Peter's Feeders

[Peter Betz]

Saying the subject line out loud makes me laugh.

Ok, here is some rough work I am doing towards a feeder design. Seems like there are lots of people out there trying to get things to work without having a stepper in each feed module. I get that, but I'm not liking it. This is more of the approach Anthony had with his PnP design, not looking to make the simplest or cheapest option, but I want it to be reliable and functional.

These use the robotdigg stirrer steppers.

Here is what I have so far:

The idea is to have a laser cut gear that meshes with the module stepper gear, then mate that with the gear that will engage the feeder holes, again, laser cut. One significant issue is the feed holes are only 1.5mm in diameter so the little teeth are only capable of being 1mm thick. Ponoko has nothing in 1mm, so it would be 0.8mm Delrin.... not sure how that would work out. Pretty thin!

Here is the gear arrangement:

Obvious problems that need more work:

- This would work for flat cut tape, I need to consider deeper tapes, but the gear arrangement is pretty much perfect and I don't think we want it taller. So I may move the tape gear to the other side of the stepper to allow a pocket right beside it for tray type feed tape.

- Height, not sure what our limits are here for this.

- Hole detection. Yes or no. Was thinking optical hole detection but this would add size or complexity. I was thinking that the steps per part could be set and then the new vision after so many parts thing could be used here.....

- Tape return channel. And cover tape, although I might just do weights to start.....

This is just a rough idea, getting it down on paper so-to-speak, to help the ideas flow.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Hey Peter,

Here's some thoughts, ideas and general musings. This is a topic that I am very interested in and have spent a little bit of time thinking about. I have my own idea for a feeder that shares some similarities here, but I have not yet had time to work on it. Anyway...

I think the open loop stepper is fine. If you are using a stepper and have adequate torque and resolution I don't think you need hole detection. One thing that would be good is making sure that at least one hole in the tape can be "seen" by the top camera in case you do want to do visual correction, but I really don't think it will be required.

My only concern with the stepper is that it's single source and could disappear. Just something to keep in mind.

For the feed sprocket, you might check out http://lasergist.com/design-guidelines/. They do stainless laser cutting in a variety of thicknesses. I wrote that URL down when I was researching sprocket manufacturing a while back. That being said, I think Delrin would probably do the trick although 1mm could be somewhat fragile. Stainless would definitely be better.

I think laser cutting the sprocket and gears and then binding them is a great way to go. I'm intending to do the same in my design.

You'll definitely want to put some thought into part depth and also tape thickness. Embossed tape is thinner than paper tape so you don't want it flopping around in the feeder. 

And please, don't do weights for cover pull. If you are going to go to the effort of designing a feeder please make cover tape just as high a priority as feeding. You can't really do one without the other and weights are a poor substitute for a proper mechanism.

In the interest of spurring conversation, here's the basic outline of what I've been thinking about for a feeder. I don't bring this up to convince you to use it instead or anything, but just to keep the ideas flowing. You are more than welcome to use any, all or none of these ideas as long the result is open source :)

* 3D printed body.

* Laser cut stainless drive sprocket.

* Laser cut main gear bound to drive sprocket.

* Two plastic gears meshing with a small gap to pull on cover tape.

* Additional laser cut gearing to produce drive power to the cover tape pulling gears.

* Cheap as hell worm drive motor mated to the main gear. Something like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-12-24V-Mini-DC-13500RPM-Speed-1-5mm-Dia-Shaft-Magnetic-Electric-Worm-Motor-/391298769464?hash=item5b1b396238. In bulk you can get these for pennies.

* Opto interruptor that is interrupted by the teeth of the drive sprocket.

* Spring loaded tape hold down mechanism, keeping the tape tight against the sprocket no matter it's thickness.

* RS-485 or CAN interface.

* Pogo pins for power and communication.

The basic idea is that using the worm drive motor gets us lots of torque at a low enough speed to work with and the opto lets us index the sprocket very precisely without having to use an expensive stepper or control circuitry. The control circuit is pretty much just a transistor, although to interface there will likely be a tiny microcontroller on board.

Hope that's helpful, and thanks for getting this conversation started! I think a reliable automated feeder is the next BIG thing we need!

Jason

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[Mike Harrison]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 16:04:54 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>
>Saying the subject line out loud makes me laugh.
>
>Ok, here is some rough work I am doing towards a feeder design. Seems like
>there are lots of people out there trying to get things to work without
>having a stepper in each feed module. I get that, but I'm not liking it.
>This is more of the approach Anthony had with his PnP design, not looking
>to make the simplest or cheapest option, but I want it to be reliable and
>functional.
>
>

I must say l've never been convinced of the viability of sprocket wheels - are there any commercial
machines that use them? if not that's probably for good reason.

Paper and plastic tapes behave somewhat differently, and tape bounce on plastic is a major issue,
more so as parts get smaller - you barely need to look at an 0402 LED to make it bounce out.
I think plastic would need very careful design of tooth shape and wheel diameter. Maybe also guiding
of the tape in a slot to minimise vertical movement - this slot would need to be too small to
accommodate paper tape, so at the very least would need to be adjustable.

Another issue is that paper can be abrasive, which may limit lifetime - may or may not be an issue.
You also need to consider paper dust, so it's good to avoid the need for oil or other lubricant, as
this will form a sticky gunk when paper powder gets to it.

I suspect the optimum wheel diameter and tooth shape may be different for paper and plastic - not
necessarily a show-stopper if you need different wheels for the two, but not ideal.

Given the one motor per lane approach, I wonder if some clever linkage design could produce
something closer to the ideal up-along-down action of a round pin.

[Jason von Nieda]

Mike, as far as I know every commercial feeder system in the world uses a sprocket for drive. Have you seen examples otherwise?

Jason

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[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 00:57:32 +0000, you wrote:

>Mike, as far as I know every commercial feeder system in the world uses a
>sprocket for drive. Have you seen examples otherwise?

I've not looked closely enough at many higher end ones, but all the pics I've seen look a lot more
complex than they would be if the main drive mechanism was only a simple sprocket wheel - there is
clearly a lot more to it, and not just the cover tape peeling aspect..

Maybe it would be useful if people here who have experimented with commercial feeders could share
some details about how they work to see if any useful ideas can be borrowed.

[Jason von Nieda]

Mike,

There's some pictures here of the Neoden 4 feeder, which I bought and took apart: http://imgur.com/a/osEGC

In the 5 years I've been working on OpenPnP I've looked at hundreds of (pictures of) feeders and I've never seen one that didn't use a sprocket, so I'll be very interested if others have had different experiences. 

I've always been a bit confused by the complexity you see in commercial feeders, too. A quick Google image search shows a crazy variety of them and many of them look incredibly complex: https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1837&bih=1290&q=smt+feeder&oq=smt+feeder&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l5.3152.4057.0.4170.10.7.0.3.3.0.114.603.5j2.7.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.10.605.Wr1o9g0PeSI#imgrc=hlyEzBlnfltkrM%3A

I have a theory about the complexity. I believe that the vast majority of these feeders are driven by one or two pneumatic pistons and I think that much of the complexity comes from converting that bit of linear motion into all the various other motions required to feed and retract the cover tape. Many of the commercial feeders I've seen also include a little sliding window that covers the part until after the feeder has finished feeding and peeling the cover tape. This keeps the part from jumping out of it's pit during the feed operation.

In any case, I'd love to hear from some folks who have experience with commercial feeding systems. I'm sure we can learn a lot!

Jason

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[Mike Harrison]

Some random thoughts :

For single-lane feeders a major issue is availability of suitably slim motors. One possible
alternative to a thin stepper might be a DC motor (shaft parallel to tape) with a worm gear - this
would probably get to a suitable speed with no more than one extra gear between the worm and
whatever is driving the tape.

Another issue is that any extra width above the tape width impacts the number of feeders that fit
in a given space.

There are a number of advantages to going for a multi-lane feeder module - more space for motors,
possibility to share hardware (e.g. common cover tape peel motor with slipping clutches for each
lane) , and potential for lane width flexibility, along with obvious cost benefits in sharing
control electronics and connectors.
Also potentially less wasted space.

If you had a multi-lane feeder that would take something of the order of 4 lanes of 8mm, then that
width would also potentially accommodate different permutations of up to 24mm by simply omitting
parts.
I'm envisaging something like lane dividers that can be moved (slid or locked into preset hole
positions), and drive mechanisms that can either move as a whole, or be slid along drive shafts to
get into the right place.
or at the very least use as many common parts as possible to assemble a dedicated permutation..

There are also disadvantages, like not being able to fit & remove pre-loaded single lanes, and
maybe having to unload multiple lanes for access to clear a bad jam (been there, done that!). the 10
lane feeders my Versatronics uses is definitely far too many.

Considering that this is already a fairly hard problem, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to
make it even harder by trying to squeeze the solution down to a size that 's sensible for a single
lane 8mm feeder, and needs significantly different parts to be made for different feeder widths.

As soon as you go over around 3-4 lanes of 8mm, the cost advantages start diminishing and
flexibility reduces.
I'd sugggest that the optimum module width is something wide enough to allow for :
3 or 4 x 8mm
12+8,
12+16
12+12
maybe 16+16
1x 24mm
(I think I have seen 32mm and over, but we're getting into the realm of fairly obscure parts.)

[Mike Harrison]

>I think the open loop stepper is fine. If you are using a stepper and have
>adequate torque and resolution I don't think you need hole detection.

yes - as long as the stepper+mechanism is an exact multiple of 4mm that would be fine.

One issue with a bunch of feeders with steppers is static power and heat - you'd definitely want to
reduce current to a low holding value when not moving.

[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 02:03:47 +0000, you wrote:

>
>>I think the open loop stepper is fine. If you are using a stepper and have
>>adequate torque and resolution I don't think you need hole detection.
>
>yes - as long as the stepper+mechanism is an exact multiple of 4mm that would be fine.

actually ideally 2mm, as some 0402s have 2mm part pitch, though with 4mm indexing you could handle
it by offsetting the pick position every other part

[Peter Betz]

Excellent discussion.

Jason, I really like your points! I like the thought of going with a motor instead of a stepper. My only concern is those motors are rated for 13,500 RPM, will they have any torque at a more reasonable speed??

About widths, I imagine just having that modified by the back case. So if you want a wider feeder you just print a new case.

If we can narrow down on a motor I would be happy to start making the changes! Or at least verifying we think the ones you pointed out would work. We could have one stage of reduction as well in there before the big sprocket.

Exciting!

I am out of town but my linear rails showed up and my wide just told me that my 120 items from robotdigg showed up too!!!

Peter.

[Peter Betz]

Interesting idea mike.... It makes a lot of sense..... One circuit board to drive all the motors and watch all the opto's.

I will think about this as we move forward.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Hey Peter, yea that motor speed is not ideal. I am away from my computer right now but when I get back ill send some links to some alternate motors I found. I think the ticket will be the tiny gear head motors that are all over eBay. I picked up some 100 and some 60 rpm ones that are really strong for a few bucks. Had forgotten about that till your message reminded me :)

Jason

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[Jason von Nieda]

Here's the motor I was referring to. I think these might be ideal. They are tiny, strong and cheap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/311331749282?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Jason

[DAniel Dumitru]

Even if is off topic I like the simplicity of smd-taxi.ru feeders

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smdtaxi.ru

I think that this is more clear :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8PXKQUdgVc

I will try to do something similar

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[Jason von Nieda]

Hard to argue with the simplicity there. I believe mojalovaa uses a similar feeder system.

Jason

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[Anthony Webb]

I've see the manually actuated ones before (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcUowL68EA) but I still cant wrap my head around the mechanics exactly.

I agree with Jason, nailing this would be HUGE.  My brain is turning as well, good discussion here.

[Jason von Nieda]

Anthony,

The way it works is that there is a spring loaded arm with a tip that can fit in the tape hole. The spring is pulling this down, towards the tape. There is also a spring that causes the large lever to return towards the inside of the machine when pushed back. So, the head pushes the lever back causing the arm tip to ride up and out of the hole it's sitting in, slides back over the tape and falls into the next hole. As the head moves back the spring on the lever pulls the lever and the arm forward, advancing the tape.

I'm not sure how it handles cover tape.

Jason

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:30 PM Anthony Webb <anthon...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've see the manually actuated ones before (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcUowL68EA) but I still cant wrap my head around the mechanics exactly.

I agree with Jason, nailing this would be HUGE.  My brain is turning as well, good discussion here.

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[Rich Obermeyer]

We have seen this posted here twice before.  Got lots to see.

It looks like a simple drag feeder but without the accuracy requirements.

Should work with any width tape.  No electronics to break or write code for!

I wonder if it needs and calibration?

Let's not forget to look at the auto nozzle changer.

Interesting it uses an up camera for alignment but only for some parts.

It does resistance checks on some components too.  I like this!

We could learn a lot from analyzing this machines features and extracting some useful discussions.

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[Michael Anton]

I actually ordered some sprockets for the feeder I'm working on from lasergist.com.  They were not exactly pretty.  I suspect that the machine used to cut them has some backlash in one axis.  So the smooth parts between the teeth, had lumps in them, probably  from coming around a corner.  These got progressively worse at the 90 deg point, and then started to smooth out again.  I never contacted them about it.  They were cheap though, and the teeth came out nice.

Any of the designs that I've seen that use sprockets, always have the tape wrapped around the sprocket for a bit.  Likely a straight path does not work that well, since there is so little tape engagement.

Jason, most of your wish list mirrors my own, well except for the cover tape pulling method.

Mike

[Michael Anton]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 6:55:18 PM UTC-6, mikeselectricstuff wrote:

I must say l've never been convinced of the viability of sprocket wheels - are there any commercial
machines that use them? if not that's probably for good reason.

Yes, most of the ones I've seen, and certainly the machine I run does.  Sprockets are available in multiple manufacturer's styles from China, so they must be in use by others.

 

Paper and plastic tapes behave somewhat differently, and tape bounce on plastic is a major issue,
more so as parts get smaller - you barely need to look at an 0402 LED to make it bounce out.
I think plastic would need very careful design of tooth shape and wheel diameter. Maybe also guiding
of the tape in a slot to minimise vertical movement - this slot would need to be too small to
accommodate paper tape, so at the very least would need to be adjustable.

Spring loading to account for tape thickness is desirable, and also helps keep the tape from bouncing.

Another issue is that paper can be  abrasive, which may limit lifetime - may or may not be an issue.
You also need to consider paper dust, so it's good to avoid the need for oil or other lubricant, as
this will form a sticky gunk when paper powder gets to it.

I suspect the optimum wheel diameter and tooth shape may be different for paper and plastic - not
necessarily a show-stopper if you need different wheels for the two, but not ideal.

Not that I've seen.  The same sprocket tooth profile can be used for both.

 

Given the one motor per lane approach, I wonder if some clever linkage design  could produce
something closer to the ideal up-along-down action of a round pin.


 

Mike 

[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 02:59:13 +0000, you wrote:

>Hey Peter, yea that motor speed is not ideal. I am away from my computer
>right now but when I get back ill send some links to some alternate motors
>I found. I think the ticket will be the tiny gear head motors that are all
>over eBay. I picked up some 100 and some 60 rpm ones that are really strong
>for a few bucks. Had forgotten about that till your message reminded me :)

You don't want it too strong though - if the tape jams, you want it to stall (ideally with
detection) rather than tear the tape up.

[Michael Anton]

That's the same motor I'm planning to use for my current design.

Mike

[Michael Anton]

I would want to limit the current to the motor, which would do a good job of limiting the torque.  Probably a PWM drive to the motor, with a current sense would work pretty good, since we should be able to detect stalls using that combination.

Mike

[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 07:20:57 +0200, you wrote:

>Even if is off topic I like the simplicity of smd-taxi.ru feeders
>
>https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smdtaxi.ru
>
>I think that this is more clear :
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8PXKQUdgVc
>

that's neat - having the levers is a nice improvement on the head-mounted pin used by the cheaper
Chinese units as it's significantly quicker.
You could also imagine a powered version of exactly the same design using a solenoid or motor+cam
arrangement under the tape.

I suspect there may be some work in getting the spring -end shape right though. Would be cheap to do
in small-scale production using an automatic wire bender, but hard to do consistently by hand. may
also need some finishing to get the profile of the cut end right.

[Daniel Dumitru]

I am considering a combination of this feeder and a motor that goes and push what feeder it's needed.  SImilar with a printed gear feeder that has presented before on group.

I will try to draw it on Fusion 360 (would be a good start to learn)

This video it's even more clear about it :

https://youtu.be/h76H2AXVK5I

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[SMdude]

Have you seen the feeder method used by the smallsmt machines?
I like the fact that you only need one actuator to do a whole row of tape feeders, so this would be much cheaper than building individual feeders. Then your feeder limit is the size of your machine. Then you are free to mount any width tape you like providing the feeder is set up the right way.

The thing I don't like about the small smt design is the length of cover tape you need to remove before you can feed it through the peeler.

It would be good if the peeler could be close to the peel point. And also use the movement of the tape to actuate the peel at the same time. The peel peels at 1:1 with the tape so a couple of rollers could be used to transfer drive from the tape to peeler??

Mick

[Mike Harrison]

>The thing I don't like about the small smt design is the length of cover
>tape you need to remove before you can feed it through the peeler.

It is quick and easy to splice cover tapes with 4mm double-sided tape, so not a big deal - you just
splice onto the previous cover tape.

>It would be good if the peeler could be close to the peel point. And also
>use the movement of the tape to actuate the peel at the same time. The peel
>peels at 1:1 with the tape so a couple of rollers could be used to transfer
>drive from the tape to peeler??

I think you want very slighly more than 1:1, with a friction clutch, as if you do 1:1 any stretch in
the cover tape means you lose tension. It also makes it easier to take up the last bit of slack when
loading a new tape.

[SMdude]

Thanks Mike,
good idea with the tape splice ;)

I guess in that case the friction clutch bank on a single motor is probably not a bad thing as it keeps parts down.
Has anybody seen a supplier for the peel mechanism as seen on many of the Chinese PnP's including the smallsmt?

Mick

[FredG]

Maybe this image helps to understand: http://www.smd-taxi.ru/#!undefined/zoom/c1dmp/dataItem-iek0ebvt

[Malte R.]

Wow, thanks for the pointer to smd-taxi.ru - amazing machine.

The feeders are so simple - yet very effective!

The cover-tape is pulled back by a rubber roller driven by a stepper - see here:
https://youtu.be/cBqxMh1HpCA?t=1m30s

I think with the right amount of pressure, the cover tapes of the other part tapes locked in position will slip and the one where the part tape moved will be pulled. Seems to work?

Those feeders reminded me of Karl's approach - in case you have not seen it:
https://vimeo.com/144454867

[Daniel Dumitru]

not to mention that this guy it's ​measuring values of resistors while placement. Not hard to implement but just as comment... since had machine working a long time ago ...

[Malte R.]

not to mention that this guy it's ​measuring values of resistors while placement.

Cool if you have loose parts; not really necessary if placing from tape & reel though?

For pulling the cover tape, I like SmallSMT's design:
http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/vision-placer-vp-2x00d/

Very similar with a beefy stepper moving the hole array of gears; only I think that the spring loaded plastic gears provide better guidance to the cover tape and allow to adjust "slipping" moment / torque per lane.

Should be possible to 3D-print these.

This in combination with the lever-design from Russia would serve most of my SMT feeder needs already.

So many ideas, so little time :-P

Great discussion here, by the way.

[FredG]

My idea was to use these worm gear micro motors with encoder wheel soldered on a PCB board with all the electronics (including controller and pogo pins). This board is shaped and designed to be one side (left) of the feeder. The other side is a 3d printed shell with the corresponding width.

The motor has holes and a wheel for photomicrosensors like GP1S196HCZ0F and it drives the sprocket and a gear for the cover tape.

If anybody wants to pick up the idea here is my 3D file of the motor. (gear ratio is 123:1)

Manfred

[Rich Obermeyer]

For the resistor measurement I was thinking of verifying the correct reel is present before placing the parts all over the board.  From the video they appear to be checking each of the large resistors before placement.  Slows it down a lot from the demo.

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[DAniel Dumitru]

Testing at beginning if correct reel makes sense and could be implemented easy.

Probably he is testing large resistors since most likely he bought some extremely cheap with large tolerances..

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[Malte R.]

OK, that makes sense. IMHO the resistor checking is not the "killer feature" here but the mechanical feeders are promising :-)

I will try to replicate what that guy showed in his video. I plan to use 3D-printed base (to also support embossed tapes) and lever + pin milled from aluminium for now; will likely change to laser cut stainless steel once I get the design right and want to make multiple.

Instead of rubber bands I intend to use metal springs to keep the pin head down and return the lever / advance the tape.

For pulling the tape, I will go along with SmallSMT design - an array of 3D printed plastic gears driven by a single stepper - see here:

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=origxorig:format=jpg/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/i1be459d2c50f1568/version/1442096233/pick-and-place-machine-feeder-peel-of-tape-autosmt-smd-best%C3%BCckungsautomat-smd-best%C3%BCckungsmaschine.jpg

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/i5f8ddb43300da418/version/1442068741/image.png

I also like their reel holder:

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s83b2f87d67b6ff32/image/i72feb9df0d46e87e/version/1456341172/image.jpg

[Graeme Bridge]

I have that same LCR meter and it looks like it could be checking tolerance as thats an option on that meter rather than say the value.

Agreed its a cool feature though 

[Rich Obermeyer]

Tolerance makes less sense considering the extra time it takes for that meter to settle.  Not thinking too many people would be using their PNP machine for screening parts.  Checking that the resistor, capacitor, diode or inductor came off the right reel at the first use could be useful.  Or putting a diode or LED in with right orientation could save the day.  With part markings getting less convenient to identify one part from another without checking with meter it can be useful.

Agreed it's not the next PNP savior.  But it would be nice.  It can also be done at setup by the user before each build.

Wondering how good a connection the component gets on that measuring block?  Aren't most nozzles conductive if they don't have plastic vacuum tip?

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[Peter Betz]

Got the motor modeled up. I think I am going to try a pinion gear to keep the motor at 90 degrees to the shaft:

[Graeme Bridge]

Peter,

Did you see the part FredG posted up? it looks like what your talking about just need to interface a pinion gear to the motor setup

Graeme

[Jason von Nieda]

Looking good Peter. Did you happen to have one of those motors to measure, or did you find specs? If you need any additional specs on it, let me know. I can measure the ones I have.

Jason

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:47 AM Peter Betz <betzt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Got the motor modeled up. I think I am going to try a pinion gear to keep the motor at 90 degrees to the shaft:

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[Peter Betz]

Graeme : I will have a look and see, thanks !

Jason: there were specs on that listing but incomplete. I found them on another listing with the full specs. Only thing I couldn't figure out was the diameter of the mounting holes in the front. I am guessing about 1mm ?

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Jason von Nieda]

Looks like they may be M1.6 or M1.7. The screw's outer diameter is 1.67mm. I don't have anything that small to check with, but I do have an M2 screw and that is too big.

Jason

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[Michael Anton]

M1.6 screws thread in nicely on the one I have.  I don't have M1.7 to try.

Mike

[Michael Anton]

Here is the data sheet that I found, that seems to match the motor I have pretty well.

Mike

[Jason von Nieda]

That looks like the one. Nice find!

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[Peter Betz]

Yes for sure, that one is more helpful !!

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Peter Betz]

Hello again,

 So, the bevel gear idea didn't seem like it would save much room and was turning out to be a real pain. So I added some spur gears (Thinking 3D print) and turned the motor to be perpendicular.

The question is, is 45mm wide a deal breaker?

Assuming yes, Maybe someone can help with bevel gears or maybe a different motor?

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Peter,

45mm wide is pretty darn wide, to be honest. 

Why not a worm gear like I originally suggested? There are tons for cheap on eBay http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=brass+worm+gear&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.Xmetal+worm+gear.TRS1&_nkw=metal+worm+gear&_sacat=0

Jason

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[Peter Betz]

I just don't think I want to have to source gears to build it. 

This might actually be a good solution:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/DC-1v-5v-Worm-Gear-Motor-Variable-Speed-Gearmotor-micro-reduction-gear-box-W-/221856712242?nav=SEARCH

A slot could be cut right into the tape gear. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Michael Anton]

I'm in the process of changing my design to use one of the cheap Chinese worm gears, a 48 tooth gear, and the N20 gear head motor.  I have a couple of laser cut sprockets with 32 teeth, so with the 48 tooth gear, it takes 1.5 motor turns to advance the tape 4mm.  Alas, my motor is only 30 RPM, so this means 3 seconds, but faster motors are available.  I'd like to have this with a minimum advance time of say 1 second, that could be extended slightly by ramping the speed down towards the end, to not jar components.  So far, it looks like the most promising solution I've had so far, and it should be fairly compact.  The two gears I'm using can be found all over ebay, and aliexpress, and the pair of them cost about $0.40.  Luckily, I happen to have samples of both already.

I'm shooting for a feeder width of no more than 12mm, but it will likely be closer to 11mm.  Doing much better than this would be difficult, since the motor is 10mm thick, and the tape worst case is 8.3mm.

Mike

[Michael Anton]

I have a bunch of those motors, and I planned to put it inside the sprocket hub (I actually have the design of the sprocket completed).  Alas, this makes the sprocket something like 55mm in diameter, which is pretty big.  It might work, but I worry that the motor may not have enough torque when the load is applied that far from the motor shaft.  Let's just say that the design was getting more difficult as time went on, but the worm gear approach looks to have more promise.

Mike

[Peter Betz]

Ok,

 Working on a simple worm gear design... not fun.

Does someone want to try printing this little worm gear for me to see if it will work??? I am out of town right now.

STL attached. I would suggest adding brim if you have the option.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

On it! Firing up the printer now.

Jason

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[Peter Betz]

Thanks Jason!

It is quite small so it will be interesting to see how (if) the features turn out.....

[Jason von Nieda]

Turned out pretty good, I'd say! Looks like it would do the trick. If you can send me the STL for the mating gear I'll print that too and see how well they mesh.

Here's some pictures of it. I used black ABS so it's a little hard to capture detail, and honestly I think it looks better in person than it does in these pictures.

https://imgur.com/a/FftU2

Jason

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 10:24 PM Peter Betz <betzt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Jason!

It is quite small so it will be interesting to see how (if) the features turn out.....

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[Peter Betz]

Great!

Yes the pictures don't look the best, but I am glad to hear you think they would be functional. That gear would go on the motor shaft. Is there a flat on the shaft?

Attached is the other gear. It isn't a fancy fit, technically all the slots should be at an angle but I'm hoping that wouldn't be required.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Yep, there is a flat on the shaft. I'm printing the mating gear now and just mounted the worm to the motor. Will report back when the other gear is ready and see if I can get them to go :)

Jason

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[Jason von Nieda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuwJ_Z9AOY&feature=youtu.be

Video speaks for itself, I think!

Jason

[Peter Betz]

Hey that looks pretty good !!  I like the RPM too. 

Thanks for taking the time to do this Jason. I have the most time to do this stuff on the road so now I will continue integrating this system into the feeder design.

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Jason von Nieda]

Glad I could help, and thanks for working on this!

I think it really looks pretty solid. Who knows how well it will wear but I think we can prototype with this and probably very likely use it for some work. And if the design proves out it will be easy enough to get the worms and gears.

Jason

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[FredG]

just curious about the size of parts you're planning to use this feeders for. Seems to be a lot of effort for the precision you will get...

As I mentioned earlier there are motors like this:

worm gear is already included, they have a codewheel for an encoder, is just 6.5mm wide, costs almost nothing (and I've already drawn it in fusion360 :-))

Manfred

[Graeme Bridge]

I was wondering the very same thing

[Michael Anton]

Have you found a mating gear for that one yet?  I have some as well, and the gear is pretty fine pitch.

Mike

[FredG]

The gear in the motor has OD=6.3mm and N=16 teeth -> 6.3/(16+2)=0.35 -> module m=0.35
Center distance of the axes is 5mm so I came to a pinion with N=12 teeth, module m=0.35

These dimensions should fit but I have not tested it at the moment...

Manfred

[Peter Betz]

I sure did think about that, and I wasn't liking what was going to be required for gearing, and shafting. The motor is great and you would end up with a thinner design for sure but I want to go with a design where you don't want to have to source several pre made gears. 

As far as precision, mine will be perfectly precise, as there will be an opto sensor on the laser cut sprocket driving the tape. I am thinking that I will design that right on to the board with the other electronics for the feeder. I'm not sure if it will work out but I'm also hoping the motor could solder directly on to the board too so we won't need wires but the odds of that working isn't super great. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Peter Betz]

Here is the rough placement. More to come tonight:

[Mark Harris]

I really like the look of the motors that Manfred linked, and several others from that vendor - i'm wondering if I can cnc mill some gear moulds for them and cast from urethane - should have vastly superior tolerances and strength to 3d print, and the convenience of the whole gear being integrated vs a laser cut gear. Plus with moulds you can make as many gears per minute as you have moulds for :)

On 22 March 2016 at 08:47, Peter Betz <betzt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is the rough placement. More to come tonight:

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[Jason von Nieda]

My concern with those motors is that they look like they were made for some product, and either recycled or just cast off as new old stock. I'd be worried they could disappear overnight when the stock runs out. I prefer to stick to common, multi-source parts for my designs so that I don't spend a bunch of time and energy developing something just to have it disappear.

Jason

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[Mark Harris]

You'd be surprised how long things are available for... when I was working at Solarbotics they kept finding new sources for a motor/gear kit from a cassette player that was phased out in the 90's for one of their kits. Personally I'd prefer to have something working really nicely now and then find in 5 years time I have to redesign it than putting in a very large amount of engineering time now for what is likely to be a more expensive and lower quality kit - plus i dont have to deal with building a fiddly worm drive ;)

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[Graeme Bridge]

asking the vendor what the stock is could be an easy solution, if he says 10,000+ i doubt this going to go quickly

[Peter Betz]

I like all the discussion. I will be sticking with this direction (worm gear etc) for the sake of moving forward. Jason has already demonstrated this seems like a perfectly acceptable solution, one drawback is the width, we will be around 20mm I am thinking. I am excited to see what others come up with using other motors etc, like Graeme. 

Just like the head, this feeder will not be for everyone, and the reason for this thread is to get and use everyone's feedback, so keep it coming. 

This will hopefully be a bit of bridging platform. I want to have onboard microcontroller, motor control, and CAN or 485 controller (we will narrow that down later ). 

I would like to make something for the head at the same time as Jason suggested. Onboard 4 stepper drivers, micro and network onboard on the head. This will be a step towards that I think. 

Keep it all coming !

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[FredG]

I tried to stop the gear with my finger nail and was not able at 5V. So the motors have a good amount of power. Maybe a metal gear is the better choice as we have the torque of the big wheel (the sprocket) on one or two teeth of the small gear. I'll check my local gear manufacturer (here in Austria) for 100pcs made of brass or aluminium.

@ Mark: it should be easy to print a mould for 10 gears in a Form1 high resolution printer for testing... 

@ Peter: I'm with your philosophy of making things but it may be easier when you want to build 20 or more feeders to by custom made parts like a small gear. For instance you can't use a 3d printed sprocket and have to laser cut it...

[Peter Betz]

You will see how I am linking the laser cut sprocket with the printed one(s) tonight.

To keep things straight, why don't you guys start a thread for a feeder using that other motor ? Sounds like a cool idea for sure. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Michael Anton]

I agree, but this can be mitigated.  These are so cheap, that I would just do a lifetime buy of a couple of thousand and sell them to the community.  Then at least we know we have a locked up source for awhile.

Mike

[Peter Betz]

More progress:

The three M2 screws will hold the radial worm gear, laser cut sprocket and tape winder gear together. The tape winder gear would be tapped.

Obviously still just a rough idea. I think I have to make the radial worm gear smaller to allow for deeper tape parts. Right now it would be good for 7mm, I think Anthony was aiming for 8mm tape depth. What do people think about that ??

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Looking good Peter. 8mm sounds good to me. The largest thing I've got in stock is a cap that is 6.42mm tall. I have not worked with nearly as many different parts as some of you all, though, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

Jason

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[Michael Anton]

A tape depth of 8mm covers tape widths of 8mm through 16mm according to the standard, which would probably be ok for most of what people would use.  If you wanted to accommodate even wider tapes, you could make the sprocket larger.  Note that by 32mm wide, the bend radius increases to 50mm, so you might need a bigger sprocket anyhow.

The tallest I've ever run is 10.2mm for some electrolytic capacitors.

Mike

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 12:41:15 AM UTC-6, Jason von Nieda wrote:

Looking good Peter. 8mm sounds good to me. The largest thing I've got in stock is a cap that is 6.42mm tall. I have not worked with nearly as many different parts as some of you all, though, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

Jason

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:20 PM Peter Betz <betzt...@gmail.com> wrote:

More progress:

The three M2 screws will hold the radial worm gear, laser cut sprocket and tape winder gear together. The tape winder gear would be tapped.

[Peter Betz]

Thanks Mike, that's very helpful. 

I am trying to think about our limits for height and fitting on the machine. Still trying to visualize that. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Anthony Webb]

I think the feeder holders we built have 8.7mm clearance.  I am assuming the various tape widths would be accommodated via a precision shim of sorts?  Progress is looking great, looking forward to see it in action.

[Michael Anton]

You might find this spreadsheet useful.  I use it to drive the parameters for my feeders.

Mike

[Peter Betz]

Thanks for posting that Michael.

I was just on Robotdiggs site and saw this little guy. I have some more Juki nozzles coming from them so I have asked for detailed information and maybe I will grab 10 or so of them. I thinking there is some promise here with these to simplify the feeder.

I wouldn't mind starting over because I have to redesign the worm and mating gear because that is what is limiting the part tape depth (aside from just making the sprocket larger, which I don't want to do). This motor would eliminate the need for the worm, and potentially any other mating gears to drive the sprocket.....

Peter.

[Ray Kholodovsky]

That's the generic "gear motor" that you'll find on aliexpress for a few bucks.  Knockoff of what pololu has been selling for years: https://www.pololu.com/product/1121  Note the different gear count. 

[Michael Anton]

I would say you don't have to worry about tape depth until the feeder gets pretty wide, and at that point, one of these new motors wouldn't even impact the width, because there would be lots of width available.

I haven't found any combination of existing motors that work for keeping the feeder very narrow (12.5mm or less), without having to do some fancy gearing.  So, having accepted that, it is not too difficult to come up with something that will work, but I have different goals than you do, and I am prepared to source gears...

Mike

[Mark Harris]

Peter, you might want to try Solarbotics too - they have much higher quality motors than the aliexpress ones, despite looking very similar:

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[Mark Harris]

sigh.. wrong key combo sent the email too soon;)

https://solarbotics.com/catalog/motors-servos/gear-motors/

Located here in Calgary, so shipping should be very quick to you!

[Peter Betz]

That's a cool site !

So those motors are 23mm wide. Obviously that's not very ideal. Would people be happy with a 30mm wide feeder in order to have a simple design and high quality motor with built in safety clutch ??? 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2016 07:12:27 -0700, you wrote:

>That's a cool site !
>
>So those motors are 23mm wide. Obviously that's not very ideal. Would people be happy with a 30mm wide feeder in order to have a simple design and high quality motor with built in safety clutch ???

Only if it was a 30mm feeder that could be two lanes of 8mm or one of 12,16 or 24

[Mark Harris]

Yeah they are a really awesome group of people - and they are very supportive of the maker community both locally and internationally. I've asked if they have any ideas for a smaller motor, perhaps one of their suppliers has something. I like to support them wherever possible rather than the aliexpress/ebay stores that care nothing for us makers or the quality of their products.

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[FredG]

Sorry Peter for hijacking your thread but I promise it's my last post here...

just want to let the other readers know: I found a pinion for my small motor and mated it with a 30mm sprocket. It even moves to fast at 1,5V. More reduction gear is necessary.

My next thoughts: when i was looking for 0.35 module gear I found a lot 0.4 module gears and also thin stepper motors with 0.4 module gear included. Maybe this is a way to go...

Manfred

[Peter Betz]

Hi Manfred!

I think I was misunderstood. Please keep posting here. 

Can you post links or post pictures of the parts ?

I think I might be starting over so I am completely open to new ideas. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Michael Anton]

Manfred,

Can you post a link to that pinion gear?  I have some of those motors, and I'd like to try them.

Thanks,

Mike

[Mark Harris]

I dropped by solarbotics today, and I have borrowed one obsolete feeder and one feeder that broke... anyone interested in a tear down? These are for a Quad machine.

As an interesting point for people pushing for thinner feeders, the 8mm tape feeders I have here are 20.1mm wide

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[FredG]

I found it in my scrap box (can't send you a link :-)). It's from an old CD/DVD drive (or scanner) with OD 4.7mm and 10 Teeth. This is module 0.4 and not perfectly fitting but good enough for testing...

[FredG]

I'm still searching but here are some candidates:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2pcs-4-phase-5-wire-0-4-module-With-gear-thin-stepper-motor-for-NMB-free/32599285518.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-Best-price-and-high-quality-DC-12V-2-Phase-4-Wire-Gear-Stepper-Motor-Full/32463962250.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC6V-For-Panasonic-15FBNA1-Stepper-Gear-Motor-for-Automation-Equipment/32394932698.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10PCS-LOT-5V-4-phase-5-wire-stepper-motor-gear-motor-28BYJ-48-5V/1307161367.html

[Anthony Webb]

That first link Fred posted looks like a great option. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Michael Anton]

It likely won't have enough torque, at only 25mm in diameter.  Max torque according to the datasheet from here: http://www.nmb-minebea.de/pdf/motors/PM25S024.pdf, is 1.4 inoz.  Also, the steps are pretty coarse at 15 degrees, and I'm not sure how well motors like this microstep.  If the part number on the motors pictured is correct, those are really 24V motors, not 5V as indicated by the listing.

I have a bunch of really small steppers that I picked up to try to make thin feeders, and I suspect that none of them would work, unless a lot of gearing was used.  So, it just makes sense to start with a gear head motor in my opinion.  By the time you find a pancake style stepper of sufficient diameter to turn the sprocket, it will usually cost $30+, which to me seems like a lot for just the motor.  If only there were a small stepper that had lots of torque, and was cheap like a Reprap stepper...

I have a design coming along nicely that is 11mm wide for 8mm tape, though I think I will round that up to 12mm.  Since the tape increases in width in 4mm increments (at the bottom end at any rate), it makes sense to me to be able to install feeders on 4mm boundaries, so that one can mix and match widths easily, so perhaps given that, it doesn't make much sense to shoot for a width under 12mm (other than for a little clearance between feeders).  When I get a little further along with the design, I'll post some details, but I want to work out the cover tape spooling before I do that.

Mike

[Anthony Webb]

Mike what motor are you using to get it down to 12 mm?

Sent from my iPhone

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[Michael Anton]

The same gear head N20 motor that Peter is using.  These are only 10mm thick, and very small for the huge amount of torque they offer.  They also seem very ruggedly built, so that should help with reliability.  The downside, is that the drive axis needs to be rotated by 90 degrees, but so far that seems possible, without too much difficulty.

Mike