless system feels MUCH sturdier under load than does a bike with a 1" threaded system on otherwise similar frames.

As for disc brakes, I prefer the way hydraulics feel and self-adjust, but sometimes sacrificing the drop bar is too much, so I go mechanical. The good ones all work, when set up properly.

[Peter Morgano]

Threadless forks are ugly IMO and once they are cut cannot be adjusted. With an allen wrench I can re-adjust my setup as many times as I want, worth a hundred bucks over the life of a bike. 

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[ted]

It may be a cost saver as you suspect, but I hope they never go that
route.
I value the easy upping and downing of a quill stem, and not being
bound to earlier choices by having cut a threadless steerer tube.
Threaded forks and quill stems are one of the differentiators that
make RBW a company I am glad is in business.
Other companies are already making good bikes at lower price points,
so if you want to choose a bike made with some more economical methods
(e.g. threadless, tig welded, ...) choose one of them and be happy.
(naturally we are overlooking the threadless option on the Rodeo,
which seems to be a rare concession to gram counters, inner racer
aversion to otherness, and broader selection of available stems)

I don't mean to be scolding. I just like what RBW does, and I would
rather they stay with it than get more like other companies.

On Sep 6, 4:45 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>

[William]

" I have been scolded for discussing such heresy in the past, but the most obvious cost savings I can think of for Riv frames would be to switch from threaded to threadless steerers. With threadless, one fork fits all"

Remember that's not quite as helpful for Rivs because Rivs come with different wheel sizes.  For example, if Betty Foy had a threadless fork, we'd go from 4 sizes to 3.  Not that big a help.  Sam would go from 5 to 2, so that maybe would help some.  The high end frames are made to order anyway.  

[Michael_S]

Doug, I've ridden the BB7 road cable disc and a bunch of hydraulics in my time. For technical downhill rides on a suspended bike the hydraulics are worth every penny. I would never ever build a rigid bike with cable discs as they don't offer any real advantage and many disadvantages. ( weight/complexity). 

Grant knows his niche, and it's not disc brakes.  It's steel, nice lugs, fat tires, cool paint jobs and a threaded headset. I would expect him to follow that guideline. Most of us in this group are here exactly because of those attributes.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Reid]

Oops, yes. Just dreaming of what fits my needs! Certainly the less-expensive "heavy duty tour bike" that started this thread would be a great addition. I'm just thinking that for us bantam weights, a low cost replacement for the Romulus would be so easy to do, seeing as how the San Marcos already exists. Basically no development costs. Back to my dreams.

 

Reid

On Thursday, September 6, 2012 4:04:32 AM UTC-7, Chris Lampe wrote:

I think the San Marcos is a great idea and a great looking bike but Grant has emphasized that it's a light framed road bike.  I'm a super clydesdale and need something a bit stouter and currently, Rivendell doesn't have a budget bike for folks like me.  I'm hoping this new bike rectifies that. 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I agree that quill stems are a niche that Riv fills, more or less exclusively, which is no small thing. Obviously, the quill stem has a modest-sized but loyal following, and Grant would be smart to keep filling this niche, as long as it exists, all by himself.

On the other hand, think about demographics. I'm 35 - most cyclists my age or younger have little or no nostalgia for quill stems and threaded steerers, and, in fact, may think a quill looks funny or archaic compared to more familiar threadless systems. If you're over 50, then you probably came of age as a cyclist in the quill stem era, and are not planning to change. But if you're over 50, your bike purchases are likely to slow down in the next 10-20 years, if they haven't already, while people my age and younger are just ramping up the new bike spending. Obviously, this is loose speculation, and individual situations vary. But I think it's safe to say that the number of people who prefer quill stems, and are willing to pay extra to get a frame that takes a quill stem, is shrinking, not growing/stabilizing. I have no stats to back this up, just a limited view from my own knothole.

Of course, Riv already makes a bunch of frame models that take a quill stem. If one frame model out of eight stepped outside the lines a bit, in the interest of cutting costs, making the frame sturdier without a double top tube, and being more accommodating to a much wider variety of contemporary stems, bars, and headsets (more versatility!), I imagine that the result would be broader appeal and new customers. That particular model with the (for example) disc tabs and 1-1/8" threadless steerer might not be the "retro-grouch"  ideal of many on this discussion board, but there are lots of other options for the purists. And there's no reason whatsoever that such a frame couldn't adhere to underlying principles, like good tire/fender clearance, higher handlebars (it can be done with good design in a non-ugly way), and, of course, lovely lugged steel with a cool paintjob.

I started following Riv when there were basically two models: the heavy duty Atlantis, and the lightweight Rambouillet/Romulus/Redwood. It seemed easy to distinguish the two, and I had one of each for awhile. I have enjoyed seeing the proliferation of new models, but frankly, it starts to get a little bewildering to me - imagine how the casual observer must feel when trying to make sense of it! The Hillborne was supposed to be a halfway compromise of the Atlantis and the Hilsen, I think, but those two models weren't altogether dissimilar in terms of tire clearance and general capabilities (the Hilsen moniker replaced the Saluki which was billed as partway between Atlantis and Rambouillet). The Bombadil is the new heavy-duty workhorse offroader (which was the Atlantis role, previously), but the Hunqapillar splits the difference between that and the Atlantis. Do I have that right? How much difference is there to split? There have been discussions of what sets the Roadeo apart from the Hilsen, but it seems the differences are minor. It gets hard to see where one model stops and the next begins. Now to add yet another heavy-duty touring bike to the mix? Is there really a hungry market for a slightly less fancy version of the Hunqapillar that won't cannibalize Hunqapillar sales? Or should this new "budget" model be a substantially different bike that reaches out to a whole new crowd without competing with existing models?

I'm sorry for rambling about all this. Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way that I say stuff that isn't 100% Riv cheerleading (I've been told by two other list participants to put a cork in it over the years), but I'm not trying to damage Riv or criticize anybody for liking what he or she likes. I enjoy the sharing of different ideas. Amazing that there's so much to discuss (ad nauseum) about these machines!

[charlie]

I think the new heavy duty tour bike will be priced in that $1000 range (frame only) and so will sell quite well. I also think the Taiwan frames are working and make it possible to basically re-create the entire line for half what Japanese or American costs will allow. I for one would be interested in something that can essentially replace my tigged touring frame that while decent, isn't lugged but I don't want to spend $1875 - $3000 for it if I can get something comparable for half. While I have some interest in disc brakes (mechanical) because of where I live (Pacific Northwest) I don't think I'd want them on a Rivendell nor would a non quill stem excite me. The quill stem is a major feature of a Rivendell allowing much more options with fit and is precisely why I ended up with two currently. The younger generation is coming up and they need to be schooled on the benefits of doing it the Rivendell way.  

On Sunday, September 2, 2012 9:13:38 AM UTC-7, Chris Lampe wrote:

I was looking at Rivendell's bike picker feature and under the  price range of the San Marcos, Hillborne and Betty Foy, there is a super heavy duty tour bike listed for the Summer of 2013!   I haven't seen this mentioned here or in the blog but it's got me excited!!   I've had my eye on a Hunqapillar for some time but budgetary constraints make it unlikely I'll ever get one.  If RBW comes out with a budget Hunqa, which is what this sounds like, then I will be really interested! 

 

 

[islaysteve]

Jim, I appreciate your comments and would definitely not ask you to put a cork in it!  Thank you for sharing your thoughts as a long-time Riv owner/rider and a bicycle dealer.  I agree with your logic, and share some of your bewilderment at the current Riv product line.  I wouldn't buy the threadless version of a Riv, but then I fit right into the demographic that you describe (the slowing-down one).  Keep the comments coming.  Cheers, Steve

[Jeremy Till]

I agree that the product line can be somewhat confusing, but it makes sense if you think of it as two separate lines (lower-cost and fancy), each with three models varying from road-y to offroad-y:

Low cost: San Marcos-- Hillborne-- Hunqapillar
Fancy: Roadeo-- Homer-- Bombadil

And then there are two unique models which don't fit quite into either: Betty Foy and Atlantis, although you could argue that the Atlantis would slot into the fancy line-up between Homer and Bombadil.  I think it's just there because it's a "forever" bike that Riv would never want to stop production of. 

Now, it's my belief that this is the intention of the current lineup, but because juggling production timing can be difficult (and hence sometimes they even need to source the lower-cost frames from Waterford), and because a lot of people still opt for the good parts on the cheaper frames (has anybody really gone for the microshift option?), both lines end up being much closer in cost than was probably the original intention. 

I would agree that adding disc brakes and threadless headsets would instantly make Rivendells palatable to a much wider set of riders, but Rivendell only exists because they've been making a stand for years against the prevailing market trends, and part of that is not just making the bikes but putting in the time and effort to educate people about the choices that go into a Rivendell bike, and in that sense to create their own market.  Hence the old readers, the old print catalog, the current bulkier-than-average copy for each and every product on the webpage, the Blug, and of course, Just Ride.  And why people like us sit around and spend hours discussing these bikes.  I say stick to their guns and continue the model that's brought them this far.

[Seth Vidal]

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Dan Abelson <d...@abelsons.net> wrote:
> I am with Jim on the threadless headsets. I have two rivs that I love but if
> I could change one thing it would be to go threadless. It would offer a much
> wider variety of handlebar choices, I find it easier to adjust the headset,
> and it is stiffer, and more headsets are available, and I like being able to
> remove the bars without unwrapping the tape.
>

Wider variety of handlebar choices? quill stems don't limit you there.

Get one of the nitto or VO threaded->threadless quills and then use
whatever you want.

Then you get selection of handlebars, poptop stems AND you can move up
and down as much as you want.

That's the versatility of threaded, imo. You can't do that with
threadless, you're just stuck.

-sv

[Jim Mather]

Just so everyone knows, the threadless barrier at Riv was broken by
some but not all Legolas'. Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/6922766182/in/pool-legolas
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20986098@N04/6773347072/in/pool-legolas/

The Roadeo is also offered with either:
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-roadeo.htm

jim m
wc ca

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Dan Abelson <d...@abelsons.net> wrote:
> I am with Jim on the threadless headsets. I have two rivs that I love but if
> I could change one thing it would be to go threadless. It would offer a much
> wider variety of handlebar choices, I find it easier to adjust the headset,
> and it is stiffer, and more headsets are available, and I like being able to
> remove the bars without unwrapping the tape.
>

> I am relatively new to disc brakes, but I like the mechanical bb7 brakes on
> my surly troll a lot especially now that I am finally figuring out how to
> adjust them.
>
> Dan Abelson
> St Paul, MN

>
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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The threaded-threadless converter quills are a solution to bar/stem compatibility issues in theory, but usually they're pretty short, which makes for very limited upward height adjustability. Maybe some are taller than others? I doubt any have a 200-ish mm quill like a taller Nitto quill stem, but I'm not super knowledgeable about these.

More threadless bikes are coming with uncut forks now, which is nice. A lot of times manufacturers cut them too short, or the bike mechanic who assembles it cuts it too short, and then you're stuck (unless you get a new uncut fork or one of those extenders). But if the steerer is long enough, say 100-150 mm over the top of the top tube (which may be slightly upsloping for even more height), you've got a lot of usable room for adjustment of handlebar height. My Curt Goodrich custom has a smart approach. The headtube extends approx 45 mm above the top of the top tube, which upslopes slightly (but less than a Hillborne). Add another 10 or so mm for headset cup, and, 25-40 mm in spacers along with the stem, and I get the bars at or above saddle height with +/- 20 mm adjustability without the super tall stack of spacers that may be considered unsightly by some. It looks good to me, and gives me all the threadless benefits without looking awkward or having the bars too low.

[Seth Vidal]

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The threaded-threadless converter quills are a solution to bar/stem
> compatibility issues in theory, but usually they're pretty short, which
> makes for very limited upward height adjustability. Maybe some are taller
> than others? I doubt any have a 200-ish mm quill like a taller Nitto quill
> stem, but I'm not super knowledgeable about these.
>

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/high-rider-stem-adapter-28-622-2

That's incredibly tall.

The VO one is just normal nitto deluxe height.


-sv

[Matthew J]

Bruce Gordon, among others, will make an open faced quill stem on request.

On Friday, September 7, 2012 12:10:18 PM UTC-5, Dan wrote:

I am with Jim on the threadless headsets. I have two rivs that I love but if I could change one thing it would be to go threadless. It would offer a much wider variety of handlebar choices, I find it easier to adjust the headset, and it is stiffer, and more headsets are available, and I like being able to remove the bars without unwrapping the tape.

I am relatively new to disc brakes, but I like the mechanical bb7 brakes on my surly troll a lot especially now that I am finally figuring out how to adjust them.

[Peter Pesce]

I would LOVE if Riv could use their clout with Nitto to get them to make a removable faceplate quill stem. The bar (un)wrapping (and inevitable scratching) with quill stems is the one thing I dislike about them. I know there are or have been some versions of this out there, but none with Nitto quality as I recall.

-Pete in CT

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Removable faceplate and a 31.8 mm clamp option. I'm not terribly interested in the 31.8 mm diameter specifically, but there are some nice bars out there that are only available in that size. The 26.0 handlebar size seems to be going away, by and large.

[Dan Abelson]

I was reminded of one other benefit of threadless the other day when I pulled the stem out of my quickbeam to grease it after not greasing it for longer than I should have. While the stem was not stuck yet, I had to apply a little extra force to get it out. The stem getting stuck is not an issue with threadless. Don't get me wrong I love my rivs that and I realize there are various kludges such as adaptors to get threadless stems to work on bikes designed for quills but for what its worth I have a preference for threadless and having had bikes with both have found no downside for me to threadless. My opinion would probably be different if I liked to change bar height mid ride etc.

Dan Abelson
Saint Paul, mn

[Dan Abelson]

31.8 would be great. I would love to try salsa cowbells on my ahh.

Dan Abelson

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[Joe Bunik]

On 9/7/12, Jim Mather <math...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just so everyone knows, the threadless barrier at Riv was broken by
> some but not all Legolas'. Here are a couple of examples:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/6922766182/in/pool-legolas
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/20986098@N04/6773347072/in/pool-legolas/
>
> The Roadeo is also offered with either:
> http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-roadeo.htm
>

I asked Mark, and he indicated *all* Legolai were threadless, with a
1.6mm steerer. Whether that implies Roadeo uses a thicker
(thread-able?) steerer remains unclear to me.

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

Yes, there are pluses and minuses to each. When you want to adjust your handlebar height, or when you're buying a used bike, having a threadless stem is not an advantage. What's a few seconds' work -- or maybe a replacement with a Technomic long quill stem -- with threaded is either a royal pain or time to buy a new fork and good luck with that with threadless.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Threadless benefits are, at least for me, largely ease of installation and setup, this last because I know where I want my bars. But there's no question that, for fine tuning, quills are far superior. IMO, the biggest drawback to quill stems is not the quill system but the (usually) single bolt, non-faceplate bar clamp.

That said, if I were to choose the stem and headset system for a new bike, I'd choose threadless because it is (fine tuning adjustments aside) simply a more efficient design.

I have no idea if the claimed "additional stiffness and consequent steering accuracy" -- this used to be a sales point back when threadless was just taking over the market -- is theoretically true or just bullshit.

As for looks, VO and Riv -- and I've seen others -- prove that not all threadless stems have to be designed to that ugly in-your-face cheap/industrial/crude aesthetic.

[Peter Morgano]

Agreed. I would love to see a Riv exclusive Nitto stem with a pop-top. I have a few cheaper ones on my round town bikes and they just make changing bars/cockpit setups a dream.  The off brands of course do not have the quality or strength of a Nitto so i don't trust them to be pulled on with all my weight going up a 30% upgrade.

[Leslie]

Oh! The old Nitto RM-14 is now the RM-13; the new RM-14 is a 31.8 handlebar; the Ragley Luxy is another 31.8. I liked them, but there were SO few 31.8 quill stems out there, and they weren't pretty... I really wanted a Nitto Dirt-Drop stem in 31.8, no such thing... Went w/the 26, which lets me use 26 or 25.4 bars ( the latter shimmed)...

[Garth]

Do Riv and "budget price" go together ? lol  !    I too have followed Riv since just before the Atlantis came out for a whopping $950.  The Bombadil was what ... about $14-1500 when introduced ?    Point being ... even if they could meet a price point ... for numerous reasons they don't stay there long .   This is no knock on them ... it's obviously hard to keep prices steady for long.   I'm glad to own a Bombadil and I anticipate another :)   

Doesn't money grow on trees ?   It does for those who don't look for it from trees !   ;)

 

[Peter Pesce]

Funny you mention that! I was just today looking at the Cowbell for my Soma DC build, and thought they might be nice on my Rivs too if not for the clamp size. Now, if we could only convince Salsa to make then in silver! Off to the Salsa forums to start a thread.....

Pete (never satisfied) in CT

[James Warren]

I thought it would be relevant to post the following in relation to the recent discussion of disc brakes.

I was just looking at the Riv site. I hadn't read the Hunqapillar description for a while, and it has been updated, fairly recently I think. The following is stated in the second paragraph of the Hunqapillar's current description:

"

You won’t find a better touring bike. Some may have disc brakes or suspension or other features of debatable worth, but the Hunqapillar, without them, is our idea of perfect.

"

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James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- Remember, my friends, it is better to feel fast than to be fast.

[charlie]

Its been a while since I was forced to ride in the rain here in Washington State but I know if I start commuting again I will be stuck in it eventually and discs do work much better when it is raining hard like it does here. I don't imagine CA has much rain other than a light sprinkle now and then. Probably why adopting disc brakes are not a priority.

Some might ask well who in their right mind rides in a downpour anyway? My answer would be someone in Oregon or Washington on their way home with 15 miles to go and nothing but fir trees to 'wait' under........I really think regional differences drive some of the decision making. Its why you don't see many convertible automobiles in Washington and why homes in Arizona almost always have air conditioning. For the rider who only rides for pleasure its no big deal but more are using their bicycles to actually replace an automobile. (off my soapbox now)

[cyclotourist]

Jim, a very thoughtful posting! Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

I grew up w/ quill stems, but prefer threadless. I have found installation is incredibly easy. I've never enjoyed tightening threaded headsets, so threadless have been a pleasure to work with. Also I don't really care for the tall backwards "7" look of quill stems at saddle height. They look ungainly to me. It's also a big chunk of angled metal pointing at my crotch which I don't appreciate for unintended dismounts. 

Downsides are 1-1/8 threadless not really looking elegant with road tubing, and 1" threadless is next to non-existent. Threadless also looks kinda' silly with 50mm+ of spacers on a poorly designed bike. The strength/lack of flex isn't really a bonus as I've never noticed a quill stem flexing on me.

So yeah, long/short: I'd like a Taiwanese built budget Riv country bike (think AHH) w/ threadless and a single top tube for $750 or whatever the San Marcos goes for. I don't know if there are enough people in that niche to build one though, or if GP would even want to go after them.

Would be a cool bike though!

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David
Redlands, CA

**
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson.

[Steve Palincsar]

1" threadless WHAT is next to non-existent? Stems? Not only are custom stems available, you can also use a shim with 1 1/8" threadless, so stems are not a problem. Headsets? Chris King has them in several styles, and when I asked at their booth at NAHBS a couple of years ago about long-term availability, they said they would ALWAYS be available. So you've got stems and the best threadless headsets around. What more do you need? Is there a critical spacer shortage I'm unaware of?

[jimD]

Charlie,

It has been a while since I've lived in Seattle and Portland but the rainy season here in the northern Calif. SF bay area reminds me of the rain in the Pacific Northwest. The rims on my riv are starting to 'erode'. I've come to appreciate Splats and fenders. In New Mexico other than the summer monsoons, those acoutrements would have seemed excessive.

-JimD

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[Michael_S]

I doubt the price would go that low David, maybe $1000 like the original Hillbornes. I would buy one at that price that fits fat tires with a single top tube and lugs, no discs please.

On the stem issue, to me it's tough to build a production bike and get everything to line up for everybody type. So those with longer legs and shorter torso's end up with taller stems. For me most of the Riv's fit pretty well with just the right amount of stem, so I prefer quills.  

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Matthew J]

> Is there a critical spacer shortage I'm unaware of?

My problem with spacers is there are too darn many of them.  IMO opinion, spacers are kind of ugly.

 

A custom 1" threadless stem that does not spacers is almost as good as a quill, so long as my desired bar height does not change.   I say almost because aesthetically, I think the thinner quill stem emerging from the headset provides a more visually clean transition to the handlebars. 

 

Jim Thill is probably on to something when he says part of this owes something to what I grew up with.  On the other hand, Fixie Hipsters, whose primary bike objective is aesthetics put a premium on old quill stem bikes.  The quill may not be the only factor but given it is what the rider sees most while riding, it must have an attraction for them. 

[ERIC NORRIS]

I prefer the look of a quill stem for most bikes, but I will admit that a threadless stem will never get rusted/corroded into a steerer tube. I've had this problem on several bikes in recent years--one is still stuck--despite the liberal use of grease to try to keep sweat and water out.

--Eric N

www.campyonly.com

[PATRICK MOORE]

You could mix and match these: not the Riv aesthetic, but still, nice.

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[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Chris King?

---

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 12:27 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: New "budget" Riv in Summer 2013?

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[Matthew J]

> but I will admit that a threadless stem will never get rusted/corroded into a steerer tube. I've had this problem on several bikes in

> recent years--one is still stuck--despite the liberal use of grease to try to keep sweat and water out.

 

I've been using Lanolube since I discovered Rivendell in '06 or so.  I've not had a stem stick on me.  My bikes all spend the night and downtime indoors.

[Matt Beebe]

Luckily I've never had a problem with stems seizing either, even with tons of rain riding.    I use Phil Wood grease.   Or 'never-seize' or whatever it's called.

I prefer quill stems for their elegance and adjustability.

[cyclotourist]

1" threadless stems. I wouldn't want to buy a $300 custom stem, and don't like shims. 

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David
Redlands, CA

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[cyclotourist]

Yeah, maybe $1K. Half price from a Homer. But if the San Marcos can average $750 retail, why couldn't other Taiwanese bikes (single TT, single color)? 

I guess that raises the question, why does a Taiwanese made Sam H cost more than a Taiwanese San Marcos?

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[ted]

as a wild guess: fancier paint job, lots of rack mounts, more
expensive fork blades.

On Sep 10, 5:25 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, maybe $1K. Half price from a Homer. But if the San Marcos can average
> $750 retail, why couldn't other Taiwanese bikes (single TT, single color)?
>
> I guess that raises the question, why does a Taiwanese made Sam H cost more
> than a Taiwanese San Marcos?
>

> "Osama Bin Laden is dead. GM is alive." -- *Joe Biden*

[Peter Morgano]

I would think the partnership with soma eats alot if cost.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

MSRP on the San Marcos is $900. But Merry Sales and I think BTI sell it wholesale to any shop that wants to order one. Some of those may be willing to sell at razor thin margin for some reason. Riv never discounts below MSRP.

[cyclotourist]

So ~$1,000 is the sweet spot for Taiwanese bikes then. Throw a headset on there and it's out the door!

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

MSRP on the San Marcos is $900. But Merry Sales and I think BTI sell it wholesale to any shop that wants to order one. Some of those may be willing to sell at razor thin margin for some reason. Riv never discounts below MSRP.

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[Peter Morgano]

I thought it would be a complete bike for around that price. It could be done with powder coat and stickers in liu of badges. Grant has said a few times the materials are a smaller part of the cost compared to the labor so you could save 300 or so right there, even over the San Marcos.

[ted]

"Riv never discounts below MSRP"

Um well hardly ever I suppose, but pre order discounts and closeout
blow outs (e.g SimpleOne) have happened.

On Sep 10, 7:02 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Michael_S]

A Riv needs an appropriate Head badge and nice paint, that's what sets them apart.  $1000 or so seems like a good price for a Riv.  

What we really need is more info and less speculation.

~mike.

[Peter Morgano]

I dunno, saw a powder coated bombadil, still looked amazing. I think it didn't have a head badge either. The lines and design were still there to see, good stuff.

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