Forum on www.pyglet.org

[Paul]

i think that the manager of www.pyglet.org should set up a forum or a
sharing space where devs can share their work since there isn''t
really a place to do that.
i got this idea from www.pygame.org :P

thanks, and plz take this into consideration.

[Michael Red]

I support this idea, but there's a real chance it would not be very used, and that it would become prey to spam attacks. A forum filled with spam posts gives a worse image than no forum at all.

That said, it wouldn't require too much in manner of resources to maintain, and there are probably enough volunteers that can check for spam every so often. If this doesn't go through because of technical reasons, I'll consider hosting an off-site forum for pyglet on my own server, if there is demand for it.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pyglet-users" group.
To post to this group, send email to pyglet...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pyglet-users...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pyglet-users?hl=en.

[Paul]

That would all be so amazing. because some users of Pyglet may go to
pyglet.org and look for a forum to see examples and a community of
submitted games, personally a forum on pyglet.org would be amazing,
but really anything would be good :D
thanks

[George Oliver]

There's pyedpypers.org. It has a forum and project hosting. And then there's http://pyratesarecool.appspot.com/, a Python game dev wiki. 

Both are great resources, but both are little used. I don't know if this is a question of people not knowing about it or people not needing it.

[Peter Enerccio]

Well I certainly did not know any of them....

2011/8/15 George Oliver <georgeo...@gmail.com>

--

[Tristam MacDonald]

We discussed the idea of a forum a while back (probably buried deep in the list archives by now). The prevailing opinion at the time was that a forum didn't really offer any advantages over this mailing list, and the mailing list traffic was low enough that splitting it further might prove disastrous.

I am not suggesting it shouldn't be considered now or in the future, but it is worth keeping in mind that mailing list traffic is now even *lower* than at that point.

I think however, that having a portfolio of completed pyglet-based projects on the website is a very good idea. Might help drive interest in learning pyglet, and/or help motivate whoever is still actively developing piglet itself.

--

Tristam MacDonald

System Administrator, Suffolk University Math & CS Department

http://swiftcoder.wordpress.com/

[Michael Red]

Woah, but did anyone look at the fact that, compared to a forum, immensely few people will join a mailing list unless they're VERY interested in it?

I don't think we manage a post a day on average over a month for this mailing list, true. But by comparison, a forum would be much more...newbie-friendly, so to speak. I can't speak for any others, but I had to force myself to join the mailing list, because no forum was available. This is sufficient, sure.

Along the lines of suggestions, I think if we make a forum, it shouldn't be the grand central station every library tries to make theirs become. My opinion is that we should have a maximum of 3 sub-forums. One for announcements, one for developmental chatter (suggestions, ideas, preferably no issues since we have a bug tracker, and possibly dev chat for upcoming changes), one for posting projects made in pyglet.

From active members on here, we should have a few volunteers for administrators, which will handle announcements, and any other problem that might show up. This should allow us to appear more than the stagnant image we have right now. The main site hasn't been updated for over a year. Much over a year. Who is even hosting or maintaining it?

After giving it more thought, it seems to me like the whole site could use some updating, along with people to actually take this project places. Because I haven't seen any real progress at all in two years. And it's not as if there aren't things we can still do with it. Then again, it does mean a huge coordinated effort.

http://swiftcoder.wordpwordpressress.com/

[Mike Redhorse]

Realised I wasn't really clear enough. I don't mean that there wasn't
progress. Because the commits will show people are still working on
it. Just the fact that the website wasn't updated at all, there is no
central point of discourse, besides this mailing list, which tends to
turn people off initially, and the lack of ...activity, to be honest.

[Tristam MacDonald]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Michael Red <mike...@gmail.com> wrote:

Woah, but did anyone look at the fact that, compared to a forum, immensely few people will join a mailing list unless they're VERY interested in it? 

I don't think we manage a post a day on average over a month for this mailing list, true. But by comparison, a forum would be much more...newbie-friendly, so to speak. I can't speak for any others, but I had to force myself to join the mailing list, because no forum was available. This is sufficient, sure.

See, it may be a generational thing, or something else, but I personally find forums to be a pain in the neck, by comparison to a mailing list. This lands neatly in my gmail, and gets filtered into its own directory, complete with importance tagging. By contrast, I would have to manually navigate to a forum and check it each day - which is not going to happen, given my time commitments elsewhere.

It is the difference between a push-based event system, versus manual polling, if you will.

Along the lines of suggestions, I think if we make a forum, it shouldn't be the grand central station every library tries to make theirs become. My opinion is that we should have a maximum of 3 sub-forums. One for announcements, one for developmental chatter (suggestions, ideas, preferably no issues since we have a bug tracker, and possibly dev chat for upcoming changes), one for posting projects made in pyglet.

My feelings on your 3 sub-forums are respectively:

- Any news channel where the user has to manually check for updates is a bad way to do announcements: you want push notifications, not pull. RSS feeds from an announcements forum isn't a terrible way to accomplish this, but the mailing list already does push notifications very well.

- My experience is that the majority of programmers are very comfortable with mailing lists, they tend to have limited time, and communicate from a variety of devices (for example, my iPhone) where forums software is not easily accessible.

- A projects-with-pyglet forum is a good idea, but it doesn't go far enough. We need more visibility, like a gallery of (moderated) featured images directly on the front page - you don't want to make potential contributors have to mine down 3 levels of forum and trawl through the dross, just to find interesting projects that use pyglet. 

In case it isn't clear, I am not trying to be discouraging. If someone wants to set up and manage forums, by all means go for it! I just have reservations as to how useful it will be - and I certainly won't be using it myself.

--

Tristam MacDonald

System Administrator, Suffolk University Math & CS Department

http://swiftcoder.wordpress.com/

[Michael Red]

On 15 August 2011 22:36, Tristam MacDonald <swift...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Michael Red <mike...@gmail.com> wrote:

Woah, but did anyone look at the fact that, compared to a forum, immensely few people will join a mailing list unless they're VERY interested in it? 

I don't think we manage a post a day on average over a month for this mailing list, true. But by comparison, a forum would be much more...newbie-friendly, so to speak. I can't speak for any others, but I had to force myself to join the mailing list, because no forum was available. This is sufficient, sure.

See, it may be a generational thing, or something else, but I personally find forums to be a pain in the neck, by comparison to a mailing list. This lands neatly in my gmail, and gets filtered into its own directory, complete with importance tagging. By contrast, I would have to manually navigate to a forum and check it each day - which is not going to happen, given my time commitments elsewhere.

I'm actually quite sure it is a personal preference thing. I like mailing lists myself, but I don't like using them often, because of the commitment they create in my mind. I'm subscribed, so I automatically receive updates regardless of whether I'm interested or not. If I join a forum, I can not check it for months with few notifications, unless I watch some threads so any posts get forwarded to my mail account. And I can even have summaries sent to my mail account on a schedule, generally.

I understand time problems and personal preference, but for general users, I'm not sure they'll pull people towards mailing lists more than forums.

 

It is the difference between a push-based event system, versus manual polling, if you will.

Along the lines of suggestions, I think if we make a forum, it shouldn't be the grand central station every library tries to make theirs become. My opinion is that we should have a maximum of 3 sub-forums. One for announcements, one for developmental chatter (suggestions, ideas, preferably no issues since we have a bug tracker, and possibly dev chat for upcoming changes), one for posting projects made in pyglet.

My feelings on your 3 sub-forums are respectively:

- Any news channel where the user has to manually check for updates is a bad way to do announcements: you want push notifications, not pull. RSS feeds from an announcements forum isn't a terrible way to accomplish this, but the mailing list already does push notifications very well.

I probably wasn't clear. I meant announcements as in threads posted that explain basic things about the forums, etc. For example, the first few topics in my mind would be a thread pointing new users towards pyglet-users for more discussion, a thread explaining the bug tracker, a thread gathering all the resources appreciated by the community as best for new users, and a thread for frequently asked questions about the library.

The announcements in the sense of updates would be on the main site, RSS feed, here, wherever. But if you want a collection of recommended resources on the mailing list, most users will be at a loss as to how to obtain it. Searching 'resources', 'help', 'tutorial', and 'faq' gives me no information. There might be ways, but not ones obvious to new users. Asking is generally too much, because it entails registering and waiting for a reply. The forum would have the information instantly.

 

- My experience is that the majority of programmers are very comfortable with mailing lists, they tend to have limited time, and communicate from a variety of devices (for example, my iPhone) where forums software is not easily accessible.

 

Your iPhone would do just fine on any modern forum. Any proper forum software has a mobile mode that works great. And my experience is that the majority of senior programmers are very comfortable with mailing lists. However people new to programming tend to avoid them as much as possible. The forum neither precludes the possibility that users will want to join the mailing list afterwards, nor the possibility that some users will just use the mailing list instead. It's an alternative.

 

- A projects-with-pyglet forum is a good idea, but it doesn't go far enough. We need more visibility, like a gallery of (moderated) featured images directly on the front page - you don't want to make potential contributors have to mine down 3 levels of forum and trawl through the dross, just to find interesting projects that use pyglet. 

You're right. In this case, I also suggest have the administrators look through projects and suggest promising ones for main page posting, or take private messages with recommendations. Maybe even a forum thread for suggesting other people's projects, though that can quickly degrade into fighting over ratings and insults.

 

In case it isn't clear, I am not trying to be discouraging. If someone wants to set up and manage forums, by all means go for it! I just have reservations as to how useful it will be - and I certainly won't be using it myself.

--

Tristam MacDonald

System Administrator, Suffolk University Math & CS Department

http://swiftcoder.wordpress.com/

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pyglet-users" group.
To post to this group, send email to pyglet...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pyglet-users...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pyglet-users?hl=en

I should say, in case it's not apparent, I'm not trying to change your decision or opinion, I'm simply arguing pro-forum. I respect your decision, and understand your reasons for it.

[Zombie Mariachis]

I would certainly be interested in supporting and participating in a
new forum.

[Ricky Ng]

Going to come out of the wood works and give my support for a forum. From my perspective (current college student), it is much more intimidating to reply to a mailing list then to a forum. In my mind, mailing list are reserved for those who have grounded knowledge and information to share; a professional environment of sorts. A forum, on the other hand, has a much more open feeling. It is more of a place to share thoughts and not necessarily knowledge and because of this has a much lower barrier for entrance.

I am also the up for helping setup/host/admin a forum. 

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Zombie Mariachis <squirrel...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I would certainly be interested in supporting and participating in a
new forum.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pyglet-users" group.
To post to this group, send email to pyglet...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pyglet-users...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pyglet-users?hl=en.

--
Incoherently,
Ricky Ng

[Jonathan Hartley]

Hey.

Sorry to be grumpy, but I think that a forum for announcements and requests for help would only split the community, resulting in two lists each with less traffic and fewer readers than otherwise. We'd all have to sign up for both. Some people would fail to do so. So some posters would post to both. They would get shouted at, and we'd all have to filter posts out of our inbox twice. Just seems like an annoying lose-lose situation.

On the other hand, a curated collection of games is a good, complimentary idea, and I would shout 'hurray' if somebody set it up and maintained it.

  Jonathan

[Richard Jones]

On 16 August 2011 17:45, Jonathan Hartley <tar...@tartley.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, a curated collection of games is a good, complimentary
> idea, and I would shout 'hurray' if somebody set it up and maintained it.

pygame.org has a great collection of python-based game projects.

Richard

[Mike Redhorse]

Seeing the positive feedback, I've decided to go for it and have set
up a SMF2.0 forum on my server.

http://remike.homelinux.org/pyglet/

Please forward the link to anyone who might be interested. If anyone
wishes to help with maintaining the forum, message me privately on the
forum and I will consider adding you as a moderator. I hope we can
point enough new people towards it, rather than have it die empty.

Any suggestions/comments are welcome both here and on the forum
itself. I will be checking it daily for anything that needs attention.

[Paul]

thank you everyone for such great feedback. and thanks, Mike for
hosting that forum on your codeden haha (nice website btw).

i hope that anyone with access to www.pyglet.org would make a link to
the forum posted above.