Riv Branding

[Rex Kerr]

While riding home today I had somebody catch up with me and comment on my bike, asking if it was a Riv.  Interestingly, he's been the first to not ask what an AHH was.  

Most bike companies put their brand on the downtube and the model on the top-tube, but Riv seems to go against the grain (something they NEVER do in any other aspect!!) and put the model name in big letters, but leave the company name relatively obscure.

I'm curious... it seems that there'd be some value to Riv to have their name quite prominently displayed, and I know I wouldn't object to it.  Anybody know why their bikes deviate from the normal practice?

[Leslie]

A story I've neglected to tell here...

A month ago, the kids and I were riding the Greenbelt (our in-town bike/walking trail).  I usually take notice of other bikes along the way, hoping to catch the fella that had a green Quickbeam (only other Riv I've seen on the Greenbelt, aside from my Rambouillet).   A couple of miles along, there was an elderly gentleman sitting on one of the benches with his bicycle parked beside him (a Schwinn, if I remember); I remembered him because he had a brown sprung saddle and a handlebar bag, which you never see (75% of the bikes on this trail are NEXT BSO's from WalMart).  We usually say 'Hi' to whoever we pass, but continue to roll along at a good clip.  We rode out to one of our usual turn-around points, and was about halfway back when we encountered the gentleman again.  I spotted him far enough ahead to notice that he had seen us and was stopping, so I slowed up a bit as we approached, when he hailed me....  "Can we talk for a minute?  It's not often you get to see one of Grant Petersen's designs out on this trail..."   So he and I ended up chatting for about 20 minutes.  Nice fella, Mr. Brooks, said he used to run a bike shop, had retired almost 20 years earlier.  Said he loved Grant's bikes from back then, and was excited that he'd just gotten a Bridgestone on ebay (I can't remember if it was an MB or an XO).  

As we rode away, my 9-yr-old daughter said "I know, your bike's famous..."    Well, at least in our house, it is...  

Thing is, I love the name Rivendell.  I knew about Rivendell as a bike company, but I had no idea what the heck a Rambouillet was.   I bought the bike because it was an awesome bike, regardless of the name.   Yeah, I think I kinda wished it said Rivendell instead of Rambouillet;  but, at the same time, I can see how reserving that label for customs might not be a bad thing, either.    (If it wasn't for money, I'd 'almost' order a custom Rivendell that was a copy of my Rambouillet, to have 'Rivendell' on it.)   

But by the same token....  if I lock my bike up outside a restaurant, and it says 'Rambouillet' on it, and no one knows what it is other than 'an old steel bike', then maybe it'll get left alone, whereas perhaps the name 'Rivendell' just might have a bit better chance of being known as an expensive bike, maybe being a bit more of a target then?  
 
But, even called a Rambouillet, I had a stranger stop me on the trail to look at my Rivendell... so, maybe, it doesn't really matter... those in the know will know, and those that don't, don't care... 



On Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:35PM -0700, Joe Bernard  wrote:

My assumption is that it is the result of "Rivendell" - the original
production models from Waterford - becoming the high-end customs, so they
needed a way to differentiate the production Atlantis from the customs, then
kept at the practice as they became more of a "production bike" company
again. I personally dislike this approach. I owned a Romulus, and never
liked the name much. I always wished that it was a "Rivendell", with the
model name in smaller letters on the toptube.

I can see the problem, though. In the early '90s Schwinn established a
road-and-MTB line called "Paramount", while still producing custom high-end
Paramount road bikes. That probably pissed a lot of "real Paramount" owners
off, and still causes a mess on Craigslist.

Sooo..I don't really like the practice, but can't think of a way around it.
Helpful, no?

Joe "helpful, no" Bernard
Fairfield, CA.


 

[Peter Pesce]

I don't see how "reserving" the Rivendell logotype for customs makes any sense at all. It's the company name, not the model.
Schwinn didn't reserve "Schwinn" for only high-end bikes, nor does Serotta refrain from putting "Serotta" on production frames, etc etc.
Further, the only people you're "reserving" Rivendell from are people who already know what it is. I'd have to know a lot about Rivs to know a bike that only says "Rivendell" is supposedly more special and exclusive than a bike that doesn't. If anything, I'd be inclined to think the opposite as a casual observer.
Maybe that's the point?  It's the "radical humility" ethos taken to the extreme?

[cm]

I like not having Rivendell on my Ram or Bleriot. I like that the graphics all go together without the need to put the company's name in big letters. I also think the graphics are much better on the non-Customer bikes than the custom-- who doesnt love airplanes, sheep, boats, etc? It helps make each model unique but recognizable. I think it promotes the idea that what they are selling is great bikes, not a great name. 

Cheers!

cm

[Ryan J]

I really enjoy the fact that Rivs aren't splashed with the brand name all over the bike too.  I'm thinking of my Trek here, that thing says "TREK" in about 8 different areas on the bike.  Kind of ridiculous.

 

I didn't know about Rivendells until a friend of mine showed up to a ride using a Hilsen.  I kept trying to find out what bike brand it was because it was so pretty, but I never heard of A. Homer Hilsen as a bike brand.  This of course started a conversation about Rivs and many nights going to the Rivendell website, now I have a Sam Hillborne and plan on getting a Roadeo in the near future.  I think it is one of the ways that Riv stands out, makes the bikes look more classy and less gaudy.

[Minh]

When i got my Hillborne, i too thought it strange that it wasn't
labeled a Rivendell, but i also understood the history of them keeping
the customs as Rivendell branded and the off-the-shelf frames as
Rivendell inspired. In the end, what does having a Rivendell branded
bike really get the buyer? Most people on the street won't know the
difference between a Rivendell and a Hillborne or Bombadil anyway.

And the folks who might know, get "it" already, a personal example of
this, all the folks that have approached me about my Hillborne, they
always ask if it's a Rivendell, like they already know. Part of that
maybe the overall aesthetic of the frame, part of it i'm sure is that
people who buy these frames tend to build them up with a certain
aesthetic (i.e. propensity for racks, bike bags, high stems, fat
tires) over the norm (i.e. carbon forks, skinny tires, tight
frames).

For me i think labeling it Rivendell would be an ego thing for the
buyer, sure Rivendell the company loses out because less casual people
can make the connection to the brand. But at the same time i wouldn't
want it to become some crazy, out of reach boutique brand like
Vanilla...

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

In a technical sense using "Rivendell" on customs seems perfectly appropriate to me. For the production bikes, there's a name given to the production model that helps the customers categorize the bikes according to characteristics that distinguish one from another. There are fundamental ways that a Hillborne is distinct from the Hunqapillar that are consistent and functional and aesthetic. So that name is useful is identifying the nature of the bike.

For the custom bikes, the only thing they are asserted to have in common is that they were designed by (or at least in conjunction with) RBW. Perhaps lots of them share certain characteristics that might group them into families. But I imagine if that's true that it's heavily an "effect" of the customization process (i.e. similarities of the customers desires per se) and not so heavily the cause of any given bike's nature. With the variation that probably exists among of the custom frames they've produced, "Rivendell" may be the most specific "brand" that's reasonable.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Ediblestarfish]

This reminds me, I've gotten a couple comments about the nice Schwinn I'm riding.  They of course did a double, or tripple take when trying to read A. Homer Hilsen on the side, trying to see what it really was.  I just grinned and thanked them.

I would not have minded pointing out it was a Rivendell, but there's not a single decently sized logo for them to see more than a foot away.  It's kind of like, reverse psychology branding.  They don't know what it is, so they are more interested.

[Rex Kerr]

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Ediblestarfish <edibles...@gmail.com> wrote:

This reminds me, I've gotten a couple comments about the nice Schwinn I'm riding.  

If it's built by Waterford, could it still claim a little bit of Schwinn heritage? :) 

[Joe Bernard]

Is that a Schwinn? No, it's a Hilsen by Rivendell, made by Waterford. Ahh, Waterford..they made my Paramount. No, that's a Paramount made by Schwinn in Japan. Who's on first? Right!

[islaysteve]

cm, I wish I could adopt your attitude!  Well, I'm trying.  I see your logic and I respect Grant's decisions to swim against the current, in many ways.  However, my gut feeling is more similar to the OP's:  I would like to see Rivendell on my downtube.  Oh well, the Bleriot is a beautiful bike in so many ways, it works perfectly for me, and I'm damn lucky to have it.  Another observation:  when I was filling out the online form for my county bike sticker, I listed the brand as Bleriot, since I realized that from 5 or 10 feet away, that's what the bike would be to most any officer or anyone else, save members of this list.  I listed Rivendell as the model.  Of course I hope to never test the wisdom of this choice!  Summer cheers to everyone and enjoy all of your Rivs, whatever they say on the tubes!  Steve

[Ryan J]

County bike sticker?  What is that?

[newenglandbike]

I view each model as a brand in itself;  I suspect this is the thinking behind it anyway.    Rather than restrict the creative outlet of cool names and graphics for bikes by just doing the same thing every time, they just make a whole new spiel when they design a new bike.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Five or six years ago, on one of these discussion boards, there was a flame war over whether or not Atlantis/Rambouillet riders could claim the exclusive title of "Rivendell Owner". I usually get antsy for the paint to get hacked up enough that I can have it repainted, sans decals. No decals makes for an attention-grabbing bike! My former plain black Atlantis with no decals got way more public attention than it ever did with the original paint and decals.

[cyclotourist]

I loved that bike!

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Five or six years ago, on one of these discussion boards, there was a flame war over whether or not Atlantis/Rambouillet riders could claim the exclusive title of "Rivendell Owner". I usually get antsy for the paint to get hacked up enough that I can have it repainted, sans decals. No decals makes for an attention-grabbing bike! My former plain black Atlantis with no decals got way more public attention than it ever did with the original paint and decals.

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[grant]

The issue is "line extension," and some are for it, some against it.
Bstone---Panasonic----two bike companies with extreme line-extension---
electronics, car tires, building pylons, rubber polution control
products, cameras, home appliances. I think we all like Bstones some,
but it was NOT easy to present them as a groovy bike back in
1985-1990. Then, the name meant "car tires that aren't Michelin or
Goodyear or B.F. Goodrich." It was always, "they make bikes, too?"
That was when Bstone was the 6th biggest bike maker in the world, and
had 23 percent of the Japanese market (1985).

It's a smaller thing for Rivendell to call all of our bikes
"Rivendell," then put the model name in small letters on the top
tube---bikes is bikes and all.....but I like the idea of independent
identities. I don't think of a Sam Hillborne as a "lesser" Rivendell
just because it's less expensive than A. Homer or something else. I
think the Sam is the best value, hugest bang-for buck superstar in its
own category....and not A. Homer lite, or something.

My not liking line extension is why we have MUSA clothes, and why we
have Sackville AND Brand V bags. I'm not saying I'm navigating a
minefield of potentially dumb moves by avoiding line extension.
Smarter people than me like it......but I know their arguments and
don't buy any of 'em. They're smarter in other ways...

In the early 2000s I never said anything but it bothered me when
somebody would refer to their Atlantis or Rambo as "a Rivendell,"
because to me "Rivendell" meant it was a custom and said RIvendell on
the downtube. I think that was dumb. I LIKE it now.

You can probably google "line extension" and get a better explanation.
It usually happens when some decision-maker wants to suck up to a boss
by pretending to believe that ANYTHING the Firm puts its name on will
have instant credibility---like, "Well...General Electric makes a good
kitchen widget...it probably knows its way around a non-kitchen
widget, too."

[islaysteve]

Free insurance.

[Leslie]

On Saturday, August 6, 2011 1:31:44 AM UTC-4, grant wrote:

I don't think of a Sam Hillborne as a "lesser" Rivendell just because it's less expensive than A. Homer or something else.

 

In the early 2000s I never said anything but it bothered me when somebody would refer to their Atlantis or Rambo as "a Rivendell," because to me "Rivendell" meant it was a custom and said Rivendell on the downtube. I think that was dumb. I LIKE it now.

Okay, so, to be clear:  although Sheldon was absolutely against it, does it mean I shouldn't cringe, or that you would, if I catch myself saying "Rambo"?  Nor should I feel guilty if I do say simply "It's a Rivendell" instead of spelling it all out ("It's a Ram, by Riv")? You won't chastise me if I do?

"Rambouillet" is a mouthful compared to "Ram" or "Riv" or "bike", and although I try not to say "Rambo", yeah, sometimes I do...

I know it doesn't keep the world from spinnin' round, but, at the same time, to be civilized, sometimes things still matter, even if they wouldn't otherwise...

[Joe Bernard]

Leslie, I have the opposite problem: I don't like the abbreviations, like "Hunqa". That one drives me crazy. I remember many years ago someone (Beth, I think) refused to say Rambo because it sounded too macho, so she went with Ramby. That was kinda cute. :-)

Joe "sometimes say Riv, but try not to" Bernard
Fairfield, CA.

[Ryan J]

I like to call my Sam Hillborne "Sam," "Hillborne," "Sam Hillborne" or my "Rivendell."  I kind of use them interchangeably, but I definitely consider my Sam to be a Rivendell.  

[Jim Mather]

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Leslie <leslie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, August 6, 2011 1:31:44 AM UTC-4, grant wrote:
>
> "Rambouillet" is a mouthful compared to "Ram" or "Riv" or "bike", and
> although I try not to say "Rambo", yeah, sometimes I do...
>

I thought "Ramboo" was short for Rambouillet; fewer connotations too.

[Johnny Alien]

I only abbreviate on the web when I wrote because I am lazy. In real life I always say the full name.

[EricP]

Will often abbreviate my bike to Sam Hill. As in "what in
the . . . ?"

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[Leslie]

On Saturday, August 6, 2011 8:30:53 PM UTC-4, EricP wrote:

Will often abbreviate my bike to Sam Hill.  As in "what in the . . . ?"

I've often thought that was a good nickname for it, too...


Re-reading what I wrote, I don't mean to imply that I'm so lazy when I speak that I *have* to abbreviate (I suppose, given how I droll on when I type, you can all imagine that I can use a paragraph or three to say what a two-word sentence could...).   Regardless, I usually refer to my bike as my Ram, sometimes as my Riv.  


Grant,
I see what you're getting towards:  a lot of companies start w/ one specific item, then grow to where they have several other associated items to their original purpose.  But then, after becoming 'the' company to be, start sticking their label on other items, further from their original core... 

I can understand keeping the clothes, the bags, etc., under separate brands,  but personally, I wouldn't worry about bike frames... that's your core product, I would tend to think that it's 'better' for Rivendell to have the Atlantis and the Hilsen and the others all under the Rivendell frame umbrella, in addition to the customs, IMO, FWIW....    but, of course, it's *your* company, *you* get to decide how you want it....  and, seems to be pretty right, IMO...  

 

[Philip Williamson]

That's me, I think. I abbreviate Quickbeam "QB," but I've never said
that. Out on a ride a couple weeks ago someone did say, "A Rivendell
Quickbeam!" Which seems like what it is.

And how could you NOT say "Hunqapillar" every chance you got?

Philip