Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Fiore, Steve
This is distressing. Given the numerous systems I've worked with in the past, I fail to see anything really unique in the system Elsevier just patented (at least based upon the diagram). Does this mean they're essentially "copyrighting" something that was already created (said with an ironic tone...). In all seriousness, the question is whether they'll now try to sue any journal that has already been using something similar, or any that develop a system that will, basically, just organize/automate aspects of the peer review system (like many conferences already do).
Best,
Steve
Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Online peer review system and method
An online document management system is disclosed. In one embodiment, the online document management system comprises: one or more editorial computers operated by one or more administrators or editors, the editorial computers send invitations and manage peer review of document submissions; one or more system computers, the system computers maintain journals, records of submitted documents and user profiles, and issue notifications; and one or more user computers; the user computers submit documents or revisions to the document management system; wherein one or more of the editorial computers coordinate with one or more of the system computers to migrate one or more documents between journals maintained by the online document management system.
--------
Stephen M. Fiore, Ph.D.
Professor, Cognitives Sciences, Department of Philosophy (philosophy.cah.ucf.edu/staff.php?id=134)
Director, Cognitive Sciences Laboratory, Institute for Simulation & Training (http://csl.ist.ucf.edu/)
University of Central Florida
Siegel, Vivian
On Aug 30, 2016, at 11:23 PM, Fiore, Steve <sfi...@ist.ucf.edu> wrote:
This is distressing. Given the numerous systems I've worked with in the past, I fail to see anything really unique in the system Elsevier just patented (at least based upon the diagram). Does this mean they're essentially "copyrighting" something that was already created (said with an ironic tone...). In all seriousness, the question is whether they'll now try to sue any journal that has already been using something similar, or any that develop a system that will, basically, just organize/automate aspects of the peer review system (like many conferences already do).
Best,Steve
Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Online peer review system and method
An online document management system is disclosed. In one embodiment, the online document management system comprises: one or more editorial computers operated by one or more administrators or editors, the editorial computers send invitations and manage peer review of document submissions; one or more system computers, the system computers maintain journals, records of submitted documents and user profiles, and issue notifications; and one or more user computers; the user computers submit documents or revisions to the document management system; wherein one or more of the editorial computers coordinate with one or more of the system computers to migrate one or more documents between journals maintained by the online document management system.
--------
Stephen M. Fiore, Ph.D.Professor, Cognitives Sciences, Department of Philosophy (philosophy.cah.ucf.edu/staff.php?id=134)Director, Cognitive Sciences Laboratory, Institute for Simulation & Training (http://csl.ist.ucf.edu/)
University of Central Florida
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Glenn Hampson
Given that we have a number of Elsevier executives on this list who I’m sure would be happy to answer questions (or find answers), I’d like to restate these concerns in the form of a question. Specifically, Elsevier colleagues (at present Alicia, Ann, Gemma, Brad, Paul, and William)---can one of you take a crack at describing this system for the group? The patent document is dense and our interpretations of it are going to vary. Is this online peer review tool a proprietary computer/software system that will be licensed?
Thanks,
Glenn
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Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)
Hi Glenn,
People appear to be suggesting that we patented online peer review in an attempt to own it. No, we just patented our own novel systems.
With best wishes,
Alicia
Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084, Registered in England and Wales.
Vickery, Bryan
Hi Alicia,
Could someone at Elsevier highlight the parts that are novel? That would help immensely.
Thanks, Bryan
Bryan Vickery
Director, Cogent OA
Catherine Wojewodzki
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Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084, Registered in England and Wales.
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Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF)
Hi Catherine,
I’m told that companies patenting proprietary software is not uncommon…
With kind wishes,
Alicia
From: Catherine Wojewodzki [mailto:cat...@udel.edu]
Sent: 31 August 2016 17:02
To: Wise, Alicia (ELS-OXF) <A.W...@elsevier.com>; osi20...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Alicia,
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Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084, Registered in England and Wales.
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Jo De
Éric Archambault
Software is not easy to patent and the embodiment must reflect a computational challenge:
To be patent eligible claims to software must be “rooted in computer technology in order to overcome a problem specifically arising in the realm of computer networks.” Of course, this patent eligible example of software patent claims is extremely relevant for business methods because a naked business method is no longer patent eligible. To have a realistic chance of being patented business methods must be tied to a particular compute technology in a meaningful and substantial way. Said another way, the business method really needs to be performed by and through a concrete and tangible system, where the system and processes are painstakingly described.
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/08/29/patenting-business-methods-and-software/id=54576/
The patent has a business method look more than one “rooted in computer technology” – I wouldn’t worry so much about it as it probably wouldn’t hold in court. I don’t have my tea leaves here but I would think this patent reflects performance indicators’ induced behaviour (“We need to be more innovative and obtain patents”) or it is a defensive patent so that other parties would block Elsevier from continuing to do what it has been doing.
My two cents.
Éric
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Mike Taylor
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Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084, Registered in England and Wales.
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Éric Archambault
Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality. Such a change would certainly be unwelcomed by the community, and would present considerable risks in terms of PR. Not too worried about Elsevier becoming a patent troll.
É
From: Mike Taylor [mailto:mi...@indexdata.com]
Sent: August 31, 2016 1:40 PM
To: Éric Archambault <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com>
Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
A cynic might think that this is the first step an untrustworthy company would take preparatory to filing a lot of time-wasting and resource-sapping nuisance lawsuits on its smaller, faster-moving competitors.
-- Mike.
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Elsevier Limited. Registered Office: The Boulevard, Langford Lane, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 1GB, United Kingdom, Registration No. 1982084, Registered in England and Wales.
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Mike Taylor
Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
Rebecca Kennison
On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
I am surprised to hear this.
https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evil-suing-their-customers/
https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-academia-edu/
https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/-- Mike.
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Éric Archambault
Mike
I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong market position, they can frequently impose their will without resorting frequently to courts.
É
From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi20...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
To: Éric Archambault <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com>
Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
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Mike Taylor
get their own way, without the inconvenience of having to actually
litigate.
Well: let's hope they're better than that. Time will tell.
-- Mike.
On 31 August 2016 at 19:32, Éric Archambault
Glenn Hampson
Hi Folks,
Geez---I'm not really back from vacation yet....
A favor please: This is not the right forum for smack talk. If you want to say bad things about publishers, libraries, OA advocates, policymakers, etc., please do this someplace else. This space is for sharing perspectives, yes, but in a respectful manner with an eye toward finding common ground and working productively toward solutions. Elsevier is a valued partner in OSI and this effort would be very much reduced if they decided it just wasn't worth their time any more to work with this group. This is your chance to sit at a new table---to actually talk to high level stakeholder representatives in this space and reach an understanding. I can appreciate that it's going to take time to get used to this process, but please try---and to those who are getting kicked in the shins, I hope you can be patient with this growth stage.
Thank you,
Glenn
Glenn Hampson
Executive Director
National Science Communication Institute (nSCI)
Program Director
Open Scholarship Initiative (OSI)
2320 N 137th Street | Seattle, WA 98133
(206) 417-3607 | gham...@nationalscience.org | nationalscience.org
David Wojick
Inside Public Access
Hi Folks,
Geez---I'm not really back from vacation yet....
A favor please: This is not the right forum for smack talk. If you want to say bad things about publishers, libraries, OA advocates, policymakers, etc., please do this someplace else. This space is for sharing perspectives, yes, but in a respectful manner with an eye toward finding common ground and working productively toward solutions. Elsevier is a valued partner in OSI and this effort would be very much reduced if they decided it just wasn't worth their time any more to work with this group. This is your chance to sit at a new table---to actually talk to high level stakeholder representatives in this space and reach an understanding. I can appreciate that it's going to take time to get used to this process, but please try---and to those who are getting kicked in the shins, I hope you can be patient with this growth stage.
Thank you,
Glenn
Glenn Hampson
Executive Director
National Science Communication Institute (nSCI)
Program Director
Open Scholarship Initiative (OSI)
<image001.jpg>
Mike Taylor
particular actor and infer that they are likely to do similar things
in future. Pretending -- to ourselves or to others -- that it's all
going to somehow be different this time is the exact opposite of
rational.
Emotion need not come into it.
-- Mike.
Scott Delman
Scott
Mike Taylor
many of those on the listserv on the defensive"?
-- Mike.
Scott Delman
Scott
Mel DeSart
The Engineering Library at the University of Washington is home to one of (I believe still) 84 Patent and Trademark Resource Centers in the U.S., so while I'm no _expert_ on patenting, I do have a reasonably solid background in what is and isn't patentable, and answer questions like that on a fairly regular basis..
Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel DeSart
Head, Engineering Library
Acting Head, Branch Libraries
University of Washington des...@u.washington.edu
Box 352170 voice: 206-685-8369
Seattle, WA 98195-2170 fax: 206-543-3305
“It is not written in the stars that I will always understand what is going
on -- a truism that I often find damnably annoying."
Robert A. Heinlein, from his novel "Friday"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laurie Goodman
Until someone reads or finds out the actual details of the patent, there can't be any real discussion.
At this point we can only make conjecture about the value of patenting "this"; the possibility of it having any impact at all on the community; whether it is a frivolous or fruitful activity for the company; how this could possibly effect a move toward open scholarship; or anything else.
I doubt, and don't expect, the folks from Elsevier in this thread to have any detailed information. as this was most likely very senior corporate and lawyer decisions and work.
We need more information.
Until then, let the smack talk continue, it's entertaining me.
L
>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi2016-25@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Method”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am surprised to hear this.
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evi
>>
>>> l-suing-their-customers/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acade
>>
>>> mia-edu/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/
>>
>>
>>> -- Mike.
>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> As a public and publicly-funded effort, the conversations on this list
>>
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Macklin, Lisa
The actual details of the patent are easy enough to determine – see the attached from the USPTO. One aspect of receiving a patent is that you have to publicly disclose the invention or method you are patenting. This is what was patented. The scope of this patent does not encompass every peer review system. I am sharing this in the spirit of relying on facts over conjecture.
Cheers,
Lisa
Lisa A. Macklin, JD, MLS
Director, Scholarly Communications Office
Library and Information Technology Services
Emory University
Atlanta, GA 30322
From: <osi20...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Laurie Goodman <lau...@gigasciencejournal.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 5:26 PM
To: Scott Delman <scott....@hq.acm.org>
Cc: David Wojick <dwo...@craigellachie.us>, Mike Taylor <mi...@indexdata.com>, "osi20...@googlegroups.com" <osi20...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Until someone reads or finds out the actual details of the patent, there can't be any real discussion.
>> <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi20...@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Method”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am surprised to hear this.
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evi
>>
>>> l-suing-their-customers/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acade
>>
>>> mia-edu/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/
>>
>>
>>> -- Mike.
>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> As a public and publicly-funded effort, the conversations on this list
>>
>>> can be viewed by the public and are archived. To read this group's
>>
>>> complete listserv policy (including disclaimer and reuse information),
>>
>>> please visit http://osinitiative.org/osi-listservs.
>>
>>> ---
>>
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>
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>>
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>>> Version: 2016.0.7752 / Virus Database: 4647/12899 - Release Date:
>>
>>> 08/28/16
>>
>>
>>
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Anthony
Are the special features, whatever they are, in the two commercial systems mentioned in the patent – those of Aries and of Scholar One protected by patents?
At a quick glance the waterfall feature seems to be the main improvement. It is has been said by many for some time that it is a good thing if one journal rejects a paper all the information relating to this submission should be passed on to other journals. I take this to be what we are talking about here: an automated function which will save time. It also looks to me if there is provision for an author decision as to whether they want this transference to be put into action.
Anthony
Rebecca Kennison
Michael Wolfe
>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi2016-25@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Method”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am surprised to hear this.
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evi
>>
>>> l-suing-their-customers/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acade
>>
>>> mia-edu/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/
>>
>>
>>> -- Mike.
>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> As a public and publicly-funded effort, the conversations on this list
>>
>>> can be viewed by the public and are archived. To read this group's
>>
>>> complete listserv policy (including disclaimer and reuse information),
>>
>>> please visit http://osinitiative.org/osi-listservs.
>>
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>>
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>>> Version: 2016.0.7752 / Virus Database: 4647/12899 - Release Date:
>>
>>> 08/28/16
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Rebecca Kennison
>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi2016-25@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Method”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am surprised to hear this.
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evi
>>
>>> l-suing-their-customers/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acade
>>
>>> mia-edu/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/
>>
>>
>>> -- Mike.
>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> As a public and publicly-funded effort, the conversations on this list
>>
>>> can be viewed by the public and are archived. To read this group's
>>
>>> complete listserv policy (including disclaimer and reuse information),
>>
>>> please visit http://osinitiative.org/osi-listservs.
>>
>>> ---
>>
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>>
>>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>>> Version: 2016.0.7752 / Virus Database: 4647/12899 - Release Date:
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
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Anthony
Apologies Rebecca. It looks as if I missed some emails at the beginning of the thread.
I know that BMC have had this feature for some time and I take it that their authors have to accept (on submission?) a passing on to another/other journals. Is there anyone who can confirm?
Anthony
From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi20...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rebecca Kennison
Sent: 31 August 2016 23:08
To: Anthony
Cc: Macklin, Lisa; Laurie Goodman; Scott Delman; David Wojick; Mike Taylor; The Open Scholarship Initiative
Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review System and Method”
Agreed. As -- indeed -- I pointed out already. And as Vivian also noted, at the very beginning of this thread, the concern, if any, is not in the process per se but where in the process the author is involved.
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Anthony <anthony....@btinternet.com> wrote:
Are the special features, whatever they are, in the two commercial systems mentioned in the patent – those of Aries and of Scholar One protected by patents?
At a quick glance the waterfall feature seems to be the main improvement. It is has been said by many for some time that it is a good thing if one journal rejects a paper all the information relating to this submission should be passed on to other journals. I take this to be what we are talking about here: an automated function which will save time. It also looks to me if there is provision for an author decision as to whether they want this transference to be put into action.
Anthony
>> <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com [mailto:osi20...@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Method”
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> <eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am surprised to hear this.
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2012/01/27/publishers-invent-a-whole-new-form-of-evi
>>
>>> l-suing-their-customers/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acade
>>
>>> mia-edu/
>>
>>> https://svpow.com/2016/02/17/barbra-streisand-elsevier-and-sci-hub/
>>
>>
>>> -- Mike.
>>
>>
>>> --
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Rebecca Kennison
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347 746 5931 office
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Glenn Hampson
Sorry for the delay. I've been torn between replying and belaboring---but you raise an important point (as usual) and it merits both. At the risk of talking down to anyone---and I sincerely apologize if I'm doing this here---I think the answer you're looking for is that work like collaborating and negotiating requires a leap of faith. This leap is neither rational nor irrational----it's a necessity. In negotiating, differing parties can never come to terms if they can't let go of the past (or at least their perceptions of the past). There are a thousand stones that everyone on every side of every issue can throw---publishers might look at you, for instance, and wonder why they should believe you will ever play nice with Elsevier in the future. In our case, almost all of the people on this list are willing to give this effort a try. Even for those few delegates who have chosen to remain on this list but have otherwise given up hope---who are not attending OSI2017 because they don't believe OSI will work---I hope they can remain engaged in a productive manner. All voices have equal value and dignity here. The trick, Mike---or the challenge---is for all of us to channel our passion for publishing reform toward genuinely engaging the other people in this conversation with whom we disagree, and developing solutions together. This is much harder and less entertaining than throwing out zingers, but in the end, society will have something to show for our efforts.
Thanks as always,
Glenn
Glenn Hampson
Executive Director
National Science Communication Institute (nSCI)
Program Director
Open Scholarship Initiative (OSI)
>> i
>
>> l-suing-their-customers/
>
>> https://svpow.com/2013/12/06/elsevier-is-taking-down-papers-from-acad
>> e
>
Joyce Ogburn
Sent from my iPad
Marcus A Banks
That said, we don’t want to get to the point where nobody ever says anything interesting because they are “walking on eggshells” so as not to offend anyone. This group is filled with smart people holding strong views, we all know that! So I’m not sure that a fully and completely disinterested issue analysis is possible with such a group of agenda-holding human beings. So, yes, let’s dialogue in good faith and with respect even with those with whom we have long disagreed. But let’s also be authentic to what we actually believe as we do it.
Marcus
Mike Taylor
discussion group of the Open Scholarship initiative, and we have an
interest in open scholarship. Here we have a move (patenting cascading
peer-reivew) that is obviously inimical to open scholarship. If we
can't say that in this group for fear of offending then I am truly
left wondering what the point of the group is.
It's one thing to invite the fox to come and discuss with all us
rabbits and chickens -- a fine thing, and one of OSI's great
achievements. But when you let the fox set the agenda of what can be
said -- when we can't refer to the fox's being a predator, for fear
that it will take offence -- then there is really nothing of substance
to be said, is there?
Meanwhile, you can be sure that all the other foxes back at the den
are delighted to see the rabbits and chickens gagging themselves, and
frittering away what little influence and what few resources they have
in arguing with one another. It's a great triumph for the fox to see
any chance of a rabbit-and-chicken rebellion quietly sinking back into
the swamp, as the rabbits and chickens tell each other comforting lies
about how the fox just wants what's best for them.
And with that clumsy metaphor, I will step out of this thread, which
it seems we as a group don't have the stomach for. I do realise that I
am making myself unwelcome in this group, and I'll be happy to step
down if that helps you, Glenn. After all, anyone who wants to know
what I think about things can always find out at http://svpow.com/
Yours valedictorially,
-- Mike.
On 1 September 2016 at 02:00, Glenn Hampson
Joyce Ogburn
>> <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be
>>> impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a
>>> strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:osi2016-25@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault <eric.archambault@science-metrix.com>
>>> an email to osi2016-25+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>> To post to this group, send email to osi20...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/osi2016-25.
>>
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>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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David Wojick
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Taylor, Stuart
While I totally support the aim of keeping conversations and minds as open as possible in the hope of keeping all parties engaged, I'd like to caution against being over-restrictive lest we shut down legitimate debate. Obviously this can be a fine line at times, but provided we keep the conversation civil and the questions legitimate, I - for one - would like us all to feel we can be honest with each other and air all relevant issues. I don't think it's about 'throwing out zingers' to be entertaining; rather it's about being sufficiently free to raise topics on which we may be passionately divided.
Personally, I don't consider Mike was over the line with his comments and I have no doubt that if anyone wanted to direct a tough question toward *him* about any of his views, he'd be more than happy to explain himself and would manage perfectly well not to be offended. This is all he is expecting of others.
I think we can afford to be a little braver, Glenn, without risking collapse of the great collaborative effort you have built.
Best wishes
Stuart
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Glenn Hampson
Alas, it's Friday, and my rhetorical skills shrink to the size of a walnut by the end of the week, so I'm no match for you Mike. Maybe if I resort to short bullet points I can clarify my positions here:
1. Please do endeavor to continue being honest and forthcoming---I never meant to suggest otherwise. Just do so in a manner that’s respectful and doesn’t push other people away and preclude the possibility of productive engagement. For example, referring to Elsevier as a fox in a henhouse, a patent predator, etc. is great for your blog, Mike, but not for this forum. As a group, we shouldn’t countenance any member disrespecting another. It’s one thing to have differences of opinion, quite another to elevate our own opinions so far above others that we sow discord and make progress impossible.
2. We're at the start of our journey, so don't pull out the life rafts just yet.
3. We’re going to notice lots of enticing tangents along the way. Let’s set up a parking lot for these but keep our eye on the prize. We simply don’t have the time, energy, or expertise to tackle everything that comes along. For now, you have a proposal in hand for where OSI should focus in 2016-17 and the workgroups we should form.
4. You are a clear, unique and impactful voice Mike and we want you to stay engaged in this process. That said, I gather from your comments that you are probably an OSI skeptic, which is fine, but for you and others of this mindset, please resist the temptation to scuttle our efforts. If you can be helpful---even if only through constructive criticism---we’re better off for your presence. If you find that you simply can’t be helpful, you are not bound to stay in this group. The door is open either way.
With this weak flourish, I’d like to suggest that we drop this topic and move on for the following reasons:
1. Elsevier is not defending themselves in this matter, which is understandable---the tone of our conversation is not open-minded whatsoever. In their absence, I would point out (as I believe David did earlier) that large corporations routinely take out defensive patents to keep the trolls at bay. These patents are not “offensive” in nature---just common business practices. Amazon patents shipping and fulfillment processes, for instance, not so it can sue UPS but so it doesn’t get sued by Intellectual Ventures (another Seattle company) with claims that someone else invented the processes they are using. This is just one of the unique concerns and perspectives that large publishers face as major corporations---it would be interesting to get a better understanding of these over time.
2. This conversation is largely uniformed at the moment, with lots of speculation about motives and very little factual content.
3. This topic is tangential---a good candidate for the parking lot.
All this said, if the lure of this topic is simply too great, then those of you who are interested in exploring this more are welcome to set up a side conversation and report back to the full group in a few weeks with a more in-depth analysis. Just reply to me directly and I’ll connect you via email. If enough of you are interested, I’d be happy to set up a listserv for you.
Happy Labor Day weekend and see you next week,
Glenn
Glenn Hampson
Executive Director
National Science Communication Institute (nSCI)
Program Director
Open Scholarship Initiative (OSI)
David Wojick
Folks need to keep in mind that posts to this list are addressed to everyone on the list, not just to those who happen to share your views. So when stating a strong or controversial view, it is best to say something like "I believe/think/feel that X" rather than asserting X as an established or obvious fact. And name calling has no place at all, even implied or metaphorical name calling.
Let's make this work.
David
http://insidepublicaccess.com/
Alas, it's Friday, and my rhetorical skills shrink to the size of a walnut by the end of the week, so I'm no match for you Mike. Maybe if I resort to short bullet points I can clarify my positions here:
1. Please do endeavor to continue being honest and forthcoming---I never meant to suggest otherwise. Just do so in a manner that’s respectful and doesn’t push other people away and preclude the possibility of productive engagement. For example, referring to Elsevier as a fox in a henhouse, a patent predator, etc. is great for your blog, Mike, but not for this forum. As a group, we shouldn’t countenance any member disrespecting another. It’s one thing to have differences of opinion, quite another to elevate our own opinions so far above others that we sow discord and make progress impossible.
2. We're at the start of our journey, so don't pull out the life rafts just yet.
3. We’re going to notice lots of enticing tangents along the way. Let’s set up a parking lot for these but keep our eye on the prize. We simply don’t have the time, energy, or expertise to tackle everything that comes along. For now, you have a proposal in hand for where OSI should focus in 2016-17 and the workgroups we should form.
4. You are a clear, unique and impactful voice Mike and we want you to stay engaged in this process. That said, I gather from your comments that you are probably an OSI skeptic, which is fine, but for you and others of this mindset, please resist the temptation to scuttle our efforts. If you can be helpful---even if only through constructive criticism---we’re better off for your presence. If you find that you simply can’t be helpful, you are not bound to stay in this group. The door is open either way.
With this weak flourish, I’d like to suggest that we drop this topic and move on for the following reasons:
1. Elsevier is not defending themselves in this matter, which is understandable---the tone of our conversation is not open-minded whatsoever. In their absence, I would point out (as I believe David did earlier) that large corporations routinely take out defensive patents to keep the trolls at bay. These patents are not “offensive†in nature---just common business practices. Amazon patents shipping and fulfillment processes, for instance, not so it can sue UPS but so it doesn’t get sued by Intellectual Ventures (another Seattle company) with claims that someone else invented the processes they are using. This is just one of the unique concerns and perspectives that large publishers face as major corporations---it would be interesting to get a better understanding of these over time.
2. This conversation is largely uniformed at the moment, with lots of speculation about motives and very little factual content.
3. This topic is tangential---a good candidate for the parking lot.
All this said, if the lure of this topic is simply too great, then those of you who are interested in exploring this more are welcome to set up a side conversation and report back to the full group in a few weeks with a more in-depth analysis. Just reply to me directly and I’ll connect you via email. If enough of you are interested, I’d be happy to set up a listserv for you.
>> On 31 August 2016 at 19:32, Éric Archambault
>> < eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be
>>> impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the
>>> privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a
>>> strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>> [ mailto:osi20...@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault < eric.arc...@science-metrix.com>
>>
>>> Cc: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Subject: Re: Elsevier Awarded U.S. Patent For “Online Peer Review
>>
>>> System and Methodâ€
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 18:47, Éric Archambault
>>
>>> < eric.arc...@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Elsevier doesn’t have a litigious personality.
Barrett, Kim
Agree!
And likely of interest to the group: http://phys.org/news/2016-08-science-movement.html
*************************************
Kim E. Barrett, Ph.D.
Dean of the Graduate Division
Distinguished Professor of Medicine
University of California, San Diego
9500 Gilman Drive
La Jolla, CA 92093-0003
Phone: (858) 534 6655
Fax: (858) 534 4304
“Graduate education that transforms, enriches and inspires”
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Laurie Goodman
Sorry, I disagree.
I think it's fair to allow people who typically write using metaphore can give an opinion about a company in any manner they want. Talking smack about people in this chain is inappropriate, I'll agree, obviously.
So, in the interest of open dialog, having to watch how I phrase something makes it far less likely for me to participate.
If people want to say bad things about companies I work for, in whatever way they want, please do. Better that than someone feeling like they have to be cautious and thus maybe will decide not to say anything.
I've had people say things about my companies, and they 'way' they say it makes it clear how strongly someone feels about something, thus, how important it might be for me to help address it where I work.
My vote then is, relax. I understand if people disagree me. Just wanted to note that usually when I feel emotionally strong about something, I don't participate.
Cheers,
Laurie
>> < eric.archambault@science-metrix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I feared that would be coming and should have been more explicit. I
>>
>>> didn’t mean they never went into litigation – that would be
>>> impossible
>>
>>> for a business of that size. I mean this is not one of the
>>> privileged
>>
>>> ways to sort out problems. It’s a bit like Google, which such a
>>> strong
>>
>>> market position, they can frequently impose their will without
>>
>>> resorting frequently to courts.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> É
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> From: osi20...@googlegroups.com
>>> [ mailto:osi2016-25@googlegroups.com]
>>
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Taylor
>>
>>> Sent: August 31, 2016 1:53 PM
>>
>>> To: Éric Archambault < eric.archambault@science-metrix.com>
>>> an email to osi2016-25+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>> To post to this group, send email to osi20...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/osi2016-25.
>>
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>
>>>
>>
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
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>>
>>
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Anthony
Thanks Kim. This is a very nice short explanation. At present most researchers know nothing about the open agenda (I can give chapter and verse) and this sort of explanation to physicists can only be useful
Anthony
