Strong's parsing?

[Nathan Bierma]

I stumbled onto qbible.com, which displays (among many other things) Hebrew text with inline verb (partial) parsing, apparently via Strong's. Verbs are displayed with multiple inline Strong's numbers: one for the root and another for the grammatical stem and mood. For instance, in Gen 1:2 (http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/genesis/1.html#1), the verb 'merachephet' has two superscripts: #7363 for the root and 'z8764' for 'piel participle' (whose entry at http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/8764.html in turn links to #8840 for piel and #8813 for participle). I notice I can get these grammatical entries, starting at H8680, in the old version of the NET (e.g.  http://classic.net.bible.org/strong.php?id=8764 ), though not the inline parsing. Meanwhile, most other online instances of Strong's L/C stop at H8674. (Similarly Greek entries stop before a range of grammatical entries at G5627+ .)

The significance is that this is the only freely available (partially) parsed Hebrew text I know of. My questions are, did Strong parse this text, or if someone else did are the parsings and grammatical glossary in the public domain? Is there any database or structured markup with this data? Googling around got me dead ends, and Qbible's ownership/affiliation isn't given. Could this be a starting point or reference for the current morphhb / openscriptures-hb project? Granted that if this data is as old as Strong it will have flaws. But it could be nice to have something to fall back on in the meantime. 

Thanks,

Nathan

Nathan Bierma

Educational Technologist

Calvin Theological Seminary

[David Troidl]

There was some discussion about this on the SWORD development list some time back.  The numbers appeared in the KJV module at that time.  As I recall the usage of the interpretations was restricted.

As for qbible.com, if there is no indication of who is putting it out, or where they got their texts, I would avoid using them.

David

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[Nathan Bierma]

OK, some digging in Sword forums shows that the Strong's ranges H8675-H8853 and G5625-G5944 are called TVM (as in tense, voice, and mood) and were developed by Larry Pierce of the Online Bible. There is a Logos module called Tense Voice Mood 2.0 , and while there are some Sword modules available with TVM info, one module distributor says that he has stopped distributing it after learning that TVM is not in the public domain (http://www.doctordavet.com/kjvtvm.html). 

So the TVM data itself seems legit but its use by qbible and Sword modules does not. I wonder if it's worth contacting Larry Pierce to confirm or clarify. Of course, once MorphHB exists, it will be a moot point. 

Nathan

[Nathan Bierma]

Here is the credit that appears on the BibleWorks credits page (http://www.bibleworks.com/bw9help/bwh47_Copyrights.htm):

" KJV, KJA, KJG - Authorized Version (KJV) - 1769 Blayney Edition of the 1611 King James Version of the English Bible - with Larry Pierce's Englishman's-Strong's Numbering System, ASCII version.  Copyright © 1988-1997 by the Online Bible Foundation and Woodside Fellowship of Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research. Used by permission.   Most KJV machine-readable texts (MRTs) are derived from the University of Pennsylvania CCAT (Center for Computer Analysis of Texts). CCAT obtained their KJV MRT from Brigham Young University Humanities Research Center. This text has been collated in part with another KJV MRT provided by Zondervan Bible Publishers. Using a closely similar KJV MRT obtained from Public Brand Software, Larry Pierce and his volunteer associates at Woodside Fellowship and elsewhere corrected the available KJV MRT to match exactly the British 1769 Blayney Edition of the KJV Authorized Version as printed by Cambridge University Press, claimed to be the most accurate standard. The KJV Apocrypha, which was part of the 1611 edition, is included as version KJA but is not tagged with Strong's numbers. There are two Strong's number databases in BibleWorks, one that originated with Online Bible and is tied to the KJV, and another which is a part of the NASB collection. Lockman modified the Strong's numbers for their own purposes but they are very close to the old Strong's numbers. The NASB Strong's data is used only with NAS/NAU. The OLB data is used everywhere else.  "

[David Troidl]

Thanks, Nathan, for the research.  Being under copyright, and used by license, puts it outside the intent of our work.  Even the CCAT texts are touchy, because of the license terms.  The basis of our efforts is to have a truly open text.

David

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

Nathan Bierma
>... the BibleWorks credits page
>(<http://www.bibleworks.com/bw9help/bwh47_Copyrights.htm>http://www.bibleworks.com/bw9help/bwh47_Copyrights.htm

>" KJV, KJA, KJG - Authorized Version (KJV) - 1769 Blayney Edition of

>the 1611 King James Version of the English Bible - .... corrected

>the available KJV MRT to match exactly the British 1769 Blayney
>Edition of the KJV Authorized Version as printed by Cambridge
>University Press, claimed to be the most accurate standard.

Steven Avery
The 1769 Benjamin Blayney (1728-1801) edition from Clarendon Press
was an Oxford University Press edition, in line with the Blayney
report to Hertford College (Oxford). The 1769 Cambridge editions
were directly based on an earlier text of Francis Sawyer Parris
(1707-1760) and possibly the 1762 Thomas Paris edition. Blayney
worked with these earlier texts, however his edition had its own
unique aspects and was from the Oxford Press, not the Cambridge Press
(although in later years it is possible that Cambridge used the 1769
Blayney Oxford edition).

While I personally do not consider either of these editions as
authoritative (although they are historically significant) it is
clear that BibleWorks is not accurate on some basics.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
Bayside, NY

[Chris Little]

On 5/10/2013 8:45 AM, Nathan Bierma wrote:
> OK, some digging in Sword forums shows that the Strong's ranges
> H8675-H8853 and G5625-G5944 are called TVM (as in tense, voice, and
> mood) and were developed by Larry Pierce of the Online Bible. There is a
> Logos module called Tense Voice Mood 2.0 , and while there are some
> Sword modules available with TVM info, one module distributor says that
> he has stopped distributing it after learning that TVM is not in the
> public domain (http://www.doctordavet.com/kjvtvm.html).
>
> So the TVM data itself seems legit but its use by qbible and Sword
> modules does not. I wonder if it's worth contacting Larry Pierce to
> confirm or clarify. Of course, once MorphHB exists, it will be a moot
> point.

Could you be so kind as to not make accusations about copyright
infringement on the part of CrossWire / The SWORD Project? You're
welcome to pose questions to us about particular content as quite a few
CrossWire people are on the OS list. But when you make statements like
the above about non-'legit' content in Sword, I at least am going to
call you out for your clueless slander.

There's nothing to own about TVM codes themselves. They're simply a
mapping between numerical values and particular morphological feature
sets. CrossWire has very few Bibles that are actually marked with TVM
codes. We don't go out of our way to add TVM codes, but we also don't
remove them if they're present.

Our Robinson morphology database includes TVM codes as aliases for
Robinson codes. That is to say, if you look up a TVM code, it will show
the entry for the corresponding Robinson code. The Robinson database is
CC by-sa licensed, so OpenScriptures folks are welcome to use it,
provided they abide by the license. (The license is basically there to
prevent Rick Meyers of e-Sword from ripping the current version of the
database off without attribution and locking it up with encryption, as
he does with the older version, which I believe he renamed RMAC.)

--Chris

[Darrell Smith]

Thank you Chris for setting things straight. It's much better to light a candle than grumble in the dark.

 

!

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From: Chris Little <chri...@crosswire.org>
To: openscr...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Strong's parsing?

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[Nathan Bierma]

Let me hasten to say I didn't mean to make accusations; I was summarizing what I found when I started looking into this. The information was and remains a little murky to me, but I said it appeared that the TVM mapping was developed by Larry Pierce and was under copyright, and another source within the Sword community said that TVM mapping could no longer be reused. I was careful to say that based on this information it "appeared" that reuse was not legitimate. But I hope I sounded as tentative about this as I really was. 

In any case, I'm very happy to be corrected, both because it's good to be correct, and because the more that is open, the better! I will certainly look into the Robinson database and its license. I also hope to gain a better understanding of exactly what Pierce did and did not do, especially in relation to that very turgid BibleWorks credit, and what is protected/prohibited and what is not. I worry that the very murkiness of the origins and licenses of some of these resources could discourage both efforts to protect them and efforts to promote their open use. Clarifying which deserves which benefits all. 

(Sorry, too, if this has thread has become more Sword-related than OS-related. However, if there's an open license on Robinson morphology I think that's of interest to OS folk, at least until MorphHB is available.)

Apologies again to Sword folk, for whom I have nothing but admiration and appreciation. I assure you it was ignorance and not malice. 

Nathan

[Daniel Bearden]

Hopefully I can shed a little more light on the Greek TVM portion.

G5801-G5877 are synonyms and quotes from Thayer's.

G5878-G5899 and G5905-G5944 are from George Ricker Berry's New Testament Synonyms.

I have personally typed up Berry's New Testament Synonyms from facsimile's on Google Books and the Internet Archive and made it available for viewing here: http://studybible.info/berry/ I can send anyone the database if they would like it.