a paperless friendly version: Harlequin vs OpenToonz

[Matitanimata]

We have used Toonz since the early 2000 working on several tv series and shorts for the italian television, most of the works we made was in paperless (digital cut-out) I am very happy that it becomes open- source but I have to say that I'm not happy of many things that are different in OpenToonz, this is a traditional workflow-oriented version according the Studio Ghibli needings, I can understand it, but I think that nowadays the paperless workflow is really important.

I want to list them, I'd like to know if also other people agree with me, maybe I will add things on the way.

1) saving -  in harlequin when I save the scene I save ALL the scene: levels, palettes, etc... I think it's a crazy work to save every single element! We worked on scenes with thousands of levels, this is really a bad, bad thing!
2) keyframes - in harlequin I can set and see the keys directly on the X-sheet, I can move them and change the ease in and ease out in a click without digging in the schematic, this is a great timesaving feature
3) edit tool - the original edit tool is very smart, you can scale, rotate, deform the layer in a moment, there is no need to switch manually from Scale to rotate to shear etc...
4) onion skin - in Harlequin the onion skin is excellent, much better than any other software I know, toonboom included, you can manage it directly on the X-sheet with several options, my first impression is that in opentoonz is quite difficult to use
5) the rooms - in Harlequin you can create and  save new rooms customizing them as you wish
6) interface - many things that I can find and use in a click in Harlequin (the subsheets for example) now are a bit hidden in the menus.

[Natalie]

Perhaps Toonz Premium is more what you're looking for?

http://www.toonzpremium.com/#!toonz/gu6j1

Studio Ghibli is a traditional studio, artists looking to do the same might feel insulted if somebody suggests paperless is more important.

[Trygve Høiseth]

Everybody will benifit from these suggested improvements. I would think most users of OpenToons will not scan drawings, but rather use the drawing tools in the software, and supplement with importing drawings from other software, such as photoshop/clips studio paint etc.

[Matitanimata]

Natalie, I've never said that paperless is MORE important, just said that paperless is ALSO important, nobody should feel insulted, it's an obvious thing, Having used (and paid) Toonz for years (used for traditional also, since the version 4.6) I know that the features I've written on the list are already in Toonz Harlequin and they are very smart and effective, it means that at the end of the day you save a lot of time, and time is money in this work.
I'm not asking for new features, I'm asking for features that already exist so why can't we use them?

Toonz Premium is for big productions where you need also a support from digital video (the creators of toonz) but the software is almost the same.

(By the way, I am a big fan of mr Miyazaky and Studio Ghibli, and I wish to thank them and Dwango for this revolutionary step)

[Matitanimata]

I have to try in OpenToonz, but in harlequin you can import psd files and you can choose if import psd layers in different columns or as cels of the same column.

[Zachary Supina]

I know there is an awful lot of demand for OpenToonz to change direction towards a paperless-oriented design, but I personally hope that if features are added to be friendlier towards a paperless workflow, that the features tailored towards traditional hand-drawn animation stay. Yes, I have a WACOM tablet, and do some digital art. But I actually scan drawings, and animate the old-fashioned way.

[Matitanimata]

there is no need to drop the traditional oriented features, I'd just like to resume some features of harlequin that are very effective for paperless.
traditional, tradigital and digital cut-out can easily coexist, don't worry about that!

[JC]

I completely agree with the need for these features to be extended to OpenToonz, anyone who is in the field likes options, paperless workflow is a huge timesaving option, traditional animation holds a special place in most of our hearts and no one is advocating for the removal of the features within OpenToonz designed for that. But I for one would love to see OpenToonz be a software that is able to do both and not be solely specialized in one aspect of the art form.

[Herbert123]

We know know that the Japanese developer decided to cut and deactivate certain paperless features to simplify the GUI for Ghibli. Unfortunately, this means that a number of paperless functions are left in a semi-broken, or even broken state.
The main examples are:

• the mesh levels which cannot be saved when using the plastic tool;
• the missing key frames indicators in the x-sheet;
• the missing room creator GUI;
• not being able to set the number of output of nodes in the schematic view;
• the missing onion skinning in the x-sheet;
• the buttons to navigate across sub-xsheet hierarchies;
• and some other things relating to the nodes, causing the issue that levels cannot be attached to mesh bones created in the plastic tool's mesh mode (like holding an apple in a character's hand).

The programmer (Shun-Iwasawa) does not seem to be all too willing to restore ALL this functionality, or perhaps he will do so by introducing a toggle in the preferences, so that Ghibli can continue to work with the paper-based workflow. But he is going to at least restore the missing room editor, and the missing node hooks.

Here is the programmer's response:

Hello, thank you very much for comments.

I was in charge of development of Toonz Ghibli Edition.
OpenToonz is based on Toonz Ghibli Edition, which had been customized for production work in Studio Ghibli.
The customization was done on the basis of situations as follows:

• Each production workflow ( ink&paint, color design and composition ) is done by different staff in individual division.
• Animation was originally drawn on papers and converted to Toonz raster level in Toonz. (We did not draw vector-based animation, did not make cutout animation neither.)

Under the above situations, we decided to hide/remove some UI and functions from Toonz Harlequin in order to increase efficiency by limiting commands only related to each workflow.

Here are the examples:

1, We omitted a functions for create/delete rooms. Istead, we set ready-made room for each workflow which displays specialized menubar with necessary command set. (* For now, the specialized menubar is only available in Windows version.)

2, We removed buttons for moving across sub-xsheet hierarchy in the menubar. Because this UI is rarely used in ink&paint or color design work, and also because it was, in our thought, not so much inportant function as occupying large space in the menu bar area. Instead of it, a text "(Sub)" is displayed in the title bar of Xsheet panel for showing whether you are in sub or parent xsheet. Moving accross sub-xsheet is available with the cammands in context menu of Xsheet.

3, We removed "column keys"(keys displayed in xsheet columns) feature. Because setting the key on some xsheet cell causes setting keys for all of transformation parameters (n/s, e/w, scale etc.) of the column. Which was, in our thought, quite difficult to deal with. And also with this UI user may modify the positions of keys by mistake while placing levels in xsheet. So we decided to display all parameter keys only in the function editor panel.

4, Regarding the output port of stage schematic node, we did two changes for simplification:

• Ports with letters (A,B,C...) means the amount of 8-inch-horizontal offset from the original position (with letter "B"). We removed this feature since it is less flexible than doing the same thing using pegbars.
• Ports with numbers (1,2,3...) are for the Hook tool. We kept it alive, but very poorly... When you add a hook, new port will be added just below the original port with no number displayed. This is mainly because Ghibli did not use Hook tool in production and put less priority for modify it.

OpenToonz has some changes other than listed above and we suppose that "original" Toonz users may feel a confusion about it. Please let us mention again that such changes were done as the result of reflecting local inputs from Studio Ghibli and other Japanese animation productions.

For this reason, we think that just reverting the Harlequin's UI is not the best way at this time. If you would like to revert these UIs, we think there must be a option (in preferences) for adding them or not.
We sincerely appreciate your continuous support and advice for making the better software.

Anyway, I will try to revert create/delete rooms feature and will try to modify stage schematic port for Hook tool.

Thanks.

[Matitanimata]

yes, could be a great idea to have a switch button for "ghibli" or "paperless" mode, I really hope that they will.

[Todor Imreorov]

You and me both. If not then we should consider that opentoonz is open source now - so anyone can fork it and make a more powerful version that is designed to equally serve both traditional and paperless pipelines.

[Julio Miró]

Herbert 123 please send this to Mr Shun-Iwasawa and collegues in Dwango :). Why to put doors to the field ?

... not sure if worth it to start now to learning Open Toonz, or to wait to this switch to choose between Traditional/Paperless animation workflow.

Update : 27-04-16 : of course I am studying OT !!!

[Alon Dan]

I agree with the excellent features requests that are not yet appears in the OpenToonz version, I'm also a tradigital animator (paperless) for many years and know how the saving are slowing the workflow and may cause problems on some project if you accidently forgot to save one of the elements.

I believe the reason they've released OpenToonz for free is to make some noise to the world, and so far it works great more people hear about OpenToonz for the first time, they get lots of downloads and expossure... while let's not forget that their real goal is to also let people know about their Premium version of Toonz which will make them earn money.

So, the question is:

If they want people to buy the Premium version of Toonz with all these wonderful features and more friendly UI and workflow compare to OpenToonz...  why should they put these features from the Premium to OpenToonz?   people won't need to purchase the Premium if OpenToonz will have most of the features we really want, right?

The other question is:

Since OpenToonz is open source... maybe they (the makers of Toonz) gave us the Ghibli version as a starting point... and if we'll have the right developers to improve OpenToonz from version 1.0 and up... it may even be stronger and better than their Premium version?  

I've followed the evolution of Blender since a very early version, I couldn't even use it or want to use it... it was trrible they UI was super unfriendly and during the years it evolve and got much more friendly, once I got into version 2.5 it looked totally different and it was MUCH easier to work with, today is my favorite open source 3D tool.

I wish the same will happen to OpenToonz... we just need MORE lovely developers to help us out add the amazing features we need for more friendly GUI, Saving system, Timeline (we need an additional next to the X-Sheet), and Rooms control.

There are many other features that I would love to see in the evolution of OpenToonz, but for now I'm trying to learn how the basics works.  I'm very thankful for this release and thankful for the creators who gave us this starting point version.

I'm talking more about it in this video:  CLICK TO PLAY  (YouTube)

* Sorry about my bad English

[yvancster]

If the guys at opentoonz team doesn't like paperless for opentoonz, we are free to fork the project aiming towards paperless right?

[Marcus Goller]

I think creating a fork will make it harder to maintain for everyone.

I am pretty sure, traditional and paperless workflow can be covered with some thought and agreement of which features should be easily customizable.

So from my point of view, a practical approach would be:

1) get a list a changed features, confirmed by Ghibli.
2) assign priorities of which features should be worked on first
3) decide weather a certain feature needs a dedicated on/off preference switch (for example it might be useful to be able to decide if keys are shown in the X-sheet, independent of other enabled GUI changes)

Adding the keyframes back in the X-sheet for example is relatively trivial and seems to work ok as far as I have seen, but before starting to propose any changes, it would be good to agree on a structured and common approach.

Just my 2 cents. ;-)

[Dragoș Ștefan]

while let's not forget that their real goal is to also let people know about their Premium version of Toonz which will make them earn money.

So, the question is:

If they want people to buy the Premium version of Toonz with all these wonderful features and more friendly UI and workflow compare to OpenToonz...  why should they put these features from the Premium to OpenToonz?   people won't need to purchase the Premium if OpenToonz will have most of the features we really want, right?

This makes no sense, Dwango/Ghibli (OpenToonz) and Digital Video (Toonz/Toonz Premium) are completely separate entities. If someone decides to buy Toonz Premium, this will make no money for Dwango.

Dwango opens-ourced their version (Toonz Ghibli Edition) while Digital Video pushes forward with their proprietary one.

[Dragoș Ștefan]

There's no need to fork, the features are there and will be exposed (either by the Dwango/Ghibli programmers or by the community). The software will evolve, there's no need for a separate version.

[Julio Miró]

" Through OpenToonz, Dwango will create a platform that will aim to have research labs and the animated film industry actively cooperating with each other."

Font : http://media.wix.com/ugd/591c30_13b0dffaebae401e84c99a3bee0d2351.pdf

... This seems to be the plan. The idea of to make OpenTonnz able to swich between Paper and Paperless animation workflow, looks coherent with the aim of arrive to "all" the animated film industry.

[Julio Miró]

I see there some analogies with the -also japanese Co.- Medibang : http://medibangpaint.com/en/ This is a free tool that allow to create and plublish comics in the cloud.

 

[Todor Imreorov]

 

Shun Iwasawa has just made a pull request that fixes this issue:

https://github.com/opentoonz/opentoonz/commit/49ff76e3d351ffb5638d370503a56fa620223117

He also made that awesome baby finally reach for an apple!

https://github.com/opentoonz/opentoonz/issues/108#issuecomment-205234261

[Juls_3000]

[Todor Imreorov]

I do not think that they want to bring back the keyframes to the x-sheet though. :(

[Juls_3000]

why not ?

[BlenderBeetle]

if they do bring it back there has to be an option to toggle it on and off. that would be extremely annoying visually and serves no purpose for those of us that are doing frame by frame animation. 

[Dimitrije Mihajlovic]

That doesn't make any sense. If you wouldn't use keyframes, then they wouldn't bother you anyway. Keyframes would only appear when you animate values on columns. 

[BlenderBeetle]

I'm not opposed to them at all, i think it would be a good addition. 

[BlenderBeetle]

by the way, my post made sense to me until i reread it, and i agree... not sure what i was thinking but it doesn't make sense anymore lol

[Dimitrije Mihajlovic]

Ahah, sure. It did sound weird :P

[Juls_3000]

I think the keyframes in "x-sheet" is one of the main differences between being able to say that OpenToonz is, or is not, really suitable for paperless animation workflow. It would be like a 4x4, you have the mechanics necessary for the road and the field, but they have blocked the lever to change modes. Unreasonable waste :) . 

[Juls_3000]

I wish someone told me about a paperless animation software not displaying keyframes on his timeline.

Mr Nobuo Kawakami, Chairman and CTO at Dwango, added:

"It is a great honour for us to be able to release OpenToonz as open source software.

We’d like to express our deepest appreciation to Digital Video and Studio Ghibli for their help and support We hope the high-quality software that meets the demands of animation professionals will contribute to revitalizing the animation industry. Dwango will also utilize OpenToonz in order to present its research and development results."

(Source : http://media.wix.com/ugd/591c30_13b0dffaebae401e84c99a3bee0d2351.pdf)

... all animation professionals or just "step by step" animation professionals ?

[Dragoș Ștefan]

It's not clear for me what people expect with all this continuous complaining (that does nothing, btw).

What Dwango released is EXACTLY what they said they will: the Ghibli Edition of Toonz.

The fact that this edition doesn't correspond to some people's vision of a 2D animation package is not Dwango's problem.

Take it or leave it. The world is full of options, from commercial Toonz to ToonBoom, TV Paint etc.

Or get involved in the community development in a constructive way that looks towards future development instead of constant moaning about the fact that Ghibli's workflow and priorities somehow are not identical to yours.

[Juls_3000]

IMHO is not matter of software, is matter of coherence.

Really you can say timeline (or Xsheet) to one thing with hidden keyframes ???

[Brian C. Morris]

I don't think paperless or traditional is the main issue. Some of the features in the current release make it very inconvenient for both types of animation, and the save command is just broke!
Even the "Toonz Ghibli Edition" programmer didn't say that having to save each level separately (or lose work) was a feature.
For me the most important features that need to be implemented or fixed are the keyframes in XSheet and the "Save" command. I don't see how these would interfere with a traditional workflow. Just add an "Global toggle" option as in Toonz or an "off toggle" for people that don't want to see keyframes.
The rest of the issues mention by Matitanimata have simple work-arounds.

[Natalie]

I agree with Stefan.

I understand people want their free copy of Harmony, but this software was optimized by Studio Ghibli for a frame-by-frame workflow, it makes no sense to undo those changes for the sake of having yet another program suited for cutout and rig animation, software for which come a dime a dozen both free and affordable. If that does happen then it must be user optional else you'll just make it harder to use for frame-by-frame animators.

Personally, keyframes in the x-sheet will be distracting. I'm not saying don't bring it back, I'm saying let it be optional.

[Juls_3000]

Yes it is, save all at once and visible keyframes on Xsheet (optional, or not), come before any other consideration.

Not improvements,or modifications: finishings.

[Marcus Goller]

Getting the keyframes to show up on the XSheet is really trivial to do in the code. I do not know if there is more to it, because I have not figured out yet if I am supposed to be able to move them in the XSheet. Anyhow, I do not think this is really an issue to get implemented with an option to enable and disable it.

[yvancster]

I said it before and I'm saying it again, we are free to fork this software to fit our needs. That's the beauty of open source.

[Gabriel de la Cruz]

Features missing in opensource... is not that rare, sometimes a community builds the software from the scratch making everything available, sometimes a company open-sources and then offers a supported version on the side. Opentoonz happens to be an impressive workhorse and it is rare to see such a professional software opened up this way. So with paperless features or without them, this release is quite large. And I guess the paid version will be still below the rates of the other commercial alternatives.

Opensource is very valuable, not only because it simplifies customisation (compared to the obscure scripting in Harmony, Opentoonz is very sweet) but because of peace of mind. When Audodesk Discontinued Softimage (I used it 5 years), and then discontinued the upgrades to Maya (I used it for 10 years!) and then pushed everybody into subscription I had no other option but to quit and find another software (I coded so many plugins!, what a waste). But it was a very different situation when Oracle bought Sun and discontinued OpenSolaris, the community made a fork and saved the day (I use it with image databases and storage). So opensouce is the biggest peace of mind for me.

Corporate mergers are a nightmare for very small studios but look at Toonz, the outcome cannot be better than this. :)

I managed to own 2 permanent licenses of the expensive flavour of Harmony because of the rent-to-own model TB was offering, and I currently can afford to upgrade one of those licenses. but now that they moved to either subscription or a big one time payment things get far less scalable. If TZ paid version can be used along with the open one... looks like a good scenario. As well when TB hired a chairman who already sold a company to Autodesk got goosebumps all over. Phew...

When I see all the code at hand, I see a safe heaven where to invest my skills and time without being afraid of the next merger. 

Looking forward to see what the supported version has to offer.

[liumx...@gmail.com]

I agreed with Gabriel. I like harmony, but some problems are really hard to fix with a close source software. It crashes sometimes and without source code I can't tell where goes wrong. The autosave saves me a lot but it can't save everything. I also hate the performance issue of the vector layer. I can't sketch freely because it quickly becomes slow when too many strokes there. Also tried TVP, a good raster animation editor. The UI/tool style is a bit odd and the line & fill quality is not good enough.

Finally I decided to write my own animation editor. I've spent two years on building my app to support paperless anime style workflow. I completed most features I want:
smooth lines with tablet, auto fill without lost pixels, GPU accelerated render engine, and node based composition system.

Until recently I found opentoonz, a full featured animation software! Now I can learn more about vector graphics!

[Adam Earle]

If this was a ploy to get people to buy the premium version than I think i would rather spend my on deving out Blender. Believing blender would have lot more opportunity for success.

[Juls_3000]

Matitanimata here you can help:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/opentoonz_en/uhNUVvTEaEE/Jdqbi61lAwAJ

[Princess of Power Lady80]

I want some paperless features for OpenToonz too. I think having both a traditional and paperless workflow would be beneficial to all users.

[Herbert123]

@Princess of Power Lady80: just about all the paperless features of Toonz Harlequin/Premium are now restored in OpenTOonz v1.0.3

[Matitanimata]

this new version seems to complete my wish list, now it's really paperless friendly, great step forward!

[Herbert123]

The only thing missing is the direct manipulator widget. I believe that is being worked on, though.

[Juls_3000]

What is that ?

[Herbert123]

@juls_3000: Refer to this: https://github.com/opentoonz/opentoonz/issues/157

[Juls_3000]

Oh yeah, after OT v 1.0.3. this manipulator widget will be the "icing on the cake". I give it my support on GitHub.