Reorganizing the Pylons organization

[John Anderson]

There is a lot of confusion around the "Pylons" organization and I think in general our http://www.pylonsproject.org/ website doesn't help alleviate any of that confusion.  For example you can't even go to http://www.pylonsproject.org/projects and get a list of Pylons projects, this just redirects to Pyramid's about page.

I feel we should decide which are "official" pylons projects and make it extremely obvious which ones fall under this umbrella.  Off the top of my head the following are ones probably worth listing under this umbrella:

https://github.com/Pylons/colander

https://github.com/Pylons/deform

https://github.com/Pylons/substanced

https://github.com/Pylons/venusian

https://github.com/Pylons/waitress

https://github.com/Pylons/webtest

https://github.com/Pylons/webob

Now they all already live under the /Pylons/ organization on github but there are plenty of less "complete" projects underneath that organization that makes it hard to track down which are ready for prime time.

The other big issue is a lot of these live under their domain, under pythonpaste.org, or don't have a website outside of readthedocs at all. 

I propose that we create subdomains for each of them and make sure to be consistent on including a footer that mentions that they are pylons projects.  This would be similar to how the Apache organization manages their projects:

http://kafka.apache.org/

https://spark.apache.org/

http://cassandra.apache.org/

and how pocoo does it:

http://flask.pocoo.org/

http://click.pocoo.org/

http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/

It would probably also make sense to try to maintain a more consistent brand across each projects website as well. Allowing each project to have some personality of their own will be important by keeping a standard color scheme and layout would help people recognize a pylons project immediately.

What do you wonderful humans think?

- sontek

[Steve Piercy]

On 12/25/14 at 10:56 PM, son...@gmail.com (John Anderson) pronounced:

>There is a lot of confusion around the "Pylons" organization and I think in
>general our http://www.pylonsproject.org/ website doesn't help alleviate
>any of that confusion. For example you can't even go to
>http://www.pylonsproject.org/projects and get a list of Pylons projects,
>this just redirects to Pyramid's about page.

http://www.pocoo.org does a nice job of being the *organization*
web site. I think http://www.pylonsproject.org should follow suit.

>I feel we should decide which are "official" pylons projects and make it
>extremely obvious which ones fall under this umbrella. Off the top of my
>head the following are ones probably worth listing under this umbrella:
>
>https://github.com/Pylons/colander
>https://github.com/Pylons/deform
>https://github.com/Pylons/substanced
>https://github.com/Pylons/venusian
>https://github.com/Pylons/waitress
>https://github.com/Pylons/webtest
>https://github.com/Pylons/webob

Agreed.

>Now they all already live under the /Pylons/ organization on github but
>there are plenty of less "complete" projects underneath that organization
>that makes it hard to track down which are ready for prime time.

Yes. GitHub is not a good way to present "featured" or
"official" projects.

>The other big issue is a lot of these live under their domain, under
>pythonpaste.org, or don't have a website outside of readthedocs at all.
>
>I propose that we create subdomains for each of them and make sure to be
>consistent on including a footer that mentions that they are pylons
>projects. This would be similar to how the Apache organization manages
>their projects:
>
>http://kafka.apache.org/
>https://spark.apache.org/
>http://cassandra.apache.org/
>
>and how pocoo does it:
>
>http://flask.pocoo.org/
>http://click.pocoo.org/
>http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/

Agreed.
http://pyramid.pylonsproject.org/

>It would probably also make sense to try to maintain a more consistent
>brand across each projects website as well. Allowing each project to have
>some personality of their own will be important by keeping a standard color
>scheme and layout would help people recognize a pylons project immediately.

At the last PyCon Pyramid sprint, we started doing just that with:
http://trypyramid.com/

We went with Bootstrap 3 and kept it stupid simple with very few
changes. Thus if any *real* designer wants to take up the
mantle, it should be very easy for them to do so.

A page has only three basic parts.

=======================
Project Logo/navigation
-----------------------
Content
-----------------------
Pylons Project branding
=======================

--steve

>What do you wonderful humans think?
>
>- sontek
>

------------------------
Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA

[Paul Everitt]

FWIW, 2 years ago Blaise and I worked on an effort that we, alas, never finished, to have a Pyramid-targeted landing page. I wrote/re-wrote/re-re-re-re-re-wrote some marketing copy for Pyramid.

—Paul

>
> A page has only three basic parts.
>
> =======================
> Project Logo/navigation
> -----------------------
> Content
> -----------------------
> Pylons Project branding
> =======================
>
> --steve
>
>> What do you wonderful humans think?
>>
>> - sontek
>>
>
> ------------------------
> Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA
>

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[Blaise Laflamme]

You're right about this issue and I think time has come to do something.

Me and Paul started some efforts on this and never finished it but we were on a good track I think. What I suggested him lately was to streamline and narrow the original scope and start work on unifying what we have.

For sure I need to finish the brand stuff I already started and spread it across what we already have online but we also need to rethink how the information is structured and how we relate everything.

I propose to move this discussion over slack :)

[Paul Everitt]

On Dec 26, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Blaise Laflamme <bla...@laflamme.org> wrote:

You're right about this issue and I think time has come to do something.

Me and Paul started some efforts on this and never finished it but we were on a good track I think. What I suggested him lately was to streamline and narrow the original scope and start work on unifying what we have.

For sure I need to finish the brand stuff I already started and spread it across what we already have online but we also need to rethink how the information is structured and how we relate everything.

I propose to move this discussion over slack :)

Sounds fun. Let’s create a #pylons there..oh wait, we don’t want to perpetuate the word “Pylons”…oh wait, we want to reinforce it as an umbrella. Core dump. :)

I think a Slack channel would be good.

—Paul

On Friday, December 26, 2014 1:56:07 AM UTC-5, Sontek wrote:

There is a lot of confusion around the "Pylons" organization and I think in general our http://www.pylonsproject.org/ website doesn't help alleviate any of that confusion.  For example you can't even go to http://www.pylonsproject.org/projects and get a list of Pylons projects, this just redirects to Pyramid's about page.

I feel we should decide which are "official" pylons projects and make it extremely obvious which ones fall under this umbrella.  Off the top of my head the following are ones probably worth listing under this umbrella:

https://github.com/Pylons/colander

https://github.com/Pylons/deform

https://github.com/Pylons/substanced

https://github.com/Pylons/venusian

https://github.com/Pylons/waitress

https://github.com/Pylons/webtest

https://github.com/Pylons/webob

Now they all already live under the /Pylons/ organization on github but there are plenty of less "complete" projects underneath that organization that makes it hard to track down which are ready for prime time.

The other big issue is a lot of these live under their domain, under pythonpaste.org, or don't have a website outside of readthedocs at all. 

I propose that we create subdomains for each of them and make sure to be consistent on including a footer that mentions that they are pylons projects.  This would be similar to how the Apache organization manages their projects:

http://kafka.apache.org/

https://spark.apache.org/

http://cassandra.apache.org/

and how pocoo does it:

http://flask.pocoo.org/

http://click.pocoo.org/

http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/

It would probably also make sense to try to maintain a more consistent brand across each projects website as well. Allowing each project to have some personality of their own will be important by keeping a standard color scheme and layout would help people recognize a pylons project immediately.

What do you wonderful humans think?

- sontek

[Bert JW Regeer]

Speaking of Slack, what’s the info and how could I join?

Bert

[Michael Merickel]

I'll go ahead and be that guy who says he doesn't like seeing his open
source community move away from irc. Sure slack may work with irc but
is there actually a problem with just using irc?? This is maybe the
2nd or 3rd pyramid discussion I'm seeing offloaded to slack and it
bothers me.

Back to the original discussion, why the sudden push for subdomains?
We could easily just re-org things under pylonsproject.org and make it
significantly easier to secure with https in the future.

[Michael Merickel]

Sorry I'll say more than "it bothers me". It's an invite-only system
that seems counter to the principals of contributing to an open source
project. Even with its irc support enabled.

[Blaise Laflamme]

Michael,

it's not moving away IRC but sometimes and for some collaboration work it's easier and more convenient to use a tool that gives you more?

We already have documents on Google to help somehow, IRC is kind of chaotic for organization, Slack provides the best of IRC with better integration tools IMHO.

[Joe Dallago]

The invite-only nature of slack is the biggest barrier I see.  Does slack provide a way to make a channel public?

[AM]

On 12/26/14 10:40 AM, Michael Merickel wrote:
> I'll go ahead and be that guy who says he doesn't like seeing his open
> source community move away from irc. Sure slack may work with irc but
> is there actually a problem with just using irc?? This is maybe the
> 2nd or 3rd pyramid discussion I'm seeing offloaded to slack and it
> bothers me.
>
> Back to the original discussion, why the sudden push for subdomains?
> We could easily just re-org things under pylonsproject.org and make it
> significantly easier to secure with https in the future.

I think having a pyramid based domain name would be better as I have
noticed that branding does seem to matter. I do agree about the
subdomains, I don't think they are strictly necessary for the first
iteration.

I would be willing to help out on pretty much anything that is needed to
make this work.

AM

PS: +1 for IRC, I realize slack has more 'integrations' but other than
file attachments I have not particularly found them to be useful.

PPS: regularly use hipchat, irc and xmpp :)

[Blaise Laflamme]

I think for major projects like pyramid and webob it makes sense to have their own subdomain. They'll also have their own identity and would make it easier to develop and deploy as separate projects. For most project only being listed and linked to their docs under docs.pylonsproject.org would be sufficient.

On Friday, December 26, 2014 1:40:53 PM UTC-5, Michael Merickel wrote:

Back to the original discussion, why the sudden push for subdomains?
We could easily just re-org things under pylonsproject.org and make it
significantly easier to secure with https in the future.

[Randall Leeds]

I'll echo this sentiment. If we want to discuss it further, we should start a separate thread for it, because I don't want to derail the conversation about project organization and branding.

I'm the sort, though, that would follow this conversation and chime in here on the mailing list but would probably not participate if it moved to Slack, unless I can do so via IRC without signing up.

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[pyramidX]

I like the idea behind http://trypyramid.com, which looks nice and has a Pylons Project logo at the bottom and clearly says "Pyramid is a project of the Pylons Project". I get a clear idea of the difference between Pyramid and Pylons.

The confusion between all the different 'brands' that seem to come up when Pyramid is mentioned was actually one of the reasons it took me this long to try Pyramid. Pyramid comes up once in a while on Reddit and people have really good things to say, and everytime I would read the comments or follow links I'd get confused between words like Pyramid, Plone, Pylons, Zope, Repoze that would pop up. Embarrassing as it is to admit, that's why I never gave myself a chance to try the framework that's now my favorite. Compare it to Flask's website where in a few seconds you know exactly what it is and what next steps to take. And it looks modern and gives the feeling that it's active and recent (first impressions and all), then there's a separate, clean documentation index page http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/0.10/.

Is trypramid.com source on Github? I personally would contribute in making it really clear and accessible for newcomers, since I'm one myself.

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[Steve Piercy]

Hi Everyone,

Here's a summary from IRC #pylons on Friday, December 26, in
regards to the reorganization of the Pylons Project (PP).

A partial log from when I joined the conversation in #pylons is
attached. Sorry, I don't have the start of the conversation available.

------------------------
Decisions
------------------------
* Use IRC—not an invite-only, closed, proprietary system—to
maintain the spirit of FOSS.

* Individual projects, primarily Pyramid, would be promoted,
while the PP organization would not be emphasized.

* Must have a generalized and consistent scheme for all of the
PP projects (either pyramid.pylonsproject.org or pylonsproject.org/pyramid)

* We will have one project/landing page for each project under PP.org.

* For Pyramid we can extract content from trypyramid/usepyramid
pages for its landing page.

* Any mention of "pylons project" on project websites is, AT
MOST, in the footer on all the project pages, like in http://trypyramid.com

* All project websites will look like they came from the same organization.

* Only documentation should use Sphinx in their build process.
All other sites should use something more flexible, and be easy
to edit and deploy.

------------------------
Further Discussion
------------------------
* Which IRC channel should we use going forward? #pylons? Other?

* How do we log the discussion? botbot.me? Anyone volunteer to
install a logging bot?

* Which pattern is better?
* project-name.pylonsproject.org
- overused
- harder to maintain
* pylonsproject.org/project-name
+ easier to set up HTTPS
* Concerns:
* Will RTD barf on one scheme?

* Does anything change for docs?

* What to do with notaliens?

Respectfully submitted,

--steve

p.s. -- The repo is here:
https://github.com/Pylons/trypyramid
However, I think waiting for direction as a result of the
reorganization discussion would be prudent.




On 12/27/14 at 3:06 AM, veeruk...@hotmail.com (pyramidX) pronounced:

>>><paulwe...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Blaise Laflamme

>>>pylons-discus...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to

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>