These cranks stink so good!

[William]

Let me see if I remember the full list of gripes about Compass' reissue of Rene Herse Cranks:

1.  They only come in 171mm ?!  Lame

2.  They cost $385 ?!  Lame

3.  You can't get a big chainring ?!  Lame

4.  Proprietary rings ?!  Lame

5.  Three bolts  ?!  Lame

6.  No ramps or pins or shift assist of any kind ?!  Lame

7.  Made in Taiwan  ?!  Lame

Nevertheless, I'd still really love to have a few sets of them, and now they are accepting orders for them.  

http://www.compasscycle.com/Cranks.html

If you bought them for me I'd run them on both of my go fast bikes in a 48/32.  I'd run a 46/30 or maybe even a 44/28 on my brevet bikes.  Maybe it's time to liquidate some more stuff....

[PATRICK MOORE]

I don't think they are lame at all in any of these respects. Compass are quite clear about their reasons for these limitations, if limitations they are and their reasons make sense.

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[William]

I was reciting the list of other people's complaints.  I think they are very appealing.  

[PATRICK MOORE]

Aha! Corrected! Good!

I wish I could afford a couple of sets.

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 3:21 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was reciting the list of other people's complaints.  I think they are very appealing.  

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[Ryan Ray]

I wouldn't calle the three bolt chainrings proprietary: just an old standard. If you have old Rene Herse cranks you could use the new rings.

The only thing I think is lame: $385. But I understand. Right now I have hacked my vintage Deore triple into an extreme double 48-28 with some single speed bolts. I guess I'll stick with it for a while longer.

[William]

If there is identically one manufacturer sourcing a replacement, I'd call that proprietary.  Even though Herse used that BCD in the past, they don't make rings anymore.  Back then you could only get a Herse crankset with a bike.  I get your point, though.

$385 does hurt, and it's only going to come down if they are wildly popular, and lets face it, they won't be.  At the end of the day, though, it's hard (impossible) to find a cheaper crankset that is lighter, lower Q and offers a wider choice of rings.  White Industries are $40 cheaper, weigh ~100g more, have similar (half-proprietary) ring choices, and a wider Q factor (150mm vs 142mm), but they are MUSA and come in lengths.  

[Philip Williamson]

I think the White Industries cranks are CNC machined, not "near-net
forged" like the Compass/Herse crank, but I'm not sure what WI means
by "box style" construction.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[Ryan Ray]

The Velo Orange "Grand Cru" 50.4 bcd cranks:

Q-factor around 139mm

165mm, 170mm, 175mm lengths

easy to find vintage chain ring options

Chain rings from 50 down to 28 will fit

550g

unfortunate VO type all over them

$200

Compass Herse Cranks:

Q-factor around 142mm

171 length

not easy to find vintage chain ring options if possible at all

Chain rings from 50 down to 24 will fit

540g

small, beautiful rene herse logo

$385

I'm not saying the Rene Herse cranks aren't amazing and higher quality. I also think the RH cranks are the best looking cranks I've ever seen. If I had ridden PBP every year for the last 5 years on the same bike I'd be pre-ordering one of these cranks right now. As it is I'm still playing with just the right chain ring set up on my bike before choosing the VO/GC 50.4 cranks or the Alpina on sale at VO right now.

- Ryan

[cyclotourist]

I would have liked to have seen them recreate the TA Zephyr cranks.  I mean if you're going to the effort & expense of all new tooling, do it for something that is not near-proprietary and that a subset of the Retrogrouch multiverse is always clamoring for, myself included. 

Just you wait till I'm King of the World!

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David
Redlands, CA

[Jan Heine]

I am a bit surprised that people think $ 385 is expensive for a top-of-
the-line crankset. Almost all other high-end cranks are more
expensive, because other companies have more overhead:

- Sugino OX801D: $ 530 (includes BB).
- TA Pro 5 vis: $ 590
- Shimano Dura-Ace: $ 500+ (includes BB)
- Rene Herse: $ 385

Sure, you can make budget cranks for less, but you get what you pay
for. We priced the Rene Herse cranks attractively, so we can sell
significant numbers and thus ensure chainring availability.

The reasons for the proprietary bolt circle are simple: None of the
common bolt circles allow useful combinations like 48-32 and 46-30.
Basically, René Herse took the 1934 Stronglight cranks (now better
known from copies made by TA, Velo-Orange and others) and eliminated
the weak spots (fiddly, undersized bolts, need to remove cranks each
time you remove chainrings), while keeping the good parts. We took
Herse's design and updated it for the 21st century by using modern
materials, a slight slant of the arms to improve ankle clearance and a
few other tweaks to make it work with 10-speed.

More about the rationale behind these cranks can be found here:
http://janheine.wordpress.com/category/components/rene-herse-cranks/

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

[David Yu Greenblatt]

What was so good about the TA Zephyr other than a nice finish?
This new/old Rene Herse crankset has some nice features compared to 110mm BCD cranksets like the Zephyr, including lower Q and the option to set it up as a truly wide range double. Plus it is beautiful and light weight.
If 110mm BCD cranksets meet your needs there are many nice ones, including the Zephyr and Ritchey Logic, to be found on eBay.

David G, Madison WI

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:03 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would have liked to have seen them recreate the TA Zephyr cranks.  I mean if you're going to the effort & expense of all new tooling, do it for something that is not near-proprietary and that a subset of the Retrogrouch multiverse is always clamoring for, myself included. 

Just you wait till I'm King of the World!

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Velo Orange "Grand Cru" 50.4 bcd cranks:

Q-factor around 139mm

165mm, 170mm, 175mm lengths

easy to find vintage chain ring options

Chain rings from 50 down to 28 will fit

550g

unfortunate VO type all over them

$200

Compass Herse Cranks:

Q-factor around 142mm

171 length

not easy to find vintage chain ring options if possible at all

Chain rings from 50 down to 24 will fit

540g

small, beautiful rene herse logo

$385

I'm not saying the Rene Herse cranks aren't amazing and higher quality. I also think the RH cranks are the best looking cranks I've ever seen. If I had ridden PBP every year for the last 5 years on the same bike I'd be pre-ordering one of these cranks right now. As it is I'm still playing with just the right chain ring set up on my bike before choosing the VO/GC 50.4 cranks or the Alpina on sale at VO right now.

- Ryan

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

[Jan Heine]

> 7.  Made in Taiwan  ?!  Lame

We have the new cranks made in Taiwan, because that is where the
knowledge to forge aluminum bicycle cranks resides today. TA has their
blanks forged in Taiwan, and I believe Campagnolo did the same until
they switched to carbon. We'd love to produce closer to home, but it
is hard enough to bring a new product to market without trying to
teach a manufacturer how to make something they never have made
before. There is a reason why all US-made cranks are CNC-machined and
not forged.

We are working with the best forge in Taiwan - our engineer visited
them all before we selected them - so the cost is no less than it
would cost in the U.S. Compass Bicycles is committed to sourcing
products from the best possible makers, as close as possible to home.
This means tires and fenders from Japan, lights from Germany, but
leather fender washers from the West Coast and some machined sub-
assemblies from Chicago.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles

[cyclotourist]

Cold forged.
Low Q. 
Readily available chainrings (110/74/58, although the 58 is harder to find). 
Inner ring that goes down to 22T. 
Straight, not splayed out arms. 
Square not oval arms. 
The below-mentioned nice finish.

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[William]

My original post was listing all the gripes I've heard from others whenever these cranks come up in conversation.  The rest of my post was about how I want several sets of them. 

I think they are spectacular, have been waiting for months for them to become available and want to purchase multiple sets. 

[Phil Bickford]

Nice to look at - old-timey and all.

Works with a ten speed chains? Mmmm I wouldn't want to have to make
it work. 4mm width, must get tapered some for the teeth though.

Lets see, for $299.99 one could get a Campy alloy cross crank that was
built for ten speed systems, but has full pins and machined ramping to
aid shifting on the 46/36 rings. Made by a fairly good quality
manufacturer. But doesn't look 100 years old.

Quite light weight though - 540grams without the bolts. Wonder how
they did that? Must be the near net forging that produces a piece with
less materials. Less machining necessary. Interesting.

Maybe they'll test them.

Phil B

[Michael Hechmer]

So the WI cranks are cnc machined, so what. I've never heard of a WI crank failure, and if one did fail I'm certain WI would make good on it, no question. The 8 mm of additional Q is insignificant, as is the 100 g.

In the last issue of BQ, Jan Heine admitted that two bikes with 8 lbs of difference in weight rode very similarly, yet he always comments on a few grams of weight difference when he reviews the best of contemporary US mfg. like Pauls and Whites.  I don't get why he does that.

I have the WI VCB Road Cranks on my Rambouillet and absolutely love them.  I also have the DaVinci Cranks, mfg. by White Ind, on both my tandem and my Ebisu and they are great cranks.  The Tandem even has a nice (used ) set of WI rings, which are very strong and shift very well.

There are a number of US manufacturers making great bicycle parts and I for one would rather support them than chase after historic parts that wont function any better or last any longer, or look any nicer.

michael

take care of Self; it's one of a kind and irrreplaceable

[Jan Heine]

> Works with a ten speed chains?  Mmmm  I wouldn't want to have to make
> it work. 4mm width, must get tapered some for the teeth though.

Most high-quality chainrings step down at the teeth to a thinner width
than the main body of the ring. Even in 1938, when the original Herse
cranks were introduced, 4- and 5-speed chains were not 4 mm thick on
the inside. (The exact measurement for 5-speed is 2.38 mm.) So the new
rings are the same as the originals from the 1970s (which used modern
chainring bolts instead of bolts and nuts), except that the teeth are
a little bit thinner, and shaped a little differently to optimize
shifting.

> Quite light weight though - 540grams without the bolts.  Wonder how
> they did that?

By putting material where it is needed, and nowhere else. Compared to
the originals, we added a little material around the pedal eye (where
cranks tend to break) and went to a net-shape forging process to
ensure the strength in that area. (The originals were even lighter,
but we figured adding a few grams to increase the strength would be
prudent.) The downside of the net-shape forging process is that you
need a separate forging die for each length, but I would not be
comfortable riding such a lightweight crank where grain structure
around the pedal eye had been weakened by machining the crank to
length.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

[Philip Williamson]

On Dec 15, 8:18 am, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So the WI cranks are cnc machined, so what. I've never heard of a WI crank
> failure, and if one did fail I'm certain WI would make good on it, no
> question. The 8 mm of additional Q is insignificant, as is the 100 g.

I have, second hand, six years ago, from one source, heard of four
failures. The guy who mentioned the failures rode the ENO cranks and
thought 4 failures was a small number. If you called White Industries,
they'd probably tell you how many cranks they've produced and how many
they've warrantied.

Agreed on the Q and weight. Also agree on the Made In Petaluma appeal.

Philip

[William]

> The reasons for the proprietary bolt circle are simple: None of the
>common bolt circles allow useful combinations like 48-32 and 46-30.

That's not exactly true as stated.  Some of us run 94/58 triple cranks as compact doubles.  Perhaps that doesn't qualify as common but there are at least a dozen brand names of rings I can buy.  I'm running one of those cranks with a 44/30 and the other with a 46/29 on the 94mm circle.  The appeal (to me) of the Herse format is that it allows you to go even smaller, like 44/28 or 42/26, or the 40/24 made popular in Riv circles by Keven.  In addition, you (Jan) have made the case that five arms is just plain-old superfluous, a historical accident more than anything else.  

Some people think it's a contradiction or even hypocrisy that Jan is a gram-counter sometimes and a heavy-bike apologist at other times.  Cripes!  His new bike has a 28-hole Schmidt generator hub!  I take the conflict slightly differently.  While Jan says that several pounds of cargo don't make a huge qualitative difference in feel while riding, he's got a thing about carrying unnecessary weight.  Add weight if and where it is needed, and nowhere else.  

[Phil Bickford]

I've not heard of any WI failures either and I live 15 miles up the
road. I wonder if the failures occurred during developmental testing?
In which case four failures are relatively few.

CNC machining seems to be what domestic machinists find cost effective
- Paul uses it as well, and I like to buy locally produced stuff. So I
might buy a set of WI if I had the cash and actually needed a new
crank. I wouldn't be particularly happy about the pinned and ramped
BLACK chainrings, but I'd rather bet my teeth on a WI than with an
unproven lightly produced forged crank.

Box Construction - does that describe the crank arm cross section
after material is removed from the inside?

Phil B

On Dec 15, 9:57 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[William]

White Industries has a very entertaining flickr feed showing several of their production processes.  There is a shot of the backside of some ENO cranks to show how the arms are hogged out.  

[stevep33]

FWIW,

The Sugino OX801D cranks are terrific.  They are nicely finished, shift effortlessly, don't weigh too much, come with a BB and have common BCD.  Highly recommended! 

Oddly, domestic suppliers don't seem to stock the interesting chainring combinations or non-silver finish.  However, you can get a sub $500 price (incl. intl shipping) and any color or chainring combo if you order from AlexsCycle.com in Japan.

[Steve Palincsar]

And would they be better in any way than the Rene Herse cranks?

[stevep33]

The RH cranks are probably outstanding.  I see the Sugino OX801D as functionally similar - low Q, low weight, 46/30 or similar chainrings. 

The differences relate more to one's personal taste:
- classic vs modern appearance
- square taper BB vs Hollowtech/outboard bearing BB
- silver vs choice of silver/black
- 171 arm length vs choice of 160-175 arm length

One thing that always bugged me about the TA Pro 5 Vis is that they flex noticeably under load.  The Sugino OX801D cranks are stiff.  I wonder how the RH cranks feel.  Again, this aspect may be a matter of personal taste.

[William]

> - silver vs choice of silver/black

Don't forget the Sugino offers the choice of BLUE RED or GOLD chainrings, too!  I'm sure Steve Palinscar's MAP would look just delightful with colorful chainrings.  Kidding! Kidding!

[stevep33]

The blue, red and gold chainrings come with a pair of very tight jeans and an ironic mustache.

[Ryan Ray]

 I see the Sugino OX801D as functionally similar - low Q, low weight, 46/30 or similar chainrings.  

Not at all. The main draw for the RH cranks for me is the ability to run 48/30, 48/28 but the Sugino OX801D can only go down to 34 like regular old 110 cranks.

[Michael_S]

"whats a matter" with a set of 94bcd cranks?... you can run a 46-29 combo.  There are quite a few Chainrings out there in this size too.  It seeems like a smart idea to use an established size when you develop a new crankset. 

 

I like looks of the RH Crankset, I'm sure it's well made too. The price seems fair too.  But I'm one of those rare people who do better with a Q factor around 170 so it would not work for me.

 

~mike

[stevep33]

Ryan, The Sugino OX801D is offered with chainring combinations ranging from 44/30 to 52/36.  My Sugino OX801D cranks have 46/30 rings.

http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/ox801d_main_english.htm

[William]

> the Sugino OX801D can only go down to 34

Ryan

Not true, the Sugino OX801D takes a 110mm big ring, and can take a 110mm small ring OR a 74mm small ring.  They come stock with 14 different chainring combos, including 46/30, 44/30, 48/32, etc.  It's true that Soma (Merry Sales) only stocks down to a 34, but that's not a fundamental limitation of the product.  

[Ryan Ray]

@stevep33 and @William,

Thanks for the correction. So 90 bcd cranks can go as low as 28 AND the OX801D is a 90? Sweet! Any other suggestions besides the OX801D that are good 90bcd cranks? As long as the OX801D is in RH price range I'd rather have the RH.

- Ryan

[William]

I don't know where you got that the Sugino is a 90mm BCD.  As I said above, the Sugino will take a 110mm inner ring OR a 74mm inner ring:

  See?  Any 110mm ring you want.  Any 74mm ring you want.  74mm goes all the way down to 24.  I've never seen the bolt configuration on this crankset when the 74mm bolts are in use.  The big ring would have to use single chainring bolts, and the small ring would have a different set of bolts.  

What other cranksets do an equivalent thing?  The RH crankset, the White VBC, and some others.  

[David Yu Greenblatt]

Not bad, Sugino.
But Compass has you beat because its super-compact double crankset requires two fewer spider arms and seven fewer chainring bolts!
After the Rene Herse crankset comes out in the full Chris King rainbow of colorways including the ever popular "Rasta" combo, the crank wars will officially be over.

David G, Madison WI

[William]

I think it's really awesome that there are at least four different ways to get an off the shelf 46/30.  Herse, Velo-Orange, Sugino, and White Industries.  There may be a lot more.  5 years ago did we have that many options for a truly useful compact double?

[Michael Hechmer]

I held back on buying the WI crank for a long time too because of the black rings.  But in reality they look much better in person than they do on the WI web site.  The rings don't look at all like cheap MT rings but are highly polished to a black mirror finish that contrast nicely with the silver arms and a nickel plated chain.  Here's mine:

http://gallery.me.com/mhechmer#100094/IMG_1885&bgcolor=black

michael

[Kelly Sleeper]

Here are some WI's on my wires Roadeo. I guess I'm going to have to find out how much I paid for those things. I was one with sticker shock at 385 bucks as well. Beautiful cranks. Everything has to start someplace.
Now I just have to figure out how big of hypocrite my sticker shock makes me. :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tksleeper/6517852851/in/set-72157628434893689

I don't claim to be knowledgable, but I really like the quality I saw in the WI's and have heard nothing but good things about wi. I don't think it makes them better but I do believe they are good enough and other than taste and money I haven't found anything "better".

Kelly

[David Yu Greenblatt]

MSRP for the White Industries WBC crankset with two chanrings is $340, so a little less expensive than the new Compass Rene Herse crankset, which in turn is quite a bit cheaper than the modern TA Pro 5 Vis, which sells for about $440 online.

 

Of course, if the goal is to run a double crankset with a chainring combo like 46/30, probably the least expensive option is to inquire on the iBOB list or watch eBay for an old Ritchey Logic Compact or Suntour Micro Drive crankset, and then hunt for the 94mm BCD chainrings you want. As you now, these were very nice cranksets -- silver, cold forged, made in Japan by Sugino.

 

David G, Madison WI

[Ryan Ray]

Wow. That's a well designed crank. If I could find just the arms I could use the chainrings I already have. I ignored the crank before due to the odd graphics on the arms. I assumed it was some racy thing.

[Michael_S]

In case anyone wants a Suntour Microdrive crank... I have one for sale. NOS XC Expert crankarms with NOS 42-32 rings and a good condition 20T granny.  $50 shipped. There are plenty of 44 or 46T chainring out there is some wants to build a low cost 46-32 double.

contact off line if interested.

 

~mike

[Matthew J]

> CNC machining seems to be what domestic machinists find cost effective
> - Paul uses it as well, and I like to buy locally produced stuff. So I
> might buy a set of WI if I had the cash and actually needed a new
> crank. I wouldn't be particularly happy about the pinned and ramped
> BLACK chainrings, but I'd rather bet my teeth on a WI than with an
> unproven lightly produced forged crank.

CNC product are as good or bad as the metal CNC'd. I am sure Paul and
WI use excellent stock. I was disapointed at first that WI did not
offer polished rings the VBC. After seeing the cranks in person I
changed my mind.

Given Compass' excellent product history, I would be willing to give
the new crank very serious consideration had I not already owned a
wonderful Stronglight modded to perfection by J P Weigle on my glamour
bike and two very excellent (and wonderfully versatile what with the
interchangeable spiders) TA Carminas on my tour and Citi bikes.

Just me, but I do not think either the WI or Compass cranks would look
good with those egg beater style cleat pedals. Vintage platform style
or maybe the early Campy cleat pedals that carried the shape over from
the Athena toe clip pedals.

> >  Philip- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[bionnaki]

that's not true. 30t is the lowest.
see: http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/ox801d_main_english.htm

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I see the Sugino OX801D as functionally similar - low Q, low weight, 46/30 or similar chainrings.  

Not at all. The main draw for the RH cranks for me is the ability to run 48/30, 48/28 but the Sugino OX801D can only go down to 34 like regular old 110 cranks.

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[brian]

Herse cranks are nice but pricey. The VO 50.4 are good buy but I
didn't like the branding. I bought 50.4 cranks from Electra and they
seem to be the same cranks that VO sells. They are on sale until
12/31/11. I picked up a single speed set for $79.99. I will switch out
he rings at some point in the future. They are manufactured by FSA.
Here is a link. I do not work for Electra or any other bike concern!
They are listed as 50 BCD but I test fit an exisitng 50.4 ring and its
good.

http://store.electrabike.com/eSource/ecom/eSource/items/items-2-S0-lV1crankchain-lV2.aspx?store=

[Ablejack]

My brother (He and I both ride TA Pro V Cyclotouriste as well) just
ordered a Herse 46/30.
Ican't wait to see that jewel.

On Dec 14, 4:51 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let me see if I remember the full list of gripes about Compass' reissue of
> Rene Herse Cranks:
>
> 1.  They only come in 171mm ?!  Lame
> 2.  They cost $385 ?!  Lame
> 3.  You can't get a big chainring ?!  Lame
> 4.  Proprietary rings ?!  Lame
> 5.  Three bolts  ?!  Lame
> 6.  No ramps or pins or shift assist of any kind ?!  Lame
> 7.  Made in Taiwan  ?!  Lame
>
> Nevertheless, I'd still really love to have a few sets of them, and now
> they are accepting orders for them.
>
> http://www.compasscycle.com/Cranks.html
>
> If you bought them for me I'd run them on both of my go fast bikes in a
> 48/32.  I'd run a 46/30 or maybe even a 44/28 on my brevet bikes.  Maybe
> it's time to liquidate some more stuff....

[Ryan Ray]

How can it make a good double? By leaving the outer ring position empty and using single speed bolts?

- Ryan

[Michael Richters]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:38 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The appeal (to me) of the Herse format is that it allows you to go even
> smaller, like 44/28 or 42/26, or the 40/24 made popular in Riv circles by
> Keven.

44/28, yes, but not (yet, anyway?) 42/26 or 40/24 -- they're not
offering any big rings smaller than 44 teeth.

--MR

[William]

ooooh, perhaps you are right.  Maybe I didn't think that through completely since I'm happy at 44.  Good catch.