The Electoral College Is The Worst Of Both Worlds. It’s Time For It To Go

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Lobo

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Dec 30, 2016, 9:37:19 PM12/30/16
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It's both anti-democratic and the opposite of the deliberative body the Constitution's authors thought they were creating. As long as the results were the same as the popular vote it wasn't important, but the EC has increasingly become just a way for a minority of the people to overrule the expressed desire of the majority.

Our electoral system in general has become corrupted and in bad need of an overhaul. Because computers and modern data-collection have made it possible for congressmen to identify who will vote for which party down to streets, blocks and houses, they've been able to gerrymander districts in ways that make it virtually impossible not only for the majority to succeed, but has resulted in increasingly extreme candidates who no longer have to appeal to the center. Nowadays, representatives choose their voters, not the other way around as the founding fathers intended.

I know we argued this out a lot right after the election, but here EJ Dionne answers a number oif arguments put forth by conservatives here, and more recently in a column by George Will.


The electoral college is the worst of both worlds. It’s time for it to go.


Dwayne Block of Oconomowoc, Wis., outside the Wisconsin State Capitol in Madison before the state’s 10 electoral college members voted there on Dec. 19. (Michael P. King/Associated Press)
By E.J. Dionne Jr. Opinion writer December 25 

It’s important for those who favor the popular election of our presidents to separate their arguments for direct democracy from the outcome of a particular contest.

My colleague George F. Will’s recent column in defense of the electoral college offers an excellent opportunity to make a case that has nothing to do with the election of Donald Trump.

After all, Will, admirably and eloquently, insisted that Trump was unworthy of nomination or election. So our disagreement relates entirely to his insistence that we should stick with an approach to choosing presidents that, twice in the past 16 years, overrode the wishes of Americans, as measured by the popular vote.

Will brushes aside these outcomes. “Two is 40 percent of five elections, which scandalizes only those who make a fetish of simpleminded majoritarianism.”

But when is a belief in majoritarian democracy a “fetish” or “simpleminded,” and when is it just a belief in democracy? The current system makes a fetish of majoritarianism (or, to coin an awkward but more accurate word, pluralitarianism) at the state level, but it’s held meaningless nationally. Who is fetishizing what?

Part of the answer, of course, is that majoritarianism or pluralitarianism are not fetishes at all. They are how we run just about every other election in our country. If the people get to choose the state treasurer or the county recorder of deeds by popular vote, why should they be deprived of a direct say in who will occupy the country’s most important office?

According to Will, electoral college majorities are very special because they promote a particularly virtuous way of attaining power. “They are built,” he writes, “by a two-party system that assembles them in accordance with the electoral college’s distribution incentive for geographical breadth in a coalition of states.”

But “geographical breadth” is a relative term. The existing rules encourage candidates to campaign in 10 or 12 swing states and skip the rest. Where’s the breadth? The winner is picked not by the laws of elections but by the serendipity of the casino. If you’re lucky to hit the right numbers, narrowly, in a few states, you can override your opponent’s big margins in other states.

True, Will notes happily, the electoral college gave the presidency to Abraham Lincoln although Lincoln won just 39.9 percent of the popular vote. But there was no “geographical breadth” to Lincoln’s victory. He carried not a single state south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Will and I can both retrospectively cheer Lincoln’s election, but an outcome we happen to like doesn’t vindicate the process.

And at least Lincoln won a plurality of the total vote, beating the No. 2 finisher, Stephen A. Douglas, by 10 percentage points. Will notes that 1860 was among the 18 of 48 elections since 1824 that produced presidents who won less than 50 percent of the popular vote. Yet in all but five of those, the winner got the most votes. Nonetheless, to be consistent with my leanings toward majoritarianism, I’d favor a popular vote with an instant runoff in which voters could rank their choices. The transfer of second-preference ballots would eventually produce a majority winner.

The way we do things now, Will says, “quarantines electoral disputes” by confining them to one or, at most, a few states. I suppose, but not many of us felt “quarantined” in 2000 from the impact of Florida’s electoral mayhem.

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A favorite metaphorical defense of the electoral college is that the winner of the World Series is determined by games won, not runs scored. But in the electoral college, some games (and votes) count more than others. California gets one elector for every 713,637 people, Wyoming one for every 195,167.

How the electoral college works

 
Play Video3:09
With criticism flying about the electoral college, here's what you need to know about our system for electing the president and why the "Hamilton electors" don't like it. (Jenny Starrs/The Washington Post)

And consider a different metaphor. I doubt that Will, a fine writer about baseball, would want the national pastime to mimic tennis. Imagine basing the winner of a game not on the number of runs scored but the number of innings won, and with some innings counting more than others.

But the question of how a democratic republic should work is not a game. Will says that the electoral college has “evolved” since the 18th century. Well, yes, we now have the worst of both worlds: The electoral college is no longer the deliberative body envisioned by the founders, but it still thwarts the wishes of the majority. Will does not explain why only “political hypochondriacs” think that the winner of the most votes should prevail. In the absence of one, we should complete our evolution toward democracy and elect our presidents directly.


herman

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Dec 30, 2016, 10:06:26 PM12/30/16
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But “geographical breadth” is a relative term. The existing rules encourage candidates to campaign in 10 or 12 swing states and skip the rest. Where’s the breadth? The winner is picked not by the laws of elections but by the serendipity of the casino. If you’re lucky to hit the right numbers, narrowly, in a few states, you can override your opponent’s big margins in other states.

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Certainly doesn't sound fair or democratic or even very representative.

The Constitution has been amended many times, as societies and cultural norms change.  It's time now to amend it because the geographical and demographical changes make it necessary in order to keep the Presidential electoral process not only relevant, but also representative of who we are - and where we live.

Lobo

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Dec 30, 2016, 10:34:00 PM12/30/16
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There was a little attention paid to Georgia for a few weeks when it seemed like we might be in play, but that didn't last. Our elections are decided by popular votes in a handful of states.

And outside of those states, the Electors are grotesquely skewed towards a small minority of white conservatives in small rural states like Wyoming, where one's vote counts nearly four times as much as a voter in California.

The whole point of the EC was to keep ignorant demagogues and people beholden to foreign interests out of the White House with a deliberative body. Today's Electoral College system is both anti-democratic AND the opposite of what the founders intended.

btdt100

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:12:37 PM12/30/16
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From your stupid article full of bullshit Lobo:  

Part of the answer, of course, is that majoritarianism or pluralitarianism are not fetishes at all. They are how we run just about every other election in our country. If the people get to choose the state treasurer or the county recorder of deeds by popular vote, why should they be deprived of a direct say in who will occupy the country’s most important office?

What other political position is elected by a majority national vote?   Can anyone name just one?  

There are none. ALL elections in this country are conducted by majority vote BY STATE - same with the selection of a president.  


btdt100

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:15:34 PM12/30/16
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Your argument is equally applicable to the Congress, especially the Senate. So are you going to advocate changing that one also so that every Senator and Representative is elected by national popular vote?  

herman

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:16:21 PM12/30/16
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What part of

"They are how we run just about every other election in our country.":

do you not understand, btdt?

btw, it's not enough for you to enroll in more "Comprehending Written English" classes, you have to GO to them.

Perhaps I haven't been clear about that part....

I-think4me

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:43:32 PM12/30/16
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Part of the answer, of course, is that majoritarianism or pluralitarianism are not fetishes at all. They are how we run just about every other election in our country. If the people get to choose the state treasurer or the county recorder of deeds by popular vote, why should they be deprived of a direct say in who will occupy the country’s most important office?

What other political position is elected by a majority national vote? Can anyone name just one?

There are none. ALL elections in this country are conducted by majority vote BY STATE - same with the selection of a president.

________
Damn your reading comprehension really sucks. Nowhere did the article claim that any national election was decided by popular vote.

All elections are not conducted by state. Most elections are decided by popular vote at the local level, council members,school boards, police chiefs,mayors etc.

Lobo

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:47:23 PM12/30/16
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<<Your argument is equally applicable to the Congress, especially the Senate. So are you going to advocate changing that one also so that every Senator and Representative is elected by national popular vote? >>

Why would they be? Those are state and district offices. The presidency is a national office.

You're aware that every election in the country but the presidency, including elections for senators and representatives, is by popular vote? And that the 50 separate state elections for electors for president are by popular vote? So what's your problem with the concept?

Lobo

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Dec 30, 2016, 11:54:20 PM12/30/16
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<<There are none. ALL elections in this country are conducted by majority vote BY STATE - same with the selection of a president. >>

The difference being that president is a NATIONAL office, NOT a state office.

BTW: The authors of the Constitution intended that the Electoral College be a deliberative body, not bound by any state vote for president, since there were none. When that idea fell apart the first election after Washington, Alexander Hamilton -- who had first proposed the EC and defended it in The Federalist #68 -- introduced an amendment to abolish it and go to a straight national popular vote. Unfortunately, slave states would have none of it, and the amendment died.


On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 11:12:37 PM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:31:21 AM12/31/16
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Obviously you are the one who does not understand what was written. He claimed we pick all candidates by a national popular vote and thus should also be doing the same when picking a president.  

So please tell us what politician is ever elected by a national popular vote?  Just one would do.  

I-think4me

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:39:34 AM12/31/16
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Obviously you are the one who does not understand what was written. He claimed we pick all candidates by a national popular vote and thus should also be doing the same when picking a president.
__________
No he does not.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:39:56 AM12/31/16
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No, the author didn't say that, btdt.

(btw, you're outvoted here, 3 to 1.  Moreover, you've amply demonstrated on other threads that you have trouble comprehending written English.  Lobo, I-think4me, and I don't have that problem.)

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:41:16 AM12/31/16
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Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses.  The same system is used to pick the number of representatives as is used to pick the Electoral College. If the EC is incorrect in representation, so is the House of Reps.  The Senate is made of two senators per state. If there should be proportional representation, then the Senate must also be dissolved and changed.  

You guys obviously do not like the Constitution of the US.  and want to redesign our system as you think would suit your candidates.  Thing is, the Constitution is a contractual agreement.  What matters is what the parties agreed to in that constitution, not what the authors who did the writing intended or argued or thought.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:42:59 AM12/31/16
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And for the record Lobo, the Federalist Papers were written so to convince the state of New York to sign the Constitution. They were not written to over rule the Constitution.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:46:07 AM12/31/16
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He said we pick all positions by popular vote and should be doing the same for president.  

Wait.  Popular is what we do when picking our electoral college reps and the rules by which they must vote.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:47:08 AM12/31/16
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You, Lobo, and think are self deluded Herman. By choice.  

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:47:23 AM12/31/16
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<<< Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses. >>>

Congresspersons and, especially, Senators, are supposed to think about what is good for the nation, but they represent the interests and the peoples of their respective states.

For the purposes of this conversation about the article, here are the salient points:  

Representatives and Senators are elected not by national elections but by elections held within their respective states, btdt.

The Presidency is the only office that is elected by means of a national election.

In other words, elections in this country, including those for Congress, are all decided by majority or plurality vote - save for one, the election every four years for the President.

And that explains the meaning of these two sentences, which have given you so much trouble:

"Part of the answer, of course, is that majoritarianism or pluralitarianism are not fetishes at all. They are how we run just about every other election in our country."

How do you not know this?

I would expect a Russian propagandist on an American politics chat group - in a Presidential election year, no less! - to have been taught how the US system works.  Or, if your handlers failed you in this respect, you surely should have educated yourself.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:48:29 AM12/31/16
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<<They were not written to over rule the Constitution.  >>

?

Where did I say THAT?

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 1:13:00 AM12/31/16
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<<Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses.>>

No, they're elected to represent their districts (representatives) and states (senators). The president is elected to lead the entire nation.

<<The same system is used to pick the number of representatives as is used to pick the Electoral College. If the EC is incorrect in representation, so is the House of Reps.>>

It is "incorrect" in the sense that it's unfair. Because every state, no matter how small, gets two senators and at least one congressman, California only gets one elector for every 713,637 people, while Wyoming gets one elector for every 195,167. If they were represented fairly by population, then by ratio California would get around 200 electors and a lot more than 55 representatives. (Small states already get their sop in the Constitutional Convention compromise that gave every state two senators, regardless of size).

<<You guys obviously do not like the Constitution of the US.>>

Then the authors of the Constitution must have hated it too, since they amended it themselves a number of times. Including the method for selecting a president. (See the 12th Amendment, ratified in 1803). And as I said, Alexander Hamilton, who authored the Electoral College, later offered an amendment to abolish it when it turned out not to work the way he and the others originally envisaged it.

<<and want to redesign our system as you think would suit your candidates.>>

Well, it is true that making it FAIR would better suit our candidates. But that's the way democracy works.

<<What matters is what the parties agreed to in that constitution, not what the authors who did the writing intended or argued or thought. >>

Original intent means nothing? And the Constitution can never be amended?



On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 12:41:16 AM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 1:25:25 AM12/31/16
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<<What matters is what the parties agreed to in that constitution, not what the authors who did the writing intended or argued or thought. >>

Original intent means nothing? And the Constitution can never be amended?

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So much for btdt's quoting or using the federalist as a source.



On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 1:13:00 AM UTC-5, Lobo wrote:
<<Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses.>>

No, they're elected to represent their districts (representatives) and states (senators). The president is elected to lead the entire nation.

<<The same system is used to pick the number of representatives as is used to pick the Electoral College. If the EC is incorrect in representation, so is the House of Reps.>>

It is "incorrect" in the sense that it's unfair. Because every state, no matter how small, gets two senators and at least one congressman, California only gets one elector for every 713,637 people, while Wyoming gets one elector for every 195,167. If they were represented fairly by population, then by ratio California would get around 200 electors and a lot more representatives. (Small states already get their sop in the Constitutional Convention compromise that gave every state two senators, regardless of size).

<<You guys obviously do not like the Constitution of the US.>>

Then the authors of the Constitution must have hated it too, since they amended it themselves a number of times. Including in the method for selecting a president. (See the 12th Amendment, ratified in 1803). And as I said, Alexander Hamilton, who authored the Electoral College, later offered an amendment to abolish it when it turned out not to work the way he and the others originally envisaged it.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 1:28:22 AM12/31/16
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<<Wait.  Popular is what we do when picking our electoral college reps and the rules by which they must vote. >>

There is no nationwide rule for how they must vote. In most states they're free to vote according to their own consciences, which was the whole idea behind the Electoral College. Over the years it has been bastardized, so that today it is neither democratic nor anything close to what its authors intended. There is no reason for keeping it beyond the fact that it serves the interests of a conservative Republican minority.

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 1:42:51 AM12/31/16
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Stupidity your problem, not mine Herman.  Yes the president is the only person chosen in a national election.  So he cannot be exactly like all the others, can he?  Once again,  the author attempted to claim he should be chosen as the state candidates are by popular vote.  Except he is chosen by popular vote within each state exactly as all the others are.   The difference is that each state is given a number of electoral votes based on its population to then hold a final national election for majority vote.  

The problem moron is that you attempt to equate the electoral college distribution to the proportional distribution of voter turnout.  You are attempting to equate apples to oranges and when they do not equal, you are then screaming the system is fucked up and not representational of the people.  You are completely wrong, out in left field.  Total population does not equate to voter turnout and it is beyond stupid to persist arguing that they should or to persist arguing that restricting the selection of a president to those who turn out to vote is more representational.  




On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 11:47:23 PM UTC-6, herman wrote:
<<< Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses. >>>

Yes, Congresspersons and, especially, Senators, are supposed to think about what is good for the nation, but they also represent the interests and the peoples of their respective states.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 1:51:50 AM12/31/16
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The difference is that each state is given a number of electoral votes based on its population to then hold a final national election for majority vote.

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Do you not read Lobo's posts?

Look up.  He typed this a mere half hour ago:

<<< California only gets one elector for every 713,637 people, while Wyoming gets one elector for every 195,167. If they were represented fairly by population, then by ratio California would get around 200 electors and a lot more representatives. (Small states already get their sop in the Constitutional Convention compromise that gave every state two senators, regardless of size). >>>

Lobo has typed this over and over, in thread after thread, probably most often for YOUR education - yet, here you are, ignoring this fact and spouting the lie that the number of electoral votes/electors each state is allocated is based on its population.

Please tell putin we deserve a more intelligent and less intransigent propagandist.  You're a waste of rubles.

btw, I haven't mentioned "proportional distribution of voter turnout" or any other kind of "voter turnout".   Stop lying about what I've said.

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 2:22:39 AM12/31/16
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On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 12:13:00 AM UTC-6, Lobo wrote:
<<Yes the president is a national office but so are all congressional seats of both houses.>>

No, they're elected to represent their districts (representatives) and states (senators). The president is elected to lead the entire nation.

The president is elected to run the federal government - EXECUTIVE Branch - as in execute the laws passed by the legislature.  You libbies have the concept that the president is an emperor King. He is not suppose to be. The federal government was suppose to provide services FOR the states, not vice versa. Not run the states or be their ultimate authority.   Your warped perceptions of the presidency are your main fallacy.  

<<The same system is used to pick the number of representatives as is used to pick the Electoral College. If the EC is incorrect in representation, so is the House of Reps.>>

It is "incorrect" in the sense that it's unfair. Because every state, no matter how small, gets two senators and at least one congressman, California only gets one elector for every 713,637 people, while Wyoming gets one elector for every 195,167. If they were represented fairly by population, then by ratio California would get around 200 electors and a lot more representatives. (Small states already get their sop in the Constitutional Convention compromise that gave every state two senators, regardless of size).

But we are not a one country Lobo. We are a republic - a confederation of 50 states.   So you want to wipe away the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch as established by the Constitution and establish porportional representation and majority rule.  Why not just chunk the constitution and rewrite it so that libbies can rule supreme over everybody?  But wait. When you chunk it, the confederation dissolves and each and every state can go their own way.  California and New York can become the United States and have libbie politicians for eternity. The rest of us could have our own countries and be free of you.  

 

<<You guys obviously do not like the Constitution of the US.>>

Then the authors of the Constitution must have hated it too, since they amended it themselves a number of times. Including the method for selecting a president. (See the 12th Amendment, ratified in 1803). And as I said, Alexander Hamilton, who authored the Electoral College, later offered an amendment to abolish it when it turned out not to work the way he and the others originally envisaged it.

Hamilton is assumed to have authored the Federalist Paper #68, NOT the electoral clause in the Constitution. THAT was established by virtue of compromise between the states - NOT TO BE WHAT THE AUTHORS WANTED BUT WHAT THE STATES WOULD AGREE TO.   Want to get rid of it?  Then your smaller states have right to get rid of you.  
 

<<and want to redesign our system as you think would suit your candidates.>>

Well, it is true that making it FAIR would better suit our candidates. But that's the way democracy works.

We are not a democracy Lobo and the main reason we are not is that democracies are LESS FAIR than the republic we have. Democracies become tyrannical rule of majorities to the exclusion of minorities.  Why would a minority join up with a majority when it means surrendering ALL of their rights to affect a vote on anything?  


 

<<What matters is what the parties agreed to in that constitution, not what the authors who did the writing intended or argued or thought. >>

Original intent means nothing? And the Constitution can never be amended?

You are twisting original intent so to make it what you now want.   You are doing so by taking Hamilton's personal opinions and trying to claim that his represent the original intent.  They do not.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 2:24:50 AM12/31/16
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You are going to amend the Constitution so that libbies will win all the elections Herman?  I don't think so.  

An amendment requires ratification of 2/3 of the states - not a majority of the population in New York and California.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 2:33:11 AM12/31/16
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There is no nationwide rule for how they must vote because the rules fall under STATE'S RIGHTS.  Each state sets its own rules for its EC.  No the majority of states do not let their EC vote however they want.  29 states require the EC vote for the candidate that won the popular vote in their state. 2 states require their electors to vote proportionally in accordance with the popular vote.  I think all states allow the political parties to pick their EC reps.  

OMG. The EC serves the interests of a minority?  Heaven forbid.  Lets go back to original intent of our forefathers and why they intentionally did NOT establish a pure democracy.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 2:37:56 AM12/31/16
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The EC computation actually has an additional computation factor but the details are not that important. It is basically distributed by population, same as the House.  

You whine that Shilliary won the popular vote Herman and you whine you guys were screwed by the EC.  

But then, you whined the votes were rigged until that proved otherwised. So you started whining that Putin stole the election and gave the presidency to Trump.  

Seems like you guys could pick one and stick with it.  You really look stupid arguing both.  

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 2:52:13 AM12/31/16
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<<< But then, you whined the votes were rigged until that proved otherwised. >>>

???

Well, you're back to lying, I see.

Your boy trump was the one whining about a "rigged" election.

Democrats didn't do that.

Again, you're wasting putin's rubles.

mitchscove

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Dec 31, 2016, 5:39:51 AM12/31/16
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Great.  Here are some people who might want to take up your cause.  They can roll the irrelevance to Presidential campaigns into their own 2018 campaigns for their Senate seats:

Joe Manchin (D-WV)
Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI)
Martin Heinrich (D-NM)
Jon Tester (D-MT)
Tom Cooper (D-DE)
Angus King (I-ME)

No doubt, you can get the 12 most populous states.  Just need 22 more for an amendment.  Start with the above 6 advocates for election irrelevance and you'll be off to the races.

You might even throw in Claire McCaskill, Amy Klobuchar, Tammy Baldwin but MO, MN and WI have less to gain in the irrelevance sense.  Hillary forgot to campaign in WI anyway.
=============

Loco said:
The Electoral College Is The Worst Of Both Worlds. It’s Time For It To Go

Navy

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Dec 31, 2016, 8:26:22 AM12/31/16
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Nope. It's staying. We don't change the constitution because you all are pissed you lost.


On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 7:37:19 PM UTC-7, Lobo wrote:


btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:21:29 AM12/31/16
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trump is the one who demanded recounts?  The true liar exposed to be Herman.  

jgg1000

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:33:50 AM12/31/16
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Just take the question of 'Should a felon vote?".....  Currently decided by individual states...   Should a felon in a state which is not allowed to vote be allowed to vote???   Who controls, the Federal Government or the states???

Ragnar

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:35:00 AM12/31/16
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Eradication of the EC may also boost the participation rate.....fascists of course want nothing to do with that. 


On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 10:16:21 PM UTC-6, herman wrote:
What part of

"They are how we run just about every other election in our country.":

do you not understand, btdt?

btw, it's not enough for you to enroll in more "Comprehending Written English" classes, you have to GO to them.

Perhaps I haven't been clear about that part....

mitchscove

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:39:31 AM12/31/16
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Eliminating the EC would tell people in over 40 states that they may as well stay home because this is a country of illegal aliens and welfare losers

Ragnar

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:43:45 AM12/31/16
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Speaking of losers.......

Rebel

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:46:15 AM12/31/16
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DDT comprehension skill are amazing, lack of that is. The chumpsters are really a dumb lot, without the E.C they would still be scratching under thier armpits looking for those little fleas that keep them awake.

Navy

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:21:57 PM12/31/16
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Nah..he was speaking 'to' a loser. You.

Ragnar

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:24:55 PM12/31/16
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Nazi hag, don't you have some orange smegma to lap up? 

Navy

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Dec 31, 2016, 12:36:54 PM12/31/16
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What color is Soro's smegma..? Black like your heart?...you got a dribble on your chin.

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 3:05:23 PM12/31/16
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After over 225 years of the electoral college electing presidents, look who is scratching under their armpits and expressing they surprise at how the president is picked in this country.  Libbies are so stupidly absurd.  

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 3:06:53 PM12/31/16
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So what state did not allow you to participate in a popular vote of its choice fore president raggie?  

Ragnar

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Dec 31, 2016, 3:39:53 PM12/31/16
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Fascist cunts never "get it" 

Republicans were wildly successful at suppressing voters in 2016

Three GOP-controlled states demonstrate the effectiveness of disenfranchising the opposition.


Last week, the first election in 50 years without the full protection of the federal Voting Rights Act propelled Donald Trump to the White House.

Trump will assume the presidency because of the Electoral College’s influence — nearly a million more people cast ballots for Hillary Clinton as of November 15. The election was also marked by low turnout, with tens of millions of eligible voters choosing not to participate at all. Yet there has been relatively little discussion about the millions of people who were eligible to vote but could not do so because they faced an array of newly-enacted barriers to the ballot box.

Their systematic disenfranchisement was intentional and politically motivated. In the years leading up to 2016, Republican governors and state legislatures implemented new laws restricting when, where, and how people could vote — laws that disproportionately harmed studentsthe poor, and people of color. In several instances, lawmakers pushing such policies said explicitly that their goal was suppression of voters who favor the Democratic Party.

Three such states serve as case studies for the effectiveness of these voting restrictions: Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Florida.

All three elected staunchly conservative governors during President Obama’s terms. All three implemented voting restrictions that affect millions of people. President Obama won all three states in 2008, and won all but North Carolina in 2012, while Hillary Clinton lost all three of those states this year.

Republican Gov. Scott Walker signed Wisconsin’s strict voter ID law in 2011, and it has been tied up in court battles for years. A federal court held that the law unconstitutionally burdens low-income people of color, but ultimately the Supreme Court allowed it to go into effect for the 2016 election.

In one of the many trials concerning the law, former government officials testified that behind closed doors, Republicans pushing for the voter ID were “politically frothing at the mouth” over the prospect that it would make it more difficult for people to cast ballots for Democrats.

Donald Trump won the state by fewer than 30,000 votes. According to the state’s own records, ten times that many eligible voters in the state — as many as 300,000 people — lacked the proper ID and may have been disenfranchised.


In 2013, North Carolina — led by the GOP — approved a law that eliminated same-day voter registration, cut a full week of early voting, barred voters from casting a ballot outside their home precincts, scrapped straight-ticket voting, and got rid of a program to pre-register high school students who would turn 18 by Election Day. That law also included one of the nation’s strictest voter ID requirements.


Florida is one of just three states that permanently disenfranchise anyone with a felony conviction. The state has no automatic process for former felons to regain their voting rights. Instead, people have to travel to the state capital and proactively request that the governor grant them clemency on an individual basis.

That process has become even more difficult since Republican Gov. Rick Scott was elected in 2011. During governor Charlie Crist’s four years in office, more than 150,000 people had their rights restored...

https://thinkprogress.org/2016-a-case-study-in-voter-suppression-258b5f90ddcd#.iasjk6669

mitchscove

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Dec 31, 2016, 4:06:18 PM12/31/16
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Yeah, we know.  Democrats get 100% of the felon vote.  It's the part of their base they are most proud of.  They lost by blowing off working class people ,,, they have to make it up by getting murderers and rapists to the polls.

Ragnar

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Dec 31, 2016, 5:36:59 PM12/31/16
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" getting murderers and rapists to the polls."...that would be the Orange Rat Fucker himself and the immoral hypocrite Nazis that voted for him...

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 6:58:34 PM12/31/16
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<<After over 225 years of the electoral college electing presidents, look who is scratching under their armpits and expressing they surprise at how the president is picked in this country>>

As long as the electoral results agreed with the popular vote -- as it has in every election but two before 2000 (1824 and 1888, and that 1824 election happened under circumstances that were nothing like modern elections) -- there was no reason to give a shit. But now we've had the two votes diverge twice in a mere 16 years; this time by 3 MILLION popular votes. We're moving away from democracy and towards minority rule.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:12:41 PM12/31/16
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<<Nope. It's staying. We don't change the constitution because you all are pissed you lost. >>

I agree we're not likely to see a Constitutional amendment as long as the current system allows your party to seize power over the democratically expressed wishes of the American people, but that doesn't make it right. Surely you're not arguing that it does...?

Anyway, there is a solution that doesn't require an amendment.


National Popular Vote Interstate Compact

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
National Popular Vote Interstate Compact
NPVIC cartogram base.svg
MD green.svg
NJ green.svg
IL green.svg
HI green.svg
WA green.svg
MA green.svg
DC green.svg
VT green.svg
CA green.svg
RI green.svg
NY green.svg
MI yellow.svg
VA yellow.svg
NPVIC top.svg
  • Status as of December 2016:
  •   Enacted into law (165 electoral votes; 30.7% of EC)
  •   Pending in current legislative session (29 EVs; 5.4%)
  •   Not enacted and no bill pending (344 EVs; 63.9%)[1]

Each square in the lower cartogram
represents one electoral vote.


DraftedFebruary 2006
EffectiveNot in effect
ConditionAdoption by several of the states and including the District of Columbia whose collective electoral vote total represents an absolute majority of votes (at least 270) in the Electoral College. Note: The agreement would be in effect only among the assenting constituent political entities.
Signatories
 Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote at Wikisource

The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) is an agreement among a group of U.S. states and the District of Columbia to award all their respective electoral votes to whichever presidential candidate wins the overall popular vote in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. The compact is designed to ensure that the candidate who wins the most popular votes is elected president, and it will come into effect only when it will guarantee that outcome.[2][3] As of 2016, it has been adopted by ten states and the District of Columbia. Together, they have 165 electoral votes, which is 30.7% of the total Electoral College and 61.1% of the votes needed to give the compact legal force.

Contents

  [show

Mechanism[edit]

Proposed in the form of an interstate compact, the agreement would go into effect among the participating states in the compact only after they collectively represent an absolute majority of votes (currently at least 270) in the Electoral College. In the next presidential election after adoption by the requisite number of states, the participating states would award all of their electoral votes to presidential electors associated with the candidate who wins the overall popular vote in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. As a result, the winner of the national popular vote would always win the presidency by always securing a majority of votes in the Electoral College. Until the compact's conditions are met, all states award electoral votes in their current manner.

The compact would modify the way participating states implement Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution, which requires each state legislature to define a method to appoint its electors to vote in the Electoral College. The Constitution does not mandate any particular legislative scheme for selecting electors, and instead vests state legislatures with the exclusive power to choose how to allocate its own electors.[3][4] States have chosen various methods of allocation over the years, with regular changes in the nation's early decades. Today, all but two states (Maine and Nebraska) award all their electoral votes to the candidate with the most votes statewide.

Motivation behind the compact[edit]

Because of current state laws, presidential candidates have lost the popular vote nationally but still won the presidency.[5] Public opinion surveys suggest that a majority of Americans support the idea of a popular vote for President. A 2007 poll found that 72% favored replacing the Electoral College with a direct election, including 78% of Democrats, 60% of Republicans, and 73% of independent voters.[6] Gallup polls dating back to 1944 have shown a consistent majority of the public supporting a direct vote; however, support decreased significantly in their 2016 poll, conducted a few weeks after the 2016 election, when they found support for the popular vote at 49%, an all-time low, with 47% wanting to keep the Electoral College.[7][8] Reasons behind the compact include:

  • The Electoral College allows a candidate to win the Presidency while losing the popular vote, as happened in the elections of 1824187618882000, and 2016. In the 2000 election, the outcome was decided by a margin of 537 votes in Florida, despite a 543,895 difference in popular vote nationally.
  • The Electoral College system effectively forces candidates to focus disproportionately on a small percentage of pivotal swing states, while sidelining the rest. A study by FairVote reported that the 2004 candidates devoted three quarters of their peak season campaign resources to just five states, while the other 45 states received very little attention. The report also stated that 18 states received no candidate visits and no TV advertising.[9] This means that swing state issues receive more attention, while issues important to other states are largely ignored.[10][11][12]
  • The Electoral College system tends to decrease voter turnout in states without close races. Voters living outside the swing states have a greater certainty of which candidate is likely to win their state. This knowledge of the probable outcome decreases their incentive to vote.[10][12] A report by the Committee for the Study of the American Electorate found that 2004 voter turnout in competitive swing states grew by 6.3% from the previous presidential election, compared to an increase of only 3.8% in noncompetitive states.[13] A report by The Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement (CIRCLE) found that turnout among eligible voters under age 30 was 64.4% in the 10 closest battleground states and only 47.6% in the rest of the country—a 17% gap.[14]

Debate[edit]

The project has been supported by editorials in newspapers, including The New York Times,[10] the Chicago Sun-Times, the Los Angeles Times,[15] The Boston Globe,[16] and the Minneapolis Star Tribune,[17] arguing that the existing system discourages voter turnout and leaves emphasis on only a few states and a few issues, while a popular election would equalize voting power. Others have argued against it, including the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.[18] An article by Pierre S. du Pont, IV, a former governor of Delaware, in the opinion section of The Wall Street Journal[19] has called the project an urban power grab that would shift politics entirely to urban issues in high population states and allow lower caliber candidates to run. A collection of readings pro and con has been assembled by the League of Women Voters.[20]

Some of the major points of debate are detailed below:

Campaign focus[edit]

Advertising spending and campaign visits by both major-party candidates during the final stretch of the 2004 presidential campaign (Sept. 26 – Nov. 2, 2004)[21]
Spending on advertising per capita:
  •   < $0.50
  •   $0.50 – 1.00
  •   $1.00 – 2.00
  •   $2.00 – 4.00
  •   > $4.00

Campaign visits per 1 million residents:
  •   No visits
  •   0 – 1.0
  •   1.0 – 3.0
  •   3.0 – 9.0
  •   > 9.0
Spending-and-visits.svg

Under the current system, campaign focus – in terms of spending, visits, and attention paid to regional or state issues – is largely limited to the few swing states whose electoral outcomes are competitive, with politically "solid" states mostly ignored by the campaigns. The maps to the right illustrate the amount spent on advertising and the number of visits to each state, relative to population, by the two major-party candidates in the last stretch of the 2004 presidential campaign. Supporters of the compact contend that a national popular vote would encourage candidates to campaign with equal effort for votes in competitive and non-competitive states alike.[22] Critics of the compact argue that candidates would have less incentive to focus on states with smaller populations or fewer urban areas, and would thus be unmotivated to address rural issues.[19][23]

Close elections and election fraud[edit]

Opponents of the compact have raised concerns about election fraud. In his article, Pete du Pont argues that in 2000, "Mr. Gore's 540,000-vote margin amounted to 3.1 votes in each of the country's 175,000 precincts. 'Finding' three votes per precinct in urban areas is not a difficult thing...". However, National Popular Vote has argued that the large pool of 122 million votes spread across the country would make a close or fraudulent outcome much less likely than under the current system, in which the national winner may be determined by an extremely small vote margin in any one of the fifty-one statewide tallies.[19][23]

The NPVIC does not include any provision for a nationwide recount in the event that the vote tally is in dispute. While each state has established rules governing recounts in the event of a close or disputed statewide tally,[24] it is possible for the national vote to be close without there being a close result in any one state. Proponents of the compact argue that the need for a recount would be less likely under a national popular vote than under the current electoral system.[25]

Populous states versus low-population states[edit]

State population per electoral vote in the 2012 presidential election

There is some debate over whether the Electoral College favors small- or large-population states. Those who argue that the College favors low-population states point out that such states have proportionally more electoral votes relative to their populations, because each state's number of electors is greater by two than its (proportionally allocated) number of Congressional representatives.[18][26] In the most populous state, California, this results in an electoral clout 16% smaller than a purely proportional allocation would produce, whereas the least-populous states, with three electors, hold a voting power 143% greater than they would under purely proportional allocation. The proposed compact would give equal weight to each voter's ballot, regardless of what state they live in. Others, however, believe that since most states award electoral votes on a winner-takes-all system, the potential of populous states to shift greater numbers of electoral votes gives them more actual clout.[27][28][29]

Possible partisan advantage[edit]

Some supporters and opponents of the NPVIC have based their position at least in part on a perceived partisan advantage of the compact. Former Delaware Governor Pierre S. du Pont IV, a Republican, has argued that the compact would be an "urban power grab" and benefit Democrats.[19] However, Saul Anuzis of the Republican National Committee wrote that Republicans "need" the compact, citing what he believes to be the center-right nature of the American electorate.[30] New Yorker essayist Hendrik Hertzberg maintains that the compact would benefit neither party, noting that historically both Republicans and Democrats have been successful in winning the popular vote in presidential elections.[31] In the last five presidential elections, the electoral vote system has favored Democrats in two -- 2008, and 2012[32] -- and favored Republicans in three -- 2000, 2004, and 2016.[33] In 2000 and 2016, Democrats won the popular vote but lost in the electoral college.[34]

Relevance of state-level majorities[edit]

Two governors who have vetoed NPVIC legislation, Arnold Schwarzenegger of California and Linda Lingle of Hawaii, both in 2007, objected to the compact on the grounds that it could require their states' electoral votes to be awarded to a candidate who did not win a majority in their state. (Both states have since enacted laws joining the compact.) Supporters of the compact counter that under a national popular vote system, state-level majorities are irrelevant; in any state, votes cast contribute to the nationwide tally, which determines the winner. The preferences of individual voters are thus paramount, while state-level majorities are an obsolete intermediary measure.[35][36][37]

Legality[edit]

Supporters believe the compact is legal under Article II of the U.S. Constitution, which establishes the plenary power of the states to appoint their electors in any manner they see fit: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress…" Proponents of this position include law professor Jamie Raskin (now U.S. Congressman-elect for Maryland's 8th congressional district), who, as a state legislator, co-sponsored the first NPVIC bill to be signed into law, and law professors Akhil Reed Amar and Vikram Amar, who were the compact's original proponents.[38]

A 2008 assessment by law school student David Gringer suggested that the NPVIC could potentially violate the Voting Rights Act of 1965, but the U.S. Department of Justice in 2012 precleared California's entry into the compact under Section 5 of the Act, concluding that the compact had no adverse impact on California's racial minority voters.[39][40] FairVote's Rob Richie says that the NPVIC "treats all voters equally."[41]

Gringer also assailed the NPVIC as "an end-run around the constitutional amendment process." Raskin has responded: "the term 'end run' has no known constitutional or legal meaning. More to the point, to the extent that we follow its meaning in real usage, the 'end run' is a perfectly lawful play."[42] Raskin argues that the adoption of the term "end run" by the compact's opponents is a tacit acknowledgment of the plan's legality.

Ian Drake, an assistant professor of Political Science and another critic of the compact, has argued that the constitution both requires and prohibits Congressional approval of the compact. In Drake's view, only a constitutional amendment could make the compact valid.[43] Authors Michael Brody,[44]Jennifer Hendricks,[45] and Bradley Turflinger[46] have examined the compact and concluded that the NPVIC, if successfully enacted, would pass constitutional muster. Brody has put forth a unique theory that the legality of the NPVIC could potentially hinge on the notion that faithless electors are not necessarily obligated to vote for the candidate to whom they are pledged.[47]

It is possible that Congress would have to approve the NPVIC before it could go into effect. Article I, Section 10 of the US Constitution states that: "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress . . . enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power." However, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in Virginia v. Tennessee148 U.S. 503 (1893), and in several more recent cases, that such consent is not necessary except where a compact encroaches on federal supremacy.[48] Every Vote Equal argues that the compact could never encroach upon federal power since the Constitution explicitly gives the power of casting electoral votes to the states, not the federal government. Derek Muller argues that the NPVIC would nonetheless affect the federal system in such a way that it would require Congressional approval,[49] while Ian Drake argues that Congress is actually prohibited under the Constitution from granting approval to the NPVIC.[43] NPVIC supporters dispute this conclusion and state they plan to seek congressional approval if the compact is approved by a sufficient number of states.[50]

History[edit]

Proposals to abolish the Electoral college by amendment[edit]

Several proposals to abolish the Electoral College by constitutional amendment have been introduced in Congress over the decades. These efforts have, however, been hampered by the fact that a two-thirds vote in both the House and Senate are required to send an amendment to the states, where ratification by three-fourths of the State legislatures or by conventions in three fourths of the states is required for it to become operative.

Bayh–Celler Amendment[edit]

The amendment which came closest to success was the Bayh–Celler proposal during the 91st Congress (January 1969 – January 1971). Introduced by Representative Emanuel Celler of New York as House Joint Resolution 681, it would have replaced the Electoral College with a simpler plurality system based on the national popular vote. Under this system, the pair of candidates who had received the highest number of votes would win the presidency and vice presidency respectively, providing they won at least 40% of the national popular vote. If no pair received 40% of the popular vote, a runoff election would be held, in which the choice of president and vice president would be made from the two pairs of persons who had received the highest numbers of votes in the first election. The word "pair" was defined as "two persons who shall have consented to the joining of their names as candidates for the offices of President and Vice President."[51] Celler's proposed constitutional amendment passed in the House of Representatives by a 338–70 vote in 1969, but was filibustered in the Senate, where it died.

Every Vote Counts Amendment[edit]

A joint resolution to amend the Constitution, providing for the popular election of the president and vice president under a new electoral system was introduced in 2005 by Representative Gene Green of Texas. In 2009, at the start of the 111th Congress, Green introduced H.J.Res. 9, commonly known as the Every Vote Counts Amendment. Two other joint resolutions were proposed in the 111th Congress to amend the Constitution to establish a national popular vote for the president and vice-president. Sponsored by Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. of Illinois, H.J.Res. 36 would require a majority vote for president. Sponsored by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida, S.J.Res. 4 would leave the method of election to an Act of Congress. Each of these measures died in committee.

Academic plan[edit]

In 2001, Northwestern University law professor Robert Bennett suggested a plan in an academic publication to implement a National Popular Vote through a mechanism that would embrace state legislatures' power to appoint electors, rather than resist that power.[52] By coordinating, states constituting a majority of the Electoral College could effectively implement a popular vote.

Law professors (and brothers) Akhil Reed Amar and Vikram Amar defended the constitutionality of such a plan.[53] They proposed that a group of states, through legislation, form a compact wherein they agree to give all of their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner, regardless of the balance of votes in their own state. These state laws would only be triggered once the compact included enough states to control a majority of the electoral college (270 votes), thus guaranteeing that the national popular vote winner would also win the electoral college.

The academic plan uses two constitutional features:

  • Presidential Electors Clause in Article 2, section 1, clause 2 which gives each state the power to determine the manner in which its electors are selected.
  • Compact Clause, Article I, section 10, clause 3 under which it creates an enforceable compact.

The Amar brothers noted that such a plan could be enacted by the passage of laws in as few as eleven states and would probably not require Congressional approval, though this is not certain (see Debate above).

Organization and advocacy[edit]

This section needs additional citations for verificationPlease help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2013) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

In 2006, John Koza, a computer science professor at Stanford, was the lead author of Every Vote Equal, a book that makes a detailed case for his plan for an interstate compact to establish National Popular Vote.[54] (Koza had previously had exposure to interstate compacts from his work with state lottery commissions after inventing the scratch-off lottery ticket.) That year, Koza, Barry Fadem and others formed National Popular Vote, a non-profit group to promote the legislation. The group has a transpartisan advisory committee including former US Senators Jake GarnBirch Bayh, and David Durenberger, and former Representatives John AndersonJohn Buchanan, and Tom Campbell.

By the time of the group's opening news conference in February 2006, the proposed interstate compact had been introduced in the Illinois legislature. With backing from National Popular Vote, the NPVIC legislation was introduced in five additional state legislatures in the 2006 session. It passed in the Colorado Senate and in both houses of the California legislature before being vetoed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Adoption[edit]

History of state participation in the NPVIC as of November 2016

In 2007, NPVIC legislation was introduced in 42 states. It was passed by at least one legislative chamber in Arkansas,[55] California,[56]Colorado,[57] Illinois,[58] New Jersey,[59] North Carolina,[60] Maryland, and Hawaii.[61] Maryland became the first state to join the compact when Governor Martin O'Malley signed it into law on April 10, 2007.[62]

New Jersey became the second state to enter the compact when Governor Jon S. Corzine signed the bill on January 13, 2008.[63] Illinois became the third state to join when Governor Rod Blagojevich signed it into law on April 7, 2008[58] and Hawaii became the fourth on May 1, 2008, after the legislature overrode a second veto from the governor.[64]

Washington became the fifth state to join when Governor Christine Gregoire signed it into law on April 28, 2009.[65] Massachusetts became the sixth state to join when Governor Deval Patrick signed it into law on August 4, 2010.[66] The District of Columbia entered into the compact when the bill was signed by Mayor Adrian Fenty on October 12, 2010. (Neither chamber of Congress objected to the passage of the bill during the mandatory review period of 30 legislative days following that date, thus allowing the District's action to proceed.)[67]

Vermont joined the compact when Governor Peter Shumlin signed it into law on April 22, 2011.[68] California entered the compact on August 8, 2011, with Governor Jerry Brown's signature.[69] Rhode Island entered the compact on July 12, 2013, with Governor Lincoln Chafee's signature.[70] On April 15, 2014, New York entered the compact with a bipartisan vote in the NY assembly and Governor Andrew Cuomo's signature.[71]

NPVIC legislation has been introduced in all 50 states.[1] States where only one chamber has adopted the legislation are Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, and Oregon. In Colorado the legislation has passed in both chambers (in different sessions). Bills seeking to repeal the compact in Maryland, New Jersey, and Washington have failed.

Jurisdictions enacting law to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact
No.JurisdictionCurrent
Electoral
votes (EV)
Date adopted
1Maryland10April 10, 2007
2New Jersey14January 13, 2008
3Illinois20April 7, 2008
4Hawaii4May 1, 2008
5Washington12April 28, 2009
6Massachusetts11August 4, 2010
7District of Columbia3December 7, 2010
8Vermont3April 22, 2011
9California55August 8, 2011
10Rhode Island4July 12, 2013
11New York29April 15, 2014
Total165 (61.1% of the 270 EV needed)

Prospects[edit]

Psephologist Nate Silver wrote that, as swing states are unlikely to support a compact that reduces their influence, the compact cannot succeed without adoption by "red states".[72] As of 2016, all the states that have adopted the compact are "blue states", ranking within the 14 strongest vote shares for Barack Obama in the 2012 Presidential Election.

Bills[edit]

Currently active bills[edit]

The table below lists state bills to join the NPVIC that are currently pending (as of December 25, 2016)[73] or otherwise filed. The "EVs" column indicates the number of electoral votes each state has.

StateEVsSessionBill(s)Lower houseUpper houseExecutiveStatus
 Michigan162015–16SB 88In committee[74]Pending
 Virginia132017HB 1482Committee referral pending[75]Pending

Bills in previous sessions[edit]

The table below lists the status of past bills that received a floor vote in at least one chamber of the state's legislature. Bills which failed without a floor vote are not listed. The "EVs" column indicates the number of electoral votes the state had at the time the bill was introduced. This number may have changed since then due to reapportionment after the 2010 Census.


StateEVsSessionBill(s)Lower houseUpper houseExecutiveStatus
Flag of Arizona.svg Arizona112016HB 2456, SB 1165Passed[76]Died in committee[77]Failed
Flag of Arkansas.svg Arkansas62007HB 1703Passed[55]Died in committee[55]Failed
2009HB 1339Passed[78]Died in committee[78]Failed
Flag of California.svg California552005–06AB 2948Passed[79]Passed[79]Vetoed[79]Failed
2007–08SB 37Passed[56]Passed[56]Vetoed[56]Failed
2011AB 459Passed[80]Passed[80]Signed[69]Law
Flag of Colorado.svg Colorado92006SB 06-223Indef. postponed[81]PassedFailed
2007SB 07-046Indef. postponed[57]Passed[57]Failed
2009HB 1299Passed[82]Not voted on[82]Failed
Flag of Connecticut.svg Connecticut72009HB 6437Passed[83]Died in committeeFailed
Flag of Washington, D.C..svg District of Columbia32009–10B18-0769Passed[84]Signed[84]Law
Flag of Delaware.svg Delaware32009–10HB 198Passed[85]Not voted on[85]Failed
2011HB 55Passed[86]Died in committee[86]Failed
Flag of Hawaii.svg Hawaii42007HB 234,[87] SB 1956Did not override veto[61]Overrode veto[61]Vetoed[61]Failed
2008HB 3013, SB 2898Overrode veto[88]Overrode veto[64]Vetoed[64]Law
Flag of Illinois.svg Illinois212007–08HB 858,[89] HB 1685, SB 78Passed[58]Passed[58]Signed[58]Law
Flag of Louisiana.svg Louisiana82012HB 1095, SB 705Failed 29–64[90]Died in committee[91]Failed
Flag of Maine.svg Maine42007–08LD 1744Indef. postponed[92]Passed[93]Failed
2013–14LD 511, S 201Failed 60–85[94]Failed 17–17[94]Failed
Flag of Maryland.svg Maryland102007HB 148, SB 634Passed[95]Passed[95]Signed[95]Law
Flag of Massachusetts.svg Massachusetts122007–08HB 4952, SB 445[96]Passed[97]Passed[98]Not sent[99]Failed
2009–10H 4156Passed[100]Passed[101]SignedLaw
Flag of Michigan.svg Michigan172007–08HB 6610Passed 65–36[102]Died in committee[102]Failed
Flag of Minnesota.svg Minnesota102013–14HF799, SF585Failed 62–71[103]Died in committee[104]Failed
Flag of Missouri.svg Missouri102015–16HB 1959, SB 1401Passed[105]Died in committee[106]Failed
Flag of Montana.svg Montana32007SB 290Failed 20–30[107]Failed
Flag of Nevada.svg Nevada52009AB 413Passed[108]Died in committeeFailed
Flag of New Jersey.svg New Jersey152006–07A 4225, S 2695Passed[59]Passed[59]Signed[59]Law
Flag of New Mexico.svg New Mexico52009HB 383Passed[109][110]Not voted on[111]Failed
Flag of New York.svg New York312010A1580B, S2286ANot voted on[112]Passed[112]Failed
292011A00489, S4208Not voted on[113]Passed[114]Failed
2013A4422Passed[115]Died in committee[115]Failed
2014A4422, S3149Passed[115]Passed[116]Signed[71]Law
Flag of North Carolina.svg North Carolina152007–08H1645, S954Died in committee[117]Passed[60]Failed
Flag of North Dakota.svg North Dakota32007HB 1336Failed 31–60[118]Failed
Flag of Oklahoma.svg Oklahoma72014SB906Died in committee[119]Passed[119]Failed
Flag of Oregon.svg Oregon72009HB 2588Passed[120]Died in committeeFailed
2013HB 3077, SB 624Passed[121]Died in committee[122]Failed
2015HB 3475Passed[123]Died in committee[123]Failed
Flag of Rhode Island.svg Rhode Island42008H 7707, S 2112Passed[124]Passed[124]Vetoed[124]Failed
2009HB 5569, SB 161Failed 28–45[125][126]Passed[125]Failed
2011HB 5659, SB 164Not voted on[127]Passed[127]Failed
2013H 5575, S 346Passed[128]Passed[128]Signed[5]Law[5]
Flag of Vermont.svg Vermont32007–08H 373, S 270Passed[129]Passed[129]Vetoed[129]Failed
2009–10S 34Died in committee[130]Passed[130]Failed
2011–12S 31[131]Passed[132]Passed[132]Signed[133]Law
Flag of Washington.svg Washington112007–08HB 1750, SB 5628Died in committee[134]Passed[135]Failed
2009–10HB 1598, SB 5599Passed[136]Passed[136]Signed

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:15:48 PM12/31/16
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The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. Crooked Hillary's campaign concentrated on the coastal states which had the most bodies. The campaign did not focus on being the best for the country, but on the token elite.

The Trump campaign focused on the-fly-over-states which had been resoundingly victimized and opressed by wealthy coastal elitists.

The electorial college did its job. In theory the victimization should come to an end if the off-shoring of jobs and the H1-B program are eliminated.

Fwiw, I did not vote for either of these people. I voted for someone who didn't have a chance but would have been a better choice.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:16:58 PM12/31/16
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Yeah, because people in "singularly populous areas" aren't worth as much as people in less populated areas, right?

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:19:15 PM12/31/16
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Costal elites are so unhappy about no longer being able to victimize the-fly-over-states they are now trying to leave the union.

http://www.businessinsider.com/calexit-explainer-california-plans-to-secede-2016-11


Navy

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:20:15 PM12/31/16
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The EC worked perfectly. If the shoe were on the other foot and Kankles was the one that won the EC and Trump the popular vote...we wouldn't be having a conversation  about it at all.

Surely you don't deny that truth?

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 5:12:41 PM UTC-7, Lobo wrote:
<<Nope. It's staying. We don't change the constitution because you all are pissed you lost. >>

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 7:20:48 PM12/31/16
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Yeah, because people in "singularly populous areas" aren't worth as much as people in less populated areas, right?

You don't have the courage of your convictions?

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 8:01:20 PM12/31/16
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Bullshit it is not democratic. Each state got its full EC count to use in vote for a president regardless of voter turnout which is more democratic than what you are whining for.  Under the current system, EVERYONE gets representation.  

Of course the EC is not always going to equal out the same as the numbers who voted.  As I have told you but you are to stupid to grasp, you are comparing apples to oranges.  

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:09:10 PM12/31/16
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The President is elected by the STATES, hence the EC. The people of each state decide who would be best for their state. Whoever wins the most states becomes the President. No other contest decides it.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if you had paid attention in High School history class while studying for the Constitution test.

This safety was built into our government specifically to stop one populous area from enslaving the other states to their will. The-fly-over-states which had long since been victimized finally rose up and, hopefully, if all of the campaign promises weren't wind out a lower orifice, would finally allow them to pay back the coastal elite in kind.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:10:08 PM12/31/16
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<<Bullshit it is not democratic. Each state got its full EC count to use in vote for a president regardless of voter turnout which is more democratic than what you are whining for.>>

If that were so states like California and New York would get 3 to 4 many times as electors as they do. If it was democratic, we wouldn't have a situation in which a candidate who is outvoted by nearly 3 million votes becomes thew winner.

If another country came up with such a system that produced such outcomes, we would probably slap sanctions on them.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:16:31 PM12/31/16
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<<The EC worked perfectly. If the shoe were on the other foot and Kankles was the one that won the EC and Trump the popular vote...we wouldn't be having a conversation  about it at all.>>

Are you kidding? Your side would go apeshit!  We'd have armed bands of rightwing "militias" roaming the streets and marching on Washington and state capitals, ready to mete out "Second Amendment Remedies" for the outrage, egged on by Trump himself, who already said before the election that if he lost it was "rigged". We'd have GOPer-run states voting out Articles of Secession.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:17:33 PM12/31/16
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Lobo,

Once again, you never paid attention in High School history class. I'm surprised you passed the required Constitution test.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:20:29 PM12/31/16
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Lobo,



Are you kidding? Your side would go apeshit! 
We'd have GOPer-run states voting out Articles of Secession.

Which is pretty much what California is doing now so I guess we know where the apes are.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:23:57 PM12/31/16
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You're just another right-wing gutless wonder who makes stupid statements but won't defend them:

<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>

So, you believe that people in "singularly  populous areas" aren't worth as much as people in less populated areas, right?

(Third time I've posed this question.  I'm betting you'll run away and refuse to answer it for the third time.)

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:25:40 PM12/31/16
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Simply not true Herman. Sad to be so mentally deficient you cannot grasp that apples do no equal oranges.  Even if each state had exactly the same proportional representation for the EC, voter turnout may or may not reflect that proportional distribution.  That is because if a state has a high voter turnout, they get the same number of EC as they do when they have a very low turnout.  


On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:10:08 PM UTC-6, Lobo wrote:
<<Bullshit it is not democratic. Each state got its full EC count to use in vote for a president regardless of voter turnout which is more democratic than what you are whining for.>>

If that were so states like California and New York would get 3 to 4 many times as electors as they do. If it was democratic, we wouldn't have a situation in which a candidate who is outvoted by nearly 3 million votes becomes thew winner.

If another country came up with such a system that produced such outcomes, we would probably slap sanctions on them.


On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:01:20 PM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:
Bullshit it is not democratic. Each state got its full EC count to use in vote for a president regardless of voter turnout which is more democratic than what you are whining for.  Under the current system, EVERYONE gets representation.  

Of course the EC is not always going to equal out the same as the numbers who voted.  As I have told you but you are to stupid to grasp, you are comparing apples to oranges.  





On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 5:58:34 PM UTC-6, Lobo wrote:
<<After over 225 years of the electoral college electing presidents, look who is scratching under their armpits and expressing they surprise at how the president is picked in this country>>

As long as the electoral results agreed with the popular vote -- as it has in every election but two before 2000 (1824 and 1888, and that 1824 election happened under circumstances that were nothing like modern elections) -- there was no reason to give a shit. But now we've had the two votes diverge twice in a mere 16 years; this time by 3 MILLION popular votes. We're moving away from democracy and towards minority rule.


On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 3:05:23 PM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:
After over 225 years of the electoral college electing presidents, look who is scratching under their armpits and expressing they surprise at how the president is picked in this country.  Libbies are so stupidly absurd.  




On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-6, Rebel wrote:
DDT comprehension skill are amazing, lack of that is. The chumpsters are really a dumb lot, without the E.C they would still be scratching under thier armpits looking for those little fleas that keep them awake.

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:26:23 PM12/31/16
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How do you think the Prime Minister of England is chosen?  

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:28:37 PM12/31/16
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Simply not Herman's post you're replying to.

Sad you're so mentally deficient you cannot grasp the difference between posters.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:28:42 PM12/31/16
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<<The Trump campaign focused on the-fly-over-states which had been resoundingly victimized and opressed by wealthy coastal elitists. >>

I live in the "flyover" Deep South, which is taken for granted by Republicans, and was overlooked by both candidates because the Electoral College makes us irrelevant to campaigning.

<<The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>

No, it was put in partly to act as an independent deliberative body to keep demagogues like Trump out of the White House (read the Federalist #68, or get an overview here:


... And in part to placate slave states:


At the Philadelphia convention, the visionary Pennsylvanian James Wilson proposed direct national election of the president. But the savvy Virginian James Madison responded that such a system would prove unacceptable to the South: “The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.

Get your history fix in one place: sign up for the weekly TIME History newsletter

Virginia emerged as the big winner—the California of the Founding era—with 12 out of a total of 91 electoral votes allocated by the Philadelphia Constitution, more than a quarter of the 46 needed to win an election in the first round. After the 1800 census, Wilson’s free state of Pennsylvania had 10% more free persons than Virginia, but got 20% fewer electoral votes. Perversely, the more slaves Virginia (or any other slave state) bought or bred, the more electoral votes it would receive. Were a slave state to free any blacks who then moved North, the state could actually lose electoral votes.

If the system’s pro-slavery tilt was not overwhelmingly obvious when the Constitution was ratified, it quickly became so. For 32 of the Constitution’s first 36 years, a white slaveholding Virginian occupied the presidency.

Southerner Thomas Jefferson, for example, won the election of 1800-01 against Northerner John Adams in a race where the slavery-skew of the electoral college was the decisive margin of victory: without the extra electoral college votes generated by slavery, the mostly southern states that supported Jefferson would not have sufficed to give him a majority. As pointed observers remarked at the time, Thomas Jefferson metaphorically rode into the executive mansion on the backs of slaves.

The 1796 contest between Adams and Jefferson had featured an even sharper division between northern states and southern states. Thus, at the time the Twelfth Amendment tinkered with the Electoral College system rather than tossing it, the system’s pro-slavery bias was hardly a secret. Indeed, in the floor debate over the amendment in late 1803, Massachusetts Congressman Samuel Thatcher complained that “The representation of slaves adds thirteen members to this House in the present Congress, and eighteen Electors of President and Vice President at the next election.” But Thatcher’s complaint went unredressed. Once again, the North caved to the South by refusing to insist on direct national election.

In light of this more complete (if less flattering) account of the electoral college in the late 18th and early 19th century, Americans should ask themselves whether we want to maintain this odd—dare I say peculiar?—institution in the 21st century.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:29:10 PM12/31/16
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Herman,

You're just another gutless wonder who makes stupid statements but won't defend them:

<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>

So, you believe that people in "singularly  populous areas" aren't worth as much as people in less populated areas, right?

(Third time I've posed this question.  I'm betting you'll run away and refuse to answer it for the third time.)

I did answer it, but you did not comprehend. The mechanism was put in place so a singularly populous area would not rule all others. It is the foundation of democracy that each state would have its voice in electing the president. As you should have learned in High School history class, assuming you passed the required Constitution test, the President is elected by the states. If you wish to whine and snivel about something, then get all of those states who adopted a winner-take-all delegate policy.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:33:14 PM12/31/16
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<<The President is elected by the STATES, hence the EC. The people of each state decide who would be best for their state.>>

Which is appropriate for governorships and representatives of states, but the president is president of the nation combined, not of any state or group of states.

<<This safety was built into our government specifically to stop one populous area from enslaving the other states to their will. >>

You're saying that it was built into the system to guarantee minority rule. 

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:36:35 PM12/31/16
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Lobo,

No, it was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from ruling the country like a monarchy and to eliminate the sway of a large voter turn out in just one state. Electing via a popular vote only allows one populous state to rule all others. A nation needs all its states if it is to prosper.

Blame every state which adopted a winner-take-all policy of awarding electoral votes if you must blame something.

Crooked Hillary backers tried their best to rig the election for her and they failed.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2016/10/04/state-police-raid-indy-office-growing-voter-fraud-case/91540816/

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:37:39 PM12/31/16
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Nope, you refused to answer it - again.


<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>

That the votes of people in more populated areas rightly count for less than the votes of people in less populated areas - in other words, people in less populated areas are more valued than those in more populated areas.

There is no reason for the vote of one person to count less than the vote of another person - unless the former is valued less than the latter.

Whether you like it or not, that's your position.

Put it another way - as Lobo just did - it enshrines minority rule.

Own it.

Or not, gutless trump supporter.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:39:08 PM12/31/16
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Lobo,


<<The President is elected by the STATES, hence the EC. The people of each state decide who would be best for their state.>>

Which is appropriate for governorships and representatives of states, but the president is president of the nation combined, not of any state or group of states.

<<This safety was built into our government specifically to stop one populous area from enslaving the other states to their will. >>

You're saying that it was built into the system to guarantee minority rule.

The President is elected by the states and the states choose how to award their electoral votes. The title is President of the United STATES.

No, not minority rule. It was designed to stop minority oppression.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:39:38 PM12/31/16
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No doubt, you can get the 12 most populous states.  Just need 22 more for an amendment. >>

I agree that Republicans are not likely to give up a system that allows them to thwart the will of the people. Hence, the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. We currently have 165 electoral votes of the needed 270 to put it into effect.




On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 5:39:51 AM UTC-5, mitchscove wrote:
Great.  Here are some people who might want to take up your cause.  They can roll the irrelevance to Presidential campaigns into their own 2018 campaigns for their Senate seats:

Joe Manchin (D-WV)
Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI)
Martin Heinrich (D-NM)
Jon Tester (D-MT)
Tom Cooper (D-DE)
Angus King (I-ME)

No doubt, you can get the 12 most populous states.  Just need 22 more for an amendment.  Start with the above 6 advocates for election irrelevance and you'll be off to the races.

You might even throw in Claire McCaskill, Amy Klobuchar, Tammy Baldwin but MO, MN and WI have less to gain in the irrelevance sense.  Hillary forgot to campaign in WI anyway.
=============

Loco said:
The Electoral College Is The Worst Of Both Worlds. It’s Time For It To Go

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:43:19 PM12/31/16
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<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>


You've helped make Lobo's point that it guarantees minority rule.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:44:07 PM12/31/16
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Herman,

Nope, you refused to answer it - again.


<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>

That the votes of people in more populated areas rightly count for less than the votes of people in less populated areas - in other words, people in less populated areas are more valued than those in more populated areas.

There is no reason for the vote of one person to count less than a vote of another person - unless the former is valued less than the latter.

Whether you like it or not, that's your position.

Put it another way - as Lobo just did - it enshrines minority rule.

Own it.
Nope, I did answer it. You simply could not have passed your required Constitution test for High School graduation.

The President of the United STATES is elected by the states. Each state is awarded electoral college votes based on population 
http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_electoral_votes_does_each_state_have

The STATE determines how to award its electoral votes based on the voting of their population.



Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:49:20 PM12/31/16
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<<Which is pretty much what California is doing now so I guess we know where the apes are.>>

California isn't seceding. It's just a movement by some residents there. A Movement and a buck will buy you a cup of coffee, but GOPer state governments would actually secede if the reverse had happened. Several sitting GOP governors actually talked about seceding just over the dire horror of having president Blackenstein in the White House.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:49:24 PM12/31/16
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<<< The electorial college was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from dictating what transpired in the rest of the country. >>>

Again, your statement says that the vote of someone in, say, Los Angeles, isn't to be considered equal to that of someone in, say, Cheyenne.

In other words, because you don't like big cities (or people in big cities), you support minority rule.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:52:20 PM12/31/16
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Newsflash, trump supporter:

There is nothing unfair with the vote of a person who lives in Los Angeles counting as much as the vote of a person who lives in Cheyenne.

What is obviously unfair and undemocratic is a system in which a voter who lives in Cheyenne has more control over the outcome of the election than a voter who lives in Los Angeles.

But, because your party benefits from the latter system, you're supporting it.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:55:46 PM12/31/16
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Lobo,


<<Which is pretty much what California is doing now so I guess we know where the apes are.>>

California isn't seceding. It's just a movement by some residents there. A Movement and a buck will buy you a cup of coffee, but GOPer state governments would actually secede if the reverse had happened. Several sitting GOP governors actually talked about seceding just over the dire horror of having president Blackenstein in the White House.


California is in the process of seceding. It starts with a movement, then a bill, then a vote. You can't slice it both ways.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 9:58:48 PM12/31/16
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<<< California is in the process of seceding. >>>

Did you overhear this in a bar?

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:03:53 PM12/31/16
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Herman,

Again, your statement says that the vote of someone in, say, Los Angeles, isn't to be considered equal to that of someone in, say, Cheyenne.

In other words, because you don't like big cities (or people in big cities), you support minority rule.

Newsflash, trump supporter:

There is nothing unfair with the vote of a person who lives in Los Angeles counting as much as the vote of a person who lives in Cheyenne.

What is obviously unfair and undemocratic is a system in which a voter who lives in Cheyenne has more control over the outcome of the election than a voter who lives in Los Angeles.

But, because your party benefits from the latter system, you're supporting it.
I'm really shocked your brain was able to learn human speech.

The STATE you live in decides the worth of your vote with winner-take-all delegate allotments. Period. You obviously didn't look at the link because delegates are awarded based on POPULATION. California gets 55, the most of any state. Los Angeles residents have more control over the EC than the lowly Cheyenne Wyoming resident because

Wyoming only gets 3.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_electoral_votes_does_each_state_have


When Syphilis Willie was President he didn't change the EC either.

rol...@logikalsolutions.com

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:06:08 PM12/31/16
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Herman,

You have an amazing inability to read and absorb facts.

Newsflash, trump supporter:

I didn't vote for either Crooked Hillary or The Donald which I said before.

I voted for Jill.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:09:24 PM12/31/16
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I'm really shocked - not - that you're defending the system which has unfairly and undemocratically give your party the Presidency twice in the last 16 years.

Shocked! 

Back to your idea that people who live in big cities (more populous areas) should be deprived of an equal say in electing the President - that they should be punished merely for the fact they live in, say Los Angeles than in, say, Cheyenne:

I'm shocked that you insist on perpetuating an unfair and undemocratic system simply because it favors the GOP.

I'm shocked you want to continue to guarantee that minorities elect the President.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:10:40 PM12/31/16
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That may or may not be true.  (After all, you insist - based on nothing but hearsay - that California is "seceding".....snicker.)

You support trump, though.

You support the beneficiary of minority rule.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:12:36 PM12/31/16
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<<The President is elected by the states and the states choose how to award their electoral votes. The title is President of the United STATES.>>

We're one country, not a collection of semi-autonomous states. Whatever we were in 1787, modern mass communications and movements of people have made states much less relevant.

The word "United" in "United States" stopped being an adjective with the ratification of the Constitution. The Civil War and the adoption of the 14th Amendment cemented it even further. As the great historian Shelby Foote noted in Ken Burns "Civil War" documentary series, before the War people would say "the united states are", but after it they would say "the United States is", as we do today.

Even given what we were at the beginning of the republic, many of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention wanted a direct national election of the nation's president, but were thwarted by slave states including Virginia, which was at the time the largest state there -- the California of its day in population size when slaves were counted, even if only as 3/5 of a person.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:20:09 PM12/31/16
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<<Once again, you never paid attention in High School history class. I'm surprised you passed the required Constitution test.>>

That's very clever, but why don't you tell me where you think I'm factually wrong, Professor rol...@logikalsolutions.com...

Each vote cast in Wyoming is worth 3.6 as much as the same vote cast in California. How can that be, you might ask? It’s easy to see, when you do the math. Although Wyoming had a population in the last census of only 563,767, it gets 3 votes in the Electoral College based on its two Senators and one Congressman. California has 55 electoral votes. That sounds like a lot more, but it isn’t when you consider the size of the state. The population of California in the last census was 37,254,503, and that means that the electoral votes per capita in California are a lot less. To put it another way, the three electors in Wyoming represent an average of 187,923 residents each. The 55 electors in California represent an average of 677,355 each, and that’s a disparity of 3.6 to 1.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:26:13 PM12/31/16
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<<No, it was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from ruling the country like a monarchy and to eliminate the sway of a large voter turn out in just one state. Electing via a popular vote only allows one populous state to rule all others. A nation needs all its states if it is to prosper.>>

Can you support that belief with anything besides repitition?

I've backed up my assertions with The Federalist #68 and quotes by the authors of the Constitution.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:33:30 PM12/31/16
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People living in California and New York, and in big cities in general, are much more likely to have dark complexions and speak with "funny" accents than "real" Americans living in, say. Wyoming or North Dakota.

I don't know if that's behind Rol's reasoning, but you can bet it has a great deal if not everything to do with the reasoning of most Trump supporters. A recent PPP poll found that a solid majority of them don't think votes from California should even be counted.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 10:56:17 PM12/31/16
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<<No, it was put in place to stop a singularly populous area from ruling the country like a monarchy and to eliminate the sway of a large voter turn out in just one state. Electing via a popular vote only allows one populous state to rule all others. A nation needs all its states if it is to prosper.>>

Can you support that belief with anything besides repitition?

I've backed up my assertions with The Federalist #68 and quotes by the authors of the Constitution.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Looks as if rol...logikalsolutions hasn't found any support yet for his assertion:

btdt100

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Dec 31, 2016, 11:01:52 PM12/31/16
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Actually you have not backed up your assertions as to what Federalist 68 in fact says.  


Want to start with the first paragraph?  


THE mode of appointment of the Chief Magistrate of the United States is almost the only part of the system, of any consequence, which has escaped without severe censure, or which has received the slightest mark of approbation from its opponents. The most plausible of these, who has appeared in print, has even deigned to admit that the election of the President is pretty well guarded.1 I venture somewhat further, and hesitate not to affirm, that if the manner of it be not perfect, it is at least excellent. It unites in an eminent degree all the advantages, the union of which was to be wished for.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 11:05:56 PM12/31/16
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He figures it MUST be true, or you wouldn't hear every Trump/Republican spokesperson on TV repeat it endlessly word for word.

GOP Talking Points are the "terrific" new replacement for verifiable facts.

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 11:08:26 PM12/31/16
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People living in California and New York, and in big cities in general, are much more likely to have dark complexions and speak with "funny" accents than "real" Americans living in, say. Wyoming or North Dakota.

I don't know if that's behind Rol's reasoning, but you can bet it has a great deal if not everything to do with the reasoning of most Trump supporters. A recent PPP poll found that a solid majority of them don't think votes from California should even be counted.

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Racism, bigotry against immigrants, determination to retain power no matter how unfair/undemocratic the means....there's no good reason to devalue the votes and diminish the power of voters who happen to live in big cities.

Lobo

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Dec 31, 2016, 11:41:06 PM12/31/16
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<<THE mode of appointment of the Chief Magistrate of the United States is almost the only part of the system, of any consequence, which has escaped without severe censure, or which has received the slightest mark of approbation from its opponents. The most plausible of these, who has appeared in print, has even deigned to admit that the election of the President is pretty well guarded.1 I venture somewhat further, and hesitate not to affirm, that if the manner of it be not perfect, it is at least excellent. It unites in an eminent degree all the advantages, the union of which was to be wished for.>>

Because it was meant to be a body of wise men who were elected for their own civic virtues to deliberate and decide on a president; sort of like the College of Cardinals selecting a Pope. The people who elected the Electors were not supposed to be voting for a president themselves. For better or worse, that idea fell apart almost immediately with the first election after Washington, whereupon Hamilton offered an amendment to repeal his own creation. Instead, we got the 12th Amendment in 1803 that implicitly recognized the failure of the original idea, and was made necessary by the existence of parties ("factions"), which Hamilton, Madison and Jay had railed against in the Federalist letters.

The system we have today, in which anonymous Electors are elected to rubber-stamp particular candidates voted for in state popular elections -- most Americans probably aren't even aware that they're not actually voting for presidential candidates -- is the opposite of the founders' intention.

BTW: The goal of the EC system, according to Hamilton in Federalist 68, was to keep from the White House people with "Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity", and to stop "foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils".

If nothing else was, this last election was kind of the ultimate FAIL in that regard...

herman

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Dec 31, 2016, 11:55:07 PM12/31/16
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<<< He figures it MUST be true, or you wouldn't hear every Trump/Republican spokesperson on TV repeat it endlessly word for word.

GOP Talking Points are the "terrific" new replacement for verifiable facts. >>>

If you just keep repeating it, over and over, eventually it becomes true!

It's as if they've all undergone brainwashing.



btdt100

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Jan 1, 2017, 12:30:32 AM1/1/17
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That is not what it says Lobo.  It says a small group of people selected from the general public would have the requisites and be best able to pick a chief.  You are grossly misquoting Federalist 68 which I should add, makes no mention of a popular vote at all but rather recommends the EC system as excellent.  

Two other points he stresses:  

1.  It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder.

2.  Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. 

Sounds that Clinton was not a candidate Hamilton envisoned.  

herman

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Jan 1, 2017, 12:46:22 AM1/1/17
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Wrong, btdt.

Federalist No. 68 sure as hell DOES say this:

BTW: The goal of the EC system, according to Hamilton in Federalist 68, was to keep from the White House people with "Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity", and to stop "foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils".

If nothing else was, this last election was kind of the ultimate FAIL in that regard...



"...Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?...

The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States. It will not be too strong to say, that there will be a constant probability of seeing the station filled by characters pre-eminent for ability and virtue...."

btdt100

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Jan 1, 2017, 1:24:19 AM1/1/17
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The last election was an ultimate win as far as stopping foreign powers who had gained improper ascendant.  That is Hilliary and her foundation.  It is also was a win in blocking a cabal which includes a complicit executive branch and CIA.  

herman

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Jan 1, 2017, 1:28:22 AM1/1/17
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Not the one in 2016, btdt.  (You're hallucinating here.)

1)  Your vague insinuation about Clinton and the Foundation lacks specificity and proof.

2)  Trump invited putin to hack Clinton's computers.

3)  Trump has praised putin, the leader of a government hostile to this country's interests.

4)  putin intervened on behalf of his "useful fool" trump and attacked this country.

5)  Trump has said he might help putin in the KGB colonel's efforts to take over (seize) other countries.

Lobo

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Jan 1, 2017, 1:29:15 AM1/1/17
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<<It says a small group of people selected from the general public would have the requisites and be best able to pick a chief.  You are grossly misquoting Federalist 68 which I should add, makes no mention of a popular vote at all>>

How is that inconsistent with what I just said?

<<but rather recommends the EC system as excellent.  >>

Again, like I pointed out, Hamilton thought it would be excellent in theory, but discovered in practice that it didn't work. The Electors almost immediately began to vote as rubber stamps for "factions" as they were voted for in states. So, as EJ Dionne puts it in my original thread post, we now have the worst of both worlds. The EC is neither democratic nor anything close to what Hamilton, Madison and the others envisioned. It wasn't supposed to be democratic, but it was designed to PREVENT demagogues and people with foreign ties from entering the White House.

<<1.  It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder.

2.  Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. 

Sounds that Clinton was not a candidate Hamilton envisoned.>>

Clinton?

Have you paid ANY attention to what's been going on with Trump?


On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 12:30:32 AM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:

herman

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Jan 1, 2017, 1:34:27 AM1/1/17
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...Sounds that Clinton was not a candidate Hamilton envisoned.>>

Clinton?

Have you paid ANY attention to what's been going on with Trump?

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They're members of a cult.

Lobo

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Jan 1, 2017, 1:56:51 AM1/1/17
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<<The last election was an ultimate win as far as stopping foreign powers who had gained improper ascendant.  That is Hilliary and her foundation.>>

Trump's already far and away the most corrupt president in history, with frauds and corruptions of all sorts going back decades, and he hasn't even been inaugurated yet.

Since the election, Trump and his family have been using the office to shake down foreign leaders and interests for money and special favors for Trump properties around the world, and receive "gifts" and payments of all sorts from them. If he hasn't divested himself of those properties by the time he takes the oath of office, he'll be in violation of the emoluments clause of the Constitution, but even that won't stop all the massive conflicts of interest surrounding him.

<<It is also was a win in blocking a cabal which includes a complicit executive branch and CIA. >>

On Jan 20 we'll have a cabal which includes a complicit executive branch and the GRU.

The CIA is part of the US government. The GRU is part of your country's government.


On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 1:24:19 AM UTC-5, btdt100 wrote:

Lobo

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Jan 1, 2017, 2:05:58 AM1/1/17
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<<They're members of a cult.>>

Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and other fascists had theirs. The unquestioning adoration and glassy-eyed idolization you can see in old photos and films of their worshippers is no different than what Putin and Trump expect and receive from theirs.

herman

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Jan 1, 2017, 2:22:01 AM1/1/17
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And they're goose-stepping with the "best" of the good little Germans.

Lobo

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Jan 1, 2017, 2:39:56 AM1/1/17
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HAIL TRUMP! HAIL OUR PEOPLE! HAIL VICTORY!

Sieg HEIL!

Sieg HEIL!

Sieg HEIL!

herman

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Jan 1, 2017, 2:51:09 AM1/1/17
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I know they've been "groomed" for years by Republicans so that they've reached this point, but I'm still stunned at the rapidity with which trump followers have abandoned patriotism to the point they're pulling for putin (of all people) against America.

And it's not just one or two of them, either.  

These fools can be and are manipulated so effortlessly and so thoroughly.  I really do feel as if we're living a version of early 1930's Germany.
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