Complaints about bad roads

[Anne Paulson]

I just last week got back from a 2500 mile tour, Mexico to Canada via
the Sierra and the Cascades. Once again, as often happens, my riding
companions sometimes complained that about rough roads. And once
again, in the main I didn't notice the roads being rough, although the
dirt detours that I took a time or two and my companions didn't were
pretty bumpy in places.

I'm at a loss to understand what I'm missing. This was a loaded tour.
I was riding my Atlantis with 26 x 1.5 Panaracer Paselas, which should
be comfortable tires, by my companions were riding fine touring bikes
(Surly LHT, Co-Motion Americano, other touring bikes) with reasonable
touring tires (mostly Schwalbe Marathons, one guy had Vittoria
Randonneurs I think). Why are these fragile flowers noticing bad roads
when I don't? What are they doing wrong, that they're riding touring
bikes and complaining about chipseal?

When I ride at home on unloaded bikes, my friends sometimes complain
about bad roads when I don't, but I chalk that up to their insistence
in riding 25 mm tires pumped up to 120 pounds while I'm happy on my
Roadeo with 28 mm tires.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 12:57 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote:
> I'm at a loss to understand what I'm missing. This was a loaded tour.
> I was riding my Atlantis with 26 x 1.5 Panaracer Paselas, which should
> be comfortable tires, by my companions were riding fine touring bikes
> (Surly LHT, Co-Motion Americano, other touring bikes) with reasonable
> touring tires (mostly Schwalbe Marathons, one guy had Vittoria
> Randonneurs I think). Why are these fragile flowers noticing bad roads
> when I don't? What are they doing wrong, that they're riding touring
> bikes and complaining about chipseal?

What tire pressure are they using?

[PATRICK MOORE]

I get acceptably comfortable tire performance from skinny, little
650Cx22 mm Michelin Pro Race 3s (or whatever) at roughly 85/90 under
my 175 lb on smooth-down-to-mediocre roads. The 559X32 mm Kojaks on
another bike are extremely plush at 50/60, 55/65 or so under grocery
loads. My fattest, 60+ mm Big Apples generally stay at sub-15/sub20 on
pavement as on dirt. I guess your friends are inflating their tires
too hard.

Can you post photos of your tour?

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--
"When in Rome, do as they done in Milledgeville."

Flannery O'Connor

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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[Ken Mattina]

My guess is that they don't like riding on rough roads. I know plenty
of people who would rather die than ride on a gravel road. Me, as
long as I'm riding my bike I don't care.

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Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?

-- Ray Davies

[Anne Paulson]

> What tire pressure are they using?

That's my guess, that they were inflating their tires too much. But
the bizarre thing is that my suggestions that they reduce their tire
pressure went unheeded. They imagined that they would go faster with
harder tires, though I think that's incorrect on roads that are bumpy.
Perhaps harder tires really are faster on chipseal than softer tires,
and I guess that's a tradeoff that they were willing to make. On my
touring bike, I couldn't tell the difference between chipseal and the
world's smoothest road.

[Anne Paulson]

>
> Can you post photos of your tour?

I don't take photos. I love seeing other people's pictures of tours,
but I don't take pictures myself. (So I guess I can't prove the tour
happened.)

[Scott G.]

When did 1.5s get to be fat tires on Riv list ?

I was under the impression that decent tires started at 42mm
Anything smaller was for little French guys in Le Tour.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I believe you, and even sympathize. Would have liked to participate
vicariously via photos, though.

Anecdote: once, long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, on a
cross-country auto trip with four guys (biggish) in a 1972 Toyta
Celica (small), we'd rotate drivers every 2 hours, clockwise. One guy
wanted to stop every 3 miles to take photos -- he also insisted on
driving 55. Annoying on both accounts.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 13:16 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote:
> > What tire pressure are they using?
>
> That's my guess, that they were inflating their tires too much. But
> the bizarre thing is that my suggestions that they reduce their tire
> pressure went unheeded. They imagined that they would go faster with
> harder tires, though I think that's incorrect on roads that are bumpy.

And afraid of pinch flats, said fear being made doubly worse by
awareness of the extra weight of a touring load, and the extra trouble
presented by luggage when fixing a flat.

> Perhaps harder tires really are faster on chipseal than softer tires,

We know better.

> and I guess that's a tradeoff that they were willing to make. On my
> touring bike, I couldn't tell the difference between chipseal and the
> world's smoothest road.

Agreed.

[Steve Palincsar]

When you are a wee slip of a thing, like Anne, for example, a 38mm tire
is pretty huge.

[John Blish]

Hi Ann,

Them simply complaining about the dirt roads is not enough to get an answer to your question.  Find out what it is about riding off pavement that bothers them?  Know what I mean?  Saddle discomfort, neck and shoulder strain, feeling of being less in control, requires too much attention to be able to look around, can't relax into it, person who always needs something to complain about or maybe just making conversation about the obvious? 

I seek out dirt at fairly low speeds but my specific problem on other than smooth surfaces is the arthritis in my left hand, thumb and wrist, something no one could guess if they were not aware that I have it.  I have got around it partially by switching from drop bars (Noodles) to more upright Boscos and other bars like that.  With less weight on my hands the bouncing and jerking of the bars does not get that left wrist as upset.  Also, I use Bayer Back and Body pills (fairly inexpensive) when needed.  When my wrist begins to hurt in a way that I know is not going to go away for a while I know then that I have had enough.

I am usually on some kind of Schwalbe that is at least 2 inches wide.  Marathon Supremes, Big Apples, Fat Frank, etc.  I believe that helps me a lot even on pavement.

-jb

   

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[Kelly]

I agree with everyone about air pressure. I shipped my bike tomA
Alaska and when I went to get the bike they had inflated my 700z50's to 60 psi.
Because that was max inflation listed on the side. I notice most everyone on the tour riding gravel was riding almost mad pressure and weren't comfortable reducing that pressure.

Kelly

[Garth]

Everyone's perspective is different . 


What's okay to one is he!! to another .   Neither perspective is right or wrong .... just different based on their life's experience. 

That's just it ... no two riders can EVER experience the same thing the same way !   

I say ... help them if they ask .... but don't let their negative experience become yours ... unless you want to of course ;)

[arthur strum]

On Aug 5, 2012, at 4:05 PM, rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com wrote:

Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com> Aug 05 01:16PM -0700  

> What tire pressure are they using?
 
That's my guess, that they were inflating their tires too much. But
the bizarre thing is that my suggestions that they reduce their tire
pressure went unheeded. They imagined that they would go faster with
harder tires, though I think that's incorrect on roads that are bumpy.

Perhaps harder tires really are faster on chipseal than softer tires,

and I guess that's a tradeoff that they were willing to make. On my
touring bike, I couldn't tell the difference between chipseal and the
world's smoothest road.
 

-- 

Interesting exchange about tire pressure, but I wonder if it's not at least partly your bike. Grant P. seems to design very, very comfortable bikes. (I've had a 68cm Redwood and still own a Quickbeam) I say that even though I'm not a fan of Rivendell front end geometry -- I prefer the lower-trail front end of my old English tourer. But  -- what is it? The chainstays? seatstays? and of course partly just the way the bikes fit. I'm not sure. I just wonder if it isn't partly your bike itself, compared to the Co-Motion/Surly offerings? (even though the LHT seems to be an imitation of the Atlantis, and many people find them comfortable on tour)

Art

Tacoma

[Peter Pesce]

On a related note, how big we're your riding companions? The popular online tire drop calculator indicates 85 psi in a 37mm rear tire for a 225 lb rider with 75 lbs of bike and gear.
My LHT actually rides much nicer with a good load on it. I always assumed it did so because that's what's it was designed for, and the harshness I sometimes feel with my light commuting load is due to a tube set designed for much heavier duty. Id assume your Atlantis has the same ultimate capabilities, but with a more sophisticated design it just works better across the entire range of loading.

Pete in CT

[Anne Paulson]

I'm 5'8", and four of the five guys were shorter than I am. I'm
guessing the short guys were in the 150 pound range. We started out
the ride as a loaded tour, but three weeks in, there was a revolt
because the majority of us thought the ride was just too hard. So
Adventure Cycling ended up sending a van and driver to carry our gear.
So three of the guys were then riding unloaded touring bikes-- and I'm
pretty sure they had their tires at a high pressure. I decided to keep
on carrying my gear for all but three of the days, for no particular
good reason, and I also ran my tires at a lower pressure because I
prefer it.

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[Anne Paulson]

Replying to my own post:

I was just reading the Bicycle Quarterly blog, noting that they say
that Paselas (which I was using) are fast-rolling tires, whereas
Schwalbes are both slow and harsh-riding. So maybe that's the
explanation of my riding companions' complaints. They were using
Schwalbes.

[Bertin753]

Just for the record, *some* Schwalbes are very smooth, fast rolling tires, the Kojak for example. Even the massively heavy Big Apple rolls nicely for its mass.

Patrick Moore
iPhone

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 20:32 -0700, Anne Paulson wrote:
> Replying to my own post:
>
> I was just reading the Bicycle Quarterly blog, noting that they say
> that Paselas (which I was using) are fast-rolling tires, whereas
> Schwalbes are both slow and harsh-riding. So maybe that's the
> explanation of my riding companions' complaints. They were using
> Schwalbes.

Not all Schwalbes are the same. Echoing Patrick, the Kojak is a lively,
fast-feeling tire (at least, in the 32-369 size I use). Schwalbe also
sells super-heavy duty touring tires that could probably go around the
world without wearing out and that likely would stop all small arms
projectiles short of the Browning .50 cal.; I would not expect those
tires to feel lively or fast.

[Michael Hechmer]

Ann, of course there is the possibility that you are drawn into friendship with very sensitive people!

 It may also be bike set up and design - too much weight on the arms or too much on the touche.  Bikes w/out much fork rake will be less happy on dirt roads, and despite claims and evidence to the contrary I find Al frames less forgiving.   Dirt road riding requires a lighter touch, e.g. downhill calls for lifting the touche a bit and just holding the outside of the bars lightly enough for control.  This will minimize the vibration that goes from the bike to the rider.  if you don't do that you will be less happy.   But, as has been pointed out there is a widespread  bias against dirt and gravel roads.  Here in VT. all the recommended routes avoid them even though they provide some of the most beautiful and enjoyable routes in the state.  I live in a town with only one paved road so I do ride the dirt a lot.

As for tires, at 195 lbs, I'm OK on dirt roads with Grand Bois Cerfs and regularly ride and enjoy the dirt roads on Jack Browns.  I trade up to Avocet 38 mm for badly paved roads.  Even on the loaded tandem with 400+ lbs marathon racers at 1.6 are just fine on gravel roads.

I'm remembering a vacation two years ago at a B&B in rural Quebec.  We headed out on the gravel roads for a 45 mile loop on the Marathon racers, while another couple loaded their tandem onto the car top to go search for paved roads.   To each is own.

Michael

Westford, Vt, where it's not blistering hot today

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 14:32 -0700, Tony wrote:
> Same story, different bike shop. The clerk was going over what was
> included in the assembly fee and mentioned that they had inflated the
> tires to 70 psi - was that okay? The best I could manage was, "I can
> always let some air out."

You may be entertained by the following thread
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fat-soft-tires-28345.html
from the Velocipede Salon forum, a place largely populated by racing
fans and very strong riders, where Campagnolo is the dominant group and
tubulars are the tyre of choice.

'It all started when I got lazy, and quit checking the pressure
in my tires; I inadvertently quit adhering to the "110 psi" (or
whatever) rule, and every so often would find that I had done my
last ride at fifty or sixty. I was in Colorado, climbing
constantly and riding lots of dirt roads. Lower was just more
awesomer.

'That was six or eight years ago. I haven't put more than 90 psi
in a tire in that time, and I tell my customers I'm part of a
new wave. Mostly, they buy it. A few know that my compressor is
at 88 psi, and I just don't feel like dragging out a floor pump
for fatty. A select few truly appreciate this fact, and take my
lower-is-better-and-here's-how-I-know story at face value. Many,
perhaps most, chuff quietly to themselves that they'll ride them
low for this ride, and fix it before leaving the house next time
- and certainly before coming back to see their lazy,
know-it-all mechanic.'

[ted]

Ah yesss. Mushy tubulars. The first time (and several times
thereafter) I rode up the dirt to the ridge near home I used an old
road bike sporting conti tubulars at ~50 or 60 psi. Tires worked fine.
Low gear of 39-28 less fine.

One great thing with tubulars was I only ever pinch flatted one once,
and that time I broke the wheel too.

On Aug 6, 1:37 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 14:32 -0700, Tony wrote:
> > Same story, different bike shop. The clerk was going over what was
> > included in the assembly fee and mentioned that they had inflated the
> > tires to 70 psi - was that okay? The best I could manage was, "I can
> > always let some air out."
>

> You may be entertained by the following threadhttp://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fat-soft-tires-28345.html

[Matt Beebe]

I doubt it was because they were using Schwalbes, even if they were marathon tourguards or whatever.    When you are riding on a fully loaded tour with over 30-40lbs of gear, I don't think a heavier tire with stouter sidewalls is going to affect handling or shock absorption capability that much.       I think the initial theory a few posts up nailed it:    they refused to lower their tire pressures despite the terrain.     In my experience, for tires over 35mm wide, lowering tire pressures from typical pavement pressures helps smooth out the bumps significantly, and can be the difference between barely making forward progress and being able to continue comfortably at 10mph or more.    This is especially true on 'washboard' roads, where (I have found) a lower PSI can really work like magic.    Of course, there are other aspects of the bike that can contribute to offroad/bumpy comfort as well, such as riding position and what not.

On Sunday, August 5, 2012 11:32:43 PM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

[Anne Paulson]

Let me clarify: the guys were not complaining about bumpy dirt roads.
They did not ride on any dirt roads. They were complaining about paved
roads with slight imperfections.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Matt Beebe <matthi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I doubt it was because they were using Schwalbes, even if they were marathon
> tourguards or whatever. When you are riding on a fully loaded tour with
> over 30-40lbs of gear, I don't think a heavier tire with stouter sidewalls
> is going to affect handling or shock absorption capability that much.
> I think the initial theory a few posts up nailed it: they refused to
> lower their tire pressures despite the terrain. In my experience, for
> tires over 35mm wide, lowering tire pressures from typical pavement
> pressures helps smooth out the bumps significantly, and can be the
> difference between barely making forward progress and being able to continue
> comfortably at 10mph or more. This is especially true on 'washboard'
> roads, where (I have found) a lower PSI can really work like magic. Of
> course, there are other aspects of the bike that can contribute to
> offroad/bumpy comfort as well, such as riding position and what not.

[Kelly]

Anne, 

Well sounds like their problem.  I don't get it and have become even less sympathetic to those on event rides complaining because a road isn't perfect yet the scenery and lack of traffic is spectacular while riding 700x23's with 120 psi.  Then to go to bigger tires and inflate them to max pressures negates the advantage of the larger tire.   

Be happy and befuddled with a smile.. they know not what they are doing and paying a price for it.. missing out on the  joy of the tour and the moment.

Kelly

[Philip Williamson]

Higher tire pressure and less weight on the bike would mean that smaller bumps would deflect your course more, right? 

I weight the handlebars more on chattery surfaces to keep the front end calm. 

Philip

biketinker.com (today at problemsolversbike.com/blog/)