Kaufbeuren Tournament 2012

[Wolfgang Zugrav]

Jean, Shiv, All!

I'm considering to take part in the 12th Kaufbeuren Chess Computer Tournament 2012 (normally for dedicated chess computers only).

http://www.schachcomputer.at/Kaufbeu.htm

http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/portal.php

The New Res II from Ruud Martin will be the stongest participant so far...and is also not an "Oldie Computer".
So because of the Size of MK802II HW .. and the new concept ...i do see a chance for participation.

As i'm currently on holiday and had no MK802II hardware till now... i could not take part in the testing and get familar with pico download, compilation,....Play Games...

If you consider it to be a good idea to take part i'd suggest to get a stable version firsthand with fixing the problems, but implement new features.

If we have a tournament book and a final - most important stable - pico ... i can play there, if they let me take part.
Pico will propably win anyway, even without book and further optimization.
But needs to be stable, playing a whole game and knowing 3times repitition draw,...

However i would need little help (detailed instructions) to make it work.
Read so many posts only on my iPhone..i'm unsure if i can get it up and running by myself.

What do u think?

- Wolfgang

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

Great! I am sure Jeff has many comments as well. I have addressed some relevant questions below. Overall, I think it should be close to working well if the 3 fold repetition bug is addressed. After all, we have some dedicated testers like Javier and Walter who are now satisfied!

>
> If we have a tournament book and a final - most important stable - pico ... i can play there, if they let me take part.
> Pico will propably win anyway, even without book and further optimization.
> But needs to be stable, playing a whole game and knowing 3times repitition draw,...
>

Try the GM_1950 or the GM_2001 books for tournament books that use all GM games. I contributed the former, it has GM games from 1950 to 2012. The former book is quite large and has all positions which occurred twice or more in GM games. I think it or the GM_2001 book can be a good candidate for tournament play. The latter book has GM games from 2001 to 2012. The performance book might also be a good choice. If you are not happy with these books, it is not too hard to add a better book.

> However i would need little help (detailed instructions) to make it work.
> Read so many posts only on my iPhone..i'm unsure if i can get it up and running by myself.

I am quite sure that a person like you, who has written chess engines before (!) should have little trouble getting it to work. Feel free to email us if you have any trouble. There is the updated manual at https://github.com/jromang/Stockfish/wiki/Manual

Shiv

>
> What do u think?
>
> - Wolfgang
>

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[javieros]

Hello Wolfgang, 

These are great news!

Now Picochess is 100% stable. Only the 3 fold repetition bug can block a game, but temporarily it can be deactivated without big losses because usually the computers don't repeat moves if they think they have advantage.

Another issue you must have into account it is that sometimes the clock looks like "frozen" but it is not really frozen, waiting the appropiate time Picochess will move without error, while other times the move remains in the screen of the clock without displaying the count down time. Again there is no error and Picochess moves following the corresponding time control. 

These two facts can not be classified as bugs but only "minor improvements" to avoid confussions that Picochess required.

I recommend the performance book to get the best results,

I also have known about your work with Nimzo.

Best regards

Javier Ros

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

I have briefly reproduced the draw bug. It seems to occur after two fold repetition instead of 3. I have sent Jean a simple reproducible example.

Interestingly, as Javier has pointed out, we can entirely remove the 3 fold draw check (requires just one minute to make this change and comment out some code) and Pico can be tournament ready almost instantly. In engine events, the human operator needs to point out the draw anyway. However, Jean will probably want to fix this. The cause is not obvious to me at first glance. I don't think it will be hard to solve though.

Shiv

Sent from my iPhone

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Wolfgang,

It would be really nice to have Pico participating this tournament :-)
Pico *IS* a dedicated chess computed (just like Rev II board - based
on ARM/Lniux). Like Shiv said, I will have time to solve the
repetition draw bug, and there is already several books (I agree with
Javier, I would choose the 'pro' one). I think you will not need a lot
of time to be familiar with pico, playing is very intuitive.
I would love to see this live, but unfortunately I can't come :-) What
time controls will be used ?

Jean-Francois


2012/10/9 Shivkumar Shivaji <sshi...@gmail.com>:

[Henk Van Weersel]

Sorry to bother you. I am new to the forum. Ihad placed a reaction to the hread Kaufbeuren. I don't see it anymore. Did I perhaps something wrong in posting that way. PLease enlighten me.

Greetz and regards Henk van Weersel

 

Op maandag 8 oktober 2012 21:12:44 UTC+2 schreef Wolfgang Zugrav het volgende:

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Henk,

Sorry, your message was in the moderation queue (I don't know why) -
it is published now :-)


2012/10/13 Henk Van Weersel <hvw...@gmail.com>:

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello you all,

Unfortunately my last message was removed. Do'nt know why, but there must be a kind of forum violation.

Anyway i am very enthousiastic about the pico project. Not at the least that i own a DGT board and clock.

I am fore many years a chess computer enthousiast from the Netherlands. I also am member of the Dutch computer ascociation which unfortunionly landed in verry bad weather.

I see Wolfgang, that you are enlisted at the site from Kaufbeuren. I wil also play there with the mephisto Atlanta.I will certanly pick some info and ask you some questions. Super that you managed to do so.However i wonder if the name pico chess suites the case. If ther are fore instance 3 ore more chess chopsticks then the names would be very problematic. I would suggest to give the used engine the second part of the name . So for instance Picofish ore Pico stockfish. I'l think a suitable name can be found.

One little question. will the new mk iii stick also supported. Wouls be great.Then i can play in December against the bog bys in Leiden.

So Greets to you all and hope there will sooner be more news.

Regards Henk van Weersel

 
Op maandag 8 oktober 2012 21:12:44 UTC+2 schreef Wolfgang Zugrav het volgende:

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Henk,
There is no forum violation, the google groups system atomatically
places some message in a validation area (I don't know why yours was
needing my validation). So, welcome to this group :-)
The inital name was 'PiChess' because of the 'rapsberry pi', but I
switched to picochess because it now supports more devices. I also own
the 'http://www.picochess.org' domain, so it will keep this name ;-)

I'm afraid the MK802III will not be supported soon because there is no
Linux distribution on it. But if you are looking for more power, I
already ordered an odroid-x board : i will try to have pico run on it,
so you may wait a little bit to see if I manage to release an odroid-x
image, this will be a lot faster that the MK802II and MK802III, and
should be ready in december :-)

Regards,
Jean-Francois

2012/10/15 Henk Van Weersel <hvw...@gmail.com>:

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

Great to have a new member on the forum.

Regarding your comment on supporting more UCI engines via picochess. If prodeo or any chess engine works on the ARM cpu, it can eventually be supported. I don't think Prodeo works yet on the ARM CPU.

The new Rikomagic mk 808 device is not yet supported as Jean notes. I think a linux distribution should soon be supported on the mk808. However, the odroid-x looks interesting!

Shiv

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello You all. Thank you fore youre comments til so far I wonder if the odroid is just a print ore does it have a case around it. Also will thiss still be a dedicated chess computer ??? Its important to participate in tournaments. As  we see in earlier postings the semantic description of dedicated is just a thin grey line.

regarding chess stockfish it more than strong enough. From my point of view the support of UCI engines would be very interesting. something like Art Bik did with his chess engine and gui. The summon would be to make it possible the old Tasc engines ( the King ) working. This is still missing on the Rev II.

So guys you done a hell of a job. Congrats and respect.

Greetz Henk van Weersel

 

 

 

Op maandag 8 oktober 2012 21:12:44 UTC+2 schreef Wolfgang Zugrav het volgende:

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

I saw a case for the o-droidx board on ebay. I will let others answer the dedicated question :)

Other UCI engines are not yet supported in Picochess. I don't think the King engine is available for ARM Linux. I saw Art Bik's impressive set of UCI engines support on the android. It is harder to support many engines within Picochess. The reason is that UCI engine parameters such as opening book, level, and other settings cannot be easily configured when the only display is a DGT XL clock. In addition, commercial engines such as ones sold by TASC might need engine authors to compile a custom version for ARM Linux. The Rev II actually has an impressive set of supported engines! Engines for the ARM posted on Art Bik's page can be made to work with Picochess but have the problem of lacking a display to tune engine parameters (as already mentioned).

Regards, Shiv

[Eric Singer]

Here’s how I see things.   With enough time and effort, any dedicated chess computer can be made to do something other than play chess.   I have not seen the internals for the Rev II, but I’m guessing that it could be re-purposed to perform other tasks far easier then say my Fidelity Par Excellence.

 

I also have a belief that with time and money Picochess could be built in a device that might fit the concept of “dedicated” closer.   As far as I know the only companies making money off this project are DGT, Rikomagic or the manufacturers of Raspberry Pi.  So at this point I don’t see that happening soon, plus it takes away from this project and pushes it more into a commercial product.

 

If Picochess is/was to compete in a dedicated chess computer tournament then there should be an understanding that it’s a community project with no company/manufacturer support.   If it actually won a tournament then the competition needs to step up it game J

 

Eric

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello Wolfgang,

 

I have a few questions regarding youre participation in Kaufbeuren,

First of all didi you managed to get the setup for pico ready and what openingsbook will you use. Is it already clear that you are allowed to play in the main groupe, ore will it be a demonstration?

Will you use the Rikomagic ii ore did you received the Odroid-x and will youn use that one.

I am very curious and planning to buy just one of the two little devils, Dont know yet what it will be.

Hope we will meet soon. Arriving Friday with the other dutchies. Greetings and regards Henk van Weersel

 

[Wolfgang Zugrav]

Hello Jean!

 

I will travel on 26th of October to Kaufbeuren, not 100% sure if i will be "allowed" to take part with Pico.

However i want to ask if a new version will be available by tomorrow 25th or 26th in the morning, otherwise i'll use V0.12.

- Wolfgang

---

Von: pico...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pico...@googlegroups.com] Im Auftrag von Henk Van Weersel
Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Oktober 2012 10:10
An: pico...@googlegroups.com
Cc: zug...@gmx.at
Betreff: Re: Kaufbeuren Tournament 2012

--

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

I committed the 3-fold draw fix yesterday. Jean is merging this change in as we speak. Wait for this version if possible.

Thanks, Shiv

On Oct 23, 2012, at 2:01 PM, "Wolfgang Zugrav" <zug...@gmx.at> wrote:

Hello Jean!

 

I will travel on 26th of October to Kaufbeuren, not 100% sure if i will be "allowed" to take part with Pico.

However i want to ask if a new version will be available by tomorrow 25th or 26th in the morning, otherwise i'll use V0.12.

- Wolfgang

---

Von: pico...@googlegroups.com [mailto:picochess@googlegroups.com] Im Auftrag von Henk Van Weersel

Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Oktober 2012 10:10
An: pico...@googlegroups.com
Cc: zug...@gmx.at
Betreff: Re: Kaufbeuren Tournament 2012

Hello Wolfgang,

 

I have a few questions regarding youre participation in Kaufbeuren,

First of all didi you managed to get the setup for pico ready and what openingsbook will you use. Is it already clear that you are allowed to play in the main groupe, ore will it be a demonstration?

Will you use the Rikomagic ii ore did you received the Odroid-x and will youn use that one.

I am very curious and planning to buy just one of the two little devils, Dont know yet what it will be.

Hope we will meet soon. Arriving Friday with the other dutchies. Greetings and regards Henk van Weersel

 

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[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Wolfgang
Thanks to Shiv, to 3-fold repetition bug should be solved. I just
created the v0.13 version in github
(https://github.com/jromang/Stockfish/commit/9faeb9d6b9c09db907b9dfd60f5676752e739480)
; but I don't have time to build an MK802II updated image now (time to
go sleeping ;-) ). I will do that tomorrow if Shiv has not done it
before ;-)
The v0.13 is quite untested, so if I were you, I would also keep a
v0.12 version on an sd card in case of big problems !
Jean-Francois


2012/10/23 Shivkumar Shivaji <sshi...@gmail.com>:

> I committed the 3-fold draw fix yesterday. Jean is merging this change in as
> we speak. Wait for this version if possible.
>
> Thanks, Shiv
>
> On Oct 23, 2012, at 2:01 PM, "Wolfgang Zugrav" <zug...@gmx.at> wrote:
>
> Hello Jean!
>
> I will travel on 26th of October to Kaufbeuren, not 100% sure if i will be
> "allowed" to take part with Pico.
> However i want to ask if a new version will be available by tomorrow 25th or
> 26th in the morning, otherwise i'll use V0.12.
> - Wolfgang
>
> ________________________________

> Von: pico...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pico...@googlegroups.com] Im

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

Jean,

There is one more check I added (which was not fully merged), will make that clear as part of a modified pull request later today. I want picochess to continue playing even if its a 3-fold draw. I believe that 3-fold draws should be claimed by operator and should NOT stop normal play by engine during a game. Will made that code difference explicit and hopefully you can merge in the AM, and then the image can be built (I dont mind creating the image, but want this change to go in). I will also test the code with the changes later tonight by playing a few games.

Shiv

[Jean-Francois Romang]

I'm surely missing something, but why do you want pico to continue
playing when there is a 3 fold draw ?
If you want to continue, it's easy to take back some move, and
continue playing ?

Jean-Francois

2012/10/24 Shivkumar Shivaji <sshi...@gmail.com>:

[Wolfgang Zugrav]

Shiv,
I'm fully with Jean. 3 fold draw is what it is, a draw....on either forced
or mutual agreement (which an engine does also on not playing a worse move
but repeating three times). Pls. keep it that way.
- Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: pico...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pico...@googlegroups.com] Im

Auftrag von Jean-Francois Romang
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2012 08:50
An: pico...@googlegroups.com

Betreff: Re: Kaufbeuren Tournament 2012

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

I tested the 0.13 version for a few games and it played well enough (without more issues that are not already reported).

On 3-fold draw, I am fine with the current implementation. I do know several GM games where one side did not claim a 3-fold and the game continued. This has even happened in one of my games. Normally, I would like to announce "draw" but allow one to make more moves. However, given that there is a workaround by taking back a move, that would work fine. The real benefit of this code addition is that if there is a mistake in the claim, one can play on.

Shiv

[javieros]

The 3-fold repetition solved are very good news. When you upload the v0.13 image I will test it. Today I have taken the day free.

I don't think it is a problem to continue the play after a Draw anouncement. Suppose you are in a training game or you are analizing a game and you did not notice the Draw until Picochess announces it and it ends the game, then the training or analysis is ruined!

Javier

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Javier,

>
> I don't think it is a problem to continue the play after a Draw anouncement.
> Suppose you are in a training game or you are analizing a game and you did
> not notice the Draw until Picochess announces it and it ends the game, then
> the training or analysis is ruined!

Not if you take back some moves after the draw anoucement ?

Jean-Francois

[Jan Krabbenbos]

According to FIDE rules a three fold draw must be claimed by one of the players. And of course it happens that players don't see a three fold repetition if it occurs e.g. on move 11, 17 and 19. That's why you see some games, even with GM, that have three-fold repetitions. Also it might be that the game in question is a blitz game. In such a case different rules apply.

In Computer Chess tournaments however, the computer *MUST* make this claim in a game. And especially if you want to play in Kaufbeuren, this is a necessity to have. Therefore all computer chess programs and chess computers will always announce a three-fold repetition. I have to check the rules as made by ICGA and CSVN if you loose the game if the program does not announce the three-fold repetition.

So my advice: reverse that three-fold implementation to the original one. It is not a bug, it was intended this way!!

Regards,
Jan

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Met vriendelijke groet,

Jan Krabbenbos
jan.kra...@gmail.com

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

Thanks for the detailed advice! This is essentially Wolfgang's and Jean's advice. I will stick to this code version. My default plan was to stick to their advice, but now I have more compelling reasons to do so!

In the case of pico chess, the original implementation had a bug, it showed a draw if a position repeated twice. I have corrected this to three times and currently it declares a draw and won't allow playing on. I will not change the current behavior (not playing on after a 3-fold draw).

Shiv

[javieros]

Ok, if you have the possibility to take back and the game is not finished, it is better as Wolfgang said.

Javier

[Michael]

Hi Wolfgang,

 

I saw, that you didn't participate with Picochess; what was the reason?

 

Regards,

Michael

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello Michal, en all

 

I was in Kaufbeuren, to. Wolfgang tried to let Pico pl;ay and demonstrated it to. The point is that Kaufbeuren is a hobby tournament ment fore the old dedicated computers. Pico is in a different league. Do the revalation also played, the chessprogram ( Mephisto vancouver ) is an oldie. Wolfgang played in another group with an oldie. The question was solved with mutual understanding and it was a super weekend withch we all enjoyed verymuch. It is still on an olympic thoght. participating is more imporant as wining.

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Henk,

Nice that Wolfgang demonstrated pico :-) I understand that the goal is
to have fun, and not to win ! That said, I would have been very happy
to see a revelation vs pico game ;-)
Is there some pictures of this event ?

Jean-Francois


2012/11/1 Henk Van Weersel <hvw...@gmail.com>:

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello Jean-Francois

Helas no picture. The two opponents did not meet each orher. Wolfgang played a game agains the atlanta 36 mhz but it was way to strong. So no more butchering of the little ones. i gues pico and certainly the odrid-x is more in the leage of the non quad core PC,s

Mayby Wolfgang has some pictures on the event.I will buy riko fore start to experiment. What is the format of the openingsbook and can it be replaced by another one, ore is this in a different thread?

Greetz and regards  Henk

Op maandag 8 oktober 2012 12:12:44 UTC-7 schreef Wolfgang Zugrav het volgende:

[Jean-Francois Romang]

Hello Henk,

Pico supports polyglot opening books ; if you need a specific one, I
can include it in the default picochess image. Also, it's possible to
replace the existing ones by hand (needs recompiling, but not too
difficult). Shiv has also chessbase book support in mind :-)

Jean-Francois

2012/11/2 Henk Van Weersel <hvw...@gmail.com>:

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

Great that Pico was able to play at least one game at Kaufbeuren.

On CTG support, I have something working locally to read from CTG opening books. I took some code from another open source project. Jean has asked me to see if I can build a CTG to polyglot converter so that users outside pico chess can leverage CTG support. The converter is actually non trivial as CTG has many markings on moves that I have to discard when converting to polyglot.

I think CTG support is useful for many free books. I also have commercial books I want to play vs pico chess. Due to licensing issues these commercial books can't be made available for everyone using pico chess. Have to think on ways to use commercial CTG books without each person doing local modification. Free AND unlicensed CTG opening books can be made available (note that even free but copyrighted books cannot be distributed). However, the converter is a better solution, rather than direct CTG support within Pico, though I have the latter working locally.

Shiv

[Henk Van Weersel]

Hello Shiv,

 

I read that you can also use aquarium bookadapter to convert books to polyglot format. I will provide the following link. Maybe this can be usefil.

http://www.autochess.com/forum/new-aquarium-book-adapter-t1093.html#p6386

Greetz Henk.

Op maandag 8 oktober 2012 21:12:44 UTC+2 schreef Wolfgang Zugrav het volgende:

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

This appeared very useful at first sight. However, it seems to be a windows program that does not actually convert the book, but simulates a UCI engine that can play book moves from a CTG book if you run that program during a game. This won't be easy to get to work on a rikomagic, o-droidx, or even a Mac/Linux desktop. What would be ideal if possible is a tool that entirely converts the .ctg file to a standalone .bin polyglot file. I don't think such a thing yet exists.

Shiv

[Shivkumar Shivaji]

This link only covers the usage how to create a polyglot book if you have a PGN file. The problem is how to create a polyglot book if you don't have a PGN file but just CTG book files.

Your pointing out the aquarium book adapter led me to do a few web searches. Apparently, H.G. Mueller tried to create a CTG to polyglot converter but did not have it working correctly with all weights and did not work more on it. The book adapter apparently reduces the demand for such a book converter. I might try to create a less than perfect converter. These problems exist also because the polyglot book format is quite limited in book customization, and the CTG format supports more move options but is undocumented.

I won't promise anything on the converter yet. I have it locally working with Picochess and CTG books (by enabling a direct read of CTG books), but don't have a converter working yet. I do have a high level question. Would a converter from CTG to polyglot still be useful in your mind given the existence of the aquarium book adapter? In my mind, the benefit of having a converter is support outside Windows (Picochess for example is linux based) and easier usage of CTG books without adapters. Let me know what you think of the aquarium adapter if you get a chance to test it.

Shiv

On Nov 4, 2012, at 4:35 AM, Henk Van Weersel <hvw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Shiv,

Thank you i undertand the problem. I found another one. Is this rhe same problem ore will this work better.

http://www.chess.com/download/view/create-polyglot-opening-books-for-chessanalyse

Greetz and much obliged fore youre efforts.

Henk