Hand Numbness, an observation

[Mojo]

Recently over on the Surly Long Haul Trucker list, there was a thread on bike setup and comfort. The original poster was complaining about hand numbness and most folks wrote in with the advice to raise the bars and move the saddle aft to take pressure off the hands. I didn't have any good further advice for the OP. But I do have an associated observation.

After riding low-handlebar racing type bikes from 1976-2001, I have been riding more Rivendell-influenced bikes ever since, with my handlebars very near saddle height and saddle now set back 1-2cm behind KOPS. I have always had very minor numb hand issues. I just usually shake them out and they are fine for several more miles or even hours. But I have observed over the last few years that my numb hands seem to occur most often when climbing, less so riding the flats, and never descending. This observation seems to run counter to the idea that it is the extra weight on the hands that creates numbness.

 

Again its just a minor problem for me. I nearly always wear gloves. My bars are all thinly wrapped in cork/fake cork. My reach is fairly generous. 

Now of course on a loop ride I will be spending much more time climbing than descending and maybe the most amout of time overall riding on mostly flat roads. But if the theory that more weight on the hands leads to numbness, why am I not feeling it at the bottom of my descents instead of on the climbs? I really don't even have an hypothesis at this point. Thoughts?

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Maybe you are gripping your handlebars harder on climbs or you focus
on making it through the climb and don't move your hands as much. I
know that for me, moving my hands around a bunch will help me prevent
the hand numbness...

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Mojo <gjtr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]

[lungimsam]

I have also struggled with hand numbness over the years.

 

Idea #1:

Try moving your saddle all the way back and see what happens.

When my saddle was forward, I got numb hands. When moved further back, I got aching hands.

When shoved all the way back, my hands are now feeling more comfortable than ever. Much better. Seems like barely any problems now.

 

Other thoughts:

Do you use a different hand position when descending than climbing? So hands pressing into the bars differently?

Is most of your weight on the pedals while descending, like a jockey?

Do you move your behind backwards over the saddle and stretch out when descending?

[Kelly]

For me numb hands occurred with rough roads and aggressive riding position and or saddle to handlebar to close.  Both cases increased the amount of weight on my hands.  I also have some hand soreness / numbness on mustache bars extended to far out.  In all cases rough roads make it worse.  Since selling my race bike and buying a AHH I haven't worn gloves or experienced any issues.  Well one exception, Brooks Tape, rough roads and long ride with no gloves. But then it was minor.  I don't wear gloves.   On the Mustache Bars I raised bars with dirt drop which brought it back a touch as well.  Been a nice ride since.

Kelly

[Mojo]

Thanks for the replies guys. So this is an observation unique to me, not others?

 

My saddle position is now fixed after years of experimentation, and then stems/bars adjusted to that. So I am not moving the saddle. 

 

I typically climb on the ramps or hoods but at times in the drops (one of the revelations of higher bars- climbing in the hooks!). I climb out the saddle - 10-20% of the time. Descent hand positions are similarly varied, most often on the hoods. I don't think I grip the bars differently when I climb unless its a super hard, short effort. 

 

I just went for a nice dirt ride with my son on flat bar fat bikes with plenty of climbing. No hand numbness noted. Hmmm....

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I also experience most or my hand and crotch discomfort/numbness on prolonged climbs, with various bars.

A number of years ago, I built up my first fixed gear. I intended to ride off-road on it, so I geared it pretty low, like 50 inches. I had a heckuva time riding that bike without hand (and butt) numbness and discomfort, even after various riser stems/bars were installed, and I'd screwed around with saddle position. Nothing seemed to work. Then one of my friends invited me on a more road-oriented ride, and I knew I'd need a taller gear to keep up. I screwed on a smaller cog, which geared me up to maybe 65 inches. Suddenly, and with no other changes, the bike became amazingly comfortable. I attributed this to the weight offset of simply pressing harder on the pedals. Later I did back to back centuries on that bike, and lots of commuting, with no comfort issues. I also experimented with different stems and bars and positions, and all worked great with the slightly higher gearing.

To bring this back to the topic at hand, perhaps having LOW gears on your bike allows you to spin too easily up hills. If your knees allow it, try to pedal a somewhat higher gear when climbing to see if that keeps the numbness away.

Or consider a quote attributed to GP:
“On steep hills, you have to get off. This is good for you. Rather than grunt like an overgeared fool, you get off and hoof it. It’s almost, but not exactly, like being a duathlete!”

[Mojo]

Interesting ideas Jim, thanks. Yes, I have been trying to climb at a higher rpm, more like 75-85 instead of 55-65. I will try one cog smaller on the next climb and see if it changes things. And related, this morning's dirt ride was most often grunting at rather low rpm up dirt climbs and no hand numbness then.

 

Another data point, all of my drop bars are now Nitto Noodles, 44 or 46cm.

 

And if anyone wants some used 26.0 handlebars for cheap, let me know:

2 Nitto Dream Bars 44cm,

2 Nitto 115 (38top/45drop wide),

a creaky 46cm Nitto Noodle, 

Cinelli Campione del Mundo 44cm;

or 26.0 stems:

Technomic long 19cm quill 11cm extension,

Cinelli 1A rare 14cm extension

[Marc Irwin]

I have experienced no,none, nada numbness on the Bosco Bars I use with stoker knobs.  I've had a problem with hand numbness on everything else for years.

Marc

[pb]

 

FWIW, I get less hand numbness when riding without gloves than with.  I don't like that fact, because I went down hard without gloves once.  Palms take a long time to heal.  

 

I just picked up a pair of the Specialized "74" gloves, which are made of thin, unpadded leather.  Haven't ridden with them yet, but I'm hoping that the lack of padding will give me the same result as riding without.

 

~pb

[Joe Broach]

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:39 PM, pb <pbrid...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I get less hand numbness when riding without gloves than with. I
> don't like that fact, because I went down hard without gloves once. Palms
> take a long time to heal.

I've had the same experience--comfier without, except when I crash. I
ride mostly without (in warm season) but maybe should look for
something non-padded. Winter gloves are better but still bother my
hands.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[bwphoto]

Back in the 70s I would experience some hand numbness after about 50-60 miles, for quite a few years the standard fix was to put the effected hand behind my back, squeeze my fingers several times and the problem would be gone. At the same time I started playing around with both saddle and brake position and found that a slight upward tilt of the nose took care of most of the of the problem. After getting saddle tilt correct I started moving the brake hoods slightly up and down until my wrist was straight when on the hood. Both adjustments pretty much took care of the issue.

A few years ago I mentioned the issue to my neurologist...the issue of hand and finger numbness stems mostly from pinching the nerve canal that takes the nerves through the wrist into the hand and fingers. Keeping that channel open by not riding long with the wrists bent helps to reduce the numbness. However, as we age and get more arthritic those channels naturally narrow making it easier for the nerves to be effected.

I spent a lot of time this year on my mountain bike this year using it as my main errand vehicle and nothing seemed to reduce the hand and finger numbness. I tried the Ergo bar ends changed handle bars saddle height etc. nothing made a difference. I don't have that problem with my Sam or my other road bikes. the straight handlebars combined with frame geometry would not allow me to decrease the wrist bend enough to keep the wrist nerve channel open.

Apparently the problem is similar to other repetitive injuries caused by joint position.   

So maybe play round with both saddle and handlebar positioning, and because we each have unique anatomic issues works for one may not work for another.

[Steven Frederick]

For me raising the bars too much increased my hand/arm discomfort. It
felt like I was trying to push through the bars to get my hands lower
so I had more pressure on my hands. The fact that you have trouble
when climbing reinforces this to me--your bars are higher in relation
to your saddle, and you're trying to lean in and power forward. Try
dropping your bars just a teeny bit--coupla mm--and see if it's
better.

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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[Rex Kerr]

I find this advice to push the saddle back rather curious...

When I built up my AHH I took this advice into account and bought a setback seatpost... for a few months I wondered why I felt so slow and weak and couldn't get comfortable on the bike... until one day it hit me, when I shoved the saddle all of the way forward (back to where it was on a straight seatpost) and suddenly I felt like I had strength and was comfortable again!  Problem now is that it looks funny.  Speaking of which, anybody in the Sac, CA area want to trade a VO Grand Cru Seat Post, Long Setback for a straight seatpost of similar quality? :-)

-Rex

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Rex: do you sit up pretty straight to pedal? I'm curious because my experience is exactly your opposite. I felt that I was "losing the stroke" at TDC, this with a forward seatpost, and Grant told me to shove it back -- and it worked wonderfully.

I look at old DL1s and Dutch roadsters on which people sit bolt upright, and the saddles were traditionally set rather forward on the seat "pin" -- straight, separate-clamp sp -- but then, with their very slack st angles even such a saddle would be well behind the bb shell. I know from experience -- my own from riding Indian equivalents -- and from watching others ride them that, when there is a need for power, the body tends to bend forward.

--
"Believe nothing until it has been officially denied."
                                                   -- Claude Cockburn

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[PATRICK MOORE]

Forgot to add this, from Sheldon.

[lungimsam]

I use the NITTO 65 seatpost, which has not much setback. I have the B17 all the way back on it.

This setup seems to have taken the weight off my hands, and I feel fine pedalling.

I can take me hands off the bars, and can still keep from falling forward with only a little foot pressure to hold myself up.

 

When I had the saddle fully forward on the seatpost, I felt numbness and pressure on hands. Felt like I was falling forward all the time.

 

Moving it back seems to have brought my weight back behind the bb enough so I don't have to hold myself up with the hands so much.

 

I like it so far. 

[Kenneth Stagg]

Not that curious.  It's advice concerning weight on the hands, not power.  Peter White has an excellent explanation of why this works, but he also says that it's not for everyone.  Personally I find it more comfortable well back but if I'm working harder (i.e. trying to go fast, or at least what passes for fast for me) I tend to slide forward some.  I will say that I've noticed the difference on a bike that wasn't changed except for the addition of the VO seat post - it took a noticeable amount of pressure off of my hands.

-Ken