The Grand Experimeint - Lets Define it
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JenniferD
Jan 19, 2009, 12:19:08 PM1/19/09
to ozymandias
Hi All-
I want to get this thread started because I think we are losing
focus. Or maybe just disagreeing, I don't know. Lets define what we
are doing here.
The idea is to experiment with publishing, yes? What exactly is the
experiment and what is it's purpose?
I've been thinking of starting this thread,and I just read Malinda's
post, so I wanted to get it started. I'll have more to say later, but
for now here is this.
I don’t think that what Malinda is referring to in the 'Karina's idea'
thread is what we talked about in the beginning, nor do I think it is
a done deal. It is just talk at this point.
I disagree that the collective/coop would not be beneficial or
attractive to ‘established’ authors. In fact I would say that Nicola
is an established author. I think she has described herself as a mid-
list author in the past, and I think that is a category of people that
could benefit from this endeavor a great deal.
The experiment is, I think to look at new avenues for publishing.
Many current authors could benefit from this because ‘publishing is
broken.’ http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/07/short-story-collection-cold-hard.html
This is not just for new authors/artists.
I can think of several reasons why even best selling authors might
want to join in. And I see no reason to exclude any ‘big names’ who
want to join in – it could only help us IMO.
Malinda, I am very sorry to hear of your decision. I hope that you
will re-consider or at least hang around and see what develops here;
it may turn out to be something you still feel like participating in.
Maybe we should all go back and re-read a couple of Nicola’s posts on
this matter:
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-have-dream.html
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/publishing-permaculture-vs-slash-and.html
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/11/whoa-scary-publishing-news.html
And then lets talk some more.
Jennifer
I want to get this thread started because I think we are losing
focus. Or maybe just disagreeing, I don't know. Lets define what we
are doing here.
The idea is to experiment with publishing, yes? What exactly is the
experiment and what is it's purpose?
I've been thinking of starting this thread,and I just read Malinda's
post, so I wanted to get it started. I'll have more to say later, but
for now here is this.
I don’t think that what Malinda is referring to in the 'Karina's idea'
thread is what we talked about in the beginning, nor do I think it is
a done deal. It is just talk at this point.
I disagree that the collective/coop would not be beneficial or
attractive to ‘established’ authors. In fact I would say that Nicola
is an established author. I think she has described herself as a mid-
list author in the past, and I think that is a category of people that
could benefit from this endeavor a great deal.
The experiment is, I think to look at new avenues for publishing.
Many current authors could benefit from this because ‘publishing is
broken.’ http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/07/short-story-collection-cold-hard.html
This is not just for new authors/artists.
I can think of several reasons why even best selling authors might
want to join in. And I see no reason to exclude any ‘big names’ who
want to join in – it could only help us IMO.
Malinda, I am very sorry to hear of your decision. I hope that you
will re-consider or at least hang around and see what develops here;
it may turn out to be something you still feel like participating in.
Maybe we should all go back and re-read a couple of Nicola’s posts on
this matter:
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-have-dream.html
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/publishing-permaculture-vs-slash-and.html
http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/11/whoa-scary-publishing-news.html
And then lets talk some more.
Jennifer
malinda
Jan 19, 2009, 8:04:24 PM1/19/09
to ozymandias
Hi Jennifer,
Thanks for encouraging me to stay. I would love to, but I think it's
just unrealistic for me right now from a time management perspective.
I feel like for this to work, it requires a full commitment, and it's
a big deal. I can't do that right now, and I don't like doing things
halfway. Why else would I be a fan of Nicola's books? :) I will be
very interested to see how it goes, though.
Malinda
Thanks for encouraging me to stay. I would love to, but I think it's
just unrealistic for me right now from a time management perspective.
I feel like for this to work, it requires a full commitment, and it's
a big deal. I can't do that right now, and I don't like doing things
halfway. Why else would I be a fan of Nicola's books? :) I will be
very interested to see how it goes, though.
Malinda
JenniferD
Jan 19, 2009, 8:47:25 PM1/19/09
to ozymandias
Hi Malinda --
I certainly understand the time thing - and the halfway thing too. :)
I think a lot of us have issues with that as well (I know I do). We'll
have to work that out somehow.
Maybe there will be a time when you'll be in a place to jump back in
or participate in some way.
I'll be looking for "Ash."
Jennifer
I certainly understand the time thing - and the halfway thing too. :)
I think a lot of us have issues with that as well (I know I do). We'll
have to work that out somehow.
Maybe there will be a time when you'll be in a place to jump back in
or participate in some way.
I'll be looking for "Ash."
Jennifer
Adam Lowe
Jan 19, 2009, 11:23:59 PM1/19/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
To be honest, there are that many of us you'll be okay without making
much of a commitment. Trust me, it's easier than you think.
--
Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com
Regards
Adam Lowe
Features Editor
Bent [http://mag.bent.com]
Editor-in-Chief
Polluto [http://www.polluto.com]
Publisher/Editor
Dog Horn Publishing [http://www.doghornpublishing.com]
Mobile: +44 (0) 7906 242 232
Office: +44 (0) 113 279 3573
If you would like to stop receiving these emails, please reply with
UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject.
much of a commitment. Trust me, it's easier than you think.
Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com
Regards
Adam Lowe
Features Editor
Bent [http://mag.bent.com]
Editor-in-Chief
Polluto [http://www.polluto.com]
Publisher/Editor
Dog Horn Publishing [http://www.doghornpublishing.com]
Mobile: +44 (0) 7906 242 232
Office: +44 (0) 113 279 3573
If you would like to stop receiving these emails, please reply with
UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject.
nicola griffith
Jan 20, 2009, 12:41:58 AM1/20/09
to ozymandias
I don't think we're losing focus; I think we're refining it. This is
just like writing a novel or creating a TV series: there's a point
where there are too many choices, where everything appears to be
disassembled, strewn in pieces across the table. It looks hopelessly
broken. It's not. It's just part of the process. You have to break
the story before you can put it together.
Karina suggested splitting the co-op in two, each focusing on
different arenas. I don't think we should do that just yet: not until
we know what our story is, not until we know what we're aiming for,
what our goal is. That goal will influence everything, including how
money and decisions are handled.
Once we get going, we'll probably have to break into groups following
our areas of expertise: creative content, production, distribution,
marketing, (and possibly membership). These groups will, of course,
overlap. But to separate now, before we have clear goals, before we
have our story sorted, could, in my opinion, lead to confusion and
discord in the future. I'd rather have the muddle happen now.
So here are my current thoughts (with lots of input from Kelley). I
got into this to test publishing, to test the integrative output part--
the production/marketing/distribution, and who has control--not the
input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing access to new
writers is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of
what we do, because this is one of the ways I think publishing could
improve, but it's not a priority for me at the moment.
I'm leaning towards a two-stage approach: a swift test project and a
longer term grand vision project.
All pilot projects get screwed up to some degree (it's kind of the
point of having them--to learn), so I think it would be best to start
with stuff that's been published before. I think we should work our
contacts and get reprint stories and poems from the biggest names of
all genres we can reach--Stephen King, Ursula Le Guin, Dorothy
Allison, Mark Doty, Jonathan Lethem, Neil Gaiman, Laurell K. Hamilton--
and publish them. We contact these writers and tell them we'll
publish whatever they send (therefore cutting out the submission/
editing process, saving time and energy). We pitch it as a grand
experiment, and ask them to do it for free for the joy of it (though
we could probably work out a way to raise enough money to offer each a
token fee such as $100, if we had to). Then we run a simple website
encouraging art in response: music, illustrations, whatever. At the
same time, of course, we bring into play our fabby new marketing lab
(which might involve vids, and a Book Crossing kind of thing, readings
with music, podcasts etc. etc. as part of the publicity effort) to
sell the anthology.
We take what we learn from the pilot project and then formulate our
grand shared vision, something along the lines of the Iliad or The
World: The End or whatever.
If we wanted to get fancy for the test project, we could solicit
illustrations to go with the stories--but this will delay everything,
so it depends on everyone's sense of timing.
At this point I'd like to solicit some specific responses.
Distribution people: could you sell this into bookstores? Marketing
people: would anyone care? Publishing generalists and commentators:
would this project be a fair test of our systems? Others: would you
have fun tinkering with and word-of-mouthing this project as a start?
Everyone: what amazing opportunities and/or obvious pitfalls have I
missed? And do you agree, or not, on the focus on output rather than
input, for now?
I'd also like those who haven't introduced themselves to do so. It
needn't be elaborate, but we're about to get serious, I think, and I'd
like to know who I'm dealing with. So please, at a minimum, give us
your full name. In addition, I'd prefer that we not create another
zillion conversational threads at this time. Let's focus on this one,
getting the vision sorted, and the introductions.
Nicola
On Jan 19, 9:19 am, JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com> wrote:
> Hi All-
>
> I want to get this thread started because I think we are losing
> focus. Or maybe just disagreeing, I don't know. Lets define what we
> are doing here.
>
> The idea is to experiment with publishing, yes? What exactly is the
> experiment and what is it's purpose?
>
> I've been thinking of starting this thread,and I just read Malinda's
> post, so I wanted to get it started. I'll have more to say later, but
> for now here is this.
>
> I don’t think that what Malinda is referring to in the 'Karina's idea'
> thread is what we talked about in the beginning, nor do I think it is
> a done deal. It is just talk at this point.
>
> I disagree that the collective/coop would not be beneficial or
> attractive to ‘established’ authors. In fact I would say that Nicola
> is an established author. I think she has described herself as a mid-
> list author in the past, and I think that is a category of people that
> could benefit from this endeavor a great deal.
>
> The experiment is, I think to look at new avenues for publishing.
> Many current authors could benefit from this because ‘publishing is
> broken.’ http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/07/short-story-collection-cold-har...
just like writing a novel or creating a TV series: there's a point
where there are too many choices, where everything appears to be
disassembled, strewn in pieces across the table. It looks hopelessly
broken. It's not. It's just part of the process. You have to break
the story before you can put it together.
Karina suggested splitting the co-op in two, each focusing on
different arenas. I don't think we should do that just yet: not until
we know what our story is, not until we know what we're aiming for,
what our goal is. That goal will influence everything, including how
money and decisions are handled.
Once we get going, we'll probably have to break into groups following
our areas of expertise: creative content, production, distribution,
marketing, (and possibly membership). These groups will, of course,
overlap. But to separate now, before we have clear goals, before we
have our story sorted, could, in my opinion, lead to confusion and
discord in the future. I'd rather have the muddle happen now.
So here are my current thoughts (with lots of input from Kelley). I
got into this to test publishing, to test the integrative output part--
the production/marketing/distribution, and who has control--not the
input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing access to new
writers is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of
what we do, because this is one of the ways I think publishing could
improve, but it's not a priority for me at the moment.
I'm leaning towards a two-stage approach: a swift test project and a
longer term grand vision project.
All pilot projects get screwed up to some degree (it's kind of the
point of having them--to learn), so I think it would be best to start
with stuff that's been published before. I think we should work our
contacts and get reprint stories and poems from the biggest names of
all genres we can reach--Stephen King, Ursula Le Guin, Dorothy
Allison, Mark Doty, Jonathan Lethem, Neil Gaiman, Laurell K. Hamilton--
and publish them. We contact these writers and tell them we'll
publish whatever they send (therefore cutting out the submission/
editing process, saving time and energy). We pitch it as a grand
experiment, and ask them to do it for free for the joy of it (though
we could probably work out a way to raise enough money to offer each a
token fee such as $100, if we had to). Then we run a simple website
encouraging art in response: music, illustrations, whatever. At the
same time, of course, we bring into play our fabby new marketing lab
(which might involve vids, and a Book Crossing kind of thing, readings
with music, podcasts etc. etc. as part of the publicity effort) to
sell the anthology.
We take what we learn from the pilot project and then formulate our
grand shared vision, something along the lines of the Iliad or The
World: The End or whatever.
If we wanted to get fancy for the test project, we could solicit
illustrations to go with the stories--but this will delay everything,
so it depends on everyone's sense of timing.
At this point I'd like to solicit some specific responses.
Distribution people: could you sell this into bookstores? Marketing
people: would anyone care? Publishing generalists and commentators:
would this project be a fair test of our systems? Others: would you
have fun tinkering with and word-of-mouthing this project as a start?
Everyone: what amazing opportunities and/or obvious pitfalls have I
missed? And do you agree, or not, on the focus on output rather than
input, for now?
I'd also like those who haven't introduced themselves to do so. It
needn't be elaborate, but we're about to get serious, I think, and I'd
like to know who I'm dealing with. So please, at a minimum, give us
your full name. In addition, I'd prefer that we not create another
zillion conversational threads at this time. Let's focus on this one,
getting the vision sorted, and the introductions.
Nicola
On Jan 19, 9:19 am, JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com> wrote:
> Hi All-
>
> I want to get this thread started because I think we are losing
> focus. Or maybe just disagreeing, I don't know. Lets define what we
> are doing here.
>
> The idea is to experiment with publishing, yes? What exactly is the
> experiment and what is it's purpose?
>
> I've been thinking of starting this thread,and I just read Malinda's
> post, so I wanted to get it started. I'll have more to say later, but
> for now here is this.
>
> I don’t think that what Malinda is referring to in the 'Karina's idea'
> thread is what we talked about in the beginning, nor do I think it is
> a done deal. It is just talk at this point.
>
> I disagree that the collective/coop would not be beneficial or
> attractive to ‘established’ authors. In fact I would say that Nicola
> is an established author. I think she has described herself as a mid-
> list author in the past, and I think that is a category of people that
> could benefit from this endeavor a great deal.
>
> The experiment is, I think to look at new avenues for publishing.
> Many current authors could benefit from this because ‘publishing is
> This is not just for new authors/artists.
>
> I can think of several reasons why even best selling authors might
> want to join in. And I see no reason to exclude any ‘big names’ who
> want to join in – it could only help us IMO.
>
> Malinda, I am very sorry to hear of your decision. I hope that you
> will re-consider or at least hang around and see what develops here;
> it may turn out to be something you still feel like participating in.
>
> Maybe we should all go back and re-read a couple of Nicola’s posts on
> this matter:http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-have-dream.htmlhttp://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/publishing-permaculture-vs-slas...http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/11/whoa-scary-publishing-news.html
>
> I can think of several reasons why even best selling authors might
> want to join in. And I see no reason to exclude any ‘big names’ who
> want to join in – it could only help us IMO.
>
> Malinda, I am very sorry to hear of your decision. I hope that you
> will re-consider or at least hang around and see what develops here;
> it may turn out to be something you still feel like participating in.
>
> Maybe we should all go back and re-read a couple of Nicola’s posts on
mord...@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2009, 12:54:32 PM1/20/09
to ozymandias
Oh I should also mention that my diary is mordicai.livejournal.com
Distro wise: are we going to cleave to Ingram/Baker & Taylor/etc? If
we want to be distributed in bookstores, I think that is the way to
go.
> > this matter:http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-have-dream.htmlhttp://asknico...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Distro wise: are we going to cleave to Ingram/Baker & Taylor/etc? If
we want to be distributed in bookstores, I think that is the way to
go.
>
> > And then lets talk some more.
>
> > Jennifer- Hide quoted text -
> > And then lets talk some more.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
JenniferD
Jan 20, 2009, 2:01:50 PM1/20/09
to ozymandias
I think the two stage approach is the way to go. That all sounds good
to me. And you and Kelley would put in your stories too, I hope
Nicola? Not only would it be good to have this group represented, but
it might also help when contacting those people if they know that you
are willing to be in it as well.
Jennifer
> > this matter:http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2008/12/i-have-dream.htmlhttp://asknico...
to me. And you and Kelley would put in your stories too, I hope
Nicola? Not only would it be good to have this group represented, but
it might also help when contacting those people if they know that you
are willing to be in it as well.
Jennifer
nicola griffith
Jan 20, 2009, 2:25:15 PM1/20/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Well, I'd certainly be happy to offer a story. But those details--who and how--are for later, after we've decided it's a good idea. So I'm waiting to hear from people if everyone thinks it will work.
N--
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com
N
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com
Realmcovet
Jan 20, 2009, 2:44:11 PM1/20/09
to ozymandias
I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I've no problem "word-of-
mouthing" whatever you'd like me to word-of mouth.
> --www.nicolagriffith.comhttp://asknicola.blogspot.com- Hide quoted text -
mouthing" whatever you'd like me to word-of mouth.
Karina Melendez
Jan 20, 2009, 3:56:18 PM1/20/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
"I got into this to test publishing, to test the integrative output part--the production/marketing/distribution, and who has control--not the input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing access to new writers is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of what we do, because this is one of the ways I think publishing could improve, but it's not a priority for me at the moment."
I agree, that is also why I'm here. Thank you for making it clear. I was worried new writers would feel discouraged. So I have another idea for those who want to write for this experiment: fanfiction as part of our marketing tools. More on that later.
The benefits of getting reprint stories and poems from the Biggest Names of all genres, as I see them, are mainly that:
- We'll get great content at little or no cost.
- We'll have a product ready to go in no time.
- We may get some great word-of-mouth promotion through those Big Names. I imagine their blogs have visitor stats at least in the thousands per day.
The drawbacks I can think of:
- There are many such anthologies.
- The readership we may have gained through the Big Names will most likely already own or have read the reprinted stories.
- I keep hearing that this and that anthology will no longer be produced this year, so I imagine they don't do very well in the market.
Points to consider:
- Themed anthologies seem to do better than "Best of ____" ones.
- Previously unpublished stories by Big Names are gold.
Would authors be interested in taking a higher royalty percentage as compensation, plus the token whatever we can pay them for submissions? We could still offer to publish anything they submit, provided it hasn't been published before and goes with the theme of the anthology. Maybe I'm asking for too much.
If we take off with the Big Name project---which I like, even in spite of the concerns I've listed above---then all the creatives work as part of the marketing team, either directly by helping create book covers, etc. plus targeted/planned advertising pieces, or on their own by producing fanfiction stories around the main anthology, graphic novels, illustrations, vids, photo narrative---all to be showcased on the co-op/collective's website.
karina
I agree, that is also why I'm here. Thank you for making it clear. I was worried new writers would feel discouraged. So I have another idea for those who want to write for this experiment: fanfiction as part of our marketing tools. More on that later.
The benefits of getting reprint stories and poems from the Biggest Names of all genres, as I see them, are mainly that:
- We'll get great content at little or no cost.
- We'll have a product ready to go in no time.
- We may get some great word-of-mouth promotion through those Big Names. I imagine their blogs have visitor stats at least in the thousands per day.
The drawbacks I can think of:
- There are many such anthologies.
- The readership we may have gained through the Big Names will most likely already own or have read the reprinted stories.
- I keep hearing that this and that anthology will no longer be produced this year, so I imagine they don't do very well in the market.
Points to consider:
- Themed anthologies seem to do better than "Best of ____" ones.
- Previously unpublished stories by Big Names are gold.
Would authors be interested in taking a higher royalty percentage as compensation, plus the token whatever we can pay them for submissions? We could still offer to publish anything they submit, provided it hasn't been published before and goes with the theme of the anthology. Maybe I'm asking for too much.
If we take off with the Big Name project---which I like, even in spite of the concerns I've listed above---then all the creatives work as part of the marketing team, either directly by helping create book covers, etc. plus targeted/planned advertising pieces, or on their own by producing fanfiction stories around the main anthology, graphic novels, illustrations, vids, photo narrative---all to be showcased on the co-op/collective's website.
karina
JenniferD
Jan 20, 2009, 5:35:24 PM1/20/09
to ozymandias
I like the theme aspect. I think it would be more interesting to read
and easier to focus the marketing. That's my guess anyway. Of course
it might be harder to get the stories together.
Jennifer
On Jan 20, 12:56 pm, Karina Melendez <simula...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *"I got into this to test publishing, to test the integrative output
and easier to focus the marketing. That's my guess anyway. Of course
it might be harder to get the stories together.
Jennifer
On Jan 20, 12:56 pm, Karina Melendez <simula...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *"I got into this to test publishing, to test the integrative output
> part--the production/marketing/distribution, and who has control--not the
> input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing access to new writers
> is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of what we do,
> because this is one of the ways I think publishing could improve, but it's
> not a priority for me at the moment."*
> input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing access to new writers
> is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of what we do,
> because this is one of the ways I think publishing could improve, but it's
Adam Lowe
Jan 20, 2009, 5:40:48 PM1/20/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
You'd be surprised, Jennifer. I've done themes as varied as 'Post-natal Depression & the Mysterons', 'Sex in the Time of VHS' and 'A Steampunk Orange' for Polluto and always had hundreds of submissions. People either write stories from scratch or adapt stories they've already written.
--
2009/1/20 JenniferD <in...@jenniferdurham.com>
--
JenniferD
Jan 20, 2009, 10:35:25 PM1/20/09
to ozymandias
Well, you would know more about that stuff than me Adam.
But you didn't comment on Nicola's email. Does this mean you are in
agreement that this will work?
Jennifer
On Jan 20, 2:40 pm, "Adam Lowe" <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You'd be surprised, Jennifer. I've done themes as varied as 'Post-natal
> Depression & the Mysterons', 'Sex in the Time of VHS' and 'A Steampunk
> Orange' for Polluto and always had hundreds of submissions. People either
> write stories from scratch or adapt stories they've already written.
>
> 2009/1/20 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
But you didn't comment on Nicola's email. Does this mean you are in
agreement that this will work?
Jennifer
On Jan 20, 2:40 pm, "Adam Lowe" <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You'd be surprised, Jennifer. I've done themes as varied as 'Post-natal
> Depression & the Mysterons', 'Sex in the Time of VHS' and 'A Steampunk
> Orange' for Polluto and always had hundreds of submissions. People either
> write stories from scratch or adapt stories they've already written.
>
Adam Lowe
Jan 20, 2009, 10:37:19 PM1/20/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Kat Meyer
Jan 21, 2009, 9:35:34 AM1/21/09
to ozymandias
I prefer that we don't split off into two groups just yet, for a few
reasons, but among them - marketing people being involved from the
onset of creation is not a BAD thing. It's my thinking that art and
marketing are not at odds, but can inform one another quite nicely
when given the chance. The delivery model of a website (with all it's
lovely low-cost/high-production value possibilities) is, in my
opinion, the bee's knees.
I'm also liking the idea of soliciting from established authors - but
with, of course, a mix of the not so well known. My concerns here stem
from the well-deserved criticisms of sites such as redroom.com, where
the big names were trotted out as a lure to the web-reading audience
AND the author members, but not much attention was given to the lesser
known authors as a result. And a huge factor in this - there was no
communication (allowed?) encouraged between the two groups (it's just
wrong to even suggest they are two groups, but...) of authors - famous
and not yet so.
I would really like to see a way to have some big names and some
growing names meet and mingle in this storytelling project.
And, I'm in. (i guess that was what you were asking, right? in or out?
"In Ozymandias you are either IN or OUT!" Kat is IN!
Happy first day A.O. everyone :)
> 2009/1/21 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
reasons, but among them - marketing people being involved from the
onset of creation is not a BAD thing. It's my thinking that art and
marketing are not at odds, but can inform one another quite nicely
when given the chance. The delivery model of a website (with all it's
lovely low-cost/high-production value possibilities) is, in my
opinion, the bee's knees.
I'm also liking the idea of soliciting from established authors - but
with, of course, a mix of the not so well known. My concerns here stem
from the well-deserved criticisms of sites such as redroom.com, where
the big names were trotted out as a lure to the web-reading audience
AND the author members, but not much attention was given to the lesser
known authors as a result. And a huge factor in this - there was no
communication (allowed?) encouraged between the two groups (it's just
wrong to even suggest they are two groups, but...) of authors - famous
and not yet so.
I would really like to see a way to have some big names and some
growing names meet and mingle in this storytelling project.
And, I'm in. (i guess that was what you were asking, right? in or out?
"In Ozymandias you are either IN or OUT!" Kat is IN!
Happy first day A.O. everyone :)
> 2009/1/21 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
Kat Meyer
Jan 21, 2009, 12:17:35 PM1/21/09
to ozymandias
p.s. - this website: http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx - The
Concrete Jungle Book - is incredibly interesting and i haven't
explored too thoroughly, but hell's yeah it looks like a good take on
new/experimental publishing model.
Concrete Jungle Book - is incredibly interesting and i haven't
explored too thoroughly, but hell's yeah it looks like a good take on
new/experimental publishing model.
Adam Lowe
Jan 21, 2009, 7:30:11 PM1/21/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Yes, I share your reservations, Kat. But I think, from discussing this earlier, that's not something to worry about. I think we will have a decent balance of new/established writers to keep this project afloat.
2009/1/21 Kat Meyer <kat...@gmail.com>
Adam Lowe
Jan 21, 2009, 7:55:03 PM1/21/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
BTW, another example of experimentation is the prose game Mappalujo: http://www.mappalujo.com/.
Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result is rather breathtaking! One of my favourite novels (his Vurt) was remixed as a comic here: http://www.leeoconnor.com/vurt_cover.htm. I just love the way he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if we were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even stranger emerging.
Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result is rather breathtaking! One of my favourite novels (his Vurt) was remixed as a comic here: http://www.leeoconnor.com/vurt_cover.htm. I just love the way he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if we were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even stranger emerging.
2009/1/22 Adam Lowe <bey...@gmail.com>
mord...@gmail.com
Jan 22, 2009, 10:16:00 AM1/22/09
to ozymandias
Oh I <3 Jeff Noon in a big way.
Actually-- that brings up an interesting point-- graphic novels are
hot, & buyers for graphic novels are smart(er) at picking up from
small presses, since they have personal involvement. That could be
something to consider.
On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW, another example of experimentation is the prose game *Mappalujo*:http://www.mappalujo.com/.
>
> >> p.s. - this website:http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx- The
> UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject.- Hide quoted text -
Actually-- that brings up an interesting point-- graphic novels are
hot, & buyers for graphic novels are smart(er) at picking up from
small presses, since they have personal involvement. That could be
something to consider.
On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW, another example of experimentation is the prose game *Mappalujo*:http://www.mappalujo.com/.
>
> Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too
> dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result is
> rather breathtaking! One of my favourite novels (his *Vurt*) was remixed as
> Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too
> dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result is
> a comic here:http://www.leeoconnor.com/vurt_cover.htm. I just love the way
> he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if we
> were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even stranger
> emerging.
>
> 2009/1/22 Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com>
> he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if we
> were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even stranger
> emerging.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, I share your reservations, Kat. But I think, from discussing this
> > earlier, that's not something to worry about. I think we will have a decent
> > balance of new/established writers to keep this project afloat.
>
> > 2009/1/21 Kat Meyer <katj...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes, I share your reservations, Kat. But I think, from discussing this
> > earlier, that's not something to worry about. I think we will have a decent
> > balance of new/established writers to keep this project afloat.
>
>
> >> p.s. - this website:http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx- The
Adam Lowe
Jan 22, 2009, 2:16:48 PM1/22/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
2009/1/22 mord...@gmail.com <mord...@gmail.com>
Realmcovet
Jan 22, 2009, 2:44:40 PM1/22/09
to ozymandias
Hey Adam,
Funny you mention Southland Tales, as I was going to mention it too.
Loved the movie, didn't get to read the graphic novels though, phooey.
I really like the "Vurt" link you put out, as well as the Mapplujo
one. So along the lines of what I dare to dream up in this head o'
mine. Really love the whole idea of the "illustronovella" bit too. Oh
how I heart prose, graphic novels and story book element all mixed
into one. *squeaks*
On Jan 22, 1:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
> 2009/1/22 mordi...@gmail.com <mordi...@gmail.com>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Funny you mention Southland Tales, as I was going to mention it too.
Loved the movie, didn't get to read the graphic novels though, phooey.
I really like the "Vurt" link you put out, as well as the Mapplujo
one. So along the lines of what I dare to dream up in this head o'
mine. Really love the whole idea of the "illustronovella" bit too. Oh
how I heart prose, graphic novels and story book element all mixed
into one. *squeaks*
On Jan 22, 1:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Adam Lowe
Jan 22, 2009, 2:59:56 PM1/22/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
That was the original plan for Trog Rose too, but the artists decided they couldn't do comic panels, so wanted to stick to just illustrations. They also wanted to cut back their involvement to 30 pages of art, until I asked for 50.
If you like that idea, and the Mappalujo thing, we could maybe use my Ozymandias idea (see Ozymandias thread) and somehow work it into a writing game like Noon's. Maybe work in some modern retellings or riffs on that original poem.
If you like that idea, and the Mappalujo thing, we could maybe use my Ozymandias idea (see Ozymandias thread) and somehow work it into a writing game like Noon's. Maybe work in some modern retellings or riffs on that original poem.
2009/1/22 Realmcovet <rchl...@yahoo.com>
Realmcovet
Jan 22, 2009, 6:22:59 PM1/22/09
to ozymandias
Yes, I just read that thread. I think that would be awesome, course,
we have to see what others feel about this too, but I really vibe with
this! :)
On Jan 22, 1:59 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That was the original plan for Trog Rose too, but the artists decided they
> couldn't do comic panels, so wanted to stick to just illustrations. They
> also wanted to cut back their involvement to 30 pages of art, until I asked
> for 50.
>
> If you like that idea, and the Mappalujo thing, we could maybe use my
> Ozymandias idea (see Ozymandias thread) and somehow work it into a writing
> game like Noon's. Maybe work in some modern retellings or riffs on that
> original poem.
>
> 2009/1/22 Realmcovet <rchl_t...@yahoo.com>
we have to see what others feel about this too, but I really vibe with
this! :)
On Jan 22, 1:59 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That was the original plan for Trog Rose too, but the artists decided they
> couldn't do comic panels, so wanted to stick to just illustrations. They
> also wanted to cut back their involvement to 30 pages of art, until I asked
> for 50.
>
> If you like that idea, and the Mappalujo thing, we could maybe use my
> Ozymandias idea (see Ozymandias thread) and somehow work it into a writing
> game like Noon's. Maybe work in some modern retellings or riffs on that
> original poem.
>
Adam Lowe
Jan 22, 2009, 6:27:23 PM1/22/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Well it just seems that if we want to establish ourselves, what better way than to dedicate a load of multimedia/interdisciplinary work that delves into our very name and refines and defines who we, as a coop, are, whilst letting us have a little fun.
2009/1/22 Realmcovet <rchl...@yahoo.com>
mord...@gmail.com
Jan 23, 2009, 9:04:54 AM1/23/09
to ozymandias
Adam, you are speaking my language-- I am a big booster of Southland
tales! I ordered the graphic novel but never got around to reading
it. I should-- thanks for the reminder.
Anyhow-- ideas are great, but now I'm starting to feel like without
discussing numbers & realities we are treading water. What kind of
publishing platform are we going to use? I'm talking machines here--
I mean, do we want to piggyback on Lulu's print-on-demand? Blub?
Shop it out to a third party printer that other small presses use? I
don't know anything about that world.
What kind of laydown & distro are we talking about?
Do we have a webmaster in the house? We could make some inroads
there?
I DO know a very small publisher-- he owns the Art Squared imprint-- I
should see if he's interested.
On Jan 22, 2:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
> 2009/1/22 mordi...@gmail.com <mordi...@gmail.com>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
tales! I ordered the graphic novel but never got around to reading
it. I should-- thanks for the reminder.
Anyhow-- ideas are great, but now I'm starting to feel like without
discussing numbers & realities we are treading water. What kind of
publishing platform are we going to use? I'm talking machines here--
I mean, do we want to piggyback on Lulu's print-on-demand? Blub?
Shop it out to a third party printer that other small presses use? I
don't know anything about that world.
What kind of laydown & distro are we talking about?
Do we have a webmaster in the house? We could make some inroads
there?
I DO know a very small publisher-- he owns the Art Squared imprint-- I
should see if he's interested.
On Jan 22, 2:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Adam Lowe
Jan 23, 2009, 9:20:41 AM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
For printing, here are the options that spring to mind:
The thing to bear in mind is that the unit price has to be equal to or less than {cover price - [60% + postage + warehousing + other costs]}. A traditional formula is:
COVER PRICE = per unit print cost * 5
However, with POD and digital printing, this often results in books that cost £10/$20. If we can keep postage, warehousing and additional costs down, we can keep costs at the standard price ranges of £6.99/$13.99-£7.99/$15.99. Also note that the weakened pound makes printing with Biddles more preferrable because a $13.99 book is now nearer £9.99 rather than £6.99. That gives us the leeway of producing books at £2/unit. With Biddles' Publishers' Choice package that's easily feasible (a 144pp B&W book is about £1.75, I think).
Obviously I'm working more in GBP than USD.
- CreateSpace offer the cheapest POD service, and they're owned by Amazon which means we get automatically listed as 'in stock' on Amazon.
- BookSurge are much the same, but they'll only work with publishers with 25+ titles, I think.
- Lightning Source offer distribution via Ingrams, but since every other POD publisher uses Ingrams too, we'd need more than just LSI as the printers to get noticed.
- Green Button (US) will publish quality paperbacks rather cheaply on their digital presses with print runs at a minimum of 20 copies. They also do free warehousing and will drop ship at a small cost.
- MPG Biddles (UK) offer a similar service to Green Button with even better print quality, but require a minimum print run of 100 copies. They fix the per-unit cost price forever and supply hardbacks at only £1 extra per copy than the paperback versions. They work with York Publishing for warehousing and dropshipping, although there is a slight charge for this service.
- Antony Rowe are another excellent POD service, although they charge slightly higher set-up fees than some of the other POD companies. Their print quality is unrivalled in POD, however, and Lulu use them for all their colour print work in the UK.
- Lulu.com is easy and efficient, except where colour books or hardbacks are concerned. However, Lulu titles are not automatically listed as 'in stock' on Amazon and unless we can offer 55-60% discount to Amazon, will not be a viable option for sale on their website (discount for Amazon Advantage is 55% in the US and 60% in the UK and elsewhere, plus we have to pay shipping).
The thing to bear in mind is that the unit price has to be equal to or less than {cover price - [60% + postage + warehousing + other costs]}. A traditional formula is:
COVER PRICE = per unit print cost * 5
However, with POD and digital printing, this often results in books that cost £10/$20. If we can keep postage, warehousing and additional costs down, we can keep costs at the standard price ranges of £6.99/$13.99-£7.99/$15.99. Also note that the weakened pound makes printing with Biddles more preferrable because a $13.99 book is now nearer £9.99 rather than £6.99. That gives us the leeway of producing books at £2/unit. With Biddles' Publishers' Choice package that's easily feasible (a 144pp B&W book is about £1.75, I think).
Obviously I'm working more in GBP than USD.
2009/1/23 mord...@gmail.com <mord...@gmail.com>
Leela
Jan 23, 2009, 10:02:26 AM1/23/09
to ozymandias
> I don't think we're losing focus; I think we're refining it. This is
> just like writing a novel or creating a TV series: there's a point
> where there are too many choices, where everything appears to be
> disassembled, strewn in pieces across the table. It looks hopelessly
> broken. It's not. It's just part of the process. You have to break
> the story before you can put it together.
Truth. In order for this to work I think we all need a higher-than-
> just like writing a novel or creating a TV series: there's a point
> where there are too many choices, where everything appears to be
> disassembled, strewn in pieces across the table. It looks hopelessly
> broken. It's not. It's just part of the process. You have to break
> the story before you can put it together.
average tolerance for periodic chaos. I'm watching the chaos cloud
distill into a handful of conversations:
- do we split or stay together
- what should our content be, with progressively more interest in
making it marketable
- what should our delivery be, with increasing influence on the
content
Here's my take:
1) I agree with Nicola, that we should hang on until we have a common
vision. If we split before we have a vision, our visions are likely
to develop differently (like taking a newly committed couple and
sending one of them overseas for three years).
2) I like to write, but marketing a new concept will work better if we
work with people who already have a following. We could use
webcomics, we could use established print authors, but whoever they
are, they should have some high potential of getting people online if
our delivery is going to rely on the web in any way. It occurs to me
that we might pick a subcultural group to target, since there are
built in word-of-mouth distribution methods there. SciFi or RPG or
rennies or...some existing group that has regular gatherings and a
substantial web presence and a habit of liking the little guys.
Anything new and cool is likely to get moving faster in a group that's
already connected to each other and to the web. Even knitters have a
large online presence (check out Ravelry.com) that catches on fast,
but the older the web presence, the more likely we are to succeed.
3) I like the idea of online interactive collaboration tied to
whatever we produce, and multiple media for the central Thing we're
making. The idea of soliciting short stories from big names and then
encouraging response art (and conversation?) sounds good. But what
makes it different? What makes it new? The simple web tie-in isn't
enough to be called creative. Another thought on production and
distribution: e-readers are becoming really common (including Plastic
Logic's thin-and-light version, due out in 2010). I wonder if we
could get a Thing, or a sample of our Thing, bundled with some new e-
reader distribution as part of our marketing? I guess the basic
question I see is this: are we primarily trying to get ourselves into
print publishing, or are we trying to get words out there in whatever
form works?
--or both?
Leela
Leela
Jan 23, 2009, 10:14:09 AM1/23/09
to ozymandias
<snipped great rundown of POD services and a conclusion that considers
how to make a book profitable and get it listed on amazon.com from
Adam Lowe>
I would offer that even if profit is important, it may not be an
option if we're launching something new and different. If
OzPublishing (or whatever we are) gets a name and a reputation for
doing interesting things, we'll be well-positioned. But I'm not sure
that we're going to do more than break even. I also think that
warehousing and distribution is HUGE amounts of work (and postage, and
space) and that we should seriously consider focusing on the
development end and leaving the actual volumes in the hands of an
outfit like Lulu--letting them POD and ship directly to people.
Listing on Amazon is a good thing, but are we trying to plug into the
existing distribution, or do something different? One of my major
concerns in the US is how much control major booksellers have over
what gets published, based on what they're willing to distribute or
what they charge for distribution. If we want to change publishing I
think we need to get outside the major distribution channels in order
to help open things up for small/controversial/experimental work.
Things that are relatively mainstream (like an anthology of known spec
fic authors) are necessary to get people used to the idea of new forms
of advertising and delivery so that the unusual stuff has a system to
use.
We are trying to do SOMETHING new. There are several areas to be new
in:
1) content
2) medium
3) distribution
I'm thinking we need to pick one, maybe two, but stick with standards
on the third. Obviously my bias is against distribution, but there
are good arguments for any of them.
Leela
how to make a book profitable and get it listed on amazon.com from
Adam Lowe>
I would offer that even if profit is important, it may not be an
option if we're launching something new and different. If
OzPublishing (or whatever we are) gets a name and a reputation for
doing interesting things, we'll be well-positioned. But I'm not sure
that we're going to do more than break even. I also think that
warehousing and distribution is HUGE amounts of work (and postage, and
space) and that we should seriously consider focusing on the
development end and leaving the actual volumes in the hands of an
outfit like Lulu--letting them POD and ship directly to people.
Listing on Amazon is a good thing, but are we trying to plug into the
existing distribution, or do something different? One of my major
concerns in the US is how much control major booksellers have over
what gets published, based on what they're willing to distribute or
what they charge for distribution. If we want to change publishing I
think we need to get outside the major distribution channels in order
to help open things up for small/controversial/experimental work.
Things that are relatively mainstream (like an anthology of known spec
fic authors) are necessary to get people used to the idea of new forms
of advertising and delivery so that the unusual stuff has a system to
use.
We are trying to do SOMETHING new. There are several areas to be new
in:
1) content
2) medium
3) distribution
I'm thinking we need to pick one, maybe two, but stick with standards
on the third. Obviously my bias is against distribution, but there
are good arguments for any of them.
Leela
Adam Lowe
Jan 23, 2009, 10:20:45 AM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Well . . . we needn't be profitable, but I think it's in everyone's interests to at least attempt, at this point, not to run at a huge loss. Not appearing on Amazon greatly reduces our stature and will have at least a 10% negative effect on sales. At this stage, we shouldn't be accepting that off the bat.
Another option is to actually print with a number of printers. Setting up titles with Lulu.com is free, and we'd easily be able to list the same POD title with Antony Rowe, CreateSpace and BookSurge for very little cost. That at least gives readers various choices in where to buy the book and makes it more accessible. Listing it with LSI too would also give us limited bookstore distribution, but because LSI titles require a barcode page at the back of the book, I think that would require the LSI edition having a separate ISBN because it would count as alternative content to the other editions. Otherwise, the Lulu, Antony Rowe, CreateSpace and BookSurge editions will all look pretty much identical.
Cheers
Another option is to actually print with a number of printers. Setting up titles with Lulu.com is free, and we'd easily be able to list the same POD title with Antony Rowe, CreateSpace and BookSurge for very little cost. That at least gives readers various choices in where to buy the book and makes it more accessible. Listing it with LSI too would also give us limited bookstore distribution, but because LSI titles require a barcode page at the back of the book, I think that would require the LSI edition having a separate ISBN because it would count as alternative content to the other editions. Otherwise, the Lulu, Antony Rowe, CreateSpace and BookSurge editions will all look pretty much identical.
Cheers
2009/1/23 Leela <ell...@gmail.com>
Leela
Jan 23, 2009, 10:40:30 AM1/23/09
to ozymandias
On Jan 23, 10:20 am, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well . . . we needn't be profitable, but I think it's in everyone's
> interests to at least attempt, at this point, not to run at a huge loss.
Agreed.
> Well . . . we needn't be profitable, but I think it's in everyone's
> interests to at least attempt, at this point, not to run at a huge loss.
> Not
> appearing on Amazon greatly reduces our stature and will have at least a 10%
> negative effect on sales. At this stage, we shouldn't be accepting that off
> the bat.
Lulu, or would they also apply for the other publishers? I'm not
averse to using Amazon, but I do want to lift up the problems of
buying into a flawed distribution system. If there's a better way,
I'd prefer it, but that which works, works.
Leela
Adam Lowe
Jan 23, 2009, 11:12:15 AM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Well Amazon ALWAYS demand 55%-60% discount from cover price. The only way round it is printing copies with an Amazon owned/affiliated POD press, such as BookSurge or CreateSpace. They will then print the books at their own cost price and pay us any difference between that and their sale price, if any. However, they usually set a minimum retail price for you, so you can't cut the books down below their profit margin. It's another benefit of making the books available through multiple channels.
2009/1/23 Leela <ell...@gmail.com>
nicola griffith
Jan 23, 2009, 8:08:21 PM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Great info and good discussion, everyone, but my original email still stands.
<<We take what we learn from the pilot project and then formulate our
grand shared vision, something along the lines of the Iliad or The
World: The End or whatever.
<<If we wanted to get fancy for the test project, we could solicit
illustrations to go with the stories--but this will delay everything,
so it depends on everyone's sense of timing.
<<At this point I'd like to solicit some specific responses.
Distribution people: could you sell this into bookstores? Marketing
people: would anyone care? Publishing generalists and commentators:
would this project be a fair test of our systems? Others: would you
have fun tinkering with and word-of-mouthing this project as a start?
Everyone: what amazing opportunities and/or obvious pitfalls have I
missed? And do you agree, or not, on the focus on output rather than
input, for now?
<<I'd also like those who haven't introduced themselves to do so. It
needn't be elaborate, but we're about to get serious, I think, and I'd
like to know who I'm dealing with. So please, at a minimum, give us
your full name. In addition, I'd prefer that we not create another
zillion conversational threads at this time. Let's focus on this one,
getting the vision sorted, and the introductions.
I still need a few intros, and I need real names. If you haven't done so, please introduce yourself (please don't start a new thread, just respond to the introductions thread). You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009.
From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak clearly, on this thread. You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009.
IThe info about printing etc is interesting but, as we still don't know exactly what we'll be printing (trim size, length, b&w or colour, print run etc. etc.), probably not the most efficient use of our time.
I believe in our coop. I think we have some fabulous people here. I think we can make it work. But we need to be clear. We need to be focused. We need to be timely.
Please speak by Wednesday 28th.
Nicola
<<I'm leaning towards a two-stage approach: a swift test project and a
longer term grand vision project.
<<All pilot projects get screwed up to some degree (it's kind of the
point of having them--to learn), so I think it would be best to start
with stuff that's been published before. I think we should work our
contacts and get reprint stories and poems from the biggest names of
all genres we can reach--Stephen King, Ursula Le Guin, Dorothy
Allison, Mark Doty, Jonathan Lethem, Neil Gaiman, Laurell K. Hamilton--
and publish them. We contact these writers and tell them we'll
publish whatever they send (therefore cutting out the submission/
editing process, saving time and energy). We pitch it as a grand
experiment, and ask them to do it for free for the joy of it (though
we could probably work out a way to raise enough money to offer each a
token fee such as $100, if we had to).
longer term grand vision project.
<<All pilot projects get screwed up to some degree (it's kind of the
point of having them--to learn), so I think it would be best to start
with stuff that's been published before. I think we should work our
contacts and get reprint stories and poems from the biggest names of
all genres we can reach--Stephen King, Ursula Le Guin, Dorothy
Allison, Mark Doty, Jonathan Lethem, Neil Gaiman, Laurell K. Hamilton--
and publish them. We contact these writers and tell them we'll
publish whatever they send (therefore cutting out the submission/
editing process, saving time and energy). We pitch it as a grand
experiment, and ask them to do it for free for the joy of it (though
we could probably work out a way to raise enough money to offer each a
token fee such as $100, if we had to).
<snip>
<<We take what we learn from the pilot project and then formulate our
grand shared vision, something along the lines of the Iliad or The
World: The End or whatever.
<<If we wanted to get fancy for the test project, we could solicit
illustrations to go with the stories--but this will delay everything,
so it depends on everyone's sense of timing.
<<At this point I'd like to solicit some specific responses.
Distribution people: could you sell this into bookstores? Marketing
people: would anyone care? Publishing generalists and commentators:
would this project be a fair test of our systems? Others: would you
have fun tinkering with and word-of-mouthing this project as a start?
Everyone: what amazing opportunities and/or obvious pitfalls have I
missed? And do you agree, or not, on the focus on output rather than
input, for now?
<<I'd also like those who haven't introduced themselves to do so. It
needn't be elaborate, but we're about to get serious, I think, and I'd
like to know who I'm dealing with. So please, at a minimum, give us
your full name. In addition, I'd prefer that we not create another
zillion conversational threads at this time. Let's focus on this one,
getting the vision sorted, and the introductions.
I still need a few intros, and I need real names. If you haven't done so, please introduce yourself (please don't start a new thread, just respond to the introductions thread). You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009.
From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak clearly, on this thread. You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009.
IThe info about printing etc is interesting but, as we still don't know exactly what we'll be printing (trim size, length, b&w or colour, print run etc. etc.), probably not the most efficient use of our time.
I believe in our coop. I think we have some fabulous people here. I think we can make it work. But we need to be clear. We need to be focused. We need to be timely.
Please speak by Wednesday 28th.
Nicola
Kelley Eskridge
Jan 23, 2009, 8:10:36 PM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I'm in, and the test project works fine for me.
K
Karina Melendez
Jan 23, 2009, 8:22:00 PM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I'm also in, and willing to do my best to get the Big-Name project Out There for the world to experience.
Stephanie Trelogan
Jan 23, 2009, 8:28:41 PM1/23/09
to ozymandias
I'm in, too. And I fully embrace the idea of the swift test project. I
vote to include illustrations, but if others feel that will delay
things too much, then I bow to the will of the many.
I agree that focusing on output at this stage makes the most sense. If
this test project runs relatively smoothly, then we'll be primed for
the next project. If we encounter roadblocks, we'll learn how to avoid
them in phase two. If it's a complete disaster, then we can review our
mistakes and decide what to do next.
I'm not sure exactly what category I fall into: marketing or other,
probably. As I said in my introduction, I'm happy to take on whatever
needs to be done that can be accomplished in bite-sized chunks. I
don't want to hold everything up if one of my kids gets the flu; I
think momentum is important. But I very much want to be a part of this
co-op. I believe in Nicola's vision, and I believe that this group can
make it a reality.
- Stephanie
vote to include illustrations, but if others feel that will delay
things too much, then I bow to the will of the many.
I agree that focusing on output at this stage makes the most sense. If
this test project runs relatively smoothly, then we'll be primed for
the next project. If we encounter roadblocks, we'll learn how to avoid
them in phase two. If it's a complete disaster, then we can review our
mistakes and decide what to do next.
I'm not sure exactly what category I fall into: marketing or other,
probably. As I said in my introduction, I'm happy to take on whatever
needs to be done that can be accomplished in bite-sized chunks. I
don't want to hold everything up if one of my kids gets the flu; I
think momentum is important. But I very much want to be a part of this
co-op. I believe in Nicola's vision, and I believe that this group can
make it a reality.
- Stephanie
Jeremy H. Griffith
Jan 23, 2009, 10:24:11 PM1/23/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:10:36 -0800, Kelley Eskridge
<kel...@kelleyeskridge.com> wrote:
<kel...@kelleyeskridge.com> wrote:
>I'm in, and the test project works fine for me.
+1. ;-)
-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
<jer...@omsys.com> http://www.omsys.com/
Adam Lowe
Jan 24, 2009, 7:17:09 AM1/24/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
Realmcovet
Jan 24, 2009, 10:15:57 AM1/24/09
to ozymandias
I'm in, don't know what I can offer, but I'm in for whatever you may
need me for. I can stand naked outside with an Ozymandias sign wrapped
around my body if you like. Whatever it takes!
> the introductions thread). *You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009*.
need me for. I can stand naked outside with an Ozymandias sign wrapped
around my body if you like. Whatever it takes!
>
> From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test
> project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and
> fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined
> above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or
> no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak
> clearly, on this thread. *You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009*.
> From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test
> project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and
> fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined
> above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or
> no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak
mord...@gmail.com
Jan 24, 2009, 12:45:36 PM1/24/09
to ozymandias
Sure, I'm in.
> the introductions thread). *You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009*.
>
> From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test
> project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and
> fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined
> above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or
> no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak
> clearly, on this thread. *You have until Wednesday 28th January 2009*.
> From everyone who introduces themselves, I need an answer on the test
> project. Bear in mind this isn't a project to establish our brilliance and
> fabulousness, it's to test the systems. Will the project I've outlined
> above work for you (can you sell it, will you work with us on it): yes or
> no? Sadly, I can't read minds. Anyone who wants to play must speak
Bear aka HNU
Jan 25, 2009, 9:54:32 AM1/25/09
to ozymandias
I'm in too, of course.
So... What kind of stories do we want from our "established names"
pals?
Or do we wait until the 28th before starting to discuss these things?
Bear
So... What kind of stories do we want from our "established names"
pals?
Or do we wait until the 28th before starting to discuss these things?
Bear
Janine Galeski
Jan 26, 2009, 1:10:06 PM1/26/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I'm in.--
Do I want to be complete, or am I completing myself in the journey?
Do I want to be complete, or am I completing myself in the journey?
Leela
Jan 26, 2009, 6:22:34 PM1/26/09
to ozymandias
I'm in, I can do some word-of-mouth and cyberpromotion; the other
things I'm good at are not marketing, and it looks like that's where
we're starting, but I'll do other stuff if it becomes clear that I
have other useful talents.
I think we ended up discussing printing as a sideline from trying to
figure out what the project on the table IS. From what I'm seeing
here, it's a print anthology of reprints by big name authors, yes?
I'll support the work of the group; if we're doing print, let's do
print, and let's do it as brilliantly as we can.
Nicola, what are some of the problems with the existing print
publication system that we're trying to address, other than "authors
make a frightfully small percentage on each book"?
things I'm good at are not marketing, and it looks like that's where
we're starting, but I'll do other stuff if it becomes clear that I
have other useful talents.
I think we ended up discussing printing as a sideline from trying to
figure out what the project on the table IS. From what I'm seeing
here, it's a print anthology of reprints by big name authors, yes?
I'll support the work of the group; if we're doing print, let's do
print, and let's do it as brilliantly as we can.
Nicola, what are some of the problems with the existing print
publication system that we're trying to address, other than "authors
make a frightfully small percentage on each book"?
nicola griffith
Jan 29, 2009, 3:41:43 PM1/29/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I think the author/creator/s percentage will take care of itself--given that we may well turn into a virtual publisher with v. little overhead. I think one of the most ripe for experimentation parts of publishing is not the supply, not the distribution, but the demand. We need to increase reader demand, and one way to do that is by increasing reader awareness: let them know there *is* a fabulous product. Let them know by showing them the physical object, by playing them music, running vids and book trailers, by getting reviews, putting on events, building a metaverse, by word-of-mouth.
I can't tell you how many times I've had email or f2f conversations with readers who are fans who are surprised--no, shocked--to discover I have a new book out. They are interested in my work, yet they didn't know it was out there. There are hundreds and thousands, possibly millions, of readers in this country (I can't begin to guess about the world), who aren't been reached. That's one of the things I want to address.
That's the part that excites me.
How about everyone else?
Nicola
--
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com
I can't tell you how many times I've had email or f2f conversations with readers who are fans who are surprised--no, shocked--to discover I have a new book out. They are interested in my work, yet they didn't know it was out there. There are hundreds and thousands, possibly millions, of readers in this country (I can't begin to guess about the world), who aren't been reached. That's one of the things I want to address.
That's the part that excites me.
How about everyone else?
Nicola
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Leela <ell...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nicola, what are some of the problems with the existing print
publication system that we're trying to address, other than "authors
make a frightfully small percentage on each book"?
www.nicolagriffith.com
http://asknicola.blogspot.com
Realmcovet
Jan 29, 2009, 4:37:13 PM1/29/09
to ozymandias
Nicola,
I agree with you. That is indeed the part that excites me most as
well. We need creative ways to expose one another. I am currently in
the process of getting exposure out there for all of the amazing
talent on board here via my blog, and while I don't get nearly as many
hits on my page as the rest of you may, I do get readers that receive
a lot of exposure on their own page, and would absolutely LOVE you all
to pieces. So I'm willing and able to do whatever it takes to talk up
whatever needs talking up. First on my list? You, Nicola, and your
works. Then Kelley, then Jennifer Durham, Karina, Adam, and so on and
so forth. Everyone here is amazing!!!
You are right when you say that there are so many people out there
that just have no idea about any of what is going on out there, what
is available at their fingertips, due to lack of exposure. Increasing
that exposure indeed means increasing the demand, done in an
exceptionally original way.
Cheers,
Rachel (Realm)
On Jan 29, 2:41 pm, nicola griffith <gemae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the author/creator/s percentage will take care of itself--given that
> we may well turn into a virtual publisher with v. little overhead. I think
> one of the most ripe for experimentation parts of publishing is not the
> supply, not the distribution, but the demand. We need to increase reader
> demand, and one way to do that is by increasing reader awareness: let them
> know there *is* a fabulous product. Let them know by showing them the
> physical object, by playing them music, running vids and book trailers, by
> getting reviews, putting on events, building a metaverse, by word-of-mouth.
>
> I can't tell you how many times I've had email or f2f conversations with
> readers who are fans who are surprised--no, shocked--to discover I have a
> new book out. They are interested in my work, yet they didn't know it was
> out there. There are hundreds and thousands, possibly millions, of readers
> in this country (I can't begin to guess about the world), who aren't been
> reached. That's one of the things I want to address.
>
> That's the part that excites me.
>
> How about everyone else?
>
> Nicola
>
I agree with you. That is indeed the part that excites me most as
well. We need creative ways to expose one another. I am currently in
the process of getting exposure out there for all of the amazing
talent on board here via my blog, and while I don't get nearly as many
hits on my page as the rest of you may, I do get readers that receive
a lot of exposure on their own page, and would absolutely LOVE you all
to pieces. So I'm willing and able to do whatever it takes to talk up
whatever needs talking up. First on my list? You, Nicola, and your
works. Then Kelley, then Jennifer Durham, Karina, Adam, and so on and
so forth. Everyone here is amazing!!!
You are right when you say that there are so many people out there
that just have no idea about any of what is going on out there, what
is available at their fingertips, due to lack of exposure. Increasing
that exposure indeed means increasing the demand, done in an
exceptionally original way.
Cheers,
Rachel (Realm)
On Jan 29, 2:41 pm, nicola griffith <gemae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the author/creator/s percentage will take care of itself--given that
> we may well turn into a virtual publisher with v. little overhead. I think
> one of the most ripe for experimentation parts of publishing is not the
> supply, not the distribution, but the demand. We need to increase reader
> demand, and one way to do that is by increasing reader awareness: let them
> know there *is* a fabulous product. Let them know by showing them the
> physical object, by playing them music, running vids and book trailers, by
> getting reviews, putting on events, building a metaverse, by word-of-mouth.
>
> I can't tell you how many times I've had email or f2f conversations with
> readers who are fans who are surprised--no, shocked--to discover I have a
> new book out. They are interested in my work, yet they didn't know it was
> out there. There are hundreds and thousands, possibly millions, of readers
> in this country (I can't begin to guess about the world), who aren't been
> reached. That's one of the things I want to address.
>
> That's the part that excites me.
>
> How about everyone else?
>
> Nicola
>
Leela
Jan 30, 2009, 9:19:53 AM1/30/09
to ozymandias
Hi, everyone,
If you threw your hat in the ring here and HAVE NOT posted an
introduction to the Introductions thread as Nicola requested, please
do so. You can check by going to the "administrative details" thread
and seeing if you're one of the 18 names on the list. If not, we
don't know who you are. We're trying to give some shape to this
project, so stand up and be counted! Since the admin thread is for
summaries of information already known, please don't post your intro
there; post your intro in the intro thread. I'll update the admin
thread later.
Thank you. :)
Leela
(Realmcovet/Rachel, I don't remember your name. Are you on there?)
If you threw your hat in the ring here and HAVE NOT posted an
introduction to the Introductions thread as Nicola requested, please
do so. You can check by going to the "administrative details" thread
and seeing if you're one of the 18 names on the list. If not, we
don't know who you are. We're trying to give some shape to this
project, so stand up and be counted! Since the admin thread is for
summaries of information already known, please don't post your intro
there; post your intro in the intro thread. I'll update the admin
thread later.
Thank you. :)
Leela
(Realmcovet/Rachel, I don't remember your name. Are you on there?)
Leela
Jan 30, 2009, 9:23:17 AM1/30/09
to ozymandias
So I'm seeing creative marketing and publicity for print publishing.
Is that our focus for now? It could be really fun. :)
...and did I see some kind of consensus or majority vote for the
famous authors anthology idea? Are we done discussing what the first
project we develop and market will be?
Leela
Is that our focus for now? It could be really fun. :)
...and did I see some kind of consensus or majority vote for the
famous authors anthology idea? Are we done discussing what the first
project we develop and market will be?
Leela
JenniferD
Jan 31, 2009, 3:29:22 PM1/31/09
to ozymandias
I think we are done discussing what it will be. Nicola asked for a
people to weigh in (vote) on whether they would agree to moving
forward with the anthology. I haven't seen any dissenters.
Let's move on.
Jennifer
people to weigh in (vote) on whether they would agree to moving
forward with the anthology. I haven't seen any dissenters.
Let's move on.
Jennifer
Karina Melendez
Jan 31, 2009, 3:56:25 PM1/31/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I agree. We can move on to pitching in some Big Names we'd like to see in the anthology.
Janine Galeski
Jan 31, 2009, 4:34:38 PM1/31/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I heartily agree with Karina and Jennifer.
This is fantastic.
This is fantastic.
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Karina Melendez <simu...@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree. We can move on to pitching in some Big Names we'd like to see in the anthology.
Realmcovet
Jan 31, 2009, 4:45:51 PM1/31/09
to ozymandias
Yes. Sounds great.
Rachel
On Jan 31, 3:34 pm, Janine Galeski <kivaroc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I heartily agree with Karina and Jennifer.
> This is fantastic.
>
Rachel
On Jan 31, 3:34 pm, Janine Galeski <kivaroc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I heartily agree with Karina and Jennifer.
> This is fantastic.
>
Adam Lowe
Jan 31, 2009, 10:00:19 PM1/31/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
JenniferD
Feb 1, 2009, 9:36:56 PM2/1/09
to ozymandias
I don't think Lulu or Blurb make since financially do they? They are
great for super small runs, but I'm not sure about for this type of
thing.
I'm wondering about a theme for the anthology. Maybe once we see who
we may be able to ask, we can see a way to go with that... Or maybe
we should be talking about a theme. If we are going to have one even.
Jennifer
On Jan 23, 6:04 am, "mordi...@gmail.com" <mordi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Adam, you are speaking my language-- I am a big booster of Southland
> tales! I ordered the graphic novel but never got around to reading
> it. I should-- thanks for the reminder.
>
> Anyhow-- ideas are great, but now I'm starting to feel like without
> discussing numbers & realities we are treading water. What kind of
> publishing platform are we going to use? I'm talking machines here--
> I mean, do we want to piggyback on Lulu's print-on-demand? Blub?
> Shop it out to a third party printer that other small presses use? I
> don't know anything about that world.
>
> What kind of laydown & distro are we talking about?
>
> Do we have a webmaster in the house? We could make some inroads
> there?
>
> I DO know a very small publisher-- he owns the Art Squared imprint-- I
> should see if he's interested.
>
> On Jan 22, 2:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> > wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> > in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> > Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> > invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> > story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> > to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> > authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
> > 2009/1/22 mordi...@gmail.com <mordi...@gmail.com>
>
> > > Oh I <3 Jeff Noon in a big way.
>
> > > Actually-- that brings up an interesting point-- graphic novels are
> > > hot, & buyers for graphic novels are smart(er) at picking up from
> > > small presses, since they have personal involvement. That could be
> > > something to consider.
>
> > > On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > BTW, another example of experimentation is the prose game *Mappalujo*:
> > >http://www.mappalujo.com/.
>
> > > > Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too
> > > > dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result
> > > is
> > > > rather breathtaking! One of my favourite novels (his *Vurt*) was remixed
> > > as
> > > > a comic here:http://www.leeoconnor.com/vurt_cover.htm. I just love the
> > > way
> > > > he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if
> > > we
> > > > were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even
> > > stranger
> > > > emerging.
>
> > > > 2009/1/22 Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > > Yes, I share your reservations, Kat. But I think, from discussing this
> > > > > earlier, that's not something to worry about. I think we will have a
> > > decent
> > > > > balance of new/established writers to keep this project afloat.
>
> > > > > 2009/1/21 Kat Meyer <katj...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > >> p.s. - this website:http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx-The
> > > > >> Concrete Jungle Book - is incredibly interesting and i haven't
> > > > >> explored too thoroughly, but hell's yeah it looks like a good take on
> > > > >> new/experimental publishing model.
>
> > > > >> On Jan 21, 7:35 am, Kat Meyer <katj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > I prefer that we don't split off into two groups just yet, for a few
> > > > >> > reasons, but among them - marketing people being involved from the
> > > > >> > onset of creation is not a BAD thing. It's my thinking that art and
> > > > >> > marketing are not at odds, but can inform one another quite nicely
> > > > >> > when given the chance. The delivery model of a website (with all
> > > it's
> > > > >> > lovely low-cost/high-production value possibilities) is, in my
> > > > >> > opinion, the bee's knees.
> > > > >> > I'm also liking the idea of soliciting from established authors -
> > > but
> > > > >> > with, of course, a mix of the not so well known. My concerns here
> > > stem
> > > > >> > from the well-deserved criticisms of sites such as redroom.com,
> > > where
> > > > >> > the big names were trotted out as a lure to the web-reading audience
> > > > >> > AND the author members, but not much attention was given to the
> > > lesser
> > > > >> > known authors as a result. And a huge factor in this - there was no
> > > > >> > communication (allowed?) encouraged between the two groups (it's
> > > just
> > > > >> > wrong to even suggest they are two groups, but...) of authors -
> > > famous
> > > > >> > and not yet so.
> > > > >> > I would really like to see a way to have some big names and some
> > > > >> > growing names meet and mingle in this storytelling project.
>
> > > > >> > And, I'm in. (i guess that was what you were asking, right? in or
> > > out?
> > > > >> > "In Ozymandias you are either IN or OUT!" Kat is IN!
>
> > > > >> > Happy first day A.O. everyone :)
>
> > > > >> > On Jan 20, 8:37 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > Yes, I think it will work ;)
>
> > > > >> > > 2009/1/21 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
>
> > > > >> > > > Well, you would know more about that stuff than me Adam.
>
> > > > >> > > > But you didn't comment on Nicola's email. Does this mean you
> > > are in
> > > > >> > > > agreement that this will work?
>
> > > > >> > > > Jennifer
>
> > > > >> > > > On Jan 20, 2:40 pm, "Adam Lowe" <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > You'd be surprised, Jennifer. I've done themes as varied as
> > > > >> 'Post-natal
> > > > >> > > > > Depression & the Mysterons', 'Sex in the Time of VHS' and 'A
> > > > >> Steampunk
> > > > >> > > > > Orange' for Polluto and always had hundreds of submissions.
> > > People
> > > > >> either
> > > > >> > > > > write stories from scratch or adapt stories they've already
> > > > >> written.
>
> > > > >> > > > > 2009/1/20 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
>
> > > > >> > > > > > I like the theme aspect. I think it would be more
> > > interesting
> > > > >> to read
> > > > >> > > > > > and easier to focus the marketing. That's my guess anyway.
> > > Of
> > > > >> course
> > > > >> > > > > > it might be harder to get the stories together.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Jennifer
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 20, 12:56 pm, Karina Melendez <simula...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > *"I got into this to test publishing, to test the
> > > integrative
> > > > >> output
> > > > >> > > > > > > part--the production/marketing/distribution, and who has
> > > > >> control--not
> > > > >> > > > the
> > > > >> > > > > > > input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing
> > > access to
> > > > >> new
> > > > >> > > > > > writers
> > > > >> > > > > > > is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of
> > > what
> > > > >> we do,
> > > > >> > > > > > > because this is one of the ways I think publishing could
> > > > >> improve, but
> > > > >> > > > > > it's
> > > > >> > > > > > > not a priority for me at the moment."*
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > I agree, that is also why I'm here. Thank you for making
> > > it
> > > > >> clear. I
> > > > >> > > > was
> > > > >> > > > > > > worried new writers would feel discouraged. So I have
> > > another
> > > > >> idea
> > > > >> > > > for
> > > > >> > > > > > those
> > > > >> > > > > > > who want to write for this experiment: fanfiction as part
> > > of
> > > > >> our
> > > > >> > > > > > marketing
> > > > >> > > > > > > tools. More on that later.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > The benefits of getting reprint stories and poems from the
> > > > >> Biggest
> > > > >> > > > Names
> > > > >> > > > > > of
> > > > >> > > > > > > all genres, as I see them, are mainly that:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We'll get great content at little or no cost.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We'll have a product ready to go in no time.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We may get some great word-of-mouth promotion through
> > > those
> > > > >> Big
> > > > >> > > > Names.
> > > > >> > > > > > I
> > > > >> > > > > > > imagine their blogs have visitor stats at least in the
> > > > >> thousands per
> > > > >> > > > day.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > The drawbacks I can think of:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - There are many such anthologies.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - The readership we may have gained through the Big Names
> > > will
> > > > >> most
> > > > >> > > > > > likely
> > > > >> > > > > > > already own or have read the reprinted stories.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - I keep hearing that this and that anthology will no
> > > longer
> > > > >> be
> > > > >> > > > produced
> > > > >> > > > > > > this year, so I imagine they don't do very well in the
> > > market.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Points to consider:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - Themed anthologies seem to do better than "Best of ____"
> > > > >> ones.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - Previously unpublished stories by Big Names are gold.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Would authors be interested in taking a higher royalty
> > > > >> percentage as
> > > > >> > > > > > > compensation, plus the token whatever we can pay them for
> > > > >> > > > submissions? We
> > > > >> > > > > > > could still offer to publish anything they submit,
> > > provided it
> > > > >> hasn't
> > > > >> > > > > > been
> > > > >> > > > > > > published before and goes with the theme of the anthology.
> > > > >> Maybe I'm
> > > > >> > > > > > asking
> > > > >> > > > > > > for too much.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > If we take off with the Big Name project---which I like,
> > > even
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > > > spite of
> > > > >> > > > > > > the concerns I've listed above---then all the creatives
> > > work
> > > > >> as part
> > > > >> > > > of
> > > > >> > > > > > the
> > > > >> > > > > > > marketing team, either directly by helping create book
> > > covers,
> > > > >> etc.
> > > > >> > > > plus
> > > > >> > > > > > > targeted/planned advertising pieces, or on their own by
> > > > >> producing
> > > > >> > > > > > fanfiction
> > > > >> > > > > > > stories around the main anthology, graphic novels,
> > > > >> illustrations,
> > > > >> > > > vids,
> > > > >> > > > > > > photo narrative---all to be showcased on the
> > > > >> co-op/collective's
> > > > >> > > > website.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > karina
>
> ...
>
> read more »
great for super small runs, but I'm not sure about for this type of
thing.
I'm wondering about a theme for the anthology. Maybe once we see who
we may be able to ask, we can see a way to go with that... Or maybe
we should be talking about a theme. If we are going to have one even.
Jennifer
On Jan 23, 6:04 am, "mordi...@gmail.com" <mordi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Adam, you are speaking my language-- I am a big booster of Southland
> tales! I ordered the graphic novel but never got around to reading
> it. I should-- thanks for the reminder.
>
> Anyhow-- ideas are great, but now I'm starting to feel like without
> discussing numbers & realities we are treading water. What kind of
> publishing platform are we going to use? I'm talking machines here--
> I mean, do we want to piggyback on Lulu's print-on-demand? Blub?
> Shop it out to a third party printer that other small presses use? I
> don't know anything about that world.
>
> What kind of laydown & distro are we talking about?
>
> Do we have a webmaster in the house? We could make some inroads
> there?
>
> I DO know a very small publisher-- he owns the Art Squared imprint-- I
> should see if he's interested.
>
> On Jan 22, 2:16 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you seen 'Southland Tales' by the guy who did Donnie Darko? He also
> > wrote a series of graphic novels and an online story to build on the story
> > in the film. I really like the multimedia nature of it.
>
> > Book-wise, there's also the genre called 'illustronovella', which GP Taylor
> > invented. It's basically a hybrid of a prose novel, a graphic novel and a
> > story book. It mixes comic panels, illustrations and traditional text prose
> > to tell its story. It also reminds me of the collage technique used by
> > authors such as Mark Z Danielewski and Kathy Acker.
>
> > 2009/1/22 mordi...@gmail.com <mordi...@gmail.com>
>
> > > Oh I <3 Jeff Noon in a big way.
>
> > > Actually-- that brings up an interesting point-- graphic novels are
> > > hot, & buyers for graphic novels are smart(er) at picking up from
> > > small presses, since they have personal involvement. That could be
> > > something to consider.
>
> > > On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > BTW, another example of experimentation is the prose game *Mappalujo*:
> > >http://www.mappalujo.com/.
>
> > > > Basically, dub fictioneer Jeff Noon and a friend played a game not too
> > > > dissimilar from Exquisite Corpse or other storytelling games. The result
> > > is
> > > > rather breathtaking! One of my favourite novels (his *Vurt*) was remixed
> > > as
> > > > a comic here:http://www.leeoconnor.com/vurt_cover.htm. I just love the
> > > way
> > > > he uses modern dance music to inform his writing sensibilities. Now, if
> > > we
> > > > were to somehow mix iTunes into that pot, there'd be something even
> > > stranger
> > > > emerging.
>
> > > > 2009/1/22 Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > > Yes, I share your reservations, Kat. But I think, from discussing this
> > > > > earlier, that's not something to worry about. I think we will have a
> > > decent
> > > > > balance of new/established writers to keep this project afloat.
>
> > > > > 2009/1/21 Kat Meyer <katj...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > >> p.s. - this website:http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx-The
> > > > >> Concrete Jungle Book - is incredibly interesting and i haven't
> > > > >> explored too thoroughly, but hell's yeah it looks like a good take on
> > > > >> new/experimental publishing model.
>
> > > > >> On Jan 21, 7:35 am, Kat Meyer <katj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > I prefer that we don't split off into two groups just yet, for a few
> > > > >> > reasons, but among them - marketing people being involved from the
> > > > >> > onset of creation is not a BAD thing. It's my thinking that art and
> > > > >> > marketing are not at odds, but can inform one another quite nicely
> > > > >> > when given the chance. The delivery model of a website (with all
> > > it's
> > > > >> > lovely low-cost/high-production value possibilities) is, in my
> > > > >> > opinion, the bee's knees.
> > > > >> > I'm also liking the idea of soliciting from established authors -
> > > but
> > > > >> > with, of course, a mix of the not so well known. My concerns here
> > > stem
> > > > >> > from the well-deserved criticisms of sites such as redroom.com,
> > > where
> > > > >> > the big names were trotted out as a lure to the web-reading audience
> > > > >> > AND the author members, but not much attention was given to the
> > > lesser
> > > > >> > known authors as a result. And a huge factor in this - there was no
> > > > >> > communication (allowed?) encouraged between the two groups (it's
> > > just
> > > > >> > wrong to even suggest they are two groups, but...) of authors -
> > > famous
> > > > >> > and not yet so.
> > > > >> > I would really like to see a way to have some big names and some
> > > > >> > growing names meet and mingle in this storytelling project.
>
> > > > >> > And, I'm in. (i guess that was what you were asking, right? in or
> > > out?
> > > > >> > "In Ozymandias you are either IN or OUT!" Kat is IN!
>
> > > > >> > Happy first day A.O. everyone :)
>
> > > > >> > On Jan 20, 8:37 pm, Adam Lowe <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > Yes, I think it will work ;)
>
> > > > >> > > 2009/1/21 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
>
> > > > >> > > > Well, you would know more about that stuff than me Adam.
>
> > > > >> > > > But you didn't comment on Nicola's email. Does this mean you
> > > are in
> > > > >> > > > agreement that this will work?
>
> > > > >> > > > Jennifer
>
> > > > >> > > > On Jan 20, 2:40 pm, "Adam Lowe" <beyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > You'd be surprised, Jennifer. I've done themes as varied as
> > > > >> 'Post-natal
> > > > >> > > > > Depression & the Mysterons', 'Sex in the Time of VHS' and 'A
> > > > >> Steampunk
> > > > >> > > > > Orange' for Polluto and always had hundreds of submissions.
> > > People
> > > > >> either
> > > > >> > > > > write stories from scratch or adapt stories they've already
> > > > >> written.
>
> > > > >> > > > > 2009/1/20 JenniferD <i...@jenniferdurham.com>
>
> > > > >> > > > > > I like the theme aspect. I think it would be more
> > > interesting
> > > > >> to read
> > > > >> > > > > > and easier to focus the marketing. That's my guess anyway.
> > > Of
> > > > >> course
> > > > >> > > > > > it might be harder to get the stories together.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > Jennifer
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 20, 12:56 pm, Karina Melendez <simula...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > > *"I got into this to test publishing, to test the
> > > integrative
> > > > >> output
> > > > >> > > > > > > part--the production/marketing/distribution, and who has
> > > > >> control--not
> > > > >> > > > the
> > > > >> > > > > > > input part, not the who-has-access stuff. Providing
> > > access to
> > > > >> new
> > > > >> > > > > > writers
> > > > >> > > > > > > is not my priority. I can see a future where it's part of
> > > what
> > > > >> we do,
> > > > >> > > > > > > because this is one of the ways I think publishing could
> > > > >> improve, but
> > > > >> > > > > > it's
> > > > >> > > > > > > not a priority for me at the moment."*
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > I agree, that is also why I'm here. Thank you for making
> > > it
> > > > >> clear. I
> > > > >> > > > was
> > > > >> > > > > > > worried new writers would feel discouraged. So I have
> > > another
> > > > >> idea
> > > > >> > > > for
> > > > >> > > > > > those
> > > > >> > > > > > > who want to write for this experiment: fanfiction as part
> > > of
> > > > >> our
> > > > >> > > > > > marketing
> > > > >> > > > > > > tools. More on that later.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > The benefits of getting reprint stories and poems from the
> > > > >> Biggest
> > > > >> > > > Names
> > > > >> > > > > > of
> > > > >> > > > > > > all genres, as I see them, are mainly that:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We'll get great content at little or no cost.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We'll have a product ready to go in no time.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - We may get some great word-of-mouth promotion through
> > > those
> > > > >> Big
> > > > >> > > > Names.
> > > > >> > > > > > I
> > > > >> > > > > > > imagine their blogs have visitor stats at least in the
> > > > >> thousands per
> > > > >> > > > day.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > The drawbacks I can think of:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - There are many such anthologies.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - The readership we may have gained through the Big Names
> > > will
> > > > >> most
> > > > >> > > > > > likely
> > > > >> > > > > > > already own or have read the reprinted stories.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - I keep hearing that this and that anthology will no
> > > longer
> > > > >> be
> > > > >> > > > produced
> > > > >> > > > > > > this year, so I imagine they don't do very well in the
> > > market.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Points to consider:
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > - Themed anthologies seem to do better than "Best of ____"
> > > > >> ones.
> > > > >> > > > > > > - Previously unpublished stories by Big Names are gold.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > Would authors be interested in taking a higher royalty
> > > > >> percentage as
> > > > >> > > > > > > compensation, plus the token whatever we can pay them for
> > > > >> > > > submissions? We
> > > > >> > > > > > > could still offer to publish anything they submit,
> > > provided it
> > > > >> hasn't
> > > > >> > > > > > been
> > > > >> > > > > > > published before and goes with the theme of the anthology.
> > > > >> Maybe I'm
> > > > >> > > > > > asking
> > > > >> > > > > > > for too much.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > If we take off with the Big Name project---which I like,
> > > even
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > > > spite of
> > > > >> > > > > > > the concerns I've listed above---then all the creatives
> > > work
> > > > >> as part
> > > > >> > > > of
> > > > >> > > > > > the
> > > > >> > > > > > > marketing team, either directly by helping create book
> > > covers,
> > > > >> etc.
> > > > >> > > > plus
> > > > >> > > > > > > targeted/planned advertising pieces, or on their own by
> > > > >> producing
> > > > >> > > > > > fanfiction
> > > > >> > > > > > > stories around the main anthology, graphic novels,
> > > > >> illustrations,
> > > > >> > > > vids,
> > > > >> > > > > > > photo narrative---all to be showcased on the
> > > > >> co-op/collective's
> > > > >> > > > website.
>
> > > > >> > > > > > > karina
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Jeremy H. Griffith
Feb 1, 2009, 11:30:22 PM2/1/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:08:21 -0800, nicola griffith
<gema...@gmail.com> wrote:
<gema...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We contact these writers and tell them we'll
>publish whatever they send (therefore cutting out the
>submission/editing process, saving time and energy).
... which Jennifer D. quoted in a post today. I have
serious reservations about that, for two reasons.
First, "publish whatever they send" means that there can
be *no* theme for the anthology. Why would anyone want
an anthology with no focus at all? I sure wouldn't.
The theme may be very broad, but it should be more than
"what came over the transom".
I think the broadest theme would be one related to women.
It might be the authors are all women (my own preference),
or the stories all have strong women protagonists (or
villains), or they all deal with issues of particular
interest to women. Another possible focus could be
"quiltbag". Or "end of the world", one of the other
proposals. But we need *some* focus, IMHO. I think
that's the next thing we need to define and agree on.
Second, cutting out "the submission/editing process"
also seems risky. Last year, I worked with an old friend,
J. Ruth Gendler, on her third book, published by Marlowe
(in New York, since bought). We went through a *lot*
of drafts. I'm a very good editor/proofer, and by the
time the final MS went in, I *knew* it was clean. So
I was shocked when Marlowe's copy editor found several
little glitches I (and Ruth, and her agent, and six
other readers, and the publisher's rep) had missed.
My point is that there is no such thing as an MS that
can be put out "as-is" to save time and energy. We
cannot afford to skimp on production; and when we do
need to fix things, the author needs to be in the loop.
If our first effort has typos and grammar errors, or
even just careless writing, we will not get the chance
to do a second.
Love and Light,
--Jeremy
Jeremy H. Griffith
Feb 2, 2009, 1:09:38 AM2/2/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:30:22 -0800, "Jeremy H. Griffith"
<jer...@omsys.com> wrote:
<jer...@omsys.com> wrote:
>Another possible focus could be "quiltbag".
When I wrote that, I didn't actually realize that Nicola
and Kelley had *invented* the term. A visit with Google
established that... the only references not to a fabric
bag were in Nicola's blog and Web site. ;-)
The earliest one was last year, at:
http://www.nicolagriffith.com/warmachine.html
And there were some things Kelley said there I'd like
to bring up:
>But then there’s queer. An interesting word. An expansive
>word. Queer is not a word that assumes everyone at the
>table is the same. Vive la difference, it says.
>
>I don’t call myself queer any more than I call myself
>lesbian, but I'm more and more prepared to think of what
>I write as queer. That's partly because queer functions
>as a meta-descriptor for me, the word itself implying
>relativity, fluidity, defiance of categories. I feel free
>to define it any way I want.
I love that! And not just because I self-identify as
queer, either (though I do). Kelley goes on:
>As a writer, I accept the definition of queer writing
>as writing that expresses culturally non-standard sexual
>activity and identity. But I'm coming more and more to
>see that queer embraces the subtle differences as well
>as the obvious ones. And I believe that queer writing is
>anything that extends and legitimates the possibilities
>of sexual and gender identity beyond the writer's personal
>comfort zone.
Is this the focus for our first project? Nicola ends:
>Art is fiction that is beautiful, appealing, of more
>than ordinary substance and cultural longevity. It
>speaks to us across time. If we assume that good
>fiction deconstructs cultural cliché by writing about
>individual, particular characters in individual,
>particular situations, and if we define as queer any
>fiction which destabilises the assumptions that underpin
>the construction of sexual identity, then all really
>good fiction whose particulars include reference to sex
>and gender can't be anything other than queer. ...
This resonates with me. Wouldn't a book titled "Queer"
make you want to pick it up, at least to see what it's
about? Even if you were straight? It wouldn't have to
be a redux of the lovely anthologies Nicola edited before
(SF, fantasy, horror). Using the expansive definitions
Kelley and Nicola give it above, it could be quite, ah,
"different"... ;-)
Any takers?
Love and Light,
--Jeremy
Adam Lowe
Feb 2, 2009, 8:21:09 AM2/2/09
to ozyma...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Jeremy. Proofing, editing and the whole submissions process is very important. Furthermore, even the greats write crap sometimes, so we can't just stick any old thing together and publish it. It's not simply a case of hitting the spellchecker and then sending it to the printer.
I'm not keen on the 'women' angle, as I'm more of a queer-identifying person, and I think gender categories like that are a little misleading. I wouldn't want to reify ostensible categories of 'womanhood' or gender roles, or whatever. The 'quiltbag' idea I do like, however.
As for Jennifer's reservation . . . a POD printer would be cost-effective if we're skipping the middle men. But it also depends what kind of sales we expect and how much we can invest. Offset printing is obviously much better, but we'd need $3,000 just to print 1,000 copies, and someone will have to warehouse the books, which can be costly. But if we're doing a 'tester' product first, do we really want to fork out that much if it might all go wrong?
I'm not keen on the 'women' angle, as I'm more of a queer-identifying person, and I think gender categories like that are a little misleading. I wouldn't want to reify ostensible categories of 'womanhood' or gender roles, or whatever. The 'quiltbag' idea I do like, however.
As for Jennifer's reservation . . . a POD printer would be cost-effective if we're skipping the middle men. But it also depends what kind of sales we expect and how much we can invest. Offset printing is obviously much better, but we'd need $3,000 just to print 1,000 copies, and someone will have to warehouse the books, which can be costly. But if we're doing a 'tester' product first, do we really want to fork out that much if it might all go wrong?
2009/2/2 Jeremy H. Griffith <jer...@omsys.com>
Leela
Feb 2, 2009, 8:51:41 AM2/2/09
to ozymandias
Okay, y'all,
so we have one decision: we're going with a "big names" anthology
and two subsequent discussions: what's the theme, and HOW do we
publish it. this thread seems to have run its original course, so I'm
going to start two new threads, one for each "leg" of this
conversation. Let's move the conversations to those threads.
Leela
so we have one decision: we're going with a "big names" anthology
and two subsequent discussions: what's the theme, and HOW do we
publish it. this thread seems to have run its original course, so I'm
going to start two new threads, one for each "leg" of this
conversation. Let's move the conversations to those threads.
Leela
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