Are Brooks Saddle Worth the Money?

[Christopher Murray]

I had not bought a new Brooks in a few years and was shocked at the prices. I think they are great saddles but starting at $120 for a standard B17 is insane. You could get them for a fraction of that just a few years ago. WIth all the other saddles out there, do you think they are worth this much money? Especially with some great new brands and re-intro of some classics (Regal, Contour, Regal, etc). Has anyone tried any of these re-intros or have a Brooks alternative they like?

Cheers!

cm

[Joe Bernard]

Just a few years ago? I've been aware of Brooks saddles and their prices since Rivendell started selling them 18 years ago. They've always been pricey.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[bwphoto]

I've been watching them on eBay and there are some good deals. Auction B-17s lately have been topping out around +/-$70-$85, with an occasional ringer inn the $60 range. The higher end ones seem to be better deals when compared to the msrp.

It is to bad that Ideal is no longer around, since it was a great saddle and not as spendy as Brooks. I've ridden a lot of different saddles over 50+years of ridding and leather has always been my favorite especially for long distance touring. They are pricey but I've justified it by the comfort and lack of saddle soreness over thousands of miles and multiple 100mi days.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

There are lots of nice saddles that cost less. I keep hoping that I'll find an inexpensive saddle as comfortable as a B67, but no luck yet.

[Christopher Murray]

Here are the prices from the Holiday Flyer:

B.17 standard black with steel rails and frame: 11-055

B.17 womens, honey brown with black steel rails and frame: 11-058 $70

B.17 honey brown with copper rails and frame: 11-006 $95

B.17 honey brown with Ti rails and frame: 11-046 $150

Granted this was 8 years ago, but a >50% price increase in that time seems like a lot. And at the time you could get a B17 from another source for much less. I paid $55 in 2007 from a local retailer. 

[IanA]

Don't forget that the US currency has devalued significantly during the last 8 years, which makes the saddles seem more expensive to import, but in the UK the prices might not have changed to that degree.  Compare the price changes of the Japanese products over the last 8 years and you'll see the increases are about the same.  I like the B17 saddles a lot. I paid $70 for one and $99 for another about four years ago.  The $70 one was from eBay, the $99 one was on sale at a LBS. Both black saddles and the basic model  - the best value I reckon.

Ian A

Edmonton AB Canada.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

When I first opened Hiawatha Cyclery in 2005-06, my wholesale price on a standard B17 was $33 and retail prices were $75+. At that time, Brooks was being acquired by a new owner. That new owner, from my perspective, picked up on the fact that Brooks had become a boutique brand (partly thanks to Riv!) that would benefit from a high, exclusive price. The import/distribution channel also changed. Prices rose pretty dramatically at first during this transition, then stabilized and rose more slowly to the present $70-75 range for a B17 (wholesale price for US retailers, who have mostly kept a margins constant to sell at $110-120). The higher prices must be working because Brooks now has a huge variety of products they didn't have before. IMO, much of it is frivolous and way out of my price range, but the high cost of entry certainly adds an element of swankiness to the brand. I don't buy the ungodly expensive rain slickers and panniers and such, but I still think the saddles are a good deal.

[Nick Worthington]

In our stable, we have one VO equivalent of the B67, and a Cardiff B17 equivalent.  (I think they are made by the same company)  These are both very nice saddles, the =B67 is on my wife's former road, now town, bike, and has had a fair number of miles put on it.  Leather is a little lighter than on a Brooks, with a synthetic layer laminated to the under side.  Very comfy right out of the box, but no real data on long term durability.  (Our Riv's both have Brooks.)  

Ideal saddles, NOs and used, are commanding insane prices.  But you can get good deals on some of the other older brands.  A NOS Wrights narrow recently went begging on flea-bray for $65 - I have a used one on my single speed, and it's every bit as nice as a Brooks.  I've also seen Japanese versions of the B17 go for low prices.

Nick W.

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:47:06 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:

[grant]

Everything goes up in price, and in the case of Brooks, there are more reasons than just "the passing of time." As Joe B. noted, the weak dollar is one. Another--some of you may remember when Brooks went bankrupt about ------ I'm not going to look it up but it was about 8-9 years ago. Panic ensued, and in some kind of business deal that I don't understand, it (Brooks) was sold to a guy described "mainly as a Las Vegas gambler" for something like $38.00, note the decimal point. Then he made some money reselling it to Italy's second-biggest saddle maker, Selle Royal, and Brooks was saved, although amid fears of the new non-British owners somehow wrecking it.
It would be foolish for a company to buy a failed business and continue to operate it in exactly the same way that lead to its folding, and so SR changed things. Labor costs did not go down, but presumably (I mean, ideally) we all make more money now than we did then if we're in the same job, so some of that can be absorbed and seen as a way to actually support Brooks and prevent another bankruptcy, as opposed to just scoring a fire sale saddle or two.
 I was certain SR'd wreck it--that we'd see plastic Brookses, etc. (Brooks itself tried that a decade or more earlier and it didn't work). Under Selle Royal ownership the saddles got bumpy, not just painted, badges. Who cares, right? But considering there wasn't much to improve short of genetically engineered cows, that was something. The boxes got better, truly no big deal. The consistency seems to have improved---something no one rider is in a position to notice, but we-who-sell-many do.
Brooksitalia is reaching out more, with slick ads that play heavy on its heritage. Too heavy for my taste, but if it's what they need to find new customers and keep this saddle alive, have at it. The accessories, in some cases, romanticize the olde days more than I can handle when I'm in a low-tolerance mood. The pink saddles, oddly, don't bug me that much, because underneath it all it's still a B.17.
Rivendell has always tried to welcome challengers and others into the leather saddle world. We were the first or nearly the first to sell other leather saddles, and I think it would be good for everybody and Brooks if there were some other serious options. The SA saddles are still (I think) more comfortable, and that's saying a lot. Are they too comfortable? Maybe, but they don't last as long and they cost more. I'm not sure that's such a bad deal, either. Is $180 too much to spend for a saddle that lasts, minimally, 5,000 miles? That's about three and a half cents a mile, and it's your genitals we're talking about. A personal decision, that one. There are tons of Taiwan saddles, too. Mixed reviews, and we've sold them, but for now I'm cheering them on and waiting to see how long they last, but I don't want to sell them anymore until they're in the same league as Brooks.
The internet makes price shopping easy for anybody, and there's no way to look good arguing against it. I can say that in our case, if we were to price Brooks lower than we do, we'd have a harder time being in business than we do. Our rent is low. Our salaries are as high as The Business can afford, but they're not modern successful-company salaries by any means.
The old Holiday flyer you can link to on the BLUG is odd because except for the item descriptions, it is written without using a single "e." That's why it reads weird, but if you think you can write item descriptions or even anything ("anything" being excepted) without using (those two words excepted, too) the letter e, then...let's hear it!

[Tim McNamara]

On Nov 23, 2012, at 9:21 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I first opened Hiawatha Cyclery in 2005-06, my wholesale price on a standard B17 was $33 and retail prices were $75+. At that time, Brooks was being acquired by a new owner. That new owner, from my perspective, picked up on the fact that Brooks had become a boutique brand (partly thanks to Riv!) that would benefit from a high, exclusive price. The import/distribution channel also changed. Prices rose pretty dramatically at first during this transition, then stabilized and rose more slowly to the present $70-75 range for a B17 (wholesale price for US retailers, who have mostly kept a margins constant to sell at $110-120).

I think that is exactly right and not just with Brooks and its new owners. A lot of manufacturers have pegged the fact that the upper end of the bike market tends to be a bunch of suckers. $100 chains, $200 cassettes, etc. Bike component prices at the high end are just plain stupid in many cases (Campy, Shimano, Sram, etc.). IME the new Brooks saddles don't last as long and aren't as comfortable as the ones from 30 years ago (although the new ones get comfortable sooner)- I still ride a Pro I bought new in 1977. The old Brooks company was pickier about leather, IMHO. The new ones are still better than 90% of the saddles out there, though, and a lot of those cost even more than a Brooks.

My other hobby is playing music and the exact same phenomenon can be readily observed in guitars and accessories. Something with $40 worth of parts retails for $250 and guitarists buy 'em. I know people with boxes full of "obsolete" stomp boxes and the like, abandoned when the next cool thing came along.

Both have the equivalent of Rivendell customs or Richard Sachs or Bruce Gordon: finely crafted, carefully thought out works of useable art.

And in both bikes and guitars one can get at least 90% of the performance at a fraction of the price.

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

B17s are $99 on Amazon with free shipping. Selle Anatomica is having a
$99 sale until the end of 2012.

Jay

1On Nov 23, 6:40 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

[RJM]

I am just not sure how much saddles that are comfortable, look good, and are quality made should sell for, but 145 isn't terrible. I buy the Brooks Special (or whatever the copper railed, hammered rivet B17 is called) and I love them. They last; the leather is thick; they look good; and most importantly they are comfortable. My last two saddles came from Riv and my next two will probably come from them too (I plan on two more bikes). I think for the next bike I may try the Select version of the B17. I hope by the time I get my pennies in order Riv is still selling them. I do think the leather on the special is better than the leather on the regular old b17 I bought. It is thicker and tends to not sag as quickly or as much.

 

I have tried the VO version of the brooksies and I was not impressed, at all.

 

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:47:06 PM UTC-6, Christopher Murray wrote:

[Eric Platt]

I don't think Brooks are overpriced if they are comfortable for you and are what you need.  On one of my bikes, am again trying a B-17.  For the past year or so, have not been able to ride comfortably on a Brooks.  Seems the rear cantle seems to be, um, rubbing me the wrong way.  To say it nicely. 

 

Luckily, am able to ride a Terry saddle without diffiiculty.  Although they have been recently redesigned (again) and I'm not sure they are as comfortable as the previous version.  If they had saddle loops, they might be my all time favorite.  Comfortable, wide in the back and seem to hold up for a long time.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

 

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Savvas <ka...@chariot.net.au> wrote:

Christopher,

I ride (on one of my bikes anyway) a wide, sprung VO leather saddle that has been extremely comfortable. It's a sort of B66/67 pattern and has been on my cargo bike for about 2 years and had quite a lot of use. I'm very pleased with it. VO make 3 or 4 models in different widths. I can't recall the cost (direct from VO) but it seemed very reasonable and in the range you are harking back to. Some of the lower-end Lepper saddles are also quite reasonably priced although I've never seen one to hold or look at closely. I've seen Indian bikes with repro Brooks saddles (that can be bought very cheaply mailorder) but they don't look and feel too good to me.

So there is some choice of quality leather saddles from at least 3 manufacturers - maybe more. I personally have not found a more comfortable saddle than Brooks (or VO) as long as I get the width right. I used to ride an old Turbo but after switching to a more upright position the wider shape of the B-17 and Flyer became my ideal. I haven't yet found a plastic-based saddle to compare to these. Like visits to my dentist, I don't begrudge Brooks one cent of their price although I do agree that they can be expensive things. The trick might be to find a shop with low overheads (usually a single person operation) who can afford to order and sell them a little more cheaply...

Savvas,

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[Ron Mc]

Is your butt worth it ? Mine is.

[Christopher Murray]

I really like the Brooks that are on my bikes- both B17s, one of'em special and one standard. It just seems like the prices went up quite a bit and am not sure that I would buy another without trying some alternatives. I don't think the exchange played much of a role here- but I'd have to go back and look. I feel like at some point the price gets too high and it is time look elsewhere. Isn't that basically what happened with Toyo? Despite being well made by skilled craftspeople the price got too high for Riv to continue having them make frames.

I am lucky because I have never had an issue with any saddle- rode cross county unsupported on a $15 saddle. If Brooks were the only saddle that worked for me I would buy it with a smile.

Cheers!
Chris

[Ron Mc]

We were at a riding trailhead a couple of weeks ago, two women were comparing saddles and diapers and one was admitting she was going to spend more money to try a different saddle.  I showed them my daughter's B68S, which has led to nothing but laud from my daughter, a and complete dearth of sore butt complaints.  "Wow, I might be able to get by with only one pad."  Ride in your canvas shorts - in no diapers.  By the time you add in lycra riding diapers, Brooks is a less expensive saddle.  What surprises me is how the word doesn't get out to the techy bike culture - of course, they're hung up on grams.  Most of them don't even know what a Brooks saddle is - a 110 y-o design.  And I'll admit, I rode Unicanitors before my butt couldn't take it anymore.  Then Concor, then a Terry.  When I bought my first Brooks it was, what had I been thinking before.  When you sit on it, it disappears, and you don't think about it again - all through the ride.  

[Garth]

The sense of value has nothing to do but with the one doing the valuing :)

Considering these saddles last a long time and are a one time investment, reach your own conclusion.  You can pay now ... or pay more at another now !

I wish I could ride a leather saddle .. but I am one who cannot... I never could dating back to my first Fuji ten speed in  the 70's with a leather saddle.  I'd pay whatever in a heartbeat to get such a durable saddle though ! 

[PATRICK MOORE]

I haven't been able to get comfortable on a Brooks, but if I found them comfortable, I'd pay up. 

I will second the opinion that a comfortable saddle requires no padded shorts -- so you save the cost of at least 2 pairs, making the equation much less startling.

I do regret the chi chi, Rapha-esque, rather twee, high cost accessory niche that into which Brooks seems to be worming its way, but a saddle just about makes or breaks a bike.

Patrick "so do the tires, the bar, the pedals, the gearing, and the head badge" Moore who has umpteen K miles on a very early '90s Flite from many different bikes ridden in ABQ, NM.

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Eric Platt <eperic...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think Brooks are overpriced if they are comfortable for you and are what you need. 

--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Michael]

Today I have seen the price for a new B17 standard in black vary among reputable online venders for as much as $50 US dollars.

 

The questions are:

 

 1. How much is the saddle worth to you?

 

2. How much customer loyalty, in this economy, are you able/willing to extend, if your LBS is priced higher?

 

3. Should you give as much as 50$ to a stranger to buy their more expensive saddle, in this economy, or is it better to keep it for your wife and kids, since you have that option among B17 offerings online today?

 

 

Personally, I like a cheap score. But I think all the prices I saw today are fair to a certain degree. So I wouldn't feel ripped off for buying an expensive one.

 

However, I would hate to learn that a more expensive option was priced high only because "it can be".

 

On the business end, would it be wiser to price lower and sell, say, 9 B17's a month, or price higher and sell, maybe 2 a month? I am not a business man and don't know how these things work.

 

[Ray Shine]

I'll add an anecdotal story…

A couple of years back, I rode a long distance ride from SF to Ok City with an Aussie and a Brit (no, this is not a bad bar joke). Both of those fellows were riding on expensive plastic gel saddles, me a moderately priced Brooks B17 on my Atlantis. It was a 6 week-ride, and I never suffered any discomfort or other butt malady during the ride. I never rode in padded shorts.

My companions, however, spent most of the ride in high discomfort if not all out agony. It was very hot most days, and their sweating butts broke out in all sorts of hot-spots and saddle sores. They each tried a new and softer saddle, even more padding, lotions and salves, etc., and nothing relieved their problems. I tried to explain that it was rather counter-intuitive, but the more firm the saddle and less padded the butt, the more comfortable it would be. I explained that the brooks was really a very taught suspended platform that conformed to my butt and allowed some air flow, but neither bought into my explanation, and each just kept salving up at each stop and complaining.

---

From: Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 23, 2012 2:32:46 PM
Subject: [RBW] Are Brooks Saddle Worth the Money?

Is your butt worth it ?  Mine is.

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[Matt Beebe]

A brooks or similar metal-frame/leather saddle takes time to break in, but once it is, it becomes obviously worth the money.   I've never ridden in special shorts or padding, just normal pants, and I can ride 135 mile days on this type of saddle.    BUT not straight out of the box-  it needs to break-in time, probably the first 1000 or so miles, plus a few rain showers.   After that you'll never think about the saddle again.   

Some folks try, but don't like, brooks saddles because they have heard the hype and expect them to be more comfortable right away-   but this is not true in my experience-  especially not with very thick hides like on the specials or professionals.   People who ride regularly will find any saddle comfortable sooner, because their legs are a bit stronger so the saddle does not bear as much of their weight.

[Bruce Herbitter]

Like Matt, I find leather saddles more comfortable without padding in my pants. Wool Boxers under riding shorts or pants- I like MUSA fine, as well as ZOIC.  Selle Anatomicas saddles are comfortable from the start, while Brooks B17s take about 300 - 500 miles for me to feel that "ahh" sensation. I ride with the nose uptilted, as many other riders do (with bars at or higher than the saddle).  I have never liked the Brooks Team Pro. I have one but haven't liked it enough to sit on it long enough to break it in. As Grant noted, Brooks lasts longer than Selle Anatomica. I've worn out one Selle, and zero Brooks saddles in the past 10 years of riding. Since you're more likely to ride if you're comfortable on your bike, a pleasant saddle set up is worth the money. Saddles do go on sale (another post noted Selle's current one) if price is a sensitive issue or you can buy from a vendor you want to support realizing that it's not a huge deal in the long run. I've gotten one of each from RBW as it happens.

I picked up a Taiwan saddle to try, a Gyes, and do not recommend it. Not well shaped and not comfortable. Have not tried any of the Berthoud saddles. Talk about Rapha-esque prices...

Was given an old Italian leather saddle by Saffati which I haven't gotten around to yet. Letting some Obenauf's work its magic presently on that one.

[Ron Mc]

my buddy is very fond of his Bertoud, though he put Brooks Aged, B17 and B68S, on his tandem.  

While I'm sure Brooks must have some UK-made lines, the majority of all their products are made in China, so there really isn't a labor cost issue built into Brooks price.  Most of what we're paying for is marketing cost.  Hence the ability of Brooks to unload mass product that we see selling at $50 below retail.  It takes a lot of money to keep up that Rapha-esque image, but that may be what is required to get their name out to a younger market.  

A very similar business model must be Hardy (Brothers), the fly reel maker By Appointment to HRH, who has survived more than a couple of reboots.  The cost of UK labor was destroying their market.  In the end, other than woes for the unemployed, what's the difference between Korea-CNC and UK-CNC?  But they have survived by keeping a select line of English-made products, while the bulk of their line is made offshore - they sell these as "designed and engineered in England".  I personally am very happy to see them keep these traditional models alive that would have otherwise priced themselves out of the market.  

[Matt Beebe]

"While I'm sure Brooks must have some UK-made lines, the majority of all their products are made in China, so there really isn't a labor cost issue built into Brooks price."

Brooks saddles are made in England.   Maybe some of their other offerings are made elsewhere, I don't know.   The "made in England" stamp is a key element to their marketing AFAIK.

[RJM]

I think that some of their bags and such are made in China. Brooks goes into detail about orgins and why they make some stuff overseas on the comment sections of many of the products on the website. Turns out that if you are trying to hit a lower price point, England maybe too expensive to manufacture their bags if they even have a place that can do it. There saddles are made in England, that they emphatically state several times. IMHO, If their saddle manufacturing were moved to China, I would look elsewhere for a saddle.

 

It bothers me not at all that their bags are made someplace other than England because I don't buy that stuff. I would much rather purchase a Sackville or Nigel Smythe from Riv over any of the bags that Brooks is selling. I just think the designs of the Sacville line are so much better.

[Ron Mc]

I stand corrected.  The saddles are made in England.  I just dug out two boxes (storing two terry saddles now).  

It's the Brooks Challenge bag that I remember, made in China from English-tanned hides

On Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:38:25 AM UTC-6, Matt Beebe wrote:

[bwphoto]

Who remembers riding in wool shorts with real chamois? We used to make our our own, road both unicanitor and Ideale saddles and we never had issues with sores, or rawness considering we usually averaged 100+ miles a day on long tours.

The Point? Somewhere along the line we became so convinced that we needed padding and lycra (probably the "coolness factor") wool shorts with real chamois disappeared, the same thing happened with saddles, bikes etc. Real comfort didn't seem to be the driving force behind these changes, instead the "comfort" was manufactured as a marketing tool to increase sales. By emphasizing the role of padding and tech material the actual human factor of comfort was replaced by "perceived comfort". There has been some amazing research on this subject, a lot of it done by Dan Ariely.

At the time when wool shorts were disappearing, culturally gen x was emerging along with the precursors of the Urban Hipster generation. Gen x was easily distracted by shinning new things which coincidentally helped push cycling into the hi tech gee wizz phase. That move did get a lot of folks on bikes but true functionality still played last fiddle so most of the new cyclists  were those willing to to adapt to the image of the racer. The problem with this phase was that it didn't drastically increase the number of non-racing riders, except for those of us whose love of riding was motivation enough.

The urban hipster came along and popularized the riding by turning the bike into an accessory and just like Gen x the hipster is adding more and more riders, but unlike Gen x the hipster movement combined with the costs of driving have played a major role in popularizing the bike through the very "I could care less" attitude they embraced. Now we no longer felt we needed to get all "kitted up" just to ride to work or run an errand.

Each of these trends influenced the buying preferences of the potential cycling market and in turn influenced what was available and at what price, so now that Brooks saddles are cool the demand is high, the same goes for steel bikes.  While each trend was accompanied by rising prices driven by demand ( either real or imagined) each trend brought us closer to a wider acceptance of the as both a recreational and utilitarian tool for living.

The good side of this story is that another trend will come along and likely effect the price and availability of bike related products. Hopefully that trend will be more well rounded in a way that increases bike useage by normal folks something we are already seeing in the tragic aftermath of Sandy, bikes have become one of the easiest ways to get around.

I'll stop here.

[ted]

I thought the models with brass rivets (eg select and special lines)
were made in the UK, and the others (with smaller steel rivets) were
made elsewhere.

On Nov 24, 7:38 am, Matt Beebe <matthiasbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *"While I'm sure Brooks must have some UK-made lines, the majority of all

> their products are made in China, so there really isn't a labor cost issue

> built into Brooks price."*

[Peter Morgano]

Saw a tour of the brooks factory recently. Looks like all saddles are made in house but the frames for the saddles were coming from "somewhere else"

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[ted]

"Who remembers riding in wool shorts with real chamois?"

I do, though I never made my own. I think the ones I bought were
"Protogs".

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Ben's Cycles has 20% off until tomorrow, including on $99 B17s.
Time to stock up.

On Nov 24, 5:38 pm, Matt Beebe <matthiasbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *"While I'm sure Brooks must have some UK-made lines, the majority of all

> their products are made in China, so there really isn't a labor cost issue

> built into Brooks price."*

[Kelly]

I for one haven't found them to be that expensive.  My race saddles were all well over 100 dollars.  Agreed there are plenty of 10 dollar takes offs and things to be found.  However by comparison the standard B17 at roughly 90 bucks here in Missouri is NOT in my opinion expensive by comparison to other quality saddles.   The B17 (forgot the designation S maybe) with the brass rivets is going for about 145.   Once again well within industry standards for a quality saddle.   

Selle, Fizek and others have been over 100 bucks for years.   So to that end maybe (or indeed) saddles are pricey.  I just don't see Brooks being a standout or company to be singled out about price.   

Just my opinion of course.. .

Kelly

[PatKendall]

IMO Brooks are worth the cost. I wish I had the dollars in my bank account for all the saddles I purchased before I bought my first B-17.

Do use caution in purchasing a used leather saddle. Most folks are hesitant to sell a nicely broken in Brooks. I "won" one on eBay that should have been put out to pasteur. Would have been less painful to break in a new one.

[Joe Bernard]

I completely agree with this. Nice, high quality saddles cost real "riders serious about riding, or even style" money. Your LBS has a $20-box full of serviceable plastic saddles for the folks who don't need/want/can't afford the pricey stuff. I like Brookses, and I pay for them. My last new one was from Rivendell because they have the ones I like, and they deserve the support for sticking with Brooks when no one else cared. I didn't check other sites for a better price.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Matthew J]

Another consideration is where the savings on the lower priced options derive.  

Traditional leather tanning uses organic compounds that used properly do not pollute the environment or harm the people tanning the leather.  Organic compounds cost more to obtain.  Implementation is more labor intensive and takes more time.

Modern chemicals and methods are available.  Most likely the leather in less expensive saddles come from modern factories.  Leather tanning factories in China (source of almost all lower cost leather tanning) are notorious for the pollution they spew in a country where pollution is generally accepted.  Who knows about the long term health of the workers.

[Ryan Watson]

Last year, I attempted two 1200K randonees. In both cases, I bailed shortly after 1000 km due to sleep deprivation and general exhaustion, but thanks to my trusty Brooks B-17, my butt was never sore!

If I had to, I'd probably pay $500 for one since no other saddle, leather or otherwise, understands my complex hiney. 

Ryan in Albuquerque 

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[Bill M.]

$120 for a saddle is not exactly cheap, but look around.  Selle SMP makes a few cheap saddles, but their main line stuff runs $250 and up.  Selle Italia has saddles that run into the $350 - 450 range.  In comparison, a Brooks looks like a moderately priced, comfortable but heavy touring saddle.

I have an old B17, a recent Imperial, a Selle Anatomica, and my current favorite saddle a Rivet Pearl Ti on various bikes.  None were exactly cheap, but I don't regard any of them as money poorly spent.

The Rivet has not been mentioned here yet, and they are certainly not cheap, but I have to say the shape of the Pearl is far better for my anatomy than any Brooks I have ridden.  It's quite stiff when new and is taking a while to break in (maybe 800 miles so far), but I think it's a terrific saddle.  I know a couple of other Rivet owners that seem to agree.

Bill

[Anne Paulson]

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:
. By the time you add in lycra
> riding diapers, Brooks is a less expensive saddle. What surprises me is how
> the word doesn't get out to the techy bike culture - of course, they're hung
> up on grams.

Could it be that, possibly, there's a reason why some women don't like
Brooks saddles? Could it be there's a reason that women's saddles with
cutouts were invented?

I'm glad that Brooks saddles work for a lot of you. Please don't fall
into the trap of believing that because Brooks saddles are comfortable
for you, they must be comfortable for me too, but somehow I'm
foolishly avoiding them.

Rule of thumb: If you sit down on a saddle, and you're not sitting on
your sit bones, and no matter how you adjust the saddle, you're still
not sitting on your sit bones: that saddle is not for you. No matter
what you do, that saddle will still not be for you.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[PATRICK MOORE]

Anne: you probably haven't tried this one:

http://www.modernbike.com/itemgroup.asp?igpk=2126176114&TID=367&gclid=CKn0ybvG97MCFYVFMgodFTQAMQ

1630 grams -- notice how they didn't just say "four pounds".

I don't like Brooks saddles, either -- not that I've not tried to --
but I find that my Flites don't require diapers or special pants.

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[Anne Paulson]

I don't see how a spring would address the issue at all. If the saddle
is the wrong shape, springs don't help.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Oh, how earnest we all are.

What I really want to see is the B135 on a 917 gram R3 Cervelo frame.

[Stephen S]

Quoted for truth 

"I don't see how a spring would address the issue at all. If the saddle 
is the wrong shape, springs don't help. "

[Joe Bernard]

I believe Mr. Moore was attempting humor. It worked for me..that "double-sprung" saddle is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Anne Paulson]

Yeah, sorry I missed that.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/s7Tgo4DFqloJ.

[Dan McNamara]

I agree with Anne's point that if the sit bones are not in the right position a saddle is not comfortable.

My SO had me put her fancy woman-specific gel saddle on her Betty Foy when we got it. I had a B68S pre-aged ready to go and finally convinced her to give it a try as the gel saddle was not really working. The Brooks was a total revelation for her. And she continues to be amazed that it gets more comfortable with use. So her sit bones are in the right place for a B68.

Given the gel saddle was about $150 the B68 was a value.

Dan

Marin

[René Sterental]

I could never get used to the B17 either, or any other Brooks I've tried. The Berthoud Touring saddles were a revelation and now all my Rivs and my BF sport one. Only my FS MTB sports a Specialized saddle that I also find very comfortable and don't care if it gets torn if I or the bike fall. 

The key, for me, seems to be that I need the top of the saddle to be flat from front to back and all the Brooks are curved.

René 

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[Bill M.]

Matt,

If you look at an SA, a B17 and a Rivet Pearl from above, you'll see that they are all about the same width at the widest part.  The SA is nearly triangular from nose to tail, the skirts are wide and flared but relatively soft.  The designer INTENDED for them to contact your inner thighs (per an e-mail exchange I had with him before his untimely passing).  The Brooks has a little more 'shape' to it, the nose stays narrower longer than on the SA.  The skirts are more vertical, but there's still some contact there.  

The Rivet's nose stays narrow much longer than that of the Brooks, then it flares much more rapidly to the wider section.  This is achieved by the skirts being pulled together under the saddle and riveted together with a small metal reinforcing plate.  The result is that the Rivet eliminates (for me) the contact point between the inside of the thigh and the corner of the saddle.  That makes a real difference in comfort, IMO.  Also, the Rivet leather is very stiff, so it supports the sit bones well.  The more you sink into the saddle, the more that contact point becomes significant.  It takes some real mileage for the Rivet to break in, so you can't judge one on the first ride.

I have the skirts of my B17 Imperial laced in tight, and have also laced the skirts of my SA and pulled them in tight, but compared to the Rivet those are only partially successful in eliminating that inner thigh contact.  My B17 Special is not laced (yet), but I have cut a fairly large slot into the center of the saddle to relieve pressure from the 'hump' that can develop in a Brooks over the years.   I also have a Brooks Flyer that's both cut out and laced, but it''s not currently in use.  The SA, Imperial and Rivet all come with cutouts.  There's a pattern here!

Hope that helps,

Bill Mennuti

On Friday, November 30, 2012 11:36:27 AM UTC-8, hangtownmatt wrote:

Bill, or anyone else for that matter,

Would you please explain how the Rivet Pearl is different for your anatomy?  I ask because I've put 3,000 miles on a Brooks B17 over the last 7 months and have suffered horribly from saddle sores where the back of my thigh meets my buttocks. I'm not sure if it is the shape of the Brooks B17 or its skirt that is causing me issues, but I finally gave up last week and robbed Peter (vintage Bianchi) to pay Paul (Sam Hillborne).  Sam is now sporting a Specialized Romin Evo and the saddle sore issue is going away.  I'll stick with it if I have to, because it works, but I'd rather have a Rivet, Berthoud or another Brooks model.  I was supposed to test ride a Pearl today but PNW weather is preventing that.

I sure wish there we more online reviews of the Rivet products.

Matt

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:31:59 PM UTC-8, Bill M. wrote:

The Rivet has not been mentioned here yet, and they are certainly not cheap, but I have to say the shape of the Pearl is far better for my anatomy than any Brooks I have ridden.

[Stonehog]

Pics show what he's talkin' about:

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/stonehog/sets/72157630878259856/

Mobile BH

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[Paul LZY]

Prices may be up, but I still think they are worth it, and I'd still buy at that price. 

I just finished a century on a 30 year old, laced up B17. Its not as comfortable as my newer Team Pro, but can't complain, still pretty darn good!