Getting used to "Silver" barend shifters

[Rex Kerr]

I've ridden bikes with friction shifting for more than 25 years, the majority of that with barend shifters.  I've had multiple bikes set up with Suntour shifters and seven speed clusters, and one set up with Shimano Ultegra shifters (always in friction mode -- I prefer friction shifting) with a 9 speed setup.  I've used both shaped and unshaped cogs, as well as floating and non-floating deraillers.  I share this information to demonstrate that I'm not new to friction nor barend shifting.

So... based on the glowing description on the riv site I set up my new AHH with the Silver shifters that they sell.   I really like the look, but so far I've been having a horrible time shifting.  I always feel like I'm between gears, and I've had a few unpleasant experiences when the chain jumped when starting from a dead stop.

Things that make me think that it's just me:

* It seems to be getting a little better over time

* Grabbing closer to the pivot, as if it were a shorter lever, seems to have helped a LOT (tried that this morning for the first time)

Things that it might be, if it's not me:

* When the parts arrived I didn't yet have my frame, so I spent some time playing with them at the table.   I noticed that one of them shifted very smoothly in both directions, but one of them had varying amounts of friction through the travel.  Perhaps that's the one that ended up being my rear shifter?  I did notice at first that the shifter would move slightly after I set it (next bullet)

* Grease on the pivot plate.  Riv recommends greasing this.  Taking it apart and wiping most of it off seems to have improved the shifting notably, and it no longer moves.  I remember reading years ago that you should never grease the Suntour shifters.

* Mis-aligned der-hanger.  I doubt this, it was a brand new frame!

* More float in the derailer.  It's an LX (high normal) derailler, just like the one on my touring bike, just a newer model.  Could they have changed the design to make it float more, making it harder to select a gear?  In the past I've replaced pulleys with non floating ones to improve friction shifting.   The AHH that I test rode at Riv had the same derailler, though it was a rapid-rise version.

Any advice for this?  Did anybody else experience this?  Did it go away with practice?  Do I just have to retrain my brain?

Thanks!

-Rex

[Brett Lindenbach]

check that your silver bars end shifter levers are tight.  this helped me.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 16:51 -0700, Rex Kerr wrote:
> I've ridden bikes with friction shifting for more than 25 years, the
> majority of that with barend shifters. I've had multiple bikes set up
> with Suntour shifters and seven speed clusters, and one set up with
> Shimano Ultegra shifters (always in friction mode -- I prefer friction
> shifting) with a 9 speed setup. I've used both shaped and unshaped
> cogs, as well as floating and non-floating deraillers. I share this
> information to demonstrate that I'm not new to friction nor
> barend shifting.
>
>
> So... based on the glowing description on the riv site I set up my new
> AHH with the Silver shifters that they sell. I really like the look,
> but so far I've been having a horrible time shifting. I always feel
> like I'm between gears, and I've had a few unpleasant experiences when
> the chain jumped when starting from a dead stop.

Generally that's referred to around here as "ghost shifting." It
happened to me when I tried the original SunTour Sprints on an 8spd
Moulton. I then used the same shifters on a Kogswell P/R set up with 7
spd Hyperglide, and shifting is great.

I believe the problem is 8spd is just too close for me to accurately
shift a system that doesn't give much auditory feedback for misalignment
like Hyperglide.

One thing that's been suggested a lot over the years is to swap the
upper and lower pulleys, so that the upper pulley is the one with no
float at all.

You might also try doing your downshifts with more load on the
drivetrain. When I shift my Kogswell that way, the gears change with a
PLUNK, quite positively. That's entirely counter to how you would shift
an old-time friction system.

[Michael Hechmer]

I hate it when these things happen to me!  

I have two pairs of silver DT shifters and two pairs of BE shifters.  Both pairs of DT shifters worked flawlessly from the get go; both pairs of BE shifters required quite a bit of fussing to get them to work well.  I do use 9 spd cassettes and now get  very few ghost shifts, maybe one per 100 miles on the DT and one per 20 miles on the BE.  

Like you I have many years of experience with friction shifting and after much experimentation decided I really prefer it.  I did have to learn that modern derailleurs shift sooner than classic derailleurs, which always require a slight over shift and then a tiny nudge backwards to center.  Modern derailleurs shift early, but still leave you a couple  of mm short of optimal alignment, so you need to move the shifter a hair more.  I have also found that the D rings on the BE shifters want to come loose, so I have taken to using beeswax, but if I miss a couple of shifts in row, the first thing i do is check the D rings.  BTW, I do use grease, and i think it has helped, but I cant swear on it.  Bottom line is, after much fussing it now seems to work nearly perfectly, but I am unable to say what actually solved the problem.

michael 

[Rex Kerr]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

One thing that's been suggested a lot over the years is to swap the
upper and lower pulleys, so that the upper pulley is the one with no
float at all.

Interesting... never thought of that.  In the past I always just purchased new aluminum pulleys... this be a nice "budget" approach. :-)
 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 17:24 -0700, Rex Kerr wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
> wrote:
> One thing that's been suggested a lot over the years is to
> swap the
> upper and lower pulleys, so that the upper pulley is the one
> with no
> float at all.
>

> Interesting... never thought of that.. In the past I always just

> purchased new aluminum pulleys... this be a nice "budget"
> approach. :-)

And readily reversible, if you don't like the results.

[Joe Bernard]

I think you're on to something in regards to how long the levers are. I had an RB-1 that I switched from Shimano index to Silver friction. I didn't have the direct comparison because I used index before switching, but, nevertheless, the change in length was drastic, and took a while to adapt to. I wouldn't be at all surprised that you may be giving the end of those shifters too big an arc.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I scavenged the Sam Hill Silvers when I built my Fargo and found this:

They are not as precise as Simplex Retrofriction, but more precise
than SunTour Power Ratchets.

I attribute this to the small barrels of the Simplexes, versus the
larger barrels of the Silvers and STs, and longer levers of the
Silvers.

I lost a plastic washer bit from the right shifter and it does not
seem to make any difference.

They worked perfectly with the "low normal" LX that I replaced with an
8-sp era XT, with which latter they seemed to work horribly with a
bastard 7 sp cassette built out of various 9, 8 and 7 sp cogs and
spacers; there were a few cogs that would rattle no matter how I
placed the right shifter. BUT:

Once I decided not to "rush" the shifts and to wait for the ramps, all
seems well. The XT does not shift as perfectly unctuously and
esquisitely as did the newer LX, but it shifts well enough.

FWIW.

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--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
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Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.
(Rilke, Buddha in Glory)

[PATRICK MOORE]

I will contradict, deny, object, contest and defy: it ain't the number
of cogs, it's the shifter and rd. Simplex retrofrictions will shift 10
sp cassettes so sweetly and smoothly that it will make you weep for
the pure joy of it. Even rather crude SunTour retrofrictions will
shift 9 adequately. Silvers are in the middle.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 20:51 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> I will contradict, deny, object, contest and defy: it ain't the number
> of cogs, it's the shifter and rd. Simplex retrofrictions will shift 10
> sp cassettes so sweetly and smoothly that it will make you weep for
> the pure joy of it. Even rather crude SunTour retrofrictions will
> shift 9 adequately. Silvers are in the middle.

You may be able to, I clearly was not. Explain why 8 worked so badly
and 7 works so very well FOR ME with the identical shifters, if it's the
shifters and the rear derailleur.

[charlie]

I have an old Suntour derailleur and a Campagnolo derailleur that work
really nice with no under or over shifts but I am now getting "ghost"
shifts on my newer Deore derailleur..... actually it is a few thousand
miles old but I never thought of getting non floating pully wheels and
wonder where I can buy decent quality ones. My "ghost" shifting bike
also sports a SRAM seven speed cassette and appropriate gauge chain. I
thought of going to a nine speed system and even wondered if my frame
was tweaking under my 258 pound pedal pressure......cable housing is
clean also and I didn't get these problems when the drive train was
set up as a 8 speed and with a different chain. I wonder if my
derailleur is just worn out.

[Rex Kerr]

The pulleys that I bought before were made by a company called "Bullseye".  I think that they've since become yet another page in the history books.  I'm not sure where you'd buy them now.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 09:42 -0700, charlie wrote:
> I never thought of getting non floating pully wheels and
> wonder where I can buy decent quality ones.

You have a perfectly fine non-floating pulley in the lower position.
You could try swapping it with the floating upper, a simple no-cost
solution. Or, if you feel you must spend money,
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/shifting-freewheels-cassettes/parts-maintenance/vo-grand-cru-sealed-bearing-universal-jockey-wheels.html

[Rex Kerr]

Thanks to everybody who gave input...

I finally got around to doing something about the poor shifting.  After a particularly frustrating commute this morning I pulled it apart during a break at work and:

* removed one chain link + set of side plates to increase chain tension

* retracted the b-limit screw a few turns

* swapped the floating & non-floating pullies in the r-der

Not sure which of these helped the most, or if it truly is a combination of those three, but it shifted MUCH better on the way home.  That said, it really looks (to me and a co-worker who's a former bike shop mechanic) like the hanger might be slightly out of alignment, so I might drop in to a local shop to see if they have an alignment gauge to check it out -- I just need to find a shop that I trust. :-)

-Rex