Forum Migration

[Gerard Sanz]

Hi all,

I just announced the migration of the forum to our new platform in the blog:
http://blog.panoramio.com/2011/11/panoramio-forum-migration.html

I will send now an email to all the users of the forum that have not migrated to Google Accounts, but in any case... I want to know any single case with problems on the migration to Google Accounts.

I am traveling next week but I will try my best to be reactive to your requests. Sorry for any possible delay and thanks a milion for your help and support with this.

Have a nice weekend,
Gerard

[Old Nick]

Just read the blog and sorry to say that if this is the case then within the next few days it will be my last postings on the forum. I have enjoyed using the forum and hope that some of the comments I have left are of some use.

I have had the same sign in ever since I joined Panoramio back in Nov 2007 and during that time have read many many posts about the users who have upgraded their accounts to a Google account, and hence my account is remaining as is and if that means I can't use the forum then so be it.

John

[Kevin Childress]

Quote Gerard Sanz:

I just announced the migration of the forum to our new platform in the blog...

Interesting. Hopefully the new forum "platform for Google technology" will be supported by an actual Google search engine. (??)

[hvbemmel]

Quote Old Nick:

Just read the blog and sorry to say that if this is the case then within the next few days it will be my last postings on the forum. I have enjoyed using the forum and hope that some of the comments I have left are of some use.

I have had the same sign in ever since I joined Panoramio back in Nov 2007 and during that time have read many many posts about the users who have upgraded their accounts to a Google account, and hence my account is remaining as is and if that means I can't use the forum then so be it.

John

Hi John,

That really would be a pity. The team has been working on an easier way to keep the transition to a Google account saver or rather make it easier to reverse making a second account.

Having said that. In the forum you will see those who had problems with the transition, you will never see those millions that didn´t.

The nice thing about being an independent moderator is that I can advice things that the team cannot. I upgraded my second account some time ago, just to see what happens and I have to say that upgrading starting at the line under the sign-in in Panoramio was really something else. Starting a Google account asked a lot of concentration, specially if you only want to give data about yourself that´s absolutely necessary, and I can imagine people getting lost there. I aborted the upgrade.

So I tried it in steps. I started making a Gmail address. Making a Gmail address is rather simple and the beauty of it is that you get a Google account with it. Besides, in case something would go wrong it´s all independent from Panoramio still. You can go wrong a thousand timmes without Panoramio knowing.

So now you have a Google account and a Panoramio account. you sign in on both and klick on the line upgrade to a Google account in Panoramio. Since you already have a Google account you only have to say you are OK with upgrading. From that moment you sign in with your Gmail address.

I have advised this to many users since the start of groups and nobody had a problem. So go for it!

To end with, I also would have been happier when this wouldn´t be necessary but it´s not my call.

[davidcmc58]

Let's see what the new forum platform might bring us. To me the forum is getting pretty stale. Same old participants, same old boring topics and same old complaints ............... zzzzzzzzz.

[hvbemmel]

Quote davidcmc58:

Let's see what the new forum platform might bring us. To me the forum is getting pretty stale. Same old participants, same old boring topics and same old complaints ............... zzzzzzzzz.

I´m glad that you at least didn´t say "same old moderators"

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Old Nick:

I have had the same sign in ever since I joined Panoramio back in Nov 2007 and during that time have read many many posts about the users who have upgraded their accounts to a Google account, and hence my account is remaining as is and if that means I can't use the forum then so be it.

Good move. I "upgraded" my account a few weeks ago and wish I hadn't. The problem for me is that unless I log out every time and clear all cookies my real name leaks across into everywhere else I visit that's using Google technology. There are many parts of the Internet where I have no problem using my real name - a false name offers no real protection against anything - but I want to make that choice for myself in each case, not discover that Google has made the decision for me and cheerfully published my identity to every place I go.

I think Google should give immediate thought to the ability to have single-service-only identities, so the identity I use on Panoramio simply doesn't exist anywhere else as far as Google is concerned. There are workarounds I can use, but all of them are excessively inconvenient and none of them would be necessary if Google's developers were smart enough to understand the real-world consequences of their work.

[davidcmc58]

Herman, now that you've mentioned it. Yes, the same old moderators. But honestly, the most interesting part of the forum to me are the moderators! Each of you has the distinctive moderation style and I find it entertaining to read the comments you all make. Although I do not agree with you guys 100% all the time, I do feel that moderators have mostly done quite well. Please keep the same old moderators.

[Jörn KH]

Quote Matthew Winn:

... The problem for me is that unless I log out every time and clear all cookies my real name leaks across into everywhere else I visit that's using Google technology. ...

Yes, that is really an annoying part of Google, even when they claim to make their service more individual-related.
Because of that I'm using a separate browser for specific sites, e.g. Panoramio/Google.
For browsing through galleries or viewing the forum (hoping they remain visible if not signed-in) I use the standard browser where cookies are not allowed.

[hvbemmel]

I know everything is possible in tracing people. Nevertheless, the email address of my second account has no connection to me accept my ip and that changes often. I don´t hide it, my Panoramio username is easy to trace back to me, but I don´t see the point in giving every detail of myself in every email address I use.

i.e. At the moment facebook asked me for my telephone number for verification I opened an other account with an other email address. Sometimes I like a little privacy.

[Galatas ©]

Quote davidcmc58:

Let's see what the new forum platform might bring us. To me the forum is getting pretty stale. Same old participants, same old boring topics and same old complaints ............... zzzzzzzzz.

That's the nature of people everywhere , nothing specific to Panoramio forums.
People come , take what they want and leave. Only a minority get involved beyond that superficial level. A new layout is unlikely to change that.

[Jörn KH]

Quote Old Nick:

Just read the blog and sorry to say that if this is the case then within the next few days it will be my last postings on the forum. I have enjoyed using the forum and hope that some of the comments I have left are of some use.

I have had the same sign in ever since I joined Panoramio back in Nov 2007 and during that time have read many many posts about the users who have upgraded their accounts to a Google account, and hence my account is remaining as is and if that means I can't use the forum then so be it.

John

If you really don't want to go this step, why not create a new account for posting in the forum? Perhaps there will be a signature in this new forum, so you can lead readers to your "official" account.

[Deep.blue]

Quote Old Nick:

Just read the blog and sorry to say that if this is the case then within the next few days it will be my last postings on the forum. I have enjoyed using the forum and hope that some of the comments I have left are of some use.

I have had the same sign in ever since I joined Panoramio back in Nov 2007 and during that time have read many many posts about the users who have upgraded their accounts to a Google account, and hence my account is remaining as is and if that means I can't use the forum then so be it.

John

John, i have not upgraded yet either and i share your concerns but i seek comfort in the wise words of those that know better than me (thats most people!!)

My daughter happened to mention that to upload to youtube now, you have to have an upgraded account. I wonder if that is going to come here. It would seem logical so i suspect we may have to do it!!

[hvbemmel]

Quote Deep.blue:

My daughter happened to mention that to upload to youtube now, you have to have an upgraded account. I wonder if that is going to come here. It would seem logical so i suspect we may have to do it!!

When you read the blog, probably you have, you will see that this is the last implementation of Google in Panoramio. The same thing Gerard told us at the meeting we had in Barcelona last month. Don´t forget the main Panoramio site was already rewritten two years ago. There probably will be changes in the lay out (so to speak), but the word is you will be able to acces without upgrade.

[Galatas ©]

No need to be scared just use Google's new opt out feature http://tinyurl.com/yf34dh6

[Deep.blue]

Quote hvbemmel:

Quote Deep.blue:

My daughter happened to mention that to upload to youtube now, you have to have an upgraded account. I wonder if that is going to come here. It would seem logical so i suspect we may have to do it!!

When you read the blog, probably you have, you will see that this is the last implementation of Google in Panoramio. The same thing Gerard told us at the meeting we had in Barcelona last month. Don´t forget the main Panoramio site was already rewritten two years ago. There probably will be changes in the lay out (so to speak), but the word is you will be able to acces without upgrade.

Sorry Herman, it seems i missed that bit. I shall get on with it then and if you never hear from me again, i am either feeding crabs or lost in cyberspace!!

[someGuyinmasset]

I'm wondering if 'forced march' would be a more appropriate term than 'migration'?

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Guy, Masset seems to be ideal place for Google opt-out.
Are you lonely and single there? It could change quickly!

I understand your concern. Only solution here is to have one Google Account exclusively for Panoramio and no other services (yes, hard to check every time you start Google search you are not logged in to Panoramio).

We can disagree, but this is all we can do about it. Google decicion makers and strategy planners had already done their job.

I will miss all conservative and "old account" keeping guys, gals and Guy in new forum. (conservative is here used in positive sense -something like traditional). I already made this painful step when upgrade was introduced. It was clear, it will be mandatory for new services sooner or later.

[hvbemmel]

Quote Tomas K☼h☼ut:

I understand your concern. Only solution here is to have one Google Account exclusively for Panoramio and no other services (yes, hard to check every time you start Google search you are not logged in to Panoramio).

I use different browsers for different accounts. They are open simultaneously. Because I get questions from three languages, I even have different language versions from Panoramio open (using Chrome, FF and Opera)

[Old Nick]

To all and especially hvbemmel who took concern on my post I thank you but it does not alter the fact that there will be no Google account for me.

It took me long enough to get to this stage of operating a computer and at the age of 76 I intend remaining with the things I know and not making a mess of the system I have.

Should at any time Google decide that you must have a Google account to access Panoramio, (at the moment Gerard says no) then it will be dustbin time for all my photos.

John

[Deep.blue]

Quote Old Nick:

John, with you in mind, i decided to put the bit between my teeth and deal with my fear of being a complete computer techno numpty!! I went to upgrade my google account, and was told i already had one assocaited with my email address. Time to blame the wife who would not of course have a clue (password!!), and i was befuddled to the point of giving up. Solution lay with the youth of today. I upgraded my Pano account using my daughters upgraded google account. At least i found out who had invited me to 10 groups!! This has been bugging me for some time Maybe it will work for you.It's clearly not the best option, just a workaround. All the best.

(Ps, i have opted previously for no notifications from Pano so my daughter will not be receiving Panomails should that be the case)

[hvbemmel]

Quote Deep.blue:

John, with you in mind, i decided to put the bit between my teeth and deal with my fear of being a complete computer techno numpty!! I went to upgrade my google account, and was told i already had one assocaited with my email address. Time to blame the wife who would not of course have a clue (password!!), and i was befuddled to the point of giving up. Solution lay with the youth of today. I upgraded my Pano account using my daughters upgraded google account. At least i found out who had invited me to 10 groups!! This has been bugging me for some time Maybe it will work for you. All the best.

So I look forward to see you (again) in the new forum then!

[Hans Sterkendries]

>From personal experience:

I waited a long time to upgrade my Panoramio account to a Google account, untill I got bored looking at the advice on my homepage.

Upgrading went easy but it seemed I already had a Google account (for Youtube), so Herman's advice might be a good/safe way to upgrade.

And basically, for Panoramio nothing changed. Still using the same login, the same password, the same screen name and all my motifications go to the same e-mail adress...

That being said: don't really like the idea of the new forum technology. Make your own sentence with the words 'shit' and 'fan'.

[Galatas ©]

Quote Hans Sterkendries:

That being said: don't really like the idea of the new forum technology. Make your own sentence with the words 'shit' and 'fan'.

I share your trepidation , but who knows , they may get it right this time.

[hvbemmel]

Quote Hans Sterkendries:

That being said: don't really like the idea of the new forum technology. Make your own sentence with the words 'shit' and 'fan'.

You know that many moderators share your thoughts, but when we want to keep our job we are forced to migrate.

[JBTHEMILKER]

We are all forced.

[Daniela Brocca]

As posted by Gerard in the blog and in the entry post here

we will have next a new forum and there will be the migration from this one.
To be able to post in the forum we will need to have a Google Account, or , if we already have one, to upgrade the Panoramio Account to the Google Account. This is to do asap, or to wait until January or Febraury not being able to enter the forum in the mean time.

I want to ask here if the moderators of the lasts SPC did open a Google Account and did the upgrade.If yes, how they did it. If not, I ask here please to do it, to be able to see and enter their participations in the forum with the games accounts.

That should be done now or before the 20th - 25th of November.

[hvbemmel]

Quote Daniela Brocca:

That should be done now or before the 20th - 25th of November.

It has to be done before the migration starts, so before the 20th

[RoarX]

In case you didn't know:
http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?answer=69961

A small video tutorial I've found on how to make a Google account: http://youtu.be/f8i9b4_ppjY

[Gerard Sanz]

Quote Old Nick:

To all and especially hvbemmel who took concern on my post I thank you but it does not alter the fact that there will be no Google account for me.

It took me long enough to get to this stage of operating a computer and at the age of 76 I intend remaining with the things I know and not making a mess of the system I have.

Should at any time Google decide that you must have a Google account to access Panoramio, (at the moment Gerard says no) then it will be dustbin time for all my photos.

John

John, If the problem is technical... I am happy to have a phone call with you and drive you to the conversion step by step, just let me know.

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Gerard Sanz:

John, If the problem is technical... I am happy to have a phone call with you and drive you to the conversion step by step, just let me know.

I get the impression that for many people it's more a matter of privacy. Signing up to a Google account automatically makes your identity available to all Google services whether you want it to or not. After transferring my own account I was very disturbed to find my real name popping up on sites where I'd never registered for anything.

Computer security is part of my job. Having seen how little some companies do to protect data and how many techniques are available for stealing it, I'm of the opinion that the only sensible thing is to have a separate login for every site. No site is perfectly secure, so it's crazy to share information so that details from one site can be used somewhere else.

[hvbemmel]

I take the chance that some will say I´m prejudiced.

I think Gerard deserves a well meant compliment for the fact he is so involved with the community that he wants to keep John in our forum community being a well respected member and one of the regulars here. I think it should be said that not many managers of large websites like this are willing to help an individual with his problems, that, as John said, are clearly related to a mix of his age and his computer skills.

I think this has to be said because it seems to be easy to point at the big bad Google and ignore the many people there that have a hell of a job making us happy.

[Nick Weall]

Well written hvbemmel ~ I totally agree that Gerard deserves a very big compliment

[Gerard Sanz]

Quote Matthew Winn:

I'm of the opinion that the only sensible thing is to have a separate login for every site. No site is perfectly secure, so it's crazy to share information so that details from one site can be used somewhere else.

Then feel free to have one Google Account specifically for Panoramio. This is what Herman did, and I am totally fine with that. You CAN have more than one Google Account without linking them.

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Gerard Sanz:

Quote Matthew Winn:

I'm of the opinion that the only sensible thing is to have a separate login for every site. No site is perfectly secure, so it's crazy to share information so that details from one site can be used somewhere else.

Then feel free to have one Google Account specifically for Panoramio. This is what Herman did, and I am totally fine with that. You CAN have more than one Google Account without linking them.

I don't think you understand the problem. There's no such thing as a Google Account specifically for Panoramio.

I don't want different accounts for different places. I want one account, for Panoramio only. But with Google technology I don't have that: if I log in to Panoramio then Google recognises me everywhere. And if I log out of Google then I log out of Panoramio as well. As far as I can see there's no way to have this account recognised on Panoramio and nowhere but Panoramio. (I'd be delighted to find out that I'm wrong, but I fear I'm not.)

Let me explain why this is an issue that needs to be taken seriously. This is a hypothetical example, but I'm sure there are many real-world examples that could be used.

Suppose I have a disease that I want to discuss with others without allowing anyone to know that I'm a sufferer. I register on a forum that uses Google's technology under an assumed name. But I'm also a keen photographer, so I register on Panoramio under my own name. And perhaps I have political opinions that might get me into trouble with my employer, so I discuss those under yet another assumed name. But with Google in charge, if I forget just once to log out of one account and log in to the right one for the site I'm visiting then all of a sudden anyone who knows me can find out a whole lot more about me than I wanted to reveal.

How can this not be a problem? Does nobody at Panoramio or Google have parts of their lives that they want to keep separate?

[Hans Sterkendries]

Quote Matthew Winn:

But with Google in charge, if I forget just once to log out of one account and log in to the right one for the site I'm visiting then all of a sudden anyone who knows me can find out a whole lot more about me than I wanted to reveal.

That is off course the tricky part. But basically it is perfectly possible to keep those parts of your life seperated.

And don't get me wrong: I follow your logic 100%. My Google Account is connected to Panoramio and Youtube. That's it.

One thing that might help: use a seperate browser for your Panoramio activities with a Google Account that is dedicated to Panoramio...

[Old Nick]

It would seem to me that I have become the centre of a problem with regard to a Google account and my use of Panoramio.

My one major concern is not about privacy but the fact that at the moment I am able to open my Panoramio account, upload photos and enjoy the forum, but having read so many reports about members being unable to access there account that should I attempt to open a Google account I may end up in the same position, and to be honest at my age I don't need that kind of hassle.

I would like to thank all who have offered advice and offers to help, more so Gerard who offered to phone me and help, Hans for his personal contact with offers of help and to Hvbemmel for his understanding of what the real problem is.

I am not going to attempt to make the changes myself but will wait until either my Son or even my Granddaughter, both of whom are computer literate, come around and fix things up for me, until then I will stay as I am.

Thanks for the understanding.

John

[AustinMN]

Quote Matthew Winn:

Quote Gerard Sanz:

Quote Matthew Winn:

I'm of the opinion that the only sensible thing is to have a separate login for every site. No site is perfectly secure, so it's crazy to share information so that details from one site can be used somewhere else.

Then feel free to have one Google Account specifically for Panoramio. This is what Herman did, and I am totally fine with that. You CAN have more than one Google Account without linking them.

I don't think you understand the problem. There's no such thing as a Google Account specifically for Panoramio.

You can certanly open another Google Account, and can do so with an assumed name if you so choose. You can then create a Panoramio account (or not) associated with that google account.

The person in question does not have a google account. He can do with it as he chooses.

Austin

[AustinMN]

Quote Old Nick:

My one major concern is not about privacy but the fact that at the moment I am able to open my Panoramio account, upload photos and enjoy the forum, but having read so many reports about members being unable to access there account that should I attempt to open a Google account I may end up in the same position, and to be honest at my age I don't need that kind of hassle.

Just to offer reassurance, I have seen dozens of complaints here in the forum, and even assuming only one in a hundred comes to the forum to complain, that would still only be a very small percentage of the millions of panoramio users. But it does happen.

Quote:

I am not going to attempt to make the changes myself but will wait until either my Son or even my Granddaughter, both of whom are computer literate, come around and fix things up for me, until then I will stay as I am.

I do understand. I have been a computer programmer since I was a teenager (more than 3 decades). I have been an internet user since about 1995. I have to tell you I am embarrased at the things my children would teach me when their ages were still in the single digits. ops:

Austin

[Matthew Winn]

Quote AustinMN:

Quote Matthew Winn:

Quote Gerard Sanz:

Quote Matthew Winn:

I'm of the opinion that the only sensible thing is to have a separate login for every site. No site is perfectly secure, so it's crazy to share information so that details from one site can be used somewhere else.

Then feel free to have one Google Account specifically for Panoramio. This is what Herman did, and I am totally fine with that. You CAN have more than one Google Account without linking them.

I don't think you understand the problem. There's no such thing as a Google Account specifically for Panoramio.

You can certanly open another Google Account, and can do so with an assumed name if you so choose. You can then create a Panoramio account (or not) associated with that google account

You, too, are failing to understand my problem. The problem is nothing to do with not being able to have more than one Google account. The problem is having an account for Panoramio that is visible to non-Panoramio sites. Yes, I can have more than one account. Yes, there are workarounds that can be used. But it shouldn't be necessary for customers to have to rely on never making a mistake in order to protect their own personal information. It appears to be impossible to set up a login just for Panoramio. It's not a matter of having a login that I only use for Panoramio. It's the need to have one that won't work anywhere but Panoramio. It shouldn't be my responsibility to make sure I'm logged in or logged out correctly prior to taking any action, especially considering the irrevocable nature of any error.

These days there's no excuse for a computing professional at a company like Google to have no understanding of security issues. It's one of the prerequisites for handling personal data of any kind. I don't understand how anyone could have programmed such a thing. I don't understand how any manager could have approved it. I don't understand how any company could have employed such people in the first place. And I certainly don't understand how anyone can defend what they've done.

Please: before anyone responds to this, make sure you understand the actual problem here. Giving answers to a different problem that nobody is experiencing is not useful.

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Old Nick:

It would seem to me that I have become the centre of a problem with regard to a Google account and my use of Panoramio.

My one major concern is not about privacy

My apologies. I thought it was more of a privacy concern than a losing access to your account one.

[Hans Sterkendries]

Matthew, I'm not defending the Google strategy but the problem is that what you see as a potential breach of security they see as datamining. Their only goal is to adapt their search result to your needs and adapt the advertissements they show you to your interests...

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Hans Sterkendries:

Matthew, I'm not defending the Google strategy but the problem is that what you see as a potential breach of security they see as datamining. Their only goal is to adapt their search result to your needs and adapt the advertissements they show you to your interests...

Yeah, I guess you're right. Unfortunately they seem to think my interests include buying everything that exists. (I've heard of this targeted advertising idea, but I don't think I've ever seen it. The closest I've seen is of the form "<Name of nearby large UK town> mom saves $$$ on <product unavailable outside the US>".)

[™Ken Kruse™]

Quote Hans Sterkendries:

Matthew, I'm not defending the Google strategy but the problem is that what you see as a potential breach of security they see as datamining. Their only goal is to adapt their search result to your needs and adapt the advertissements they show you to your interests...

Tell me that someone within Google could not think of a way of misusing this data for unethical reasons. For gods sake look what happened in England with the hacking of 1,000's of cell phones just for a juicy story! I personally don't have anything to hide THAT I KNOW OF, I am however against giving too much power to an entity whose sole purpose is to make money. What if someone within an insurance company requested a list of people who searched for information on Cancer so that they could use it "for marketing purposes"? What if they then used the info to "verify" the eligibility for health insurance? Google would sell it to them and would have the alibi that "it was for marketing only".

If I was to believe (read naive) that no one within Google was capable of misusing data then I am still uneasy of entrusting them to keep my information secure against breaches. Somewhere some idiot is going to decide that he could save money by outsourcing the security to a company inside of a country where people will sell you their children for $5.......... Wait a minute it's probably already happened! If and when it does do you think it will be public news?

In the USA as well as many other countries a basic Human Right is the right to privacy and to be protected against illegal searches, is it possible there are or someday could be factions that use corporations to circumvent the restrictions of governments and abuse the rights of people? It really is an uncomforting thought of what this world could become if we continue to allow our rights to be stripped away at their current rates.

[QuentinUK]

If you make different accounts remember to previously set up different eMail addresses for each account. Because they attempt to link accounts with the same email.

I made a Google Docs Spreadsheet and was going to share it but I noticed that doing that means anyone can see my email address with the data. I do not see any reason why data can't be shared without sharing the author's email address as well.

Also if you upload photos with different account but from the same camera they could cross reference the EXIF information, which includes the camera serial number to find out you're the same person. Also if you used a credit card or claimed cash-back when you got a new camera "they" know your real id that way also.

The real reason why Google keep asking you for a mobile phone number when you log onto Google is because many people have multiple emails but not many have a large number of active mobile phone numbers. These verified real identities are much more valuable to advertisers.

[™Ken Kruse™]

At the risk of sounding paranoid doesn't it sound like the beginning of a real scary movie? The possible ways of connecting the dots are virtually endless. Hey sign up for this club card and you'll get a discount! B.S. what they're doing is charging extra for those who refuse to give them their info!

What if a fascist faction gained control over some of this info and saw you as a threat to their agenda, Would it be possible to track every move you made to determine your connections and make any attempts at resistance futile. If the people don't see this as probable or even possible then we're doomed!

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

"We sold our freedom for comfort."

Ken,
things are already done. Mobile operator know where you are, he can track where you were at holidays and how often, whom do you call, he know your address and age (personal ID), structure of your calls and if called persons are in the same network, he can combine their info with yours... In most cases you will be able to guess who is family member, who business partner, who is girl/boy friend etc.

Will you throw away your cell phone now?
P.S. See Google opt-out video on page 1 of this thread.

Quote QuentinUK:

I made a Google Docs Spreadsheet and was going to share it but I noticed that doing that means anyone can see my email address with the data. I do not see any reason why data can't be shared without sharing the author's email address as well.

Quentin:
Where do you think other users can see your email / under which circumstances in Google Doc spreadsheet?

[™Ken Kruse™]

Quote Tomas K☼h☼ut:

"We sold our freedom for comfort."

Ken,
things are already done. Mobile operator know where you are, he can track where you were at holidays and how often, whom do you call, he know your address and age (personal ID), structure of your calls and if called persons are in the same network, he can combine their info with yours... In most cases you will be able to guess who is family member, who business partner, who is girl/boy friend etc.

Will you throw away your cell phone now?
P.S. See Google opt-out video on page 1 of this thread.

What makes you think I have one? kidding of course!

I personally am not part of a resistance yet and do know resistance is futile but it is nevertheless an interesting and important topic for discussion. I will say I will stop short of a voluntary microchip implant though. According to one report I read the Obama health care bill in the USA has provisions for it. Could it be the mark of the beast?

[hvbemmel]

Ken, I´m much more afraid of the people outside Google that would love to get their hands on all those linked data. IMO there is nobody inside Google (yet) wo wants to have a go at our right of privacy.

There are however many governments who grants these rights, have them in the constitution and are bound to defend those rights, but would give anything to know every detail of your live. Even as we speak European countries have given access to an other government to look at our bank accounts, one of the biggest privacy breaches ever. Hey, but that´s for our safety!

So, for the time being I will rather see a company with part of my data as any government with all of them. The chance of Google selling my data and having the chance being sued from all the world is much slimmer then any government giving away my data for the greater good.

-----

I know I make the same mistake, but perhaps we can go back to the original topic being forum migration

[QuentinUK]

Quote Tomas K☼h☼ut:

"We sold our freedom for comfort."

...

Quentin:
Where do you think other users can see your email / under which circumstances in Google Doc spreadsheet?

When you make it public and they use the Data API to read the contents:-

http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/docs/json.html

Code:

    <author>

      <name>Google Developer Calendar</name>

      <email>developer...@google.com</email>

    </author>

This example is actually for a Calendar, but I was testing the spreadsheet when I saw my email there. I haven't tested all Google products, eg Picasa Web Albums Data API, but they use the same protocol:-
http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/docs/directory.html

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Thanks, Quentin.

So mail can be mined through API.

Although mail address is not confidental, user shall have control over it and it shall not be visible and "mineable" somewhere without explicit user consent. Even not in public documents. Ans specialy when typical user is not aware of this access through API.

Did you report this as bug to Google?
I am not sure this is designed feature.

Herman, although it might look we are going off topic, I don't think so. We discussed technical and privacy aspects of Google Account use, which will be essential for new forum access.

[QuentinUK]

I don't think its a bug. I think Google don't believe in privacy.

ps Don't think you can avoid being tracked by printing out data. Modern printers print microdots with the serial number so you can be tracked (look up DocuColor Tracking Dot Decoding Guide), this is ostensibly to catch counterfeiters.

And some Panoramio uses also use Picasa Web Albums.

[leolund]

Quote ™Ken Kruse™:

Quote Tomas K☼h☼ut:

"We sold our freedom for comfort."

I also realize that resistance is futile but at least I have cash-card mobile that can not be traced to me, and though futile, it might be worth thinking what the world would have looked like today if Hitler have had today's technology- and he was also democratically elected.
I'm glad that I'm old

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Quentin, one of Google PR clauses is: "Don't be evil".
Of course, it is PR, and other thing is business.

Although I am bit frustrated by privacy lost and strong dependence on IT technologies in our "Modern times" (see my post above), I had an impression Google was doing a fair and thoughtful job (comparing to some other companies). And yes, my impression can change, under influence of Google Account features.

But at least - Google shall not be in obvious contradiction with public statements.

I am going to ask Gerard about this issue, it looks quite serious.

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Quentin, one more question:

When email address of owner is published through API with document... does it happen even in the case, when email is not selected as public in profile of document owner?

[™Ken Kruse™]

Quote leolund:

I also realize that resistance is futile but at least I have cash-card mobile that can not be traced to me

I hope it's not a smartphone with Android (Google) operating system on it? I received an e-mail from my credit card company today promoting their new smartphone app, I get entered into a contest automatically for installing their app on my phone. Gee, I wonder where that could go if they team up with Google!

Quote leolund:

it might be worth thinking what the world would have looked like today if Hitler have had today's technology- and he was also democratically elected.
I'm glad that I'm old

Those were my exact thoughts leolund, as was mentioned earlier we are handing our rights to privacy over in the sake of security and convenience, it's amazing how few people know that Hitlers rise to power was precipitated by the Reichstag fire which many believe was perpetrated by Hitler for just that reason. It's also kind of spooky to think the same thing might be happening again while we applaud the conspirators for doing it just like the Germans sheepishly did with Hitler.

And to keep this on topic, how many people actually read the TOS let alone understand everything. For all most people know they are agreeing to virtual glass walls without a clue.

[Matthew Winn]

Quote QuentinUK:

I don't think its a bug. I think Google don't believe in privacy.

It's not so much deliberate invasion of privacy that worries me, but incompetent invasion of privacy.

Google has a graduates-only policy. I've worked with many graduate and non-graduate developers and designers, and the graduates tend to cluster around the middle of the range of talent. Very few of them are bad because the bad ones can't make it through the course, but very few of them are brilliant either because the brilliant ones find formal education stifling. On top of that, many graduates have little or no experience of what their work means in the real world.

A couple of years ago there was an outcry when Google Earth started showing Panoramio photographs without credits. Some people saw it as Google Stealing Our Pictures. I saw it more as some developer approaching the problem as "showing a picture on a screen" and not considering the picture in terms of it being the copyrighted property of a genuine flesh-and-blood person. That's an issue I've often experienced with graduates: if they've never worked in a commercial environment they often fail to see the code as anything other than a purely intellectual exercise. In my last job I had to deal with developers who couldn't see the problem with implicitly disclosing the fact that a child had been the victim of sexual abuse. Until it was pointed out to them (several times) they simply didn't connect the numbers in the database with the suffering of a real child with real expectations of privacy.

What worries me about Google's collecting of information is that past experience shows that the intellectual isolation of their staff means that many of them don't have the experience to think through the consequences of what they're doing. When Google is eventually found to have a major privacy breach I don't think their reaction will be "Damn, they've caught us!" It'll be more along the lines of "I'm sorry? What's the problem?"

[Draken]

The new forum is here. Any comments? Please be civil. 

[Draken]

Olsmar

Please in English. Thanks

[lpc1234]

Yes,

Er.... how do you get back to your photos page?

[apart from re-loading in a new tab ]

[RoarX]

Ignore it, this is the English (international) forum, there is a German forum to use.

[SteveT]

Thank for the new forum Gerard, there's a lot to get used to and possibly a bit confusing for a lot of people.

There doesn't seem to be any edit facility for posts once posted. Or is that just for the old style posts- I'll find out once I post this.

There also doesn't seem to be any preview.

Once in the forum there's no quick button to get you back to Panoramio.

Stephen

needing more time to form a fair verdict.

[Daniela Brocca]

I was reading the Questions and support thread and  now it  is not there anymore. It disappeared.

And I did not find the  Moderators only forum . I think we have some  problems.

[D. Alexandru Ioan]

We can create one, I think :) 

[leolund]

I don't feel at home but I guess that maybe will pass. To begin with it feels like a bit of a mess, what's with the mix between groups and the forum in the left meny?
Why when I go through the list of my groups I end up in the forumthreads?
Why when I want to translate form a non english language it always translates to Swedish?
I'll continue exploring and will probably have more questions.

[Daniela Brocca]

No, sorry, it disappeared in my page,but we are writing here,now. But the Moderators only is not there.  Not possible to edit, no preview. No pages, no search button,  and so on.

[RoarX]

Both the moderators only and panoramio groups forum are not live yet. (or so it seems...) Remember to click "mark as read" on all forums (well, this is not a forum, just some Google groups). It will be easy to see all new posts then.

[Draken]

I don't think the e-mail notifications are working yet.

[D. Alexandru Ioan]

I saw that notifications are set, by default, on 'no email'. And that's a good thing :)

[Peter Uspensky]

It's terrible. no more words ((

[Draken]

Yes, but I changed it to receive the notifications (your post, for instance) to no avail.

[dzonihsv]

I'm not a fan of this forum/group thingy too, but there's no choise now. 

As I see, there's more things to be done. Mod functions, editing of messages...

[hvbemmel]

Most moderator functions you find under actions, editing for mods and for posters is really needed!

[dzonihsv]

Sure. But some functions as split topic, move posts, and similar are needed too. 

But let's not jump into conclusions, maybe we should wait for administration to implement all these things (I really hope they will).

[Matthew Winn]

When it was announced that the new forum would be using "Google Technology" I was afraid it would be part of Google Groups. I'm disappointed to find my fears justified. It's the worst discussion engine there is: untidy, cluttered, slow, inefficient, and flashy for the sake of it. They've been working on it for a decade and it's still nothing like as usable as any of the competition.

I really think Google should take a leaf out of Oracle's book. Oracle are more than willing to throw away their own in-house code if they come across something that does the job better. OK, admittedly they usually buy the company that writes the superior product before junking their own code so the end result is that they're still promoting their own product, but from the customers' point of view that doesn't much matter. Google seem to lean far more to the must-be-invented-here end of things. It's time they junked Google Groups and used something that actually did the job properly.

[Sandy065]

No message "edit" button on older posts (this being my first post under new format I'll get back after I'll check for new posts too)

No message "preview".

Left "Groups" area (bar) confusing - maybe making it hide-able?... 

Some smilies won't hurt.

On "Management tasks", under "Settings", it seems alot of people are "managers" including me?!! A lot of e-mails are visible there - not so happy with that. Anyway I didn't touched anything there... Yet.

The rest seems ok to me so far.

[Gerard Sanz]

We are fixing this now. It will be solved in less than 10min. Thanks for the feedback!

[YvesSch]

When reading through the forums, I always wondered why there were so many people worried about forum migration.  I am disappointed by the new layout, very messy and difficult to navigate about.  Not to mention all of the features that no longer exist.

However, I do feel that perhaps it may be a bit early to tell.  The transfer has just taken place so I will hold off on any final judgement.

[SteveT]

I can't link to a Panoramio image directly in the form http://www.panoramio.com/photo/62556695  to display a picture in the forum as a 'link' or 'insert image' in the recommended medium format.

Stephen

[Panamon-Creel]

Yes you can Steve, once you see the image in your post preview click on it and there you can change the link

[Kevin Childress]

So how does one get back to one's photo pages after entering this "forum"????

And in this "forum" where does one find a crumb trail for where you are, and where is the "forum" list???  

[RoarX]

As far as I know, it will be fixed next week. It should look like it does in groups. Panoramio links and all.

[Gerard Sanz]

Hi all,

We have 1 bug and 1 missing feature that we can not fix now, but hopefully next week. (Yes, it is unfortunate that americans are eating the turkey today so we can not get the help we need :P).

The bug:

The forum should be embedded in a Panoramio page and links should be Panoramio-like. The same as in Panoramio groups. The problem is that the embedded version of the forum, due to the complexity of sub-forums have a bug that hangs the screen when posting a new topic. It is for this reason that we have launched the web-version of the forum and we will change that next week when the Google Groups team is back to the office from thanks giving.

You will notice to that as a result of this the Google bar is visible at the top of the Google forum. This is not in any case us integrating with Google+ now or anything like this. Just do not use it. It is something from the Google Groups UI.

The missing feature:

Search of old posts is not working now. Search for new posts yes. This will also be fixed by the Google Groups team hopefully next week. 

We launched with this 2 points missing not to leave the forum down 1 week, so I hope the trade-off was fine. We have just finished also removing access to Settings (some small set of users had acces to it by mistake). Sorry for this!

Thanks so much for the patience while we fix all the problems. (Moderators forum will be live very soon too)

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

I'll try to be civil as much as possible... :-)

 

American Indian tribal wisdom came to my mind:

When you discover you’re riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. 

http://www.dbrmfg.co.nz/Next%20Step%20Dead%20Horse%20Strategies.htm

 

I don't want to sound it disrespectful - I can imagine how much effort was invested to forum revamp and how many constraints had to be fulfilled. But to be sincere - from users point of view, the new forum (and discussions in the groups) with current functionalty and layout is a dead horse. Sorry to say that.

 

We can only pray for Google and hope Google is strong enough to revive dead horses!

[QuentinUK]

Where is this setting?

I have not made it public.

[Peter Uspensky]

 Gerard Sanz wrote:

We are fixing this now. It will be solved in less than 10min. Thanks for the feedback!

Hi Gerard.

I'm just wondering what issues have been resolved in 10min? Still don't see  Edit  button in my posts

Other problems: 

When I come into the topic, then it reads all the posts. But some threads have many thousand posts with pictures and our browsers then hang. Is it possible to split up the topics into pages?

Can't answer with quotation in English. Quotation starts with words in native language, that is not good.

Can't reach the last post of any topic per 1 click from index page of Google Groups

[Sergio Canobbio]

I agree with Tomas. Dead horse.

[Galatas ©]

The old forum was plain , some called it drab , but it was functional.
This new layout is all froth and no substance. For instance , do we need all those tiny avatars everywhere ?
I tried browsing older posts in the SYP forum and after the first page Firefox froze completely.

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/tech-manager/the-shiny-new-penny-syndrome/2528

[CliveM]

This presumably means that there is not going to be a means of editing a post in the foreseeable future. This is a pity - in a group forum recently I entered a post and then kept noticing typing mistakes in it. The only option available was to copy the post, paste it into a new post, correct the errors, store the new post and delete the old one. This left a "message has been deleted" notice in the forum, which makes it look untidy and also proclaims to posterity that I made several typing errors!

[sixten_imgs]

I would like to wait some time until I can be civil again. Was that a comment :)

One question: In this new jungle of all those lists, arrows and other buttons, dates and unnecessary, ridiculously tiny and numerous user avatars is there a way to show the newest posts of the threads first? 

[CliveM]

If the new forum has automatic translation buttons (incidentally, I can't see any here, not even in olsmar's German post - although they are available in the Panoramio group forums), why do we still need segregated forums? Why does the so-called "international" forum have to be exclusively in English?

[RoarX]

I..., why do we still need segregated forums? Why does the so-called "international" forum have to be exclusively in English?

The automatic translation isn't always so good.

[IPAAT]

пятница, 25 ноября 2011 г. 16:54:40 UTC+4 пользователь CliveM написал:

If the new forum has automatic translation buttons (incidentally, I can't see any here, not even in olsmar's German post - although they are available in the Panoramio group forums), why do we still need segregated forums? Why does the so-called "international" forum have to be exclusively in English?

Хороший вопрос. Может быть вы правы. Впрочем, вряд ли с автоматическим переводом можно общаться на едином уровне понимания. Или вы не согласны? 

[CliveM]

I agree that automatic translation is not perfect, but at least I can respond to your Russian post and so communication between us is possible. If we always have to post in separate forums, there will never be a chance for us to communicate.

 

I think automatic translation is more useful translating into one's own language, so that one can at least decide whether the translation makes any sense. You can write in Russian and it can be automatically translated into English. If the automatic translation makes sense in English, I can respond in English. If your post were confined to the Russian forum, first of all I would never be likely to see it. Even if I did, I would be unable to compose a proper reply in Russian.

[zerega]

"In this new jungle of all those lists, arrows and other buttons, dates and unnecessary, ridiculously tiny and numerous user avatars "

 

Well said. Its an eyesore. A step back in time, complex and cluttered. Why isn't everything displayed in binary code?

 

Was Steve Jobs the only computer geek who took "useless" calligraphy lessons in college?

[zerega]

Similar opinion by Matthew Winn: "When it was announced that the new forum would be using "Google Technology" I was afraid it would be part of Google Groups. I'm disappointed to find my fears justified. It's the worst discussion engine there is: untidy, cluttered, slow, inefficient, and flashy for the sake of it. They've been working on it for a decade and it's still nothing like as usable as any of the competition."

[Tomas K☼h☼ut]

Why the horse is dead...

 

There are first impressions of new forum. Some of them I mentioned already when I comment functionality of the Panoramio Groups. But in Groups a lot of thing are not so important - focus of groups is not on discussions (this is reality) but on photos. Here it is something completely different. Focus in forum is on discussion and forum content.

 

a) Incomplete or wrong transfer of forum content:

1. Some forum sections were not transferred
   I am missing "Groups" and (for moderators only) Moderators sections. Fixed
   
2. All internal forum links are broken  Fixed? I am not sure if all...
   I am talking about links from one forum topic to another thread, thread page or topic.
   
3. Some topics are split into more threads  OK, we can live with it
   Boring when in initial post of the original topic (formerly in on thread) was something like "index", or updated "list of issues". (E.g. topic about user tools)

b) Layout:

1. Layout is cluttered Improved slightly, still some strange and redundant controls
   Controls are scattered at too much places of the screen and they are far from being intuitive. Layout looks light and clean at first sight, but controls are poorly aligned (could be problem of specific language version), some controls are duplicated, many controls are redundant or I don't understand their purpose in actively moderated forum ("report misuse", "lock replies", "set duplicates", "overtake"). Perhaps some of the functions are intended for moderation?
   P.S. my translation from Czech might not be accurate and you see different and more self-explanatory captions of controls.
   
2. Blinking captions! Improved, blinking in smaller area, but still some fight and blinking between bubble help and caption
   When mouse cursor is placed over forum area sub caption (in entry page with list of forum areas), section of selected area starts blinking. Blinking...! That's something that shall be forbidden in all application and web pages design. Only thing allowed to blink is text cursor or very tiny areas of screen.
   
3. Framework outside Panoramio Fixed
   Within Panoramio forum user does not need left pane with list of all groups he is member in. On the other hand, there is no link to Panoramio site from forum. There is no upper nor bottom navigation bar (header / footer) with links to other Panoramio sections and functions (Your photos, Upload, Groups, Blog etc). I know this is promised to be fixed.
   
4. Waste of page space Improved, less wasted space, but edit box for post is still too small
   E.g. when writing post, text input box occupies only 1/4 - 1/3 of screen. Rest of the screen is occupied by controls (most of them are meaningless when writing post), some of them are duplicated (!), rest is the white-space.
   Between posts in view mode are redundant "Translate" links - they can be placed in context menu of active post
   
5. I hate "Infinite" scrolling Not fixed on topics directory, loading topics to the end is not final solution (long load of long threads)
   Instead of breaking long topics into more pages and giving an intuitive navigation (page links + address bar), there is incremental fetching of the long topics. No easy way how to get to the end of the topic or to its specific part. Poor position within topic orientation (scroll-bars position differs according to so far fetched part). Scroll-bar and user interface is frozen when fetching starts and system takes the control.

 

 

c) Functionality problems and missing features

1. No edit of posts Fixed
   We really need it. To edit "index" and summary posts. To correct typos. To moderate some posts. Do I say we need it? Yes, we need it.
   
2. No preview of posts Fixed by c1.
   Not so big issue, as editor is now quite WYSIWYG. But still can be useful, especially for long post and post with links and pictures.
   
3. Deleted post visible - without any reasonable information Not Fixed
   Why there are visible deleted posts as "deleted" - without information who wrote and deleted the post, without excerpt of deleted post? It makes no sense. It only consumes a space and disturbs.
   
4. Interface language switching is not possible Fixed
   I'd like to switch language of forum interface to English - I am not sureif all  translations are accurate. But I cannot switch - no link, no language parameter in adressbar...
   
5. Disturbing pop ups when new post arrives Partially fixed - focus is sometimes stolen, but scroll is not so distant
   At the moment when new post arrives, user interface stops responding for a while. Also screen scrolls away (scroll forced by system). Extremly boring especially when it happens when user writes a post. Popup stays on screen and blocks scrollbar.
   
6. No signalization of new posts within forum sections Partially fixed - stickies are not included in signalization
   You cannot see if there are new unread posts in specific forum area at index page. You have to open the area to see if there is anything new.
   
7. No cooperation with Google Toolbar online translation Fixed
   I use Google Toolbar in IE8 for online translation of word hovered by mouse or selected portion of text. In old forum, it showed translated word or selected phrase in popup bubble. I know - for forum posts I have translation link, but I'd like to have translation also in edit box when writing new post or quoting original post. And I don't have Google toolbar translations does not work here (I think translation is not working within iframe?)
    
8. No mobile friendly version Not fixed
   Mobile Opera Mini is not able to render Google Group pages (it was possible till "upgrade" from older groups version). It loads plenty of KB, but displays blank screen.
   
9. Limited search facilities Not fixed
   No option to search for post made by user (usefull for moderation or even ordinary reply - to see other posts by this user and estimate his level of experience).
   No advanced search allowing to filter posts by keywords with wildcards in topic title, posts, user name, time range, limit of posts numbers, sorting...
   
10. Slow, slow, slow!  Not fixed
    Loading the posts and topics is slow, not to mention this ugly and disturbing incremental fetching. Especially with IE slow and consuming lots of memory, released only when all browser instances are closed. There seems to be too much scripting on the client side.
    
11. Hang ups, scrolls out of user control Fixed
    See 5.
    
12. Inconsistent behaviour of keyboard interface  Fixed 
    When scrolling posts, cursor movement keys sometimes respond, sometimes don't respons (you have to click with mouse first to make cursor movement keys functional). You have to click always after you open topic.
     
13. Keyboard cursor control in edit window Improved, almost OK
    Sometimes I cannot control cursor with cursor keys when writing in edit window - cursor moves and then "crashes" at some invisible barrier - I have to either use mouse or "take a detour" around this barrier with cursor keys. I think it's still there, at least sometimes.
    Page Up and Down keys move the cursor up and down over the edge of editing window, text does not scroll to follow the position of cursor. Very stupid bug - Fixed in Chrome, still some problems in IE.
    
14. Skinnig layout and look & feel of the forum - Fixed
    It would be nice to have Panoramio forum skinned to colours and visual style of Panoramio, but this is last thing on my mind now.
    
    
    Update 25.4.2012:
15. Inserting images is not easy - Improved
    Drag and drop is fine, inserting URL simplified. Still hard to manipulate larger images (edit window is too small - see b4). URL parser shall be more greedy to accept "photo pages", at least pages from Panoramio like  http://www.panoramio.com/photo/70907610 and extract relevant content. See how it is done on Facebook. ;-)
16. Moving Topic (moderatros) - Not fixed
    Moderators need to have tools for moving the whole topic from one forum area to another. And to move (split) posts from one topic to another (within or even outside original forum area)
17. Editing topic title (moderators) - Not fixed
    Moderators shall have ability to change topic title

d) Misc

I think moderators need some guide and hints how to moderate in new forum. I am confused now - despite I think I am quite experienced user.

 

e) Great features, improvements

Now user can use common keybord shorcuts for text formating when writing posts (Ctrl+B for bold, Ctrl+I for italic). Great...  But enough?

 

Conclusion 

To be positive - none of the problems mentioned above is "fatal" and all can be fixed.

Problem is - problems are in the core of Groups and I guess - Panoramio has only little influence on these bugs or poorly designed features removal.

And there are too much bugs to call the horse healthy.

 

I'd rather use conservatively configured standard phpBB forum, even on separate web  site domain, with different account and login outside Google than this. Google Groups were usable for specific purposes, but after their upgrade in the end of 2010 - beginning of 2011 groups lost some good features and got bugs and cluttered interface. The horse was dead from the beginning, I think.

 

From user perspective, pros of forum upgrade (Ctrl+B, Ctrl+I) are not in balance with downgrade.

 

Well - horse is still breathing, but riding this almost dead horse is no fun.

Update 25.4.2012: 

Many bug fixed, forum is now much, much more usable than "beta" version.

But there is still many annoying bugs and features we are missing  (slow performance, scrolling, small edit box, lack of some moderator tools).