Don't read if you don't like heresy (a.k.a. my new road bike which isn't a Rivendell)

[William]

Thanks to Rivendell, my entire stable of bikes got turned over in the last few years.  That process started in 2009.  The last remaining bike I had from my past life was a custom road bike (Davidson Signature), but even that, I decided, was too small.  I corrected that somewhat with a tall and long stem, which looked a little goofy but improved the situation.  The nagging shortcoming to my Davidson was that I can't run anything wider than a 700x25.  Hence it's for sale on ebay, as many of you have seen (now it has a bid!).  

To replace it, I had bounced around several ideas.  First off, a 59 Roadeo.  I'm virtually certain a Roadeo would be perfect for what I want from this particular spot in my stable, but I'm on a bike department budget that made that impossible.  A San Marcos was out of the question, mainly because I'm in between sizes.  So, I considered the forthcoming Rawland Nordavinden, was tempted by a super low sale price on the VO Rando frame, and kept an eye out for a 58 Rambouilet.  

My search ended when I got turned on to Black Mountain Cycles, a one-man shop in Point Reyes Station.  Mike Varley does the design and Taiwan source thing for both a road frameset and a really slick monster cross.  Mike has a long history of design in the bike industry, and he's got a spectacular operation.  We had an open control in Pt Reyes Station last month on an SF Randonneurs brevet.  I stopped in, checked out a couple measurements, and bought it.  Our RBA was pretty entertained that my receipt for that open control was for a frameset.  Anyway, I drove out there and picked it up yesterday, and got started on the build.  So now I have a road bike that makes it easier to get the bars up, takes Jack Browns without fenders, and Roly Polys with fenders.  It's entirely possible that I'll have the money for a Roadeo someday, and riding this will get me ready to buy that with confidence.  Or maybe I'll get more refined opinions and do a Custom.  This bike gets me to a MUCH more useful road experience at an incredible price.  I highly recommend giving Black Mountain Cycles a look if you are in the market for a $600 road frameset.

Pictures show the progress and status:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629154963632/ 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-03-05 at 11:01 -0800, William wrote:
> es Station last month on an SF Randonneurs brevet. I stopped in,
> checked out a couple measurements, and bought it. Our RBA was pretty
> entertained that my receipt for that open control was for a
> frameset.

You ought to post that on randon. EVERYBODY would be pretty
entertained!

[Ryan Ray]

If there was a 64cm in either style (preferably the cross frame) I would order one today.

- Ryan

[Peter Pesce]

Very nice!

It is indeed rare to find a "road" frame that will take 32's or even 33.3 JB's.
I was looking for such a thing myself and the Soma Stanyan seemed like the best option. But once you're spending $700 you may as well spend $1k, and then... well, you know how that goes!

-Pete in CT

[Addison Wilhite]

I was particularly impressed with the Desalvo "dirt road" bike at NAHBS.  Not a bad price for that caliber of work either.

Best,

A

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--
Addison
http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com

[RoadieRyan]

I've stumbled across Mikes blog before and loved those Orange Road
bikes looks like a lovely build- enjoy!

[cyclotourist]

That might just be the bike I'm looking for! I mentioned this in
another thread a couple weeks ago... basically a Taiwanese tigged
Roadeo w/ threadless steerer, 430mm stays... Wish his site listed some
more info, it's kinda' paltry. The monsterX is pretty nice, too!

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--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an
America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
the America I love.”

[Esteban]

David - you gotta spend some time on the couch at BMC.  

[William]

Scroll down to the bottom for the geometry chart

http://blackmountaincycles.blogspot.com/p/black-mountain-cycles-frames.html

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[cyclotourist]

Got it, thanks! Really diggin' the road bike. 59 might be within 5mm
of a perfect fit!

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>> --
>> Cheers,
>> David
>> Redlands, CA
>>
>> **
>> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an
>> America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
>> the America I love.”
>>
>>
>

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[cyclotourist]

Behavior Medical Center? :-)

http://www.llu.edu/llubmc/about.html

On 3/5/12, Esteban <Prot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> David - you gotta spend some time on the couch at BMC.
>>
>

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[William]

I posted several additional numbers and an on-the-ground photo, just for you

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/6812058066/in/photostream

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>> Cheers,
>> David
>> Redlands, CA
>>
>> **
>> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an
>> America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
>> the America I love.”
>>
>>
>
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[cyclotourist]

You sir, are truly a scholar and a gentleman.

:-)

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>> >> Cheers,
>> >> David
>> >> Redlands, CA
>> >>
>> >> **
>> >> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an
>> >> America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
>> >> the America I love.”
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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>> Cheers,
>> David
>> Redlands, CA
>>
>> **
>> “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an
>> America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s
>> the America I love.”
>>
>>
>
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[RonLau]

For those who does not live in Bay Area. Mike's shop couch has been
THE hot topic within SF Randonneur group. One of our member has been
known to spend hours on that couch. I was told he rode 40 miles from
SF just to sit on it.

If you ever come here and want to ride, that will be good place to
go. You can do the Lighthouse loop (40 miles) from there or go out to
Petaluma to say hello to Bruce Gordon and White Industries (30 miles?)

Give us a call here and we can go with you, or you can get John Potis
to go with you, he knows that couch.

On Mar 5, 11:01 am, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:

[William]

I did my hilly commute through the east bay hills (~35 miles, ~2500ft of climbing).  Ride report:  PURE WIN

[CycloFiend]

on 3/5/12 10:01 PM, cyclotourist at cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

> Behavior Medical Center? :-)
>
> http://www.llu.edu/llubmc/about.html

Black Mountain Cycles - Pt. Reyes Bike shop. Wholehearted endorsement. Mike
is a great guy and runs a good shop.

- J

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com

"I had to ride slow because I was taking my guerrilla route, the one I
follow when I assume that everyone in a car is out to get me."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Got it, I was poking fun at the acronym being the one for a mental health provider near me :-)

[Mike]

William, congrats on the new bike. Yeah, those frames look great.
Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I'm in-between sizes otherwise I
might be considering one of their frames to take the spot vacated by
the sale of my Quickbeam. They seem to be designed well. Looks like
right now you can get brakes free with frame purchase.

http://blackmountaincycles.blogspot.com/

Tomorrow I'll pick-up my Surly CC frame which I've made some changes
to in hopes of using it as my "go fast" bike. As for the space vacated
by the Quickbeam... I'm trying to stay focused on getting a Big Dummy.

--mike

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Oh, you sold the QB. Just not putting enough miles on it? Now what will I borrow this summer??? :-)

As for the BMC bikes, I wish they were built in 2cm increments. I'm slightly between sizes, too. Yeah I know, what's the big deal w/ 1cm, right, but I'm a fussy one...

[William]

FWIW, if Mike had handed me these bikes, and told me to resell them, I would call my '59' a 58.  It is 58cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the top tube along the seat tube.  My '59' measures 59cm from the center of the bottom bracket to the tippy top of the seat tube along the seat tube.  Since there's an external seat clamp, that spot on my tape measure that is 59cm is an imaginary spot about 2/3 of the way up the seat clamp.  By my reckoning, it's a 58 and that's one of the myriad reasons I bought it.   

[Philip Williamson]

I measure bikes to the top of the top tube at the seat tube junction,
too. Not to the top of the seat tube collar.
That's definitely good to know about the BMC bikes.

Philip

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

The lack of consistency in frame measurement really bugs me. I wish the industry would stick to one way (center to center preferred) and be done with it. Posting the actual as well as theoretical is even better.

I know, I know, I said consistency and bicycle in the same rant, sorry...

[William]

size is in the eye of the beholder.  Folks don't rant that a Medium at Banana Republic and a Medium at Old Navy fit differently (OK, perhaps they do).  

Seriously though, Grant will tell you it all comes down to getting your three contact spots in the right places.  Feet, tuckus, hands.  Where the frame is floating in the middle is mainly just looks (which is more than nothing, but less than everything)

Want to know what made me glad I gave money to Mike?  When I told him I was dwelling on the numbers, he sent me a Park branded fit chart pdf, and asked me to fill it out for a bike that fit (in my case, the Hilsen).  Critical numbers were seat height, setback, reach, and bars below saddle.  I did the measurements and sent them in.  Mike then took the numbers and first agreed that the 59 was closest.  Then he took his 59 and set it up with my seat height, my setback (which meant putting a different seatpost on), my reach (which meant putting a different stem on) and my handlebar below saddle (which meant flipping spacers and such).  He then photographed it and emailed it to me, saying "this is what your setup is gonna look like".   I'd never had a shop do that for me.  Heck, I thought I was pretty helpful when I worked at a shop and I never did that.  

[Bill M.]

Sticking to c-c or c-t seat tube measurement only works in a level top
tube world. Reach and Stack are probably better measurements to use
than seat tube and top tube.

Bill


On Mar 8, 2:58 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-03-08 at 17:10 -0800, Bill M. wrote:
> Sticking to c-c or c-t seat tube measurement only works in a level top
> tube world. Reach and Stack are probably better measurements to use
> than seat tube and top tube.

What are "reach" and "stack"?

[William]

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/stack.html

stack = height of top of the headtube above the center of the BB
Reach = horizontal distance between the center of the BB and the center of the headtube at the top

[Mike]

On Mar 8, 9:01 am, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Oh, you sold the QB. Just not putting enough miles on it? Now what will I
> borrow this summer??? :-)

Don't worry, I've got you covered. I still have my LHT, Hilsen, CC and
Bryant randonneur.

As for measuring bikes, I wish it could be standardized at CtC.

--mike

[Philip Williamson]

Fantastic service. Wow.
And here's an illustration of how the frame can "float" between your
contact points. Based on frame angles, bikes with the same tube
lengths can fit very differently, and bikes with very different tube
lengths can fit the same. The bizarro-world of non-intuitive
relationships: http://www.biketinker.com/2011/bike-resources/bike-fit-geometry-relationships/

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com
Know of a Bay Area art/design job? Let me know! www.philipwilliamson.com

On Mar 8, 3:36 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> size is in the eye of the beholder.  Folks don't rant that a Medium at
> Banana Republic and a Medium at Old Navy fit differently (OK, perhaps they
> do).
>
> Seriously though, Grant will tell you it all comes down to getting your
> three contact spots in the right places.  Feet, tuckus, hands.  Where the
> frame is floating in the middle is mainly just looks (which is more than
> nothing, but less than everything)
>
> Want to know what made me glad I gave money to Mike?  When I told him I was
> dwelling on the numbers, he sent me a Park branded fit chart pdf, and asked
> me to fill it out for a bike that fit (in my case, the Hilsen).  Critical
> numbers were seat height, setback, reach, and bars below saddle.  I did the
> measurements and sent them in.  Mike then took the numbers and first agreed

> that the 59 was closest.  Then he took *his* 59 and set it up with my seat

[William]

It was a last minute decision, but I'm still going to run the Hilsen for the SFR 300k tomorrow.  Maybe I can get the scratch together to build a 700c dynamo wheel and have the BMC ready for the 400 next month.