Not So Quick Beam

[Peter Pesce]

I've really been loving the single speeding simplicity of my new-to-me QB, but it's not feeling particularly quick.
I was expecting a slick, efficient, butter-smooth feel to the bike, but it seems a bit more like I'm riding through peanut butter. I'm finding I need to pedal on slight downhills that my Sam and LHT will accelerate while coasting down. Sluggish is about the only way to describe it.

There are a couple of things I'm thinking, and would appreciate any advice:

1) This is my first experience with an Albatross bar and the upright posture may be increasing my (already considerable) wind resistance more than I'm used to.

2) I added a Dos Eno freewheel and it's got a pretty hefty amount of drag. When I have the bike in the stand, and spin the rear wheel in the forward, freewheeling, direction the cranks spin right along too. This doesn't happen with my cassette-equipped bikes. The wheel also doesn't coast (in the stand) nearly as long as my shimano cassette equipped bikes. Maybe this gets better over time? It's a brand new freewheel. I had a Shimano freewheel on it for a while, and the bike felt better, but could the Dos Eno really be that slow?

3) The Jack Brown Blue/Open Sport wheels on the QB are close enough in weight to the Kojak/Dyads on my Sam that I don't think I'm noticing a radical difference in inertia. Tire pressures are checked and fine.

4) This is my first ever single speed (if you don't count the Schwinn BMX bike I had when I was 12) - is there any trick to setting them up that I may not be aware of?  I read all of Sheldon's advice on the topic... my chainline seems fine (wouldn't matter coasting anyway) and the tension seems OK. The wheel is straight....

Thanks in advance for any help,

Pete in CT
SingleSixtySidepullSam... and Quick-ish-beam

[PATRICK MOORE]

A Rivendell ought not, ought not indeed, to feel sluggish!! Something is wrong!

How is the QB set up compared to your other bikes? A much higher bar not only increases wind drag but can prevent the use of powerful muscles - glutes? Back? -- in any event, it is a commonplace the a certain amount of bend - 45* is commonly talked about -- increases power; something I can feel whenever I go into the hooks. You don't need low bars to take advantage of this; while my Rivs have the hooks as low as I can comfortably ride in for several miles, my Fargo has the bar slightly higher than the saddle, with the hooks giving me a position similar to the hoods on my Rivs. I don't feel sluggish unless I sit bolt upright, with hands on the flats.

Tires: the JB Greens I had on the briefly owned Sam Hill felt nice and fast, but if the Blues are belted, they may be indeed slower: Jan Heine put tire rolling resistance as second only to wind resistance as a factor in  the amount of speed you get for a given output. I do know that the Kojak 35s, 559 and 622, roll very well despite *their* belt, but I find, for example, Pasela Tourguards to be real dogs.

The Sam Hill certainly didn't feel as fast as my customs but it didn't feel any more sluggish than the Fargo with similar tires. (I just didn't like its handling.)

Mr Tuffys? Horrible, evil things -- they immediately rob you of 35% of your speed. Cyintifik fakt. Seriously, they do make the bike feel sluggish. Even worse, diabolically worse, are "thorn proof" tubes.

Binding freewheel? Perhaps, but if the QB feels sluggish when pedaling, that's not the cause.

Dragging brake? And, one more: too tight a chain? I recently re-installed the wheel in my '03, fixed gear, and rode it and didn't notice until I stopped that the rear wheel was not spinning smoothly as usual: the culprit was a binding chain -- this even though I had carefully adjusted the wheel at the outset. There is a technique called "walking" the rear axle to the right position, whereby you alternately tighten the nut on one side after adjusting the wheel until you have just the right position -- a good technique to learn with a sliding axle. 

Me, I felt sluggish on the way home just now but that was because of an annoying headwind -- we are getting into NM's windy season, tho' it's pretty windy here year 'round.

Let us know  what, if anything, works -- there has got to be a reason; I can't believe a Riv model as such simply feels sluggish.

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[Bill Gibson]

I think that position and tires make the biggest differences in ride feel, then maybe the feeling of stability and ride viscosity is due to sturdy, oversize frame tubes in their geometric configuration; it doesn't "plane" for me, but I like it well because it is sturdy, and I feel I can ride it on rough dirt roads as well as the pavement.

 

I don't think the bearings, or the chainline, make any real difference to riding, although you may feel the bearings are stiffer. I don't think any of the bearings are adjustable? I don't think bearings break in much in a way that affects riding friction.

But tires: it's not just weight. Apparently, the flexibility of the tire, in spite of it's pneumatic firmness, has a real effect on your riding efficiency. And, tire pressure can give you the impression of zippiness or lack of it without affecting your real speed. Even then, there are other factors: puncture resistance, durabilty, etc.

 

Most of the time I attribute sluggishness to my own state of fitness, however!

 

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Peter Pesce]

Thanks guys.

I'm certainly not implying it's anything inherent in the bike, and I should be clear that my baseline reference for "sluggish" is pretty darn low! It's just a distinct feeling that I'm pedaling through peanut butter. I certainly don't expect it to "plane" but I expected at least as much spirit as my LHT. The frame doesn't feel dead, if anything it's too lively under my 230 lbs.Maybe it's "anti-planing?" Really, though, it's the slow coasting that has me stumped.

I may do some experiments and switch back to the old freewheel, and maybe swap on my 35mm Kojaks.

I will check the chain tension, too, Patrick. And double check for brake drag - it's so often the simple things, isn't it!

-Pete

[Liesl]

I'm with Patrick that your Quickbeam should not and in fact never feel
sluggish--something's off. My partner has a QB and says that it's
like wearing a silk chemise instead of a wooly ski sweater when
comparing it to her trusty Surly LHT.

I have what I refer to as a faux QB that I set up before the last run
of silver QB's that included little frames. My faux QB is a riv
protobleriot frame set up with an Eccentric Eno hub and a Dos Eno
freewheel (also a White hub on the front). One thing I would add, in
addition to the good discussion of tires and chain tension, is sneaky
tire clearance. I went from Maxy Fasties (650B x 33) to Soma
Xpresses (650B x 38) and everything looked great but the normally
sprite little bike felt alarmingly sluggish. After calling a bike
mechanic friend and taking a pit stop at a most excellently placed
bike shop on my morning commute, we found the culprit: the inside
fender bolt on the brace between chainstays ('inside' meaning between
the fender and the road surface of the tire) was rubbing on the tire –
but it was totally not visible. Replaced the regular bolt with a
button-headed bolt and voilá! Mystery solved! (And I felt pretty
stupid, but live and learn.)

The shop also adjusted and cleaned the Dos freewheel, which also felt
great. One thing I came to understand is that your Dos *should* have
a pleasant click-click-click when you coast. It had gradually gone
away without my really noticing it and once it was adjusted and
cleaned, the click came back and it felt better. (Not to stir up an
old off-topic thread, but it's just like an old BMW motorcycle--the
valves *should* tick-tick-tick when they're in adjustment). With two
White hubs in proper form, it coasts wonderfully.

-liesl clicking happily along between minneapolis and st paul

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I bet the Kojaks will fix it. I have always felt sluggish with the JB blues. I tried them on three bikes and, after I gave up, loaned them to two friends, and the feeling seems to be universal. JB Greens, which are similar to Kojaks, are another thing entirely, fast and lively feeling.

[charlie]

I'm currently running Panaracer T Serves 700x35 on my SimpleOne at
around 85 psi. I am 258 pounds of old fatness and run my chain a
little on the loose side, not saggy, just a little loose, otherwise it
binds a little on the chain ring. With no deraileur spring to take up
or increase slack you'll get some binding. When it comes to coasting,
I can coast forever it seems. I did get some brake shoe drag early on
and it made it considerably harder to pedal. Your QB/SO should be easy
to pedal.....of course that depends on the gearing somewhat. My main
cruising gear is only 66 inches which works for me in my area. I ride
a LHT geared bike currently with 700x47's Schwalbes at 60 psi and the
bike weighs 40 pounds so my SO feels fast. For bars I use Nitto (45 cm
wide at the drops 36cm at the hoods) Rando bars and ride the hoods 90%
of the time. I think you have a tight chain, off angled rear tire or a
dragging brake.

[Mark Fredrickson]

How is the chain line? Are you running a double chainring up front or
a single? Does the bike coast in the stand better on one of the two
cogs on the DOS? Are you sure you have the correct width chain (3/32"
I believe)? Could you stick a fixed cog on the flop side, even just
temporarily, to remove the freewheel from the equation?

Others are probably correct that tires may be your cure, but I'd check
the drive train as well.

Good luck!
- M

[Frank Brose]

First thing I do when a bike feels like a pig is start with the tires.

On Feb 10, 1:48 pm, Peter Pesce <petepe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andrew]

My 66cm QuickBeam is the first single-speed I've had in a long, long time. I'm riding it in a fixed-gear (40/16) with JackBrown Blues (85 psi) and I would not say it's slow or sluggish at all - in fact, just the opposite, and a delight to ride in every way. One thing that could make a bike feel sluggish is loose spokes - are the spokes properly tensioned on the OP's wheels?

On chain tension (which is a negligible issue on bikes with derailers), I have found that there can be significant variability through the rotation of the cranks, if the chainring is not perfectly centered relative to the BB axle. With some patient adjusting, I've found it's possible to get the ring centered, just back off the bolts, then slowly snug a couple of them, rotate the cranks, and note where the chain gets tight. Then relax one or more bolts enough to nudge the ring to the rear a very small amount, snug back, and test again. It's an iterative process, but the chainring can be made to center around the BB with no discernable variation in chain tension.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[CycloFiend]

Hmmm... something does sound a bit off in your description.

I'd probably work from the ground up - I've actually not run the Kojaks, so
I don't have an A/B comparison. But, I'd swap the tires over to see if it's
more to your liking.

Then I'd take careful look at the hubs. If your rear wheel is not coasting
that long, you may have excessive load on the bearings. If you have
cartridge bearings, make sure that you aren't compressing them when
tightening the rear axle in the fork ends. With the bike in the stand, I
would pull the chain off and see how it functions with no freewheel load. A
lot of time, hubs can act fine until tightened into the frame.

That freewheel sounds a little "new" - hopefully. The White fw has always
felt like it has stronger engagement, but again, my first hand experience
with one has been limited to not-on-the-bike futzing. I don't recall if
there is a tension adjustment on those - you might give White a call. If
it's new, I'd expect the factory grease to be part of the tension issue.

I'd check side load on the bb as well. Those cranks should spin pretty much
forever with no chain attached.

Bear in mind that running a single speed freewheel bicycle is a bit
different than a geared setup. You may find that your personally
"efficiency" - the cadence and effort that you lapse into most often - is a
bit different than the way the bicycle is geared. You may want to figure
out what gearing you tend to end up in on the other bike, then see if you
can match that with the QB.

Also, minor differences in saddle and bars setup can be quite noticeable.
My QB and my Hilsen are set up fairly closley, but when I go from one to the
other, there's always a little feeling of inefficiency at first - the bikes
have different saddles and slightly different positions. Quite simply, the
more miles I put on one bike, the more noticible that is when I switch back
over.

Hope this helps,

- Jim

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[Peter Pesce]

Thanks for all the great responses.
I'm hoping to work methodically through the variables over the weekend, so I can identify the real issue and (hopefully) learn a thing or 2 in the process. Rather than my usual "change a bunch of stuff and hope for an improvement" method!

I'll keep you posted.

Pete in CT

[Montclair BobbyB]

To remove any doubt, just temporarily throw on a set of skinny go-fast
wheels (if you have em)... It's simply GOT to be the hubs or the
rubber (unless the brakes are dragging)... those are the only 2
factors that would create a noticeable difference.

Good luck
BB

[Minh]

Hi Pete,

I wanted to throw in my 2 cents, i was in a similiar situation to you
a few months back when i picked up my quickbeam. It was immediately
the fastest feeling bike i had in terms of responsiveness and reacting
to my movements. i also have a dos freewheel and mine does the same
thing as yours when coasting in the stand (the cranks will move
instead of free wheeling)

i don't think it's that, and if your qb has the standard cranks and bb
length, i don't think it's a chainline issue either. i would look at
the tires and even the inflation of the tires if it feels slow.

the other big thing i want to add is that my qb came with moustache
bars and a pretty high stem (i ride a 60qb but a 56 hillborne), and
that's what felt super responsive in traffic etc. at the end of the
season i switched over to alba bars that are a little bit lower. that
change in position--either from the alba bars or the height change,
really changed the feel of the bike. while the leverage etc is about
the same, i don';t quite feel 'into' the bike as much as on top of
if. i love alba bars but i'm having second thoughts about them on my
qb, luckily i set it up so they are easily swappable back and forth.
if the non-cost items are exhausted, think about a cockpit swap.

[Peter Pesce]

Winds gusting to 40 today, so it's a bit tough to check for sluggishness. You're either rocketing along with a tailwind, or barely moving.
Early investigations on the drivetrain reveal a slightly too tight chain, which isn't helping pedaling efficiency or bearing looseness. The chainline is good, and the BB is good. The WI freewheel is definately tighter than the Shimano. The pawl springs are so strong the cog will actually rotate backwards if you turn it to the point just before it clicks, and release it. Still, I don't think it's so bad that it's the whole cause of the sluggish perception.
I plan to commute this week on the Kojaks to get a large sample size of experiences with them, then see where we are.
Thanks all.
Pete

[charlie]

I use the White 16-19 freewheel also.....I just blast the pawls with a
little Tri-flow oil now and then and while the pawls are stiff and the
cranks will rotate on a repair stand you actually want good strong
springs in the pawls for positive engagement. The weight of the rider
and bike will easily overcome any resistance in the freewheel
mechanism and it'll coast just fine. I do however agree with some of
the others.... I prefer mustache or drop bars for that 45 degree back
angle. The albatross bars are okay depending on how you have them set
up. I found that even with the longer stem recommended the front end
feels too light and I feel too upright. On a townie or crusier bicycle
for short trips its no biggie but a single speed meant for road riding
needs a more aerodynamic position that also takes advantage of your
glute muscles more. My opinion of course but you might try a longer
stem or lower the bars a speck and see if that helps. Try riding out
on the curve of the bar and see if you notice a difference. My own
albatross bars were mounted upside down to take advantage of that sort
of like a shallow mustache bar.

[Phil Bickford]

Pete, & All:

Thanks for giving us the blow by blow details of your slow coasting
dilemma. One of my first thoughts were the chain tension being the
culprit. I know, I've done it as well with my White eno. It's easy
to get to much purchase with a wrench around the axle. =;O
So I've been perplexed by that same slow coasting sensation you get
with a too tight chain.

So looking at my townie I see perhaps more slack than I should have.
It's better to err on that side of things I think - as long as the
chain can't jump off your teeth. Not that you really need that much
either, but we of the age of derailleurs didn't have the business of
chain tension burned into or ROM at a young age.

Does anyone know a good web source for chain tension instruction? I
haven't seen one. I run enough slack so I can shake the chain 3-4cm
from top of shake to bottom. That may seem excessive to some - but my
ride coasts like there's no tomorrow.

When sighting down the chain, if you can't see some sag easily it's
too tight.

Phil B

[lexm]

On Feb 12, 4:31 pm, Phil Bickford <phi...@sonic.net> wrote:

> Does anyone know a good web source for chain tension instruction?  I
> haven't seen one. I run enough slack so I can shake the chain 3-4cm
> from top of shake to bottom.  That may seem excessive to some - but my
> ride coasts like there's no tomorrow.

Lurker here (who has a SimpleOne frame on order).

This three-minute Park Tool instruction video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9la5VTbeQHo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

is nominally focused on the SRAM Torpedo fixed/free hub, but if you
watch from the 1:23 mark the advice about chain tension is of general
application and helped me to get the hang of tensioning the chains on
my single speed and IGH bikes.

With all good wishes,
lexm

[Andrew]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:02 PM, lexm <alexei....@gmail.com> wrote:

Lurker here (who has a SimpleOne frame on order).

This three-minute Park Tool instruction video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9la5VTbeQHo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

is nominally focused on the SRAM Torpedo fixed/free hub, but if you
watch from the 1:23 mark the advice about chain tension is of general
application and helped me to get the hang of tensioning the chains on
my single speed and IGH bikes.

With all good wishes,
lexm

What a brilliant and simple test for whether a chain is too slack - use your handy Park Beer bottle opener to see if you can force the chain to derail. Just yesterday, after thinking about comments on this thread, I added a nudge of slack to the chain on my fixed-gear QuickBeam. Maybe it was too tight, for it pedals smoother now, with less noise.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Jeremy Till]

i would also focus on chain tension as the culprit; it's easy, esp. when you're first riding SS or fixed, to focus on derailment to the point of getting it too tight for efficiency.  The truth is, single cog drivetrains feel best with the absolute minimum amount of tension needed to prevent derailment.  Tension is much more critical in off-road riding or fixed gear riding, where bumps or high-rpm pedaling increase the chances of derailment; for on-road SS riding, it's much easier to err on the side of too slack.  But even with a fixed gear, you'd be surprised how slack you can run the chain without any real danger (assuming good chainline, of course); check out pictures of track racers' bikes at rest and you'll see what i mean.  The chain should sag just enough to see it when it's at rest. 

[John Blish]

Jeremy,

Thanks.  I read your email to my SS RedLine Monocog.  It nodded its stem and bars in agreement, winked a brake lever at me and then responded by showing just that amount of chain slack as you have described.  I caught it in a photo and I agree with you completely on not running a SS chain too taut.  What a show-off that bike is.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111838829033930119881/albums/5708720188748611345

-jb

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

i would also focus on chain tension as the culprit; it's easy, esp. when you're first riding SS or fixed, to focus on derailment to the point of getting it too tight for efficiency.  The truth is, single cog drivetrains feel best with the absolute minimum amount of tension needed to prevent derailment.  Tension is much more critical in off-road riding or fixed gear riding, where bumps or high-rpm pedaling increase the chances of derailment; for on-road SS riding, it's much easier to err on the side of too slack.  But even with a fixed gear, you'd be surprised how slack you can run the chain without any real danger (assuming good chainline, of course); check out pictures of track racers' bikes at rest and you'll see what i mean.  The chain should sag just enough to see it when it's at rest. 

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[Peter Pesce]

This is really great, helpful, info for a SS newbie! Thanks all.

I was REALLY running my chain too tight! I might even loosen it some more for the commute home.

-Pete in CT

[Jeremy Till]

Found a picture of one of Sheldon's (RIP) old fixed gears, which in my mind demonstrates just the proper amount of tension. 

http://sheldonbrown.org/images/ral-int-nospox-big.gif

[cyclotourist]

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[Andrew]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

Found a picture of one of Sheldon's (RIP) old fixed gears, which in my mind demonstrates just the proper amount of tension. 

http://sheldonbrown.org/images/ral-int-nospox-big.gif

Question for the group: Does a sagging bicycle chain follow the shape of a catenary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary (fun reading there).

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Peter Pesce]

Great pic.
If you lay a straight edge over the top of the chain you could measure the "static sag" and provide a very good rule-of-thumb for setting up single speeds. To be verified by the Park beer bottle opener test, of course!  From the photo it looks like about 1/4 - 3/8 inch?
This might be more reliable even than the up-down wiggle test, as the force of gravity is pretty constant.

Pete in CT

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

There's a fine line between slack and super-taut that I consider optimal. I mostly ride my single-speeds fixed-gear, and I find a loose chain unnerving when I'm transitioning from forward pedaling to back-pressuring and back to forward pedaling again. With a freewheel, I'd probably run a bit looser.

[Rick]

Andrew got all funicular on us. The eyeball says the chain is a tad
short of chainette, but I'm an english major. That being said, my
favorite bit was:

"This implies that Square wheels can roll perfectly smoothly if the
road has evenly spaced bumps in the shape of a series of inverted
catenary curves."


On Feb 13, 10:33 pm, Andrew <ashtab...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeremy Till <jeremy.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Found a picture of one of Sheldon's (RIP) old fixed gears, which in my
> > mind demonstrates just the proper amount of tension.
>
> >http://sheldonbrown.org/images/ral-int-nospox-big.gif
>
> Question for the group: Does a sagging bicycle chain follow the shape of a
> catenary?
>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary(fun reading there).
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley

[Marc Schwartz]

As long as there's no stiff links, yessir.
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Andrew [asht...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 8:33 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Not So Quick Beam

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com<mailto:jerem...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Found a picture of one of Sheldon's (RIP) old fixed gears, which in my mind demonstrates just the proper amount of tension.

http://sheldonbrown.org/images/ral-int-nospox-big.gif

Question for the group: Does a sagging bicycle chain follow the shape of a catenary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary (fun reading there).

- Andrew, Berkeley

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

[Peter Pesce]

I just wanted to close out this mystery and thank you all for the tips.
I'm pretty sure what I was experiencing was a combination of factors, in no particular order:

1) The chain was definitely too tight. Proper, looser tension helps, more so while pedaling than coasting. The WI freewheel still appears to have a good deal more drag than the Shimano, on the stand, but after swapping them back and forth a few times I can't say it's really noticeable on the road.

2) The tires were a biggie. Replacing the JB's with the Kojaks made a big difference. Upon removing the JB's I was very surprised how stiff the carcass is. Much more so than my wire-bead 35mm TG Paselas, and no comparison at all with a Kojak or folding Pasela. I have folding TG Paselas on the bike at the moment and even they feel much better than the JB's (despite the widespread derision of the TG, I've been quite happy with TG Paselas in the past, especially the folding version)

3) Riding position - it's clear that the upright position of the Alba bars is not doing me any favors aerodynamically or biomechanically. As I'm planning to use my QB as a town bike for now, I'm happy to live with this and just relax and be slower, now that it doesn't feel so much like the bike is actually fighting me. I lowered the bars a bit, and taped the front curves, too. I find the hand positions there are very comfortable and more powerful - great for climbing and headwinds.

My last few days of riding on the 'Beam have been more enjoyable and I feel like the bike is displaying more of its true character.

-Pete in CT
SingleSixtySidepullSam... and QuickerBeam

[PATRICK MOORE]

Very glad your problem is largely solved. It would have indeed been sad if a bike as lovely (by all accounts) as the QB were to feel awkward and slow.

Photos, please ....?

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

[Peter Pesce]

Just one phone pic at the moment. (Apologies for the busy background.)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ppesce/6775321708/in/photostream

-Pete

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks, Peter -- makes me nostalgic for another ss/fixed ride: God willing, tomorrow. Today was windy and I was tired from yesterday whose 29 mile round of errands ended at almost 9 pm with 4-5 miles of climbing into a stiff headwind in a 72" gear -- another prodding to convert one of my Riv fixies to a gearie. Or buy a Roadeo or RB1. Old age and weakness ...

And your photo is better than many of mine!

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[Peter Pesce]

Thanks Patrick.
I may have pictures but you've got the thousand words!

Pete

[Bill Gibson]

hehehe, I was right! tires are an answer, if not the answer. A good reason to have many bikes is to ride in different natural positions and for different natural reasons. Consider a sprung saddle, such as the Brooks Champion, for your silver steed, or...

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/s4-11043.htm 

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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[Peter Pesce]

Bill-

I thought about a sprung saddle - I've always been intrigued by the B72 actually - but I'm quite surprised/happy with how much extra "spring" the bike has now with the slightly larger, slightly lower pressure, and more compliant (can't say "supple" any more!) Paselas, compared to the JB's.

Of course, I could just be stressing the frame and fork right up to its limits!

-Pete

[Minh]

I run 37mm Pasela TG and have no need for a spring saddle, in fact i
switched from a split center selle anatomica to a berthoud because
there is so much cushion with the wider tires.