Need your advice -- was thinking of getting a Sam Hillborne for Dad

[Amit Singh]

So we could have cycling adventures, bicycle camping and explore the world together.

Found a brand-new Taiwanese Sam in his size, $1,000 for the frame and fork - was SO excited! 

Then a friend told me yesterday he would sell his Saluki -- complete, minus saddle, pedals and rear rack for $1000.  WOW.

This going to be a surprise / present for Dad.  They are almost the same size - height, arm length, leg length - but my friend has 15 pounds more muscle on his body, no problem.  My friend said he wouldn't mind letting us borrow it for a week, or even a month to see if dad likes it.

I feel badly because the Saluki is SUCH an amazing bike (especially on Grand Bois Hetre tires), and it's his only Riv, but this friend already has a few touring rigs and he says it creates redundancy.  My friend also has a Schwinn Voyager and a Carleton (sp?) and that this opens up the space to allow him his dream bike - a Miyata 1000, and a new Macbook Air  ... I'm not sure if I should take it or not -- it's like taking a person's highest prized possession - and at such a low price.  On the flip side, and the bicycle does stay in the "family".  It also saves me a boatload of cash that I shouldn't be spending in the first place.  He knows my dad, rides with me often and is a good friend.

As for Dad, he's been wanting to travel / explore for such a long time I think it would be perfect, but need to convince him to get out exploring with me.  He's got the Raleigh 3 speed, we did a 40 mile ride yesterday on a flat limestone rail-trail.  He's like a little kid, smiling the whole time.  He loves it.  But I am doing this for purely selfish reasons.  It's wonderful to ride with the new friends I've made -- most of them over 50 -- and love to be on the bike and are the most competent cyclists I know.  They know the roads and bikes and frequently show me new routes and tricks fun tricks with brakes and derailleurs.  They've taught me so much and I help them break their focused cycling meditation by keeping my eyes open to exciting things to look at. It slows us down - but relishing in the experience and the journey is so much better than sprinting to the destination.  I've broken them in large part out of the "packs" and "mentality" of group rides.  Sometimes going slower really gets you there faster :)

But I digress ... Im doing this for selfish reasons.  While I enjoy the company of my cycling friends, I'd love the company of my father.  When we were growing up he'd take us around the country to show us things.  He'd love the beautiful landscapes in Tennessee, Northern Michigan, Arizona and California best.  We can ride all of those, experience even more at a more reasonable pace; stopping when we want, in the elements, without a car and without traffic.

I am still unsure of how to sell Dad on the idea of adventure exploring with me, any suggestions?  Your advice would be helpful.  Dad is nearly 70 but looks like he's 55, maybe.  He's still not retired and prefers it that way.  He walks 5 miles a day, fast pace, and is thinking of upping it to 7.  He's also thinking of upping his fast pace to a run, he's in great shape and enjoys the 5:30 early traffic-free mornings.

I'd really like to take a weekend to do the entire a 300K route I didn't finish few weeks ago in the mountain foothills outside of Columbus, Ohio.  We could stop half-way in at a national forest to camp the night, pack up, and ride the rest of it the next day.  But then I'd also like to do a 2 week tour with him ... maybe an adventure cycling route would be appropriate.

BUT then again, maybe I'm going too fast -- I become impatient too quickly.  What should we do, where should we go, how do I set this up so it leads to a of successful cycling relationship for Dad and I?

Thanks for reading this and for your time.

[Brett Lindenbach]

geez, what a great post.  personally i'd grab that saluki (full disclosure: i love 650B).  you're not gonna find a value like that again, and i'm sure your friend considers it a fair price.  if you feel a twinge of guilt, offer him a little bit more cash.  either bike would be perfect for your dad, assuming they fit him.  but why not take your friend up on the offer to borrow the saluki and see what your dad thinks?

[Seattle Smitty]

What dad doesn't want to go on a bike ride with his kid? Maybe try borrowing a bike and going on a pedal adventure or 2 with dad. Then judge if he's into it enough to justify the expense of buying a bike.

   

[Johnny Alien]

Get that Saluki right away. I like the Hillborne alot but those straight TT Rivendell's are fantastic looking!!

[Joe Bernard]

Yep, if he's comfortable selling for that price, snap it up. Let your dad ride it for a while, and if he doesn't get into it, offer to sell it back. The worst that could happen is your dad doesn't want it; your friend doesn't want it back; and you sell it for a profit to one of us deep-pocketed idiots!

[Leslie]

Saluki. Great name, I love the idea of 650B's... Sounds like a have-to...

Only thing I might caution... I fully understand wanting to go on these adventures with him, and wholly encourage the idea... But, I would suggest, thinking of the bike as a separate thing from the trips... Get him the bike, I'm sure you'll enjoy it, and he'll enjoy riding with you.... But, he may want to take it easy on it, too.... He may not, he may charge right ahead, but, maybe not. I just wouldn't want it to end up feeling like the purpose of the bike was unfulfilled as a gift if said trips didn't materialize... The bike itself is a *wonderful* gift, and the trips with you would be a wonderful gift for him too; but, I would not want to see you sad if he'd rather stick to your already-established format, instead of the longer jaunts... Does that make sense? I don't know him, I could be entirely overcautious, but, it just reminded me of another similar situation, where someone else felt that a nice gift was 'wasted', because it wasn't utilized in the way he giver intended... It wasn't wasted, it was a great gift still, but, there was the letdown and hurt on the part of the giver. That's my only caution. FWIW...

I do love the idea of the Saluki for him, tho'....

[hobie]

Saluki,Saluki,Saluki!!! The magic carpet ride w. Hetres. The sweet spot in wheel size.  

[EricP]

Okay, bias time here - own an early Hillborne and my one 650B
experience was not good. So my recommendation? Saluki. A beautiful
bike. And as you say, it stays in the "family". Do it. If you feel
guilt later, you can get the Hillborne. You probably won't find
another Saluki anytime soon.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[cyclotourist]

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[cyclotourist]

The Saluki is one special bike.  There's a reason you don't see them cropping up on the used market.  It is a very good deal, but not the deal of the century, so don't feel guilty about it.  Hope it works out and that your father is able to put many miles on it!

[Rene Sterental]

Here's hoping that this will be my son and I in 20 years!!!

 

Congratulations on what you're doing and like everyone else said, get the Saluki!

 

René

[Michael Hechmer]

Amit,  Sounds like all of us agree you should snap up the Saluki, now on to the more complex question of motivating your 70 year old Dad.

I'm closing in on 67 and have spent a good chunk of the last decade motivating my wife (64) to ride more with me.  So I can write from experience.  As we age, no matter how well we stay active and in shape, we begin to loose power and speed. There's good biological explanations for this but that would be a lengthy digression.  We can hold onto endurance a bit later in life but eventually that will also begin to wane.  And, perhaps most importantly, our recovery time increases significantly.  Ten years ago I could ride five days a week, finishing up with a century and a couple of mountain passes.  Now I find that trying to ride three days in a row overloads my body, and four hours of riding is all that I really enjoy doing.

With my wife, the most important rule I follow is never to leave her feeling stiff, sore, and exhausted.  She will likely remember that feeling more than the joy she felt during the ride.  As a result she has gradually increased her riding strength from 15 to 50 mile trips.  She is "vertically challenged"  so I usually try to avoid any really long mountain climbs (that in itself is a challenge in Vermont!) and when we do go up hill I use the Canadian Goose method - I honk and cheer her all the way to the top.  But if she does need to stop and walk; I do too.

Her bike is outfitted with BE shifters, because they are the most ergonomic choice.  You move the shifter in the same direction as the chain, and the brain seems to catch on to that pretty quickly.  She also has pretty low gearing, (46/36/26 mated to a 13-27 7 spd freewheel) since she is not comfortable really screaming downhill.  I have also worked with her on riding technique, but gently, and pretty much only one thing at a time, to avoid sounding like a nag.  After she learned shifting, we started working on riding downhill more aggressively so that she would have more momentum going into the next inevitable Vt uphill.  After she mastered that we began working to get her to spin smaller gears faster.  That took a long time but this year she is much better at it and we are beginning to talk about improving her cornering. 

I also claim that riding with my wife is like riding with Lance Armstrong!  Lance says my tires are soft and someone rushes to put air in them; Lance says, my brake is rubbing, and some one rushes to adjust them!  But I would bet your dad would not like that kind of treatment; we men have such fragile egos!  So you probably need to be extra cautious giving advice or offering help.  

I have been riding with my two children (now in their late 30s) and still consider it the best.  Fortunately they can remember all the years I waited for them on hikes & bike rides and now do the same for me, with real grace.  Oh and BTW, last year we bought a tandem and now it's pretty much all Pat wants to ride.

michael,

take care of Self; it's one of a kind and irreplaceable

[Amit Singh]

Thanks for all of the positive encouragement friends!

I'm trying to get dad's and my schedule to align to ride the Shoreline West Bicycle Tour along the coast of Lake Michigan ... 2 tickets recently became available (stars are aligning!) and I think it would be a beautiful way to start.  40 - 60 miles a day with some of the most awesome scenery, I'm excited and hope it happens.

Now I'm thinking of saddles and setup.  The Raleigh currently has a Brooks B68 unsprung saddle with Alba bars which he finds very comfortable.  He hasn't tried the B17 for more than 4 minutes but loudly exclaimed "that made my butt hurt!" and hopped off :)  It may have not been adjusted properly.

So here are some thoughts:  

B-17 - keeps it traditional, it's a great saddle, although I've recently been experiencing some unequal sit-bone sagging with my own ... but I ride a ton and weigh 220ish ... so maybe that's to be expected.  The honey would look great.  Dad weighs a buck and a half.

Berthoud - flatter, the cork is a sexy color, but wicked expensive and do I really want to get into buying berthoud luggage to go with this bike?  ... I have enough luggage already ... so maybe not.  then again, there's the "oooh, berthoud!" factor.  hrm.  and I've read great reviews of its comfortability.  eh ... pass.

B-68 - with 40 years of beausage.  dad likes this and finds it comfortable, although we haven't really talked about it.  mostly, he just hasn't complained at all!  we probably should discuss what he thinks is comfortable and what isn't.  i'll plan for that conversation tonight.  Perhaps I'll pull it off of the Raleigh just for a trial on the Saluki.  I'll probably end up doing this just to see if he likes it ... 

B-67 - Sprung saddle, same as B-68, just with springs - this monster of a saddle is heavy, but what does a few pounds more it really matter as long as the rider is comfortable?  I have this on my Bomba right now, and it still looks new (okay, really minor sit bone indents).  I'll end up mounting this before the B68, probably.

Writing my thoughts down has helped - I think the most important thing is talking with dad about saddle fit and understanding where he's comfortable.  My hunch is that we'll go with a new B-17 and try it for a few days to make sure it's properly adjusted and hitting his sit-bones correctly.  

If we're doing the Shoreline, we'll probably get a few pairs of riding shorts and jerseys for him to stay comfortable in.

The Rapha Bib shorts are fantastic - 12 or more hours in the saddle and ZERO problems.  I haven't tried Ibex or Andiamo ... hrm.  Riv clothing is right in with Dad's style, so we'll probably order a few pairs of MUSA and some wool shirts from the RBW.  And shoes ... I haven't tried the Keens but have read great things from all of you.  Keen commuters, I'm thinking, with MKS Touring pedals, yeah?  The Denver Canvas  and Coronado models look way better and provide full foot coverage.  And then there are Addidas Sambas.  Hrm.  I suppose it depends on what he wants - clip in or not - and the style he most prefers.  Dad is totally not into shopping ... This is going to be a challenge!  

What else, Helmet.  Bell is what fits me well, I'll suggest the same to him.  I think that's got it covered for now.

Thanks again for reading my thoughts of randomness.  This feels like a blog entry.  Maybe I should start one of those.  Hrm.

Amit

[cyclotourist]

I love the "Riding with Lance" advice!

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[Joe Bernard]

You won't want to be introducing your dad to a new saddle before a big ride. "No complaints" is hard to come by with bike seats; roll with it.

[Bill Carter]

Leslie writes:
The bike itself is a *wonderful* gift, and the trips with you would be
a wonderful gift for him too; but, I would not want to see you sad if
he'd rather stick to your already-established format, instead of the
longer jaunts...

I am really pleased to be a part of this list where the overwhelming
attitude is one of support and encouragement for each other, and I
think Leslie's suggestion is absolutely right on target. I lost my
dad this past April, and I miss him every day. He was a WWII veteran
with 24 bombing missions aboard a B17 Flying Fortress to his credit.
Toward the end he was wheelchair bound - a man who had hunted, fished,
flown airplanes, ridden horses, roped cattle, and played golf almost
all his life - and my last visit with him was spent with him smoking
cigars and petting a stray cat on the front porch of the verterans
home where he spent his last days. It was what he enjoyed, and I
wouldn't trade my memory of that day for anything. So buy the bike,
let your Dad's wishes guide you, and spend as much time with him as
you can. Best of luck.

[Minh]

Amit,

I've been riding the same B17 for about 10 years, so it's well broken
in. I just got a berthoud, and while it sure looks nice, i find the
B17 a little more comfortable (most likely due to the break-in i'm
still doing on the berthoud), outside of that they are pretty similiar
saddles, time will tell about durability but on price alone i don't
see the advantages of the berthoud (at least my butt does not). i find
the flatter top actually a little harder to grip/stay on. i also
have a brooks flyer which is the b17 with springs and that feels
similiar in the seat.

if your dad likes his broken in b68 just go with that, but make sure
you do a few long practice rides as a too squishy seat might not
provide enough support on long rides.

[Anne Paulson]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Amit Singh <asd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm trying to get dad's and my schedule to align to ride the Shoreline West
> Bicycle Tour along the coast of Lake Michigan ... 2 tickets recently became
> available (stars are aligning!) and I think it would be a beautiful way to
> start.  40 - 60 miles a day with some of the most awesome scenery, I'm
> excited and hope it happens.

Wow, the Shoreline West tour looks like a lot of fun. But, y'know, is
that the right thing for your dad right now? For a lot of us, a tour
with 40-60 miles a day, rolling with a bit of steep climbing, is the
sort of thing we could do on a whim. I know I could start such a tour
tomorrow, and the only issue would be whether I needed to do laundry
before packing up my things.

But for a less experienced rider, a tour like that is pretty
formidable! Maybe you might think about starting with something less
ambitious. You want to keep it fun, and avoid any kind of pressure at
all. You don't want to even have a hint of a notion of an idea that
your generous present comes with strings attached

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[Amit Singh]

Photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amisingh/5986264864

First Impressions : He thinks it's a lot lighter than his Raleigh 3 Sport which I gifted him last year (riding on top of british imperialism rawks!)

He also thinks that the gears make a huge difference and he didn't have to work hard to go fast - we popped off a few miles in the middle chainring and smallest cog, he loved that.  

He says it rides the same as the Raleigh, stable and cushioned.  

We did 40 miles tonight with a beer halfway and he wasn't a bit tired, he said he could keep going and started talking of doing 60 miles as "fun rides" (like father like son?)   

We took the pace nice and easy, didn't go to fast, but there wasn't any rush anyways!   

He likes it and wants to keep it :)

[PATRICK MOORE]

Amit: Good on ya, mate!

Patrick "'rinne sé mhaith orm" I'm Ulster Protestant Irish)" Moore

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
patric...@resumespecialties.com

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.
(Rilke, Buddha in Glory)

[Anne Paulson]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Amit Singh <asd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amisingh/5986264864

Pretty! Maybe a shorter stem? He looks stretched out to me.

--
-- Anne Paulson

[René Sterental]

Wow! I wish I could say that as well... But that is my goal!

Keep us posted on your adventures with your Dad. They're inspiring!

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4

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[stevef]

Very cool, Amit!  I tried something similar with my dad but his arthritic knees made cycling painful for him.  At least we can still drink beers and shoot skeet together...B-)

Steve, semi-reformed hillbilly, son of an un-reformed one.