Nuance of the rebate system

[William]

This is a minor thing, and one that you've probably picked up on, but I missed it.  

If you were eligible you got a rebate.  You can use that rebate whenever you like within 120 days, or it's gone.  Moving forward, when you buy something, you get a rebate credit that you can use within 120 days.  You'll carry a balance, and you choose when you use it and how much to use, etc.  The thing I missed is that on any invoice where you use any rebate money, you don't earn rebate credit, no matter how big the invoice.  

Example.  You have a tiny $5 rebate, and you want to buy something cheap, like a $6 tube, and something expensive like a $2000 Atlantis frame.  If you put that on the same invoice, and use your rebate to pay for part of it, you get no rebate credit on your balance.  

Instead, the way you should do it (and Riv states it clearly on the rebate page http://rivbike.tumblr.com/rebates) is to put the tube on one invoice, use your rebate and pay then net $1.  Buy the Atlantis on another invoice, so you get your $100 rebate credit.  

I went in to Riv HQ on a Saturday, and bought 4 things, used my rebate and paid ~$100 out of pocket.  Had I split it into two invoices I would have about 5 bucks in my rebate account.  Not a big deal for me, but it could be a big deal for you if you are going to throw together a big invoice and use your rebate on it.  So the general guideline is that when you want to spend your rebate, try to do it on an invoice that totals up to something close to your rebate balance.  

[Peter Pesce]

Hmm. I did not know that. Something tells me this new system won't last.

If this is the way people have to use the system, Riv will now have a lot of little sales with very little revenue - it's going to be like "The Price Is Right" where the game is to get your shopping cart as close to $0.01 over your rebate as possible - and they will create twice as many orders and shipping tickets as everyone splits their purchases.

I honestly never gave a thought to my rebate - it showed up as a "gift" in January. It was a very nice gesture of customer appreciation that required no effort on my part. But now it's a game where you have to pay attention or you won't get the credits, or they'll expire, etc. Now it's become all about what's being taken away, or not gotten in the first place.

I'll probably just go back to not giving it a thought.

-Pete in CT
Loving his new-to-me Quickbeam

[Anne Paulson]

This just sounds like a mistake. That is, I believe the situation is
as you say, William, but it's foolish and ought to be fixed. It's
pointlessly confusing, and will deprive some customers of rebates that
Rivendell ought to be giving them. To be sure, a customer shouldn't
get rebate credit on rebates. But they should get credit for the rest
of their purchase.

So, if I have a $100 rebate, and I buy a $3500 bike, I pay $3400 and
my rebate covers the rest of the $100. The $3400 I paid should count
as money I spent and should be eligible for rebate credit, because it
*is* money I spent. I shouldn't have to buy the pedals on one order
and the rest of the bike on another order just to get my rebate.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/ajjb4AseRGEJ.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[William]

For the folks who do think about it, it encourages folks to give Riv a chance to sell them something every few months.  I hope it works for them in that context.  I've got a silly little $4 "ebay bucks" credit that expires on Feb 2, and it has me looking on ebay for something inexpensive to spend it on, so I guess it works on a particular type of person.  Who's that cheap bastard I see in the mirror?

[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

I see this from 2 sides...

As a Riv customer... I like the old system better. Getting the once a year lump sum felt like a gift with substance. The new system feels like a quarter from grandma. I remember reading somewhere in one of the spiels about charitable contributions that donating $10,000 to one charity has significantly more value than donating $1 each to 10,000 charities. I feel like the same principal applies to the old v new rebate system. 

But I also see this as a guy who has worked at small business and as a former small business owner... and having visited Riv HQ. I don't believe this is some sort of scheme to pad anyone's salary. I have no doubt that Riv spends a lot of time financially treading water. Giving away a bunch of merchandise in the first quarter of every year under the old system can't be helpful. Spreading that dispursement out in small chunks throughout the year has got to be easier to absorb. 

I'd rather have the occasional $5-10 than have them discontinue the rebates all together. There are places I shop because they're cheap but my attraction to Riv goes beyond that. The rebate is gravy.      

[Joe Bernard]

I liked the old system better, but don't really care much. I'll just ignore the rebate situation and order stuff when I need it.

[newenglandbike]

+1.    Rebates are a bonus, so however Rivendell want to do them is OK with me.   I won't be paying attention.

[John Bennett]

Dear William, and everyone,

The new software that we're using has made many things possible, and
has, I think, made online ordering and keeping track of purchases
easier. That said, it has changed a few things, too, and we're still
working through them.

The system has a few limitations that we're addressing, and your
illustration below may be one of those. We'll figure it out, and we
will always advise people about how to get the most from their
rebates.

The rebates have always expired (at the end of the year), and while
the new rebates technically expire sooner, the grace period is
incredibly long. One additional new benefit to membership is that once
you buy something, you're "in" forever, or for as long as we're
around, which will be a long time. We no longer charge $20 a year,
which will hopefully off-set any changes to the new rebate system.

You are always welcome to call and talk about any of this, or
anything. We're around: (800) 345-3918. If you have specific concerns
about your rebate, or how the whole thing is working, email Dave
(da...@rivbike.com). He knows this stuff inside and out.

Best regards, and thank you for your support.

John @ RBW

On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a minor thing, and one that you've probably picked up on, but I
> missed it.
>
> If you were eligible you got a rebate.  You can use that rebate whenever
> you like within 120 days, or it's gone.  Moving forward, when you buy
> something, you get a rebate credit that you can use within 120 days.
>  You'll carry a balance, and you choose when you use it and how much to
> use, etc.  The thing I missed is that on any invoice where you use any
> rebate money, you don't earn rebate credit, no matter how big the invoice.
>
> Example.  You have a tiny $5 rebate, and you want to buy something cheap,
> like a $6 tube, and something expensive like a $2000 Atlantis frame.  If
> you put that on the same invoice, and use your rebate to pay for part of
> it, you get no rebate credit on your balance.
>
> Instead, the way you should do it (and Riv states it clearly on the rebate

> pagehttp://rivbike.tumblr.com/rebates) is to put the tube on one invoice,

[John Bennett]

In retail, there's always talk of "features and benefits," so we
generally talk about rebates as a "benefit" of membership or your
purchase or whatever, but, in reality, they are a "thank you" for
buying from us, and keeping us going in a tough economy.

Thank you, one and all. We're here because of you, and we appreciate
it way more than the rebate can say.

John @ RBW

[Bill Carter]

John,
Normally when stores try to sign me up for their "benefits" programs I
decline for this very reason. Life's too complicated already, and
it's just too much to keep up with. But I have seen such programs work
quite well, like the one with the drug store that my wife and I
frequent. Because we are regular customers we get a very nice discount
on everything we buy (other than Rx's) simply by giving them our
discount cards to scan, or if we forget the card a phone number works
in their system just as well. After many years in sales, marketing
and customer service, I can say that any customer benefit program that
becomes too much nuisance and complication rapidly devolves from a
positive to a negative for customer retention and goodwill. Just
stating a general proposition. Make your own application and use your
own judgement, just remember the KISS principle. It became cliche for
good reason.
Bill Carter

[René Sterental]

 The way I'd like to see the system be implemented, if possible, would be similar to the way airline miles work. As long as I keep placing new orders before the 120 days expire, my rebate points never die. When I have enough for a new order, that's when I activate them and use them. This way I can wait until I have enough and minimize the hassle of having to split orders to match the rebate points I have.

 

This would be a win-win scenario. RBW gets the recurring orders and we get to use our rebates whenever we want as long as we don't let them expire.

 

René

[John Bennett]

Dear René and Bill and everyone,

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Much appreciated. We are
working within the limitations of the system (Volusion) that allows us
to run our own web site and ordering system in-house.

"In-house" means us. Mostly Dave. There may be ways to do some of the
things that bigger businesses do with their benefits programs, and
we're continually exploring those options.

By keeping it in-house, we can also keep it affordable, which, in
turn, allows us to keep the wolf from the door in every sense of the
expression. That said, we certainly don't want to discourage business
by complicating something that should be simple.

I promise you: if there's an easier, cleaner way to do something, and
it doesn't cost a qazillion dollars to do it, that's always the way we
will be heading. Thank you for your patience and continued support
while we steer the boat in that direction.

Best regards,

John @ RBW

[René Sterental]

No worries John, we'll be there to help out make it easy as well if/when we can.

 

René

[Bill Carter]

This is no way will affect my appreciation for your many years of
dedicated and exemplary customer service. I am sure I speak for the
vast majority of the list members. Not all agree with everything you
do (like double TTs, but let's not restart that debate) but in many
years of following this forum I have rarely seen anything but high
praise for your kind and gracious service. If you want to have a
reward/rebate program or not will be fine, just if you do have one
don't make your purchasers jump through too many hoops please. FWIW,
my $.02. Thanks for the thoughtful reply to our concerns.

[Minh]

For me, i can understand and accept the 120 day limit thing, if i
don't buy something again in 120 days i can deal with my rebate
expiring. I also understand the basic reason why they would not want
to give a rebate on an order where you use a rebate, someone smarter
will have to work out the math but i would think this is kind of a
double-dip (i think, not sure).

I'm not sure if this is a lot of money overall but can see how on
paper it could look bad but in practice with the minimum amount for
shipping etc, would it be a problem in practice? I think the use case
William presents is fair, that a small rebate on a larger order
cancels out an otherwise legitimate (largish) rebate.

All of this is just a lot of words though, i think i just won't worry
about it too much on the 4-5 orders i make every year :)

[Andrew]

My only quibble with the new system is the points to dollars conversion: 20 points to the dollar is quirky... why not use "nickels" instead of points, or just go all the way and show a balance of rebate credit in dollars and cents? But overall, I think the new system is just fine - it works for those who want to maximize their rebates, and it's also not automatic, so if you prefer to let the balance expire, that works, too.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Dave Rivbike]

Thanks for the comments. I first hand understand the confusion, I set
it up! That's why I'm also so proud to announce that it's a'changin.
It's currently an overall improvement, methinks, over the OLD WAY of
rebates but not perfect I admit so we're sweetening the deal.

All the comments make perfect sense and the limitations we have in
place are there because that's the way the software decided it to be.
Not because we thought it should be that way. I've pulled out more
hair about rebates old and new than anyone.

So not getting any rebate on orders in which credit was used has to
stay. There's no way around that, for now, but other merchants
including us have put in requests to have that changed on the next
update. It may just happen but don't hold your breath. That's why I
made sure to mention it on the Rebate page.

The $1 credit creaming a rebate on a $2000 frame is the perfect storm
example. I don't defend that quirk, but it's very easy to prevent that
scenario, especially since you have to order the frames by phone.
 It's their way of preventing the rebate-on-rebate losing money
scenario.  Fingers crossed it's resolved (allowing partial credit) in
an upcoming update, but for now we can manually adjust it IF YOU BUY A
FRAME/BIKE and that happens. It will happen maybe 20 times. We'll give
you the credit for the non rebatey amount. Just let us know.


I've done so already on the SimpleOnes that you CAN buy through the
site presently. But as for spare nickels and dollars here and there on
anything less than a frame, you're on your own for now. I don't think
it's too hard to plan around.  Especially when you read the rest of
this post.

So we're working with that limitation (no credit on credit, which
isn't entirely unfair) and changing the other stuff in a way I think
everyone will prefer because it gives you maximum flexibility (even
more than the now-preferred rebates of old). It's surely as fair a
free money giveaway as anyone can think of.

1. Expiration Dates: EMBIGGENED

The whole idea of expiration was to get you to come back and buy stuff
again, along with us thanking you for buying stuff. We need more
frequent orders.  We said 150 days, but the grace period was huger
than we'll ever admit.

And then there's this development: once you "redeem" the points, it
turns into a gift credit on your account THAT DOES NOT EXPIRE. So
redeem your 1000 rebate points for $50 in credit within that
expiration date and the $50 sits on your account forever until you
place your next order, and then it's AUTOMATICALLY applied. In that
way there's really no expiration. It's already that way.

But now, after one month of seeing how it works in real life, we're
upping the ante to a whopping 1000 days. That's just under three years
to save up all the points you want then redeem them all at once for a
huge purchase or little by little for smaller purchases as you see
fit. You decide when and how much you want to use. If you don't want
to use credit, just don't redeem. You're still in charge of making
sure the credit you're about to use is about the same as your order
total because of the aforementioned limitation.

2. No Rebate Points on orders that have even partial credit used:
STAYS AS IS

Can't get around it folks. No way. By using the rebate at all you
agree to this fact. It has this caveat. You've been warned and can
totally plan around it without too much fuss.

The 20 points for one buck / nickel per point system is again, just
working with what we've got. It's how you get 5%. It is, as you
mention, possible to change the numbers so that you'd have tens of
thousands of points to cash in for actual dollar amounts, but I just
though it more clear to show a $1000 purchase turned into 1000 points
the next day. Makes sense right? Maybe the wording could be clearer.
Your available balance there is you total in pretax purchases. Bust
out your phone and multiply that number by 0.05 and you've got your
amount.

I hope everyone understands that we're just trying to make everything
better for our customers and will continue to adapt. This new improved
rebate system now allows you to save up loads of points without
worrying about expiration so much and be in control of the cashing
out. If there's unanimous calls of "this is lame" out there at the end
of the year, we can go back to the old once/year way with a strict 1
year expiration.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I cannot believe how intentionally and immediately responsive Dave, John et al. are being about this. Very Riv-esque. And much appreciated.

But really, it isn't that hard to work around the "no rebate on rebate-fueled purchases" rule, if you want to do so.

Anyway, I know we all appreciate the thank you that the rebate represents. I'm going to try to use mine, but not be very worried if I miss once in a while. A contribution to the cause.

1. Expiration Dates: EMBIGGENED

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
****************************************************

To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.
****************************************************
****************************************************

This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any email) and any printout thereof.

Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
****************************************************
==============================================================================

[René Sterental]

Dave,

 

I think your new implementation is great! Good job!!! :-)

 

René

[Scott Mead]

In the past, the yearly rebate was a really nice surprise gift ... and
nothing I really thought about as I made purchases during the year.
Since the system has changed, I may think about it just a hair more,
but it's still something I'll see (as John mentioned) as a very nice
"thank you" and not some kind of "member benefit" that I'm entitled
to. I understand that this economy tends to put us all in a mode of
trying to maximize every possible dollar, though, so being aware of
how the new system works is a good thing.

If it helps make life easier, perhaps we could just work it like this:

Since the rebates expire in 120 days (or thereabouts), just buy stuff
without worrying about it for each 120-day period ... then at the end
of that period, buy something nice for yourself that equals your
available rebate and start over. In other words, get the stuff you
need without thinking of rebates from January through April ... then
on April 30, use your available rebate dollars to get something extra.
Do the same for May-August and September-December. Just mark your
calendar so you don't forget ... but John did say "the grace period is
incredibly long", so I'm sure if you do forget, you won't be denied.

Looking at it that way, you buy stuff as usual and get a free (or
close enough) gift for yourself 3 times each year! Maybe that's the
spirit in which it was intended?

[jimD]

+1 on this.

Rivendell is a business I support because they are a great business.

-JimD