parts made in places where worker conditions are fairly reasonable

[Seth Vidal]

I've been specing out a potential bicycle build and I'm trying to see
what parts I can get from places which have pretty reasonable working
conditions and rights of workers - especially something resembling a
living wage, etc.

So I am thinking places like the US, Germany, Switzerland, Japan,
Australia, NZ, the UK, Canada, portions of taiwan, etc. (RE: Taiwan
and Japan, I'm working on the basis that given Rivendell's level of
precision in their corporate behavior that they would would not do
business with folks if they thought the workers building their bikes
were being exploited or treated badly)

I'm trying to nail down manufacturing locations for a number of products.

Some of them are easy - they list them on the site directly.

But - can anyone tell me where DT-swiss rims (for example) are made?

How about the manufacturer of any of the Grand Bois non-tire parts?

How about cassette manufacturers? Is it pretty much shimano, sram and sunrace?

Deraillers? Is it the same as the above?

I was hoping someone else has already been through this little game
and had suggestions for me.

Thanks,
-sv

[Sean Whelan]

All of the Campagnolo stuff I have says "Made in Italy."

They make cassettes, headsets, cranksets, etc.

You an buy  used or vintage Campagnolo Friction Shifters / Seatposts / Brake Levers / Rims / Hubs as well.

?

Sean

---

From: Seth Vidal <skv...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:41 PM
Subject: [RBW] parts made in places where worker conditions are fairly reasonable

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[franklyn]

In many ways, workers in Taiwan have better conditions than those in
the U.S., Taiwan has one of the best universal healthcare system in
the world (according to NYTimes columnist and Nobel laureate Paul
Krugman), and public transportation systems that are pretty unmatched
(extensive and inexpensive subway systems in two cities and high-speed
rail system that run up and down the island). I don't think you need
to feel bad if parts are made in Taiwan, they probably live better
than we do here.

Franklyn

On Oct 5, 1:56 pm, Sean Whelan <strummer_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All of the Campagnolo stuff I have says "Made in Italy."
>
> They make cassettes, headsets, cranksets, etc.
>
> You an buy  used or vintage Campagnolo Friction Shifters / Seatposts / Brake Levers / Rims / Hubs as well.
>
> ?
>
> Sean
>
> ________________________________

> From: Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[cyclotourist]

ActionTec cassettes, made right here in Californey.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

[Michael_S]

I know Miche parts are made in Italy. I have their Racing box hubs on two bikes. They make needle bearing headsets and other parts too.

 

I'm struggling to think of drop bar bike levers made in somewhere other than Taiwan ( which fits the bill according to Franklyn). 

 

DT Swiss rims are made in Switzerland from what I've read.

 

~mike

[robert zeidler]

Just buy old Campy. No questions there!

[dpco]

How about Nitto? They manufacture their products in Japan. There's a Youtube on Nitto.
Don C,

[rcnute]

http://www.korea-dpr.com/business.htm

Personnel are highly motivated!

Ryan

[Peter Morgano]

Erm that is North Korea.  I do business with South Korea and they are excellent people to work with (that is where bike stuff is made when it says made in Korea since most of her world has an embargo against North Korea). Just FYI.

[Jeremy Till]

Quoth the Compass website, at least about handlebars:

"All Grand Bois handlebars are made in Japan by Nitto."

At some point a few years ago I remember seeing an online photo tour of one of Shimano's wheelbuilding plants (Malaysia, maybe?) and it seemed a fairly pleasant place; of course, it is only one among many, I'm sure.

In general though, given the economic crisis, the world is not a very friendly place for worker's rights at the moment (even/especially in Europe). 

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Good point, Jeremy. The notion that there are "good countries" (e.g., Republic of China) and "bad countries" (e.g., People's Republic of China) is rather simplistic. There are plenty of exploited workers in every country, including the US. Buying (or trying to buy) from specific manufacturers that observe good practices is a sounder strategy, IMO. I don't know if the folks at Riv personally visit every one of their suppliers, but it is clear they care about people, and not just profit, and that is one reason why I feel good about giving them my business.

David G, Madison WI (where the governor seems to be on a mission to weaken worker's rights) 

[Seth Vidal]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 7:16 PM, franklyn <sin...@msn.com> wrote:
> In many ways, workers in Taiwan have better conditions than those in
> the U.S., Taiwan has one of the best universal healthcare system in
> the world (according to NYTimes columnist and Nobel laureate Paul
> Krugman), and public transportation systems that are pretty unmatched
> (extensive and inexpensive subway systems in two cities and high-speed
> rail system that run up and down the island). I don't think you need
> to feel bad if parts are made in Taiwan, they probably live better
> than we do here.
>

I agree with this. I know that, as Jan Said, some places are labeling
as Taiwan when they are outsourcing elsewhere. This is why I said some
places in Taiwan. and this is also why I ask about where things are
actually made, rather than taking it as it is sometimes assumed.

My major concern is that I'm getting products from places where they
do not undervalue the importance of their workforce.

-sv

[Seth Vidal]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:07 PM, dpco <dpc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about Nitto? They manufacture their products in Japan. There's a Youtube
> on Nitto.

Indeed and I'm a big fan of their goods.

-sv

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Oct 5, 1:41 pm, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> How about the manufacturer of any of the Grand Bois non-tire parts?
>

> - Grand Bois tires are made by Panaracer in Japan. Their stems,
> handlebars and racks come from Nitto, also in Japan.
> - Grand Bois rims and cassette hubs are made in Taiwan.
> - Compass Bicycles' new cranks also will be made in Taiwan.
>
> Both countries have excellent labor standards.
>
> There are two reasons bike parts are made in foreign countries:
> Expertise and cost. Forging a bicycle crank requires specialized
> tooling to broach the square taper. I don't know of any North American
> forging house that has this tooling. Even TA has their cranks forged
> in Taiwan.
>
> Cost is a different issue. In the mainstream market, every penny
> counts, and labor-intensive production is moved to whomever offers the
> lowest bid. In Taiwan, this often means sub-sub-contracting to China.
> When our engineer visited all prospective companies in Taiwan who
> wanted to make our cranks, he found that many were little more than an
> office, who then would sub-contract the job to mainland China. Of
> course, the label still would say "Made in Taiwan."
>
> This type of outsourcing to the cheapest bidder not only has
> implications for labor standards, but also quality. It is not uncommon
> to substitute a cheaper alloy. As a result, you find chainrings that
> are labeled as 7075 aluminum, but wear so quickly that there is little
> doubt that they are 6000-series. That way, the company could underbid
> all the other companies who had to factor in the higher cost of the
> raw material... and they got the bid.
>
> When you work with reputable companies, you don't have to worry too
> much about these issues, but of course, the higher quality comes at a
> higher cost.

Jan,
thanks for the response. This is exactly why I asked. I take it you
are confident that your manufacturers are playing fair on their
outsourcing.

I agree higher quality comes at a higher cost and I expect that. But
I've also found you can get expensive goods which are, in fact, quite
cheap.

-sv

ps: speaking of parts from reputable makers: any word on when the
compass cranks are going to be available?

[Michael_S]

I think that cost is the sole driver to place of manufacture. There are many competent Broach houses in the US who could certainly do square taper cranks. I work with them on a regular basis making parts for Rocket Engines.  And they would be willing to make the appropriate tooling if the business case were there. But based on US labor rates those Companies could never compete with the shops in Taiwan. We would be paying $1000 for a crankset.

 

~mike

[Michael Hechmer]

"We would be paying $1000 for a crankset."

That's simply not true.  White Ind., as just one US manufacturer, makes multiple cranks, including a state of the art VBC dbl crank, an excellent triple, and tandem cranks,  Most of their cranks sell for around $220.

I am glad that Jan Heine & Grant Peterson are careful to avoid purchasing from grossly unethical suppliers but there is more to it than that.  Buying anything, either food, clothing, or brake sets, from your neighbors helps to build community and strengthen the fabric of our society.  I'll bet that's a big part of why many on this list buy from LBS & from RBW.  When the "low cost" producer becomes so, not by excelling in mfg. technology but by paying low wages and manipulating currency rates then working people's wages get driven down world wide and all the money collects in the hands of a few.  I am sure that both asia and america have big enough markets to support their own manufacturing structure at wages that are fair to their own people.

Finally it is unclear how sustainable this system is even for a small company. Grant manufactured his frames in Jpn. for many decades based on lower costs.  But that lower cost was based largely on currency manipulation.  Now that Japan is unable to do that, prices have risen dramatically and he is forced to look for other sources or try to work with the now seriously malnourished US mfg. base.  What happens when China & Korea are no longer able to sustain undervalued currencies in the face of permanent, huge trade surpluses?  Will the next generation of frames be made in Afghanistan? 

Over the last few years I have bought BBs from Phil Wood, hubs, cranks, and pedals from White Ind., brakes from Pauls, a tandem frame from Bilenky, made with US mfg. Tange tubing,.  I haven't regretted any of those purchases.

michael

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Seth, I admire and support what you are trying to do, but I think it's best to not get too hung up on country of manufacture. Here's why: We sell a fair number of Surly bikes, which is a "local" brand in Minneapolis. People who are concerned about such things tend to focus on the fact that the frames are not actually manufactured in Minneapolis, but in Taiwan. I have heard that the landed cost of the Long Haul Trucker or Cross-Check frameset is around $75, which may be inexact, but seems close enough with the economies of scale. This means that of the $450ish MSRP, less than 20% is manufacturing and shipping to the Surly distribution points. For all the focus on manufacturing country, 80-85% of the money you spend on a Surly frameset goes somewhere else. "Somewhere else" is the designers, customer service people, shipping personnel, and marketing/sales staff, most of whom are local to me, and several of whom are personal friends. Around 40% goes to the LBS where you buy the frame. In other words, 80% of the price of your Taiwanese Surly frameset stays in your own country, and half of that stays with your LBS. I would imagine that Rivendell has a larger percentage tied up in manufacturing their framesets, which works for them because, by and large, there is no LBS profit margin in the equation.

It's sort of depressing to chase your money around after you've spent it. Unfortunately, you can only control the first place it gets spent. After that, it gets complicated, and somewhere in the supply chain is a guy who beats his wife, votes for politicians you despise, eats the wrong food, and blows his cash on slave-made stuff at Wal-Mart. If we follow this rabbit hole far enough, we may conclude that it's better to keep the money in the sock drawer, and ride only scavenged Schwinn Varsities...or better yet, not earn money in the first place, and live as a monk.

[Garth]

Jim,

    Those are very good points!   I'll only add.... 

 Can we truly know what is best for others? .. .... .  or are we in the habit of thinking we know what's best for another based on what we believe to be best (based on our completely arbitrary life experience) and telling others what they want?  There are levels and scales of this of course.... but we all do this to some extent. Is our life so easily and perfectly managed we have the time to perfectly manage others too? LoL!   Yeah ... a good look within myself in the mirror ... and i get my answers.

   
No one truly decides for us... yet we may choose to give some choices away. We all make decisions for ourselves.  . . .we do things that we believe will make our lives appear to be a little better.  There's no right or wrong answers  . .. only answers that feel better or worse within the confines of oneself.

[islaysteve]

Lots of good and thought-provoking points made here by several people.  I'll just add something that occurs to me.  We, on this group, are consumers.  I mean that both in the general and specific sense.  We are all certainly consumers of rather expensive, high-quality bicycles.  For some of us, that may be the one area in our lives that "consumes" most of our cash.  But I kind of doubt that that is the case for most here.  I think there are quite a few of us that fit the profile with me:  Aging boomers with a comfortable amount of disposable income who spend it not only on lugged-steel bicycles, but on the more normal items of Western life.  Like a fair amount of clothing, appliances, and electronics.  Not to mention automobiles.  So the point I am getting to is, I certainly couldn't afford to buy American in all of those areas.  Maybe not even in one of them, exclusively.  It would be nice.  We choose here to focus on the purchases that fuel our passion, and that is certainly an appropriate discussion to have in this forum.  I will think about the points raised here when I make my next bicycle-related purchase, and other purchases as well.  My last one was from RBW, and both items, I think are made in Europe.   And I thank Grant for making those products, and that knowledge, available.  Cheers, Steve 

[Michael_S]

The White Ind cranks are machined from billet rather than cold forged. The cold forging process increases the mechanical strength of the crank arm and spider making a much more stiff and durable design.  

 

 The manufacure of such an item is doable in the US, it's just that the cost of tooling and process development to optimize the fabrication sequence is a big cost hurdle to overcome.  The other issue is market, as the big 3 have pushed the crank bottom bracket design away from square tapers. The square taper crankset is really a niche market.  

 

~mike 

 

 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Another thing that occurred to me is that manufacture, which I think of as the fabrication and finishing of a product from raw materials, is most likely going to happen in a place where conditions are "fairly reasonable", since manufacturing implies a certain level of industrialization, access to seaports, etc. It's the mining and smelting of metals in some war-torn African or South Asian country or the Chinese hinterland where I imagine the exploitation of human labor is a given.

[Jim]

On Oct 6, 3:15 pm, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> This type of outsourcing to the cheapest bidder not only has
> implications for labor standards, but also quality. It is not uncommon
> to substitute a cheaper alloy. As a result, you find chainrings that
> are labeled as 7075 aluminum, but wear so quickly that there is little
> doubt that they are 6000-series. That way, the company could underbid
> all the other companies who had to factor in the higher cost of the
> raw material... and they got the bid.

Could have also skipped or screwed up the temper.

Jim

[Jim]

I guess supplying the wrong alloy or the wrong temper are the same
problem in my book. You can run into this same issue when purchasing
(as some insurance companies permit) non-factory steel service parts
for auto crash repair. There is a big supply base in China for these
parts, but they either don't know, or don't care about the
manufacturers specifications. If it's magnetic, sinks in water and
rusts, it's steel.....and that's good enough.

Jim

On Oct 8, 11:09 am, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> The chainring maker doesn't temper the aluminum. It is supplied as
> plates that are already tempered. If you buy from a reputable
> supplier, then the temper is guaranteed. You can get aluminum from
> cheaper sources, but the quality is not assured.
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.http://www.compasscycle.com
>
> Follow our blog athttp://janheine.wordpress.com/