Internet Party & Democracy

[mathmo]

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/03/geddis_on_internet_party_selections.html

It appears they're rather far apart.

[Danyl Strype]

Kia ora koutou

On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 4:36 PM, mathmo <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/03/geddis_on_internet_party_selections.html
>
> It appears they're rather far apart.

That blog post says of the Internet Party:
>> The Executive Committee (at its sole discretion) gets to both select who will be on the list and where they are placed on it. The membership gets to rank the Executive Committee’s initial choices, but with the Executive Committee then only required to “have regard” to the outcome of this process when making its final decision. <<

The only difference between the IP and the Pirates (under our current
rules) is that the all-powerful Executive is elected. Not really much
more democratic IMHO, and I think both parties can do better.

Ma te wā
S

--
Danyl Strype
Orientation Officer
Pirate Party NZ
021 11 77 578

"Duchamp's argument is that the spectator is part of the creative act
and therefore shares ownership - and authorship - of the artwork with
the artist."
- Will Gompertz, "Why Star Wars should be left to the fans"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14944240

"Uncomfortable alliances are not just necessary; they reflect and
speak to the tremendous possibility of our political moment."
- Harmony Goldberg and Joshua Kahn Russell
http://www.nationofchange.org/new-radical-alliances-new-era-1337004193

"Both Marxists and Chicago-school libertarian economists can agree
that free software is the best model."
- Keith C Curtis
http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?page_id=407

[Danyl Strype]

Kia ora anō

Oops! It appears that KiwiBlog chose not to quote a critical part of
the Andrew Geddis' blog post he block-quoted so heavily from:

>> There will be an inaugural Executive Committee consisting of the founders of the Internet Party. The inaugural members of Internet Party Assets Incorporated will be the inaugural members of the Executive Committee. In the Internet Party’s second year, there will be an Annual General Meeting for Members to elect an Executive Committee as per these rules. <<

So it turns out that the IP is actually more democratic than the
Pirates (under our current rules), because the Executive will be
elected at an AGM, rather than via an obscure email-based voting
procedure that seems to attract around 10 votes.

If and when the membership is able to run the Party via Loomio, or
whatever other online decision-making platform we agree to use, then
we might be more democratic than the IP (assuming they don't implement
such a system before we do).

Ma te wā
S

[Andrew McPherson]

I would suggest that it does not matter what they claim, because they are not democratic at the moment.

Besides which, they are rather right-wing with one particular policy standing out like dog's bollocks as grossly a business opportunity for Kim Dotcom.

I can think of no higher idiocy than the state sponsoring a digital currency.

It's the user's electricity and computer power that made it, yet by throwing the weight of the taxman behind Kim's next project, he hopes to own a share of the Reserve Bank.

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[Andrew Reitemeyer]

PPNZ's board is set up to be more like a politburo than the
administrative organ of a political party. The election of board members
is not transparent nor are the board meetings and resolutions; the last
published minutes where in October 2013 and any after that are in a
private Loomio group I assume. Any changes to the system must be
approved by the board rather than the membership. It would also seem
that the board can appoint new board members without an election
(https://www.loomio.org/d/chxMVgKB/vacant-board-posistions David's
comment under the proposal outcome) - Stalin would have been proud.

We cannot criticize any other party for being undemocratic until the
board transparently hands over ultimate power to the membership.


AndrewR

[your...@inbox.com]

Being able to pay ones taxes in a non-fiat currency is a huge step.
And it is a step forward for society and humanity.

In a "free market" [sic] soon nobody will use inflationary currencies.
Why would anyone use fiat money with available local and crypto options?

That's exactly what the establishment fears the most.
Hey Andrew, are you part of the establishment?

...

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[Andrew McPherson]

On 1 April 2014 07:25, <your...@inbox.com> wrote:

Being able to pay ones taxes in a non-fiat currency is a huge step.
And it is a step forward for society and humanity.

It's a step towards confiscation of your processed effort in energy and processor cycles.

I see it as nothing less than social control of your privately owned information. 

In a "free market" [sic] soon nobody will use inflationary currencies.
Why would anyone use fiat money with available local and crypto options?

I'm not suggesting that deflationary bitcoin is the most intelligent use of economics, 

unless you think David Peterson is too left-wing.

Normal economics should work fine as applied to a serious cryptocurrency,

which is why I am designing one that allows for interest, debt and inflation.

 

That's exactly what the establishment fears the most.
Hey Andrew, are you part of the establishment?

I'm not interested in Kim Dotcom becoming a part-owner of the Reserve Bank, 

which is where I can see this drive to sponsor a digital currency is going.

As discussed by the Wellington Pirates who have come from Germany,

we know that Kim Dotcom is always thinking about how to turn anything into 

a vast business opportunity for him, which we have seen by several examples.

I am interested in becoming a serious alternative to Kim Dotcom's mediocrity, 

I am not interested in becoming part of the establishment, 

nor do I have the time to waste on "Mega" stupidity of the Kim Dotcom kind.

However, I will say for clarity's sake that deflationary currencies 

only encourage saving of that currency, and then that economy starts to die.

We have seen this problem before in the 70s, and in Japan recently.

It is clear to me that the designers of bitcoin knew as little about economics 

as they do about cryptography, and that is why I do not care a single bit if 

someone loses their "investment" at "MtGoX" - Magic the Gathering online eXchange.

Clearly, if they understood basic undergraduate maths, then they would not even bother 

with bitcoin, and run away from "MtGoX" if ever offered that as an investment option.

[mathmo]

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:29:41 PM UTC+13, Andrew McPherson wrote:

On 1 April 2014 07:25, <your...@inbox.com> wrote:

Being able to pay ones taxes in a non-fiat currency is a huge step.
And it is a step forward for society and humanity.

It's a step towards confiscation of your processed effort in energy and processor cycles.

I see it as nothing less than social control of your privately owned information. 

In a "free market" [sic] soon nobody will use inflationary currencies.
Why would anyone use fiat money with available local and crypto options?

I'm not suggesting that deflationary bitcoin is the most intelligent use of economics, 

unless you think David Peterson is too left-wing.

I am rather too left wing :-P
 

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[mathmo]

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 7:15:11 AM UTC+13, Andrew Reitemeyer wrote:

We cannot criticize any other party for being undemocratic until the
board transparently hands over ultimate power to the membership.

Wasn't so much criticising it, as highlighting it.

Also it isn't a case of "handing over ultimate power", it is about having people willing to *do shit* like run elections (or heck, just simply stick through and see out their term! So countless elections are not unnecessarily needed). 

[Danyl Strype]

Kia ora koutou

On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 1:19 AM, Andrew McPherson
<andr...@pirateparty.org.nz> wrote:
>> I would suggest that it does not matter what they claim, because they are not democratic at the moment. <<

Geddis was quoting directly from the IP constitution. It's not a
"claim". It's what their own rules oblige them to do sometime next
year. I imagine that's because they want to have a large enough active
membership to prevent vote-stacking and sabotage before they hand over
full power to the membership.

Andrew McP, let me offer you a couple of suggestions:
1) If you have a point to make about the IP digital currency policy,
you need to explain it logically, and reference some evidence, not
just engage in tin-foil-hat speculation and personal attacks.

2) Pirates have nothing -NOTHING - to gain from attacking KDC or the
IP. We can respectfully and honestly criticize their ideas, policies,
and practices (ie ones they actually have, not hysterical strawmen),
but if we try to compete against them we will lose, because.
* They have more members in a few weeks of existence than we do after
a few years.
* They have more policies than we do, and more detail, and they
haven't even released their manifesto yet
* they are appearing in opinion polls within weeks of launching
* They have more media profile than us
* They were able to mobilize a visible presence at the anti-TPPA
protests (we don't even seem to agree that we're against it)

If we attack them, we just look like a bunch of envious losers who are
knocking other people's efforts instead of getting our own shit
together.

As for your comments on the digital currency, the IP website says:

"The Internet Party will support the introduction of a New
Zealand-sponsored digital currency that is safe, secure and encrypted,
providing for instant international transactions at minimal cost. By
becoming a digital currency leader, New Zealand can become a key hub
for a growing financial sector."

>> Besides which, they are rather right-wing with one particular policy standing out like dog's bollocks as grossly a business opportunity for Kim Dotcom. <<

Please explain how supporting a state-sponsored digital currency is
"right-wing" and how KDC would get an unfair business advantage from a
government-backed digital currency?

>> I can think of no higher idiocy than the state sponsoring a digital currency. <<

They currently sponsor the NZ dollar, a digital currency which is
backwards compatible with older paper or metal tokens. Why is that
idiocy? I'm not sure how the currency the IP is proposing would be
different from the $NZ, but I'm willing to suspend judgement until I
see the details.

>> It's the user's electricity and computer power that made it, yet by throwing the weight of the taxman behind Kim's next project, he hopes to own a share of the Reserve Bank. <<

Lemon + organutan = KDC is evil! I don't even understand what you're
saying. Please take a step back, and explain in more detail.

[Hubat McJuhes]

Hi there, whoever you might be,

you are right that the fiat system is an enougmous risk for the world
economy, more so for the smaller and tiny economies. We have to step out
of that system, ideally sooner rather than later.

The hype around the current versions of crypto currencies doesn't really
help. They do no good as a replacement system (they are doing fine as a
quick and cheap way to exchange trade-value internationally). but as
they are deflationary by design, they don't work as a sustainable
value-container. Andrew McP has pointed that out already.

I am pretty fascinated and excited about the Land Dollar as suggested by
the New Economics Party, though.
While I can see the catastrophic design of the fiat system, and also
some problems with the UBI concept, which completely works inside the
fiat system but at least solves some other serious problems and reduces
the imapct of the fiat-apocalopse - I cannot find any flaws in the Land
Dollar. That doesn't mean too much, as I am not an expert in that area,
but it still means something (I hope).

If there is anything not so super about the Land Dollar, then it is,
that it will kick in slowly. This is regarded as a feature and one of
it's big advantages over more revolutionary concepts. A view point that
I can accept. Particularly as the Land Dollar could easily a revolution
anyway. It's compatible.

Let's all think more about the Land Dollar, mates!

Cheers,
Daniel

[Danyl Strype]

Kia ora koutou

On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Hubat McJuhes <hu...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> The hype around the current versions of crypto currencies... are deflationary by design, they don't work as a sustainable value-container. Andrew McP has pointed that out already. <<

I think this is too valuable a discussion to lose in the mists of GGs,
and I have started a discussion on Currency in the Policy Group on
Loomio, and made my reply there:
https://www.loomio.org/d/JsYq0ZvM/currency