Membership Request: shadowhand from Kohana
shadowhand
Woody Gilk
I am the co-founder and BDFL of the Kohana Framework,
http://kohanaframework.org/ , which has its roots in CodeIgniter.
Kohana 3.3 will be the first version to support PSR-0, and we'll be
looking at PSR-1 soon. I have not participated in this group at all,
but now that Kohana is starting to implement PSR standards, I feel I
should be part of the discussion.
Thanks,
--
Woody Gilk
http://about.me/shadowhand
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 4:34 PM, shadowhand <woody...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's me.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "PHP Standards Working Group" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/php-standards/-/ru_sjsh87-0J.
> To post to this group, send email to php-st...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> php-standard...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/php-standards?hl=en.
Paul M Jones
On Mar 25, 2012, at 16:41 , Woody Gilk wrote:
> I am the co-founder and BDFL of the Kohana Framework,
> http://kohanaframework.org/ , which has its roots in CodeIgniter.
> Kohana 3.3 will be the first version to support PSR-0, and we'll be
> looking at PSR-1 soon. I have not participated in this group at all,
> but now that Kohana is starting to implement PSR standards, I feel I
> should be part of the discussion.
I have heard of Kohana and I know it has a community around it. I say +1.
--
Paul M. Jones
http://paul-m-jones.com/
shiplu
Shiplu.Mokadd.im
ImgSign.com | A dynamic signature machine
Innovation distinguishes between follower and leader
Daniel Ribeiro Gomes
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Standards Working Group" group.
Paul Dragoonis
I'd like to openly get your response to your attitude against PSR,
which I will quote and post the link to below.
--
"Oh great, PSR-0 wasn't ugly enough, now we have PSR-1 telling us to
use camelCase and StudlyCaps. Fuck that shit."
--
https://twitter.com/#!/shadowhand/status/184029622902595584
Please don't reply directly to me, I'm only being a messenger by
putting this out here on behalf of other people who have asked me
about this.
Paul.
Paul M Jones
On Mar 27, 2012, at 11:53 , Paul Dragoonis wrote:
> Hi Woody,
>
> I'd like to openly get your response to your attitude against PSR,
> which I will quote and post the link to below.
>
> --
> "Oh great, PSR-0 wasn't ugly enough, now we have PSR-1 telling us to
> use camelCase and StudlyCaps. Fuck that shit."
> --
>
> https://twitter.com/#!/shadowhand/status/184029622902595584
Well, that's interesting. Shadowhand, I don't mean to go all "Inquisition" on you, but are you actually interested in interoperability with the other member projects here, in the sense of finding areas of agreement?
Daniel Ribeiro Gomes
Daniel Ribeiro Gomes
Woody Gilk
> Hi Woody,
>
> I'd like to openly get your response to your attitude against PSR,
> which I will quote and post the link to below.
>
> --
> "Oh great, PSR-0 wasn't ugly enough, now we have PSR-1 telling us to
> use camelCase and StudlyCaps. Fuck that shit."
> --
>
> https://twitter.com/#!/shadowhand/status/184029622902595584
This is why I want to be part of the discussion. There are some of us
in the PHP community that do not agree with the style decisions of
both PSR-0 and PSR-1. Namely, I think there are very real (not just
personal preference) reasons to avoid using camelCase and I don't like
the idea that PSR-1 is going to be accepted simply because the "big
guys" (Symfony, PEAR, Zend, etc) already use this code style. To me,
the main problem with the this group is that it is composed of people
that more or less are already in agreement and doesn't have enough
representation of smaller frameworks.
Also, the PSR-1 recommendation of using StudlyCaps is in direct
conflict with PSR-0 autoloading requirements, which assume
Under_Scores to denote directory separation when namespaces are not
being used. This needs to be reconciled.
At minimum, I hope that PSR-1 will have an alternative recommendation
for those of us that feel camelCase decreases the value of code and is
technically inferior.
I want to make it absolutely clear that I think there is _a lot_ of
value in the PSR recommendations, which is why Kohana has accepted and
implemented PSR-0 even through the dissent of many members and the
fact that is flawed (PHP is mostly case-insensitive, PSR-0 forces case
sensitivity). Again, I think these flaws mainly stem from the fact
that this group is composed primary of people that were already using
PEAR/Zend style. I see my role in this group as a voice for those of
us in the PHP community that don't think we should all follow Zend
style guidelines without question.
As you can see from the tweet in question, I am not afraid to say what
I think, but that does not mean that I will be unreasonable or
agressive towards people that do not agree with me. Programming is
based on logic and reason, and so should be the discussions that take
place in this group.
Thanks for your time,
guilher...@gmail.com
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Standards Working Group" group.
> To post to this group, send email to php-st...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to php-standard...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/php-standards?hl=en.
>
--
Guilherme Blanco
MSN: guilher...@hotmail.com
GTalk: guilhermeblanco
Toronto - ON/Canada
Paul M Jones
On Mar 27, 2012, at 12:12 , Woody Gilk wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Paul Dragoonis <drag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Woody,
>>
>> I'd like to openly get your response to your attitude against PSR,
>> which I will quote and post the link to below.
>>
>> --
>> "Oh great, PSR-0 wasn't ugly enough, now we have PSR-1 telling us to
>> use camelCase and StudlyCaps. Fuck that shit."
>> --
>>
>> https://twitter.com/#!/shadowhand/status/184029622902595584
>
> This is why I want to be part of the discussion.
Perfectly understandable, although I find the tone of the comment to be ... low.
> There are some of us
> in the PHP community that do not agree with the style decisions of
> both PSR-0 and PSR-1.
Indeed. Note that this group's primary focus is on the member projects. (If the wider PHP community adopts the things this group's members have adopted for themselves, I think that's fantastic, and a greater success than we could have hoped for.) Finally, you don't have to be a voting member to be part of the discussion, although as a project lead I think it's reasonable for you to apply.
> Also, the PSR-1 recommendation of using StudlyCaps is in direct
> conflict with PSR-0 autoloading requirements, which assume
> Under_Scores to denote directory separation when namespaces are not
> being used. This needs to be reconciled.
I can see why you'd think this was a conflict. I will spin it as more of a progression, one where no "reconciliation" is necessary.
Underscores in class names were specifically to make sure that projects not using formal namespaces yet (which was most of them at the time) would be PSR-0 compliant in a transitional way. Using underscores in class names at this point isn't strictly needed, because we have namespaces now; namespace separators are the new underscore, if you will. (I say this as someone who used underscores in class names for quite a while after namespaces were introduced.)
> At minimum, I hope that PSR-1 will have an alternative recommendation
> for those of us that feel camelCase decreases the value of code and is
> technically inferior.
At this point, it is my guess that there will not be an alternative recommendation as part of PSR-1. Of course, if you get voted in, you will be free to propose an alternative recommendation of your own, and find out how many other member project representatives agree with it.
> I want to make it absolutely clear that I think there is _a lot_ of
> value in the PSR recommendations, which is why Kohana has accepted and
> implemented PSR-0
I'm glad to hear that.
> even through the dissent of many members and the
> fact that is flawed (PHP is mostly case-insensitive, PSR-0 forces case
> sensitivity).
I don't agree that it's a "fact" that it's flawed, although I do get that you and yours find it disagreeable.
> I see my role in this group as a voice for those of
> us in the PHP community that don't think we should all follow Zend
> style guidelines without question.
As far as I can tell, your role as a project member is as a voice for your project, and of course for your own conscience. The rest of the PHP community might not agree with you all the time, but as lead of your project, you directly represent your community. (We must all try not to inflate our own importance. ;-)
> As you can see from the tweet in question, I am not afraid to say what
> I think, but that does not mean that I will be unreasonable or
> agressive towards people that do not agree with me.
There's "not being afaid to say what you think" but there's also "comporting oneself with dignity and respect." I personally hope that the level of discourse on this list will stay at least as classy as it has. Basically, "be nice."
<http://solarphp.com/project/be-nice>
> Programming is based on logic and reason, and so should be the discussions that take
> place in this group.
Programming is as much art and craft as it is science. Logic, to be used properly, must be based on true premises; reason is too often used to rationalize ones own priors without applying introspection first.
guilher...@gmail.com
Once inside of voting, you are likely to implement them, liking or not.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Standards Working Group" group.
> To post to this group, send email to php-st...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to php-standard...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/php-standards?hl=en.
>
--
Woody Gilk
<guilher...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remember that non-voting members are not obligated to follow the PSR standards.
> Once inside of voting, you are likely to implement them, liking or not.
On this statement and the obvious conclusion that a discussion of
camelCase will go nowhere (as per polling results), I am retracting my
application. There is absolutely no reason to force Kohana to adopt a
new coding standard just to get a vote at the PSR table.
Best of luck,
--
Woody Gilk
http://about.me/shadowhand
>
justin
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:56 PM, guilher...@gmail.com
> <guilher...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Remember that non-voting members are not obligated to follow the PSR standards.
>> Once inside of voting, you are likely to implement them, liking or not.
>
> On this statement and the obvious conclusion that a discussion of
> camelCase will go nowhere (as per polling results), I am retracting my
> application. There is absolutely no reason to force Kohana to adopt a
> new coding standard just to get a vote at the PSR table.
It seems like voting members aren't obligated to follow the standard
either. "Likely" maybe, but not "obligated". As I feel it should be.
-- justin
Larry E. Masters
On Mar 25, 4:41 pm, Woody Gilk <woody.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now I'll add some more information here:
>
> looking at PSR-1 soon. I have not participated in this group at all,
> but now that Kohana is starting to implement PSR standards, I feel I
> should be part of the discussion.
--
Larry E. Masters