Prospective Student Here

[Paul Nguyen]

Hi gang,

I'm a prospective court reporting student thinking about taking the Court Reporting at Home (CRAH) course to get into court reporting as a career.  I've been doing a BUNCH of research because at almost 30 years old with a mortgage, I don't have the luxury of going back to a regular brick and mortar school to pick up skills.  I figured this was a good way to get into an industry that needed someone with skills and aptitudes that mirrored my own.  My research brought me to Plover and the potential it has.  I have a quick question for all, can Plover be used in a professional environment after my studies?  Is there a major difference between Plover and "professional software" such as Eclipse or Stenovations?  Is there anything I should know before I get started?  I understand that learning stenography is a HUGE time investment and I'm determined to make it work.  Does anyone here have any advice they'd be willing to share?  Thanks in advance, I'd appreciate all and any input.

And I can't wait for Hover Plover!  Looks fun.  I think a game with a central theme on typing will make honing your skills a lot more fun, i.e. Typing of the Dead.

[Hesky Fisher]

Hi Paul,

My only comment is on the software. Plover is both different and similar to the other programs you've mentioned. 

The other programs have many more features that you may or may not need. They have their own editors built in. They tend to be focused on court reporting.

Plover is focused on emulating a keyboard with the steno machine. There are a couple of people I know that use Plover in a commercial context where only real time translation is needed. 

But they are similar in that the experience of typing steno into both will be very similar. So switching between the software shouldn't be a big deal. 

Hesky

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[Mike Neale]

Hi Paul.

Great to hear from you :)

I'll share my thoughts on learning steno as I'm the same age as you and have been playing with steno for about 9 months now. I'm in a very similar situation except I don't intend to do steno for a living. My goal is to get to 200 wpm real-time dictation speed to aid thought-to-text writing, general productivity and for the enjoyment of learning steno.

What I would do is learn as much steno as possible before enrolling in a course. This is assuming that you can enroll in one of these courses at a higher level which I would very much assume you can. I believe there are enough resources out there to get competent at steno without paying any money (or very little). I would buy a steno machine that is real-time ready and get all the cables to connect it to Plover. Then choose a steno theory and buy a course book. Then set yourself a practice regime and just go for it.

There isn't a lot of mystery involved with steno. You don't need to be taken under the wing of some veteran stenographer in order to learn the "secrets" of steno. There are no secrets. Just learn the keyboard layout, learn your theory, and practice, practice, practice, practice and more practice!

Now, at this point, brick-and-mortar students would disagree with me because attending a school will teach you good fundamentals like good stroke action, keeping your hands relaxed, not looking at the keys etc.. as well as things you'll need for the court reporting career. Remember that court reporting is not necessarily the same as stenography.

Basically I would get as good at steno as possible, with a good focus on the fundamentals so you don't pick up bad habits, and when you're ready to turn your steno into a more career focused thing, enroll in a course. This avoids paying for months of tuition which is effectively going to be "here's the keyboard layout, learn it" and "here is a list of briefs, learn them". I would want to start paying only at the point where I have exhausted my options for learning for free.

I'm a very good self-taught kind of learner, so this would always be my approach with any discipline. Also, I absolutely love doing steno, so it's very easy to be motivated to do my practice sessions. It's more like playing a game than learning.

There is a wealth of learning materials online for free (many of them created by the Plover community), including some games. There are dictation practice videos on youtube at various speeds and if you're willing to pay I'm sure there are a lot more!

Now, a decision. Which steno theory should you learn? This is something worth taking the time to consider.

There are many theories out there. Some are based on phonetics and others lean a bit more towards spelling. Some focus on pure speed which require the learner to learn a lot of brief forms and some focus on minimizing the amount of memorisation and are more logical.

I started with Plover's theory which is quite logical, has a lean towards spelling and has a lot of optional briefs built in. This theory is close to NYCI (adapted by Mirabai) Then I went to Phoenix theory which is very phonetic and very logical, but I didn't really get along with it. Then I went to StenEd which is very similar to Plover's theory but perhaps a tad more logical (in my opinion). Finally I switched to Magnum Steno. This theory is similar to StenEd so it was easy to convert to it, but its focus is on writing as fast as possible. It does this by writing as few strokes as possible. The downside is that it takes longer to learn as there are more briefs and shortcuts to learn. It's less logical than the rest but, in my opinion, the time spent to learn the shortcuts and the briefs will pay off when you get to the higher speeds.

Anyway, that's me. I hope all this helps :)

Plover Resources:

Learn Plover!

QwertySteno.com

Plover Dojo

Dictation Practice:

StenoTube

walandnoah (hundreds of dictation practice videos)

[Daniel Langlois]

Hi, 

My story has some major similarities w/Mike's, in that I'm practicing on my own, and after doing some research and kicking the tires, I settled on Kislingbury's Magnum Steno as my theory. There is a fair amount of overlap between this theory, and StenEd, as well as Plover-theory (and not Phoenix, with which you get into a more distinct sort of thing, and there's perhaps no accounting for tastes -- I might agree w/the description of Phoenix as logical + phonetic, and that sounds good if it makes the theory easier to learn, which somehow doesn't seem to be the reputation that it has earned). I feel like I ought to be able to say something to justify this choice, but really, the thing that made up my mind, in retrospect, is that I just impulsively searched EBay and got my hands on four Kislingbury books in a batch for $90. However, I have no regrets. The idea of having a theory book in my hands, and some pedagogical materials that 'real' court-reporting students use in school, is somewhat reassuring, I think. 

I wouldn't underestimate the splendid available tutorial materials that are associated w/Plover, nor how production-ready is the theory, --it's the 'real deal'. It might be said to be less complex, with less memorization, compared w/Magnum Steno (which is built for speed, at all costs). 

As to whether 'can Plover be used in a professional environment after my studies?':

This is getting ahead of yourself a bit, or, at least, I haven't felt the need to goof around w/available alternate software (I'm using Plover). I think it's supposed to be pretty easy to install, at least, something, if your curious (ideally for free, for a student). I find Plover very easy to use, and actually feel rather spoiled -- it 'just works'. Other software has, though, a variety of touted features, which, in brief, haven't sounded enticing enough to me so far. I can type steno. Bam. Done. It translates in real-time. This is a sleek focus -- I might not even like to use a 'heavier' piece of software, at any price. Maybe at some point. 

As to whether to buy a steno machine, I do have a steno machine (a Stentura 8000, which is a bargain at ~$250). I used a Microsoft sidewinder X4, exclusively, for a while. And this does work. Getting a machine is just not a big decision, though (I risked an ebay purchase, actually, two of them, and seem to have lucked out, but I'd be careful only consider certain realtime-ready models, there's some info that's useful to have about this). 

I'm very much inclined to the self-learning approach, though you can enroll in a course any time you like, at some future date. I could do this, but I'm not unsatisfied w/my progress. Frankly, I see tuition money as money I could spend on something else, and there's lots of flexibility in carving your own path. Which is a package deal, but for me there's really no contest, I fail my way, or no way. Teachers can't offer any guarantees (to say the least, an absurd proposition). 

[Brent Nesbitt]

Daniel,
can you give me an idea about what magnum steno does differently from plover?  What do you mean by "speed at any cost?".  What is an example of a brief plover and magnum steno would do differently?

--

[Paul Nguyen]

Hesky,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm sorry I was very vague in my question.  I know for sure that I will be pursuing a career in court reporting, captioning, or as a CART provider.  What I don't understand is why there needs to be super expensive software for stenography when all it's really doing is translating key presses into actual words.  As far as "editors" and all that, if I'm using Plover and Notepad or Word, why can't I just "edit" the actual text file?  I'm so new to court reporting I don't know what features a "court reporter" needs or not.  It seems to me that providing anything in realtime is far more valuable than anything else, which Plover seems to be able to do.

Mike,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I understand where you are coming from so just to let you know, I'm pretty committed to taking the "study at home" course.  I'm very jealous of your ability to self-teach but I am not disciplined enough to do it.  I've tried it many times and it's not in my abilities to do so.  The beauty of the course I'm taking is that I still have a team to support and guide me through the process.  It's completely at my own pace and allows me to keep my current job while working on a skill.

From the way I understand it, there is a MYRIAD of theories out there for stenography.  If I am to understand correctly, a theory is almost like learning a language, which is why I'm apprehensive in starting anything new before I start my course.  I figure if I finish my course and see any room for improvement, I will have a good foundation to adjust accordingly.  I have spoken with a few court reporting firms here locally and they all recommend either the Magnum theory (like you have settled on) or the theory set by Ed Varallo.  Since the course I'm taking is a very simplified form of theory, consisting of only 20 lessons, I imagine that it will be simple enough of a feat to just "add on" whatever theory appeals to me.  If you don't mind me asking, why does the Magnum theory appeal to you?  What is it about the Magnum theory that sets it apart from others?  Why do you say it is "less logical"?

Thanks for your help!

Daniel,

You are correct, I probably am getting ahead of myself.  I am by no means a professional (yet!) but I was really trying to figure out what features other "heavier" software has to offer that Plover does not fulfill already.  If I can type in realtime, what else would I need?  I understand the difference between Microsoft Paint and Photoshop, but I am completely puzzled as to what any other piece of professional court reporting software out there has to offer that Plover does, as you have said, "that just works."  It is perhaps my lack of understanding and knowledge in the field that I just can't figure it out.

And just so you know, the course I'm taking is MUCH cheaper than a school and is an approach that purports to remove the "fluff" that traditional schools teach.  It's structured and paced well enough for me to follow but is cheap enough to not break the bank and make me feel like I have wasted an inordinate amount of money.  It is true that learning stenography on my own would be FAR more inexpensive, but as I have mentioned to Mike, I simply do not have that ability.  To people like you and Mike, I salute your ability and wish I had it too.

And I second Brent's questions.  I'm very curious by what you mean about the differences Magnum Steno and other theories out there.

Thanks for everyone's help!  I truly appreciate it!

[Matt Thomas]

Hi Daniel,

You can use any theory with Plover.

Hesky's written up some converters so long as you export/convert the dictionary for your particular theory as an RTF.

-
mat

Sent in Transit (mst)

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From: Daniel Langlois <danlan...@gmail.com>

Sender: plove...@googlegroups.com

Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 00:34:41 -0700 (PDT)

To: <plove...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: plove...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Prospective Student Here

--

[Mike Neale]

"What I don't understand is why there needs to be super expensive software for stenography when all it's really doing is translating key presses into actual words"

You're totally right. It doesn't need to be that way. That's why I see Plover as such an important step for the steno industry. For way too long, these large companies have had a monopoly on the stenography market, charging whatever they want for their software and people just have to pay up or shut up. Plover can take input from a steno machine, lookup the strokes in a dictionary and output the word. Done. As Hesky said, there are professional stengraphers he knows using Plover for their work (including our own Mirabai Knight). That says it all.

[Mike Neale]

Regarding Magnum Steno theory. There are several reasons I like this theory. One of which is the huge dictionary you get which is over 310,000 entries.

I have ended up writing quite a long response so I've broken it down into sections.

Writing Short:

The biggest reason I like it is its ability for the stenographer to "write short". This means writing as few strokes as possible. For example, writing the sentence: "They are going to have to hear what you have to say".

Here is that sentence written in various theories.

Phoenix: (8 strokes)

THA*EUR / TKPWOEG / TAO*FB / TAO / HAER / WHAUT / KWRO*UFB / TAO*S

StenEd (7 strokes):

THER / TKPWOEUPBG / TOF / TO / HAER / WHAUF / TOBZ

Plover (8 strokes):

THE / R / TKPW*G / STRO / HAER / WHAU / STRO / SAEU

Magnum (4 strokes):

TH*EFRGT / TOFRPL / WHA*UF / TOS

In the Phoenix example I gave the shortest possible way to write that sentence which included some phrases such as "they are" and "you have". Some phoenix students insist on writing everything out including putting "-ing" endings on in a separate stroke. If this rule was applied, the Phoenix version would be 13 strokes: THAEU / R / TKPWOE / -G / TAO / SR / TAO / HAER / WHAUT / KWROU / SR / TAO / SAEU

In the Magnum example, the phrase "They are going to have" is written in one stroke which can be broken down like this:

They : THE

are : -R

going : -G

to: -T

have : *F  (V)

Therefore all put together that makes "TH*EFRGT". You probably won't be able to piece this together while on the job so you have to learn it beforehand. Therefore, Magnum steno can take longer to learn than some of the others.

However, as a student, you don't have to learn that brief if you don't want to. You could equally write it out like this:

THE / R / TKPW-G / TO / SR

For me, I'd write it like this:

Combine "they are" into one stroke "THER"

Add the -T key to "going" to make "going to": "TKPW-GT"

SR: have

I'd write the entire sentence in 6 strokes and without having to rack my brain to remember a phrase.

Phrases:

As you can see above, there are a lot of phrases built into Magnum Steno and the words are usually pieced together in a logical way. I really like this "phrase building". Here are some simple examples:

I = EU

You = U

They = THE

Want = -PT

Need = -FRB

Were = -RP

Think = *NK

Know = *N

You can combine these in any way to make "I want" (EUPT), "You think" (*UNK), "They know" (TH*EN) etc..

Shortcuts:

Magnum has all sorts of shortcuts built in which help you write short.

dis / des can be contracted into "SD". "Decide" = SDAOEUD. "Disown" = SDOEN.

conf / conv can be contracted into "KW". "Confer" = KWER. "Converge" = "KWERJ"

imp / imb / emp / emb contracted into "KPW". "Impact" = KPWAKT. "empower" = KPWOUR

and so on...

Speed above all else

Sometimes these phrases and shortcuts create conflicts with regular words. Most theories would keep the regular word as the normal stroke and either not include the shortcut, or relegate it to an asterisk stroke. However, Magnum puts the most commonly used one has the normal stroke, and the least used one as the asterisk stroke. For example:

"could you be" / "cube".

Most theories would have "cube" as the main stroke "KAOUB" and put the phrase as "KAO*UB". The problem with this is that other phrases of a similar format don't have conflicts. "would you be" (WAOUB), "could you have" (KAOUV). So traditional theories would have you remember that one of the phrases requires the asterisk. But which one?

Whereas Magnum realises that "could you be" is more common than "cube", so it puts it as its main stroke and puts "cube" as the asterisk stroke.

This means you need to remember which words have been relegated to an asterisk stroke, but I haven't found this too hard and the payoff is worth it.

This is what I meant by "less logical than the rest". I suppose what I really mean is "less consistent when writing normal words". Most theories would have full words as the main stroke. Briefs and phrases would never overrule a full word. So you can always know the correct stroke for a full word. However Magnum would have to remember which words are overruled and require an asterisk. Therefore it's not as consistent, but I do agree with the reasons for doing this.

Conclusion:

Ultimately I like Magnum Steno because it focuses on the "short" in shorthand. One of the reasons I decided to take the extra time to learn it as my theory is because I want to write fast one day, so if I'm already writing short, I will make it easier to write faster. When writing at normal pace, my fingers will be moving much slower than one who writes everything out without briefs or phrases.

I am in no way affiliated with the creator of the theory. I'm just a guy who learnt it and found it had everything he wanted in a steno theory.

I hope this helps :)

Mike

[Brent Nesbitt]

A very informative answer, thank you.

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[paulo paniago]

 

 

Yes, very informative, thanks Mike.

And now that you mentioned that steno software doesn’t worth their value, I got curious:

What about steno machines?

Are they mechanically much better than my nkro keyboard with cherry blacks switches?

If so, how much better: incomparably better or only slightly better?

And when you compare a modern steno machine to a nkro keyboard with cherry red switches – that are switches with lighter touch – would there be convincing advantages?

Up to now, the only things I know about those professional steno keys is that they are lever based and that you can adjust tension and depth. About the machine sensibility is that it can differentiate strokes that was fully pressed from the ones that was probably unintentional – and I guess there is something about detection of ghosting.

I would like to know opinions from anyone with personal experience. I am asking that because, after the stenosaurus, someday when money is not a problem, I am planning on buying a stenograph wave for students. I think I will choose from stenograph because that is the only company with available dealer in Brazil, so I guess I would have problems with technical assistance buying from others – but I am more than opened for suggestions on this also. 

[Brent Nesbitt]

Hey Paulo,

I have both a MS Sidewinder with keycaps, and a Elan Cybra student machine.

I am also fairly new to this, and discovered most of the following only after phasing the steno machine.

The steno machine definitely has alot of configurability, as far as stroke depth and pressure, and each key is able to be set individually.  I find I like a very short stroke depth, but there may be others who like the longer depth better, which would be more difficult to do with plain key switches.

The steno machine requires a serial to usb adaptor cable, which turns out to be fairly finnicky, and can break easily.  Fortunately they are cheap.  Actually, it has a direct USB connection, but Plover doesn't support that (yet??)

I like the fact that I can have my machine connected with the Stentura protocol, and have plover turned on, and still type on my qwerty keyboard without conflict.  Using NKRO mode, I have to turn Plover on and off to switch between my sidewinder and regular keyboard.

During my practice sessions, I find I am not much slower on the sidewinder than on the steno machine (I'm currently typing between 40-70wpm), but my accuracy is a bit better with the steno machine.

The keyboard, however, is more compact, and I like to plug it into an Android tablet, and use that to practice while carpooling :)  (I suppose the compactness is more to do with the tablet, than the keyboard, however)

The steno machine also requires charging.  Although it lasts about a month between charges, but if I forgot to charge it, I would be out of luck.

I also like the fact that the steno machine mounts on a tripod, as It is more comfortable to use the machine at a lower height than most desks allow.  Although the keyboard on my lap is not bad.

The steno machine is also almost silent, while the keyboard makes a fair bit of noise while typing.

Hope that helps

--

[Paul Nguyen]

Mike,

Amazing answer Mike.  It's something worth checking out.  As an extra question, do you have any experience with Ed Varallo's theory as well?  I've talked to some local professionals and they say the theory choice for speed either comes down to Magnum Steno or Ed Varallo's theory, both written by speed champions according to the NCRA.  Magnum definitely looks interesting though, I'm going to have to give it a try.

[Mirabai Knight]

One thing to consider is that part of the advantage of both Magnum
Steno and the Varallo theory might have come from actually
constructing these theories piece by piece, cementing each brief
individually in the creator's head and muscle memory as they went. So
even though the theories are undoubtedly very fast and efficient, not
all of that efficiency might be transferable, because trying to learn
someone else's theory by rote is more difficult mnemonically than
remembering the details of something you've personally constructed
from the ground up. That's not at all to detract from Kislingbury or
Varallo's skills; but it's something to keep in mind.

[Paul Nguyen]

Hello Mirabai!  Since you're a court reporter yourself, what do you find has helped you theory-wise?  From a pro to a student, what do you think is the "ideal" way for me to find and learn a theory?  I'm afraid they are just so many choices out there that could hamper my development of this skill.

[Mirabai Knight]

Well, everyone's different, but I found that I had a lot of difficulty
memorizing other people's briefs, while I quite easily memorized the
ones I made up on my own. So I learned a fairly phonetic theory and
wrote a lot of stuff out at the beginning, but over the years I
tightened up my writing and made up more and more briefs, so these
days I'd say I write fairly short. I don't phrase anywhere near as
much as Magnum Steno people do, but I brief most common words of more
than two syllables. My medical dictionary especially is quite short,
but it's almost all briefs that I invented.

So I can't tell you what an ideal way to learn might be. Some people
want to be efficient at all costs, so they're happy to invest more
time up front learning lots and lots of briefs. Some people just want
to be able to write everything, so they'll focus their practice time
on being able to write phonetically as smoothly and reflexively as
possible, and then fold in briefs on top of that once they start being
annoyed by how cumbersome it is to write four-syllable words in four
strokes. Everyone's experience and preferences are very different.

[Brent Nesbitt]

I agree, I would be more prone to add some of this thinking to customizing my Plover dictionary, rather than switching wholesale to a different dictionary.  For that these hints are very helpful. 

The default dictionary also has a bunch of these multi-word briefs built in, and I'm at the point of trying to learn some of those myself - but some (in my mind) obvious ones are missing (like "I love you" or "thank you"), so I need to decide on how I'm going to form those.  

My first though (for "I love you") was something like ILU, but I is actually EU, so that would end up being HREU - which might work.  

I could also use 1-4-3 (a common abbreviation for "I love you") and stroke it as SPR, 

or I could think of it as just "love you", and stroke it as HROUF (LOV + U) - same thing for "thank you" THAUPBG (THANK + U)

I think I like the last idea the best.

Oh, will you look at that - "thank you" is in the default dictionary, and stroked exactly that way!

Well, I guess that confirms that I am on the right track :)

[paulo paniago]

 

Wow, great answer about the machine Brent, thanks a lot.

And also, I was wondering, do you think it is possible to manually remove the screen from a stenograph wave, without damaging it, and than, replace it with an android tablet or phone?

Than, when your application, steno keyboard, has support for the stenograph′s output, turn the wave into an android machine?

I would really like that. Also, I am sending a private message about your application; hope you can take a look later.

 

[Vicky Grobe]

Hi Paul,

I have just enrolled in the CRAH program and wondering if you started yet?   When i found Plover, I thought about canceling my enrollment, but I think to become a professional, it is best to get a certificate, which would make it much easier to get a job.  From the companies I have researched, they want credentials.  I will then switch to Plover after graduating. 

Vicky  

[Selena Stehn]

Hi. Once you have learned your steno theory, you should check out Stenographers World Elite at elite.stenographersworld.com. 

It offers speed building from 60-280 wpm, a learning management system (LMS) which grades your speed takes as well as Realtime speed takes, "Write Live" which is a live Realtime writing lab, as well as one-on-one consultations with an experienced court reporter, CART provider, or Captioner.  Elite also offers theory review to help you reinforce your theory.

Stenographers World Elite is the inexpensive alternative to brick-and-mortar schools as well as online schools.  Elite has all the tools you need to help you reach your goals and pass your certification exams.

If you have any questions, you can call me, Selena, at 888-600-2388 x1, or write to in...@stenographersworld.com.  

If you are looking for speed building, make sure you go to elite.stenographersworld.com and not our sister site stenographersworld.com, which is a webinar site for stenographers.

I hope this helps to give you some guidance.

Best wishes, 

Selena Stehn

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Carol Berk]

Make sure you learn your theory inside out.  Everything depends on your theory.  I went to school in the mid 1960s and we had six weeks of theory then everything was speed building.  There is no reason learning stenotype should take two to four years.  I worked with people who learned through correspondence courses.  The Internet has so much more to offer.  Wishing you good luck.  It's a hard job, but it's worth it.

Sent from my iPad

[Summer Sky]

I'm new to this group and that is why the late posting.

To me, the StenEd theory is the most "logical" theory for my way of thinking.  So I purchased a used StenEd theory book from the internet which, by the way, was in excellent condition.  I then purchased the accompanying audio CDs from StenoWorks for lessons 1-40 at http://www.stenoworks.com/stened-realtime-theory-audios-5-cds-for-2013-2014-school-year/.  I first practice the lessons from the theory book without listening to the CDs.  Afterwards, I practice the lessons along with the audio CDs.  To me, it really reinforces my writing.

Yes, you can self-teach but you must be disciplined.  Plover is an excellent way of discovering if you are. 

[Theodore Morin]

If you are in full-throttle learning, a great place to hang out is The Plover Aviary. Lots of great people and tips, and you can get feedback on your progress by posting frequent updates. Hope to see you there!

--

[Summer Sky]

Thanks, Ted!  I will check it out.