Did you participate in the May Meat Challenge?

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Emerald

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May 31, 2018, 9:46:12 AM5/31/18
to ClimateActivists-SC, osc_eart...@googlegroups.com
Today is the last day of the May Meat Challenge.
Please share your experiences and feedback.
How did you participate?
What did you learn?
What improvements would make this better next year?

Rebel Fagin

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May 31, 2018, 3:24:48 PM5/31/18
to Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, osc_eart...@googlegroups.com
I only could participate at home for when I am working I take whatever food I am offered if I am offered food. That said I continued my same diet with smaller amounts of beef in the chillie and fewer pieces of chicken (2) per meal. I will most likely continue like this. - Rebel

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Tom Amato

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May 31, 2018, 5:11:14 PM5/31/18
to Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
Yes Chris and I both limited our meat consumption.

Tom

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Rebel Fagin <rebel...@gmail.com> wrote:
I only could participate at home for when I am working I take whatever food I am offered if I am offered food. That said I continued my same diet with smaller amounts of beef in the chillie and fewer pieces of chicken (2) per meal. I will most likely continue like this. - Rebel
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:46 AM, Emerald <Emerald@occupysonomacounty.org> wrote:
Today is the last day of the May Meat Challenge.
Please share your experiences and feedback.
How did you participate?
What did you learn?
What improvements would make this better next year?

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Larry Hanson

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May 31, 2018, 7:35:48 PM5/31/18
to Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
I suppose the challenge was for primarily meat eaters. It is an important one, for the environment/climate impacts, for health, and considerations for giving animals humanity. Hopefully, some will continue with it.

Larry

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Kamran Nayeri

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May 31, 2018, 8:44:40 PM5/31/18
to Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
Dear All,

I have written privately to Kamal about his video clip which I have shared with my network and to Emerald in response to her questions.  I feel now it may be useful to write to "everybody."  

I am an ecocentric socialist who became a vegetarian in 2000 and a vegan in 2006 (when I wrote to Emerald, I mistakenly wrote, 2008).  I do not feel like I sacrificed anything at all. In fact, I think it has been a tremendous part of my personal development in every sense of the word.  I am healthier--fended off high cholesterol and later pre-diabetics)--leaner and stronger, and have a much healthier relationship with the rest of nature.   When my mother (she died 4 years ago) saw a deer she immediately talked about what a nice kebob she can make out of her.  A doe usually picks my two-acres as her foraging and resting place and see no danger in me walking by her. Same is true will all other wildlife that is my neighbors here.  When I stand in my very expansive garden, I feel I am in presence of trillions of organisms. I am connected to the rest of nature.  How can I feel this way, if I still contribute to the misery of billions of farm animals yearly by eating their corpses or use their by-products from milk to leather? 

To save the world, we must LOVE the world. How can we LOVE them the world if we pursue on a daily basis a culture of domination and control of Mother Nature? But that is what agriculture is about--it began with the domestication of plant and animals and ended up domesticating ourselves and our minds, including human oppression and exploitation of other humans in all manner possible. 

So, becoming vegan is not simply about dietary changes. It is about a deep critique of civilization as it has emerged about 5,000 years ago. 

I discuss these issues in detail in my writings which you can find at Kamran Nayeri's Writings.  But let me suggest two pieces, one short about civilizational crisis and another about veganism. 

Gardening, Ground Squirrels and Crisis of Civilization


How Veganism Can Help Save the World


Of course, I am available to you for further conversation; please write me privately.

Thank you. 

For the Earth,

Kamran Nayeri, Ph.D.

P.S. Take a moment to visit this blog (with close to a million hits so far) and consider contributing to it. 




On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Larry Hanson <larryj...@comcast.net> wrote:
I suppose the challenge was for primarily meat eaters. It is an important one, for the environment/climate impacts, for health, and considerations for giving animals humanity. Hopefully, some will continue with it.

Larry
On May 31, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Tom Amato <amatot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Chris and I both limited our meat consumption.

Tom
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Rebel Fagin <rebel...@gmail.com> wrote:
I only could participate at home for when I am working I take whatever food I am offered if I am offered food. That said I continued my same diet with smaller amounts of beef in the chillie and fewer pieces of chicken (2) per meal. I will most likely continue like this. - Rebel

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A.A. Nagy

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May 31, 2018, 11:48:04 PM5/31/18
to Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign

In our relative affluence in the “land of plenty,” we are privileged to have choices of fresh vegetables, either local or imported from wherever, at the market. Most people in the world subsist from what they grow, domesticated animals they raise, or hunt. If we can minimize factory farm production and stop cutting down forests for raising cattle, that will help the environment and our health. Being vegan may be good but we must understand that for survival on this living planet, everything eats everything. The way it is.

My diet is varied, mostly what I learned to cook in a traditional Hungarian household. in Hungary (Magyarország) we raised and ate pigs, chickens, geese, ducks, rabbits, and also had a vegetable garden and fruit trees. Coming to the US I learned to like hamburgers. I don’t eat much red meat these days. I cook beans, vegetables, chicken and fish. I love fresh corn. Besides basic Hungarian peasant food, I cook some Mexican, and improvised concoctions — nothing fancy.

Attila
__


Dave Molidor

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Jun 1, 2018, 1:26:27 PM6/1/18
to A.A. Nagy, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
Attila , 


Did those animals consent to having their throats slit? Is that a moral way to treat a sentient being that feels pain when it's unnecessary for our survival?  
Chicken and fish are not healthy, by the way. You really don't need them in your diet. I'm happy to send you literature affirming that. 
Sorry, but there are a million excuses to continue consuming animals but none of them carry any weight unless you live off grid and hunt as a means of survival, like a caveman- which I think we can all agree we are not. 

This is not an attack on you, so please don't take it that way. 
Animals have rights to their lives like we do, and if we are going to get anywhere as a society we need to end the speciesism we so blatantly display on a daily basis. 

Peace and love 



















Molidor, David Lawrence 
dba DAVID LAWRENCE MOLIDOR
business entity ID#875120400020
Minnesota Secretary of State
The Orgonized Earth

"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation."

Kamal Prasad

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Jun 1, 2018, 1:41:13 PM6/1/18
to Larry Hanson, A.A. Nagy, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
Modern medicine, living standards/conditions, easy mobility means that natural selection hardly, if at all, plays a part in the current evolution of humans.

The next major evolution of humankind will be social evolution. It is how we will treat each other and the planet if we are to ensure the continuation of humanity on this planet. That means we cannot rely on the adage, "it's always been this way." How we consume resources and how we use (and waste) resources in the modern world cannot be reflective of how we've done things in the past. 

Animal agriculture already uses the amount of land area the size of North and South America combined! (https://ourworldindata.org/yields-and-land-use-in-agriculture#how-the-world-s-land-is-used-total-area-sizes-by-type-of-use-cover) Farmed animal population, by weight, outnumber both humans and wild land mammals and bird combined!

It is naïve to think that we can slowly reduce our consumption of animal products while trying to bring the destruction that animal agriculture causes in balance with nature. Especially since western diets are increasingly being adopted by developing nations. 

Even wild animals, including carnivores, have been demonstrated to protect animals from a different species when their own basic needs are met. Surely, humans with the abundance of plant foods available to us can do better, particularly if it means restoring the wilderness, wildlife habitats and the environment.

It's time to stop making excuses and evolve.

With all due respect,


Kamal


--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
- http://blog.sciencesquare.com
- http://kamalprasad.com

'Live Long and Prosper,' as a Vulcan would say.

Do you know someone who has or is transitioning to a more compassionate and sustainable plant-based lifestyle. Share this "Welcome to the Community" video with them: https://youtu.be/xGqCRHpnMZw

Do we really need GMOs to feed a growing population, or is there another, simpler solution. https://youtu.be/-DvUbF3pqbA

Human population may be a problem but there is a bigger population problem that anyone can do something about: https://youtu.be/P85tspnn34U


On ‎Thursday‎, ‎May‎ ‎31‎, ‎2018‎ ‎08‎:‎48‎:‎05‎ ‎PM‎ ‎PDT, A.A. Nagy <zen...@comcast.net> wrote:



In our relative affluence in the “land of plenty,” we are privileged to have choices of fresh vegetables, either local or imported from wherever, at the market. Most people in the world subsist from what they grow, domesticated animals they raise, or hunt. If we can minimize factory farm production and stop cutting down forests for raising cattle, that will help the environment and our health. Being vegan may be good but we must understand that for survival on this living planet, everything eats everything. The way it is.

My diet is varied, mostly what I learned to cook in a traditional Hungarian household. in Hungary (Magyarország) we raised and ate pigs, chickens, geese, ducks, rabbits, and also had a vegetable garden and fruit trees. Coming to the US I learned to like hamburgers. I don’t eat much red meat these days. I cook beans, vegetables, chicken and fish. I love fresh corn. Besides basic Hungarian peasant food, I cook some Mexican, and improvised concoctions — nothing fancy.

Attila
__


On May 31, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Larry Hanson <larryj...@comcast.net> wrote:

I suppose the challenge was for primarily meat eaters. It is an important one, for the environment/climate impacts, for health, and considerations for giving animals humanity. Hopefully, some will continue with it.

Larry
On May 31, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Tom Amato <amatot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Chris and I both limited our meat consumption.

Tom
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Rebel Fagin <rebel...@gmail.com> wrote:
I only could participate at home for when I am working I take whatever food I am offered if I am offered food. That said I continued my same diet with smaller amounts of beef in the chillie and fewer pieces of chicken (2) per meal. I will most likely continue like this. - Rebel

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:46 AM, Emerald <Emerald@occupysonomacounty. org> wrote:
Today is the last day of the May Meat Challenge.
Please share your experiences and feedback.
How did you participate?
What did you learn?
What improvements would make this better next year?

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Veronica Jacobi

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Jun 1, 2018, 2:27:56 PM6/1/18
to Kamal Prasad, Larry Hanson, A A. Nagy, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC@googlegroups com, osc_earth-action@googlegroups com

I greatly appreciate this discussion.  Diet for a Small Planet and Diet for a New America helped me go Vegetarian and the Forks Over Knives video helped me get to very close to Vegan. B12, flax seeds and maybe fish oil can be good for very close to vegan.  Also chicken is much less hard on greenhouse gases than beef.  Striving for very close to Vegan is easy most of the time.  I believe meat should not be wasted.  Thanks! Xxxxoooo

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Kamal Prasad

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Jun 1, 2018, 2:43:54 PM6/1/18
to Larry Hanson, A A. Nagy, Veronica Jacobi, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC@googlegroups com, osc_earth-action@googlegroups com
Of the 9+ billion farmed animals in the U.S.  over 8 billion are chicken. Chicken produce nitrous oxide, which is a GHG 300 times more potent than CO2 at trapping heat in the atmosphere. And while beef consumption has gone down in the U.S. chicken consumption has gone up (https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/), which makes GHG output of chickens on par with cattle. Switching from beef to chicken is not a valid solution to our environmental problems.

If we weren't breeding billions of animals who wouldn't otherwise exist, there would be no meat to waste.


Kamal

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------------------------------------------------------------------
- http://blog.sciencesquare.com
- http://kamalprasad.com

'Live Long and Prosper,' as a Vulcan would say.

Do you know someone who has or is transitioning to a more compassionate and sustainable plant-based lifestyle. Share this "Welcome to the Community" video with them: https://youtu.be/xGqCRHpnMZw

Do we really need GMOs to feed a growing population, or is there another, simpler solution. https://youtu.be/-DvUbF3pqbA

Human population may be a problem but there is a bigger population problem that anyone can do something about: https://youtu.be/P85tspnn34U


Larry Hanson

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Jun 1, 2018, 4:45:09 PM6/1/18
to Kamal Prasad, A A. Nagy, Veronica Jacobi, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC@googlegroups com, osc_earth-action@googlegroups com
To address the question, “Do we need GMOs to feed a growing population…”, the answer is not just no. The premise is false. “Feeding the world” is another lie by the industry/govenment collusion. GMOs in the food industry are largely created for monopolizing the market inextricably connected to the pesticide industry. Food shortages (so far in the world) have to do with unfair and unjust distribution. Reducing meat consumption besides being much more efficient and healthy would free up mega-tons of grains (hopefully non-GMOs) for direct consumption by humans.

Larry

A.A. Nagy

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Jun 1, 2018, 8:25:08 PM6/1/18
to Dave Molidor, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Rebel Fagin, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign

Dave Molidor, have you been to any so-called “third-world” countries to see how people live? Will you explain your privileged point of view to a family that raises goats, chickens, pigs, etc. as a means of survival? Or, perhaps rainforests on several continents where people hunt for food? And indigenous people who rely on the sea or rivers for fish, etc.

Let’s make the distinction between factory farming and families that subsist by raising or hunting animals, which they consume with appreciation for the life they give — they have a deeper connection to the life cycle than urban vegans.

I don’t mean to dis vegans but it’s not necessary to guilt trip or insult people (“cave man?”) and communities that survive on this planet in a different way than urban dwellers.

Peace.
Attila
__

Rebel Fagin

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Jun 1, 2018, 10:27:31 PM6/1/18
to A.A. Nagy, Dave Molidor, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
You know all this talk about less meat and being nice to other animals is fine but it begs a question. How many of you who care about the lives of animals care about the lives of Palestinians? Will you stand for justice for Palestine or is it only for cows? Let's see some action here on the needs of people under oppression otherwise I don't care about the lives of chickens and cows. - Rebel


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Dave Molidor

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Jun 1, 2018, 10:43:22 PM6/1/18
to Rebel Fagin, A.A. Nagy, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
I care deeply about Palestinians and post on it a lot on social media, raising awareness about Zionist extremism in Israel and the illegitimate Rothschild presence (research the "Balfour Declaration").
There is no differentiation in my heart and mind between 
an exploited, enslaved murdered human and an exploited, enslaved murdered "animal", as we call them (we are animals too, yes?).



















Molidor, David Lawrence 
dba DAVID LAWRENCE MOLIDOR
business entity ID#875120400020
Minnesota Secretary of State
The Orgonized Earth

"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation."

Kamran Nayeri

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Jun 1, 2018, 11:36:04 PM6/1/18
to Dave Molidor, Rebel Fagin, A.A. Nagy, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
I am new to this group and probably do not personally know anyone on it. But the conversation on this thread was initiated by Emerald asking for feedback from the "May Meat Challenge."  The conversation has evolved into some possible contentions views about food ethics, bioethics, worldviews, etc.  I find this energizing to hear different points of views on topics in their own right but also in relevance to the climate crisis.  I think that is how "May Meat Challenge" was motivated. 

I like to suggest two ideas for consideration:

First, I think it would a lot more constructive if we took up ideas, issues, etc. instead as "point of view" held by a certain individual. Our hope is for clarity, best understanding, and perhaps closer shared values between us.  This would make us work better together.  

Second, do you all have occasional "parties" "gatherings for personal socialization" or something along these lines?  I think such real human interactions are totally gone out of the social justice and ecology movements.  As you all know, there ample theoretical and historical reasons why radical mass movements of the past were built on such face-to-face interaction among the participants. 

Have a wonderful weekend,

Kamran

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Christopher Fisher

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Jun 2, 2018, 12:11:42 AM6/2/18
to Dave Molidor, Rebel Fagin, A.A. Nagy, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC, 'Kamal Prasad' via OSC - Earth Action Campaign
Thanks to Attila for noting the privilege, Rebel for reclaiming our humanity, and Larry for the whole paragraph. Well stated. 

Conscious social evolution sounds like a leisurely process. Moving to a less destructive food system most definitely is, particularly in a corporate consumer culture in decline.

Most of the humans on this planet do not live such privileged lives that they are able to choose their primary proteins and have this online conversation, which I very much appreciate, by the way. I've spent a great deal of time in Central America and plenty of poorer U.S. communities where they would have a good laugh at the notion that giving up animal husbandry is an option for those who practice it; nor would they agonize over which arguments carry moral weight with the vegan community.

I'm all for vastly reducing meat intake, boycotting factory farmed food (we have the means to do this and access to great farms and farmers in the North Bay, so we do so), and I can envision a time when when CAFOs could be outlawed. 

I get pretty excited about the interconnectedness of all things, so my carnivorous ways are of continuing concern to me. I do recognize the rights of all living creatures. But I also recognize that I am okay with the contradiction when I treat those creatures as my food. I'm leaning toward raising and slaughtering my own animals. I'd like to see us actually guarantee the rights of all our fellow humans before I begin losing too much sleep over our cows, pigs and chickens, but particularly those Palestinians and my long suffering friends and family in West Virginia.

'Monocrops are Murder', wrote Lierre Keith. If you're replacing protein for protein, where do you believe all that plant protein from former meat eaters is going to come from? Probably soy, but right now that replacement protein would definitely be some form of destructive, unsustainable industrial monocrop, so unless meat-free folks are simultaneously coming up with alternatives to industrial agriculture there's little room to claim the moral high ground. Guilt-tripping people is a dead letter in terms of organizing and attracting them to your cause, and will create as strong or stronger a reaction, while in the process failing to inform, educate or inspire.

We need millions of people to return to small-scale farming, with a social contract to feed their local communities and be guaranteed a livelihood in return. Unless, that is, someone has some kind of super cheap energy replacement for fossil fuels readily available. Many of those farmers will need to raise animals for meat and eggs and poop and myriad other purposes. If we're really going to mitigate climate change and grow healthier soil, you need lots and lots of ruminants taking a dump and trampling that shit into the earth. CAFOs produce far too much of it of course, but we need many pastured animals to create the enormous amounts of compost we'll need for large-scale soil building and carbon sequestration efforts.

¡todos por la paz!

Christopher


On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Dave Molidor <dave.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Veronica Jacobi

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Jun 2, 2018, 12:44:28 AM6/2/18
to Rebel Fagin, A A. Nagy, Dave Molidor, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC@googlegroups com, osc_earth-action@googlegroups com

Rebel, (I have stood for justice for Palestinians many times over many years.  (McGuire who I am running against voted against bds etc)). Some progressives expect other progressives to be perfect rather than respecting progress and people doing their best.  I've been Vegetarian for many years now.  Approximately 30years ago my cholesterol was so low a Dr. thought I was vegetarian because I was very close to meat free.  I ate meat very sparingly, but I was so conditioned by my upbringing that I would get a bad headache when I tried to quit completely.  I had to read Diet for a New America to feel like I wasn't going to be unhealthy quitting meat.  Progress not perfection. 
Kamal when I said not wasting meat I meant when someone else orders meat and will throw it out due to lack of getting to refrigeration in time.  I rarely have time to communicate as thoroughly as I would like to.  Xxxxoooo. Deep love and respect to all of you.  Usually when I have judged someone when I was younger, eventually I or someone I love walks in their shoes and then I understand...

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Merlin Davis

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Jun 2, 2018, 6:57:21 AM6/2/18
to Veronica Jacobi, Rebel Fagin, A A. Nagy, Dave Molidor, Larry Hanson, Tom Amato, Emerald, ClimateActivists-SC@googlegroups com, osc_earth-action@googlegroups com
I don't kill humans, and I've made it a practice not to kill animals either.  I'll put my life and health on the line for other people before I will other animals, but I do act to try to convince others to also give up both behaviors.

More general exploitation is trickier, particularly with people.  There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.  And I haven't gone quite so far as to become vegan either.

Anyway, how about a tease and an inspiring story about a vegan from our past?  You’ll Never Be as Radical as This 18th-Century Quaker Dwarf

Merlin

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